/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-27 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Apr 27 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:05] <jgraham> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/html5view.html (this is very much unpolished)
# [00:05] <jgraham> (and probably very buggy)
# [00:08] <zcorpan> no type=url?
# [00:08] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-a35b18b0ce2846a0) ("The computer fell asleep")
# [00:09] <jgraham> zcorpan: Did I not say unpolished ;)
# [00:09] <zcorpan> you did :)
# [00:09] <Philip`> Hmm, I guess google.com is a bad page to try it on, since it has an extra link (Scholar) in the top one...
# [00:10] <Philip`> yahoo.com is bad too since they ask html5lib to upgrade to a newer browser
# [00:11] <zcorpan> got an error for http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/w3c-home-in-html5
# [00:12] <jgraham> So I guess UA spoofing would help...
# [00:12] <Philip`> And microsoft.com seems to generate no response from the lower window :-(
# [00:13] <jgraham> zcorpan: Known bug in html5lib. Hixie hasn't specced what to do with <header> and other new tags yet...
# [00:13] * moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju
# [00:13] <zcorpan> jgraham: aren't they covered by "anything else" then?
# [00:13] <Philip`> msdn.microsoft.com causes "<type 'exceptions.UnicodeEncodeError'>: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u222b' in position 217: ordinal not in range(128) "%(value, node.attributes[key]) UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u222b' in position 217: ordinal not in range(128) -->"
# [00:13] <zcorpan> (for now, that is)
# [00:13] <bewest> jgraham: is this just two iframes?
# [00:14] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@client-82-27-228-178.brnt.adsl.virgin.net) ("coma")
# [00:14] <Philip`> Oops, the latter half of the error is caused by printing the traceback unescaped when it contains a line "print ""%(value, node.attributes[key])"
# [00:15] <jgraham> bewest: Yeah two iframes. However the html5lib frame has to build up the DOM using js to avoid browser parsing errors
# [00:15] <bewest> ah
# [00:16] <zcorpan> jgraham: or use xhtml5? although i guess that won't work in ie :)
# [00:16] <bewest> so it renders a tree constructed using html5 rules in the browser?
# [00:16] <jgraham> s/errors/oddities/
# [00:16] <jgraham> bewest: Yeah, that's the idea
# [00:18] <jgraham> Hmm. Clearly I need to work on I18n
# [00:18] <Philip`> w3.org looks different in the two - is this a quirks vs standards issue?
# [00:18] <Philip`> (The spacing around the logo and between some lines is different)
# [00:18] <bewest> ah... it makes sense when I hit the url from the command line
# [00:19] <bewest> that loadom=1 is insane
# [00:19] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-95a16b67502d5221)
# [00:19] * Joins: fax_machine (n=fax_mach@74-129-102-1.dhcp.insightbb.com)
# [00:20] <bewest> oh loaddom=1
# [00:21] <jgraham> Philip`: possibly. Firefox has helpfully taken the rendering mode out of the page info dialog...
# [00:21] <bewest> jgraham: why show the rendered version? from the initial description I thought it would show a comparative visualization of the two trees as opposed to a rendering of them
# [00:21] <zcorpan> it is
# [00:21] <bewest> hmmmm
# [00:23] <zcorpan> jgraham: the second iframe should probably either always use <!doctype html> or use the same prolog as the input document
# [00:23] <jgraham> bewest: http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/parsetree.html almost does what you want (it shows the html5 tree which you can compare with the live DOM viewer)
# [00:23] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, I hadn't noticed they'd changed that, but it does like quite <sarcasm>helpful</sarcasm> now
# [00:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: It should keep the same doctype (but obviously doesn't)
# [00:26] <bewest> jgraham: nifty
# [00:27] <Philip`> Looks like it adds <!DOCTYPE HTML> for HTML 4.01 pages, but not for XHTML pages (or at least ones with <?xml ...?>)
# [00:28] <Philip`> (Doctype sniffing sounds like fun - let's do more of it!)
# [00:30] * zcorpan wonders if he should have a third set of tests -- html in quirks mode
# [00:31] <zcorpan> and almost standards mode? man, all these modes makes creating test cases trivial indeed
# [00:31] <zcorpan> let's introduce more rendering modes while we're at it
# [00:33] * zcorpan will try to get the "almost" and "full" modes merged, i.e. get the "almost" mode specced in css21
# [00:33] <zcorpan> wish me luck
# [00:33] <Hixie> we will shortly be getting more rendering modes!
# [00:33] <zcorpan> yay! :(
# [00:35] <othermaciej> ah, rendering modes
# [00:36] <zcorpan> i wish there was only quirks mode
# [00:36] <Hixie> i wish there was only one mode and it matched the specs
# [00:37] <zcorpan> me too, which effectively means the specs should have adopted to quirks mode a few years back
# [00:40] <zcorpan> i'll aim to merge almost and full, and reduce the number of html vs xhtml differences to a minimum, and then spec quirks... i have no idea what to do with whatever ms comes up with
# [00:40] <zcorpan> hopefully other vendors won't have to implement new modes
# [00:41] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
# [00:47] <Hixie> hopefully
# [00:48] <zcorpan> and hopefully the web will use new features in quirks mode and "html4-mode" so ms have to implement them there as well :)
# [00:50] <zcorpan> not that i think it will affect them, i mean most authors have to make it work in current IEs somehow (so long as they are majority vendor anyway)
# [00:50] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [00:51] <othermaciej> Chris Wilson is definitely giving other vendors a lot more motive to reduce IE market share
# [00:51] <Hixie> in a "win or die" kind of way, yeah
# [00:53] <Philip`> zcorpan: People using SVG or canvas today don't seem to worry much about making it work in current IEs
# [00:53] * Hixie comes across an old thread where someone is asking for something, an xforms person replies with "xforms can do that!", and the original commentor dismisses that as being irrelevant to web browsers
# [00:53] <Philip`> though there aren't exactly many of those people
# [00:53] <Hixie> not one of the usual suspects, either
# [00:54] <zcorpan> Philip`: it's possible to make both work in ie using script
# [00:54] <zcorpan> i.e., "work"
# [00:56] <zcorpan> to address the xslt use-case, we should make the html4 strict doctype conforming :)
# [00:57] <zcorpan> (and perhaps xhtml1 strict too)
# [00:57] <Hixie> wow, we basically hit almost everything on this list: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/oldnews/pages/June2004.html
# [00:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [01:00] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
# [01:00] * jdandrea reads the 17 June 2004 entry - ha-HA! Nice.
# [01:01] <othermaciej> nice :-)
# [01:01] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
# [01:01] <othermaciej> can datagrid be used as a tree/outline view?
# [01:01] <Hixie> yeah
# [01:02] <othermaciej> compressed JS can already be done via http 1.1
# [01:02] <othermaciej> (trying to find what is missing)
# [01:02] <Hixie> modal dialogs are missing
# [01:02] <Hixie> but that's intentional
# [01:02] <bewest> not sure why he wants... yeah exactly
# [01:02] <jdandrea> (See also the 25 June 2004 entry with quotes from Brendan Eich and hixie!)
# [01:02] <Hixie> contentEditable isn't perfect, but that's hard to do, i don't know what else to do about it
# [01:02] <bewest> why would we want a modal windowing model on the web?
# [01:04] <Philip`> (If datagrid is for trees, could it do something like the 'expand' links in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/, maybe with some scripting/styling? Er, I should probably read it myself some time to see...)
# [01:05] <Hixie> i don't think it trivially does that, no
# [01:05] <Hixie> it only supports showing all or nothing at a particular node and level
# [01:13] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/ -- are there any cases i'm missing for body-magicness wrt background-color in html?
# [01:15] * Quits: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net) ("ciao")
# [01:19] <zcorpan> oh yes, a body that is not child of root
# [01:23] <othermaciej> I have an increasingly hard time understanding anything David P. Dailey says
# [01:23] * bewest too
# [01:26] <zcorpan> "and must not paint a background for that BODY element" -- guess i have to make the HEAD visible and position it behind the BODY to test this (without using background-image that is)
# [01:27] * Quits: h3h (n=h3h@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) ("|")
# [01:29] <Dashiva> The www-html noise is still going? Wow
# [01:30] * zcorpan has unchecked the "check for new messages every [5__] minutes" option
# [01:53] <Hixie> wow, now we have people claiming XForms is an HTML language
# [02:07] * Quits: Voluminous (n=Volumino@unaffiliated/voluminous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [02:11] <kingryan> Hixie: it *does* have angle brackets, so they *must* be compatible
# [02:11] <kingryan> right?
# [02:12] <zcorpan> it has *more* angle brackets... and it is xml... so it must also be more semantic
# [02:12] <zcorpan> and free of bugs in implementations
# [02:13] <Dashiva> They're both *ML
# [02:13] <kingryan> ...and easy to parse (there'll be libraries!) and it will save kittens
# [02:13] <zcorpan> and all XForms on the web will be conforming
# [02:13] * Quits: welly (n=george@spc1-harg2-0-0-cust244.seac.broadband.ntl.com)
# [02:14] <zcorpan> mobile-friendly!
# [02:14] <zcorpan> poor mobiles can't afford to parse old HTML forms
# [02:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: better yet, we have people claiming that it is ok for a spec to tell you how to process a model, but not how to choose the components that go into that model
# [02:16] <zcorpan> or perhaps xforms advocates don't talk about mobiles?
# [02:16] * Hixie sighs as more xforms FUD is sent to the public-html list
# [02:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes, that entire e-mail was baffling to me
# [02:16] <othermaciej> I hope that claim is mistaken
# [02:16] <othermaciej> otherwise XForms is worse than I thought
# [02:17] <Hixie> certainly the claim that xforms is ok in text/html is completely bogus
# [02:17] <othermaciej> but it works in IE in his plugin!
# [02:17] * zcorpan goes back to focus on creating test cases
# [02:18] <Hixie> mark has been defending it for years, i don't know if he even realises how far from the standards we consider that
# [02:20] <othermaciej> well, apparently he thinks standards are grab bags of ideas to use as building blocks
# [02:20] <Hixie> then why be so anti-wf2?
# [02:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: so in bug 3958, support for showModalDialog was added to webkit. Should it be in the spec?
# [02:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: we added it at the request of a specific vendor, they make some enterprise app which has a web interface (generally used on intranet sites)
# [02:24] <othermaciej> I don't know of significant use on the public web
# [02:24] <Hixie> k
# [02:24] <othermaciej> I don't know if Firefox has it
# [02:24] <Hixie> it doesn't to my knowledge
# [02:24] <Hixie> i'll leave it out for now then
# [02:24] <zcorpan> hmm, i will have about 8-10 tests for each of background-color, background-image, and overflow, then duplicated as XML (perhaps even duplicated again for quirks)... should i submit meta-bugs to vendors or separate bugs where they fail?
# [02:24] <othermaciej> it might be worth speccing anyway, but it's messy and hard to implement
# [02:25] <Hixie> oh?
# [02:25] <Hixie> normal nested event loop problem?
# [02:25] <Hixie> or worse?
# [02:26] <othermaciej> I'll look up the bug in our internal bug tracker
# [02:27] <othermaciej> I don't know how it would be for other engines, but in our case this is the only situation where a nested event loop is actually supposed to display web content, and it caused all sorts of quirks and bugs
# [02:27] <Hixie> ah interesting
# [02:27] <Hixie> makes sense
# [02:28] <othermaciej> Mozilla apparently has a window.open argument of "modal"
# [02:28] <Hixie> re-ally
# [02:28] <Hixie> interesting
# [02:28] * Hixie pokes
# [02:28] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-95a16b67502d5221) ("The computer fell asleep")
# [02:29] <othermaciej> apparently some chinese sites use it too
# [02:29] <othermaciej> or at least did a while ago
# [02:29] <othermaciej> this was cited as using it in 2003: http://www.dangdang.com
# [02:29] <Hixie> wouldn't surprise me
# [02:29] <othermaciej> it is apparently in some common shopping cart JS used in china
# [02:29] <Hixie> interesting
# [02:29] <Hixie> i wouldn't have any idea how to trigger it on that site
# [02:29] <othermaciej> 2) Go to the web site: http://www.dangdang.com
# [02:29] <othermaciej> 3) Change the text encoding to Simplified Chinese (Mac OS)
# [02:29] <othermaciej> 4) Click the button - buy
# [02:29] <othermaciej> * RESULTS
# [02:29] <othermaciej> Expected: the shoppingcart window will be opened in a new Safari window.
# [02:30] <Hixie> everything i click opens a new tab for me
# [02:33] <Hixie> i can't get modal to do anything magic in firefox
# [02:36] <Hixie> wow
# [02:36] <Hixie> showModalDialog() is really annoying in safari :-)
# [02:41] * Joins: polin8 (n=brian@ool-18b8cc06.dyn.optonline.net)
# [02:42] <kingryan> yeah, no resize, no address bar, no status bar
# [02:46] <Hixie> can't even interact with the window below it
# [02:46] <othermaciej> well, it's modal
# [02:46] <othermaciej> a modal dialog
# [02:46] <othermaciej> that's what modal dialogs do
# [02:47] <othermaciej> ok, I guess most don't block window dragging
# [02:47] <othermaciej> anyway, this was done as a checklist feature, not out of love
# [02:48] <Hixie> i bet
# [02:51] * Quits: polin8 (n=brian@ool-18b8cc06.dyn.optonline.net)
# [02:53] <Hixie> wow, showModalDialog is crazy
# [02:53] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
# [02:53] <Hixie> context menus don't work
# [02:53] <Hixie> the user can't touch the parent browsing context
# [02:53] <Hixie> selection doesn't work
# [02:53] <Hixie> links open in new windows
# [02:53] <Hixie> i'm amazed more sites aren't abusing this
# [02:53] <othermaciej> don't give them any ideas!
# [02:54] <Hixie> wow, mark's e-mail totally dodged the original question
# [02:55] <Hixie> he said something, he was asked to show a spec for it, he said something nonsensical, he was asked to clarify it, and he said something unrelated to the original question
# [02:55] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-1df7e624006f5b13)
# [02:56] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-66-75-149-197.san.res.rr.com)
# [02:56] <othermaciej> I was really confused by his messages
# [02:56] <Hixie> it's a kind of fud
# [02:56] <othermaciej> I couldn't tell if he was being evasive, or was just ignorant of fairly basic things
# [02:56] <Hixie> well, more like smokes and mirrors
# [02:57] <Hixie> hm, i hadn't considered that he might just be ignorant
# [02:57] <Hixie> i guess that's possible too
# [02:57] <othermaciej> I like to give the benefit of the doubt
# [02:58] <Hixie> me too but i guess i figured him being ignorant was what i was giving him the benefit of not being :-)
# [02:59] <othermaciej> fair enough
# [03:17] <Dashiva> Hixie: acid3 test 37 expects attribute node's .specified to be false after removeAttributeNode. I can't find anything about that in dom-3-core.
# [03:18] <zcorpan> wow, <html:body> actually is magic in opera again it seems: http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/background-color/001.xht
# [03:19] <Philip`> Would anyone happen to be able to look in a recent version of WebKit at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/radial/radial3.html and see if the left column is the same as http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/radial/webkit419.png ? (I'm hoping the behaviour hasn't changed in newer versions, else I'll be unhappy...)
# [03:19] <Hixie> Dashiva: um yeah, that's bogus
# [03:19] <Hixie> Dashiva: can you mail me a reminder?
# [03:19] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
# [03:19] <othermaciej> Lachy: I wish you hadn't encouraged Tina Holmboe to join the HTMLWG -- she might actually do it
# [03:19] <Hixie> that was me, i think
# [03:19] <Hixie> why don't we want her input?
# [03:19] <Hixie> some of what she said was quite useful
# [03:20] <othermaciej> you recommended it to someone else (Laura Carlson)
# [03:20] <bewest> she thinks the w3 is out to get her
# [03:20] <Lachy> othermaciej, sorry :-(
# [03:20] <othermaciej> she seems more disruptive than helpful
# [03:20] <bewest> wrt dropping mailing list subscriptions
# [03:20] <Dashiva> Hixie: done
# [03:20] <Hixie> thanks!
# [03:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: ah
# [03:21] <Hixie> well i meant to invite all of them :-)
# [03:21] <othermaciej> doesn't matter much, we have all sorts of random sources of disruption as it is
# [03:21] <Lachy> well, we don't want her input till after HTML5 is accepted by the HTMLWG, cause she'll object to including it
# [03:22] <Hixie> so i'm replying to this e-mail from sebastian
# [03:22] <bewest> careful... it's statements like those that objecters object to as evidence of who knows what
# [03:22] <Hixie> it ends with asking whether we want to migrate xforms over time, and says:
# [03:22] <othermaciej> oh good, then maybe I don't have to
# [03:22] <Hixie> > If the answer is yes, we have to think about an architectural strategy
# [03:22] <Hixie> > of introducing new features that have made XForms successful over time
# [03:23] <Hixie> > in HTML.
# [03:23] <othermaciej> ah yes, if only HTML could have as much success as XForms
# [03:23] <Lachy> I wonder what makes people think XForms has been successful
# [03:24] <Dashiva> I think that in the long run, it's better to get them in right away, so there can't be later arguments about "They snuck WA1.0 in before I could object" later
# [03:25] <Hixie> yeah
# [03:25] <Hixie> i agree
# [03:25] <othermaciej> I think the straw poll will carry in any case
# [03:25] <Hixie> also, people are more likely to stand up for you when tehy feel part of your clique
# [03:25] <Hixie> why do you think i invited you all to this channel?
# [03:25] * Hixie ducks
# [03:25] <Lachy> they've had since March 7 to join, I think 2 months is sufficient time and we can dismiss such arguments
# [03:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, we better not tell them about #whatwg-seeekrit
# [03:26] <othermaciej> ooops!
# [03:26] <Dashiva> #whatwg-secret-tree-house-no-patents-allowed
# [03:26] * Lachy joins that channel
# [03:28] <zcorpan> opera still differentiates between html and xhtml wrt to 'overflow' though
# [03:29] * Dashiva ponders typos
# [03:30] <Dashiva> Hixie: Typo in HIERARCHY (HIEARCHY) in test 35, sending you a new mail
# [03:31] <Hixie> thanks
# [03:32] <Dashiva> No wonder so many browsers were failing those two tests :)
# [03:33] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
# [03:34] <Hixie> can someone think of a technology that succeeded despite being incompatible with preceeding products when it came out?
# [03:34] <Dashiva> CDs?
# [03:34] <Philip`> Every programming language except C++?
# [03:35] <Dashiva> OS X, at least partially
# [03:35] <Hixie> people made tape-deck adapters with audio leads to connect cd players to tape players, and most hifi systems just took a cd player as an additional unit
# [03:35] <zcorpan> otoh, gecko doesn't differentiate between html and xhtml wrt 'overflow', which is nice
# [03:35] <Hixie> os x shipped with classic for years
# [03:35] <Hixie> programming languages all have cross-language shims
# [03:36] <bewest> what do you mean by incompatible
# [03:36] <bewest> and what is the scope of technology? :-)
# [03:36] <Philip`> HDMI with HDCP? (Not sure that counts as successful yet, though)
# [03:36] <Hixie> bewest: i guess those are good questions to which i don't really have answers
# [03:37] <Hixie> Philip`: screens with hdmi inputs have other inputs too (e.g. dvi or vga)
# [03:37] <bewest> does the wheel count?
# [03:37] <Dashiva> Nobody's mentioned XHTML2 yet
# [03:37] * Dashiva ducks
# [03:37] <Hixie> Dashiva: i said successful :-)
# [03:37] <Lachy> XForms!
# [03:38] <bewest> qwerty
# [03:38] <Lachy> oh, wait, do you mean *really* successful?
# [03:38] <zcorpan> quirks mode
# [03:38] <Hixie> bewest: how are wheels incompatible with what came before them?
# [03:38] <Hixie> Lachy: i guess
# [03:38] * Joins: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-4c7b097c3b539be2)
# [03:38] <Hixie> Lachy: i dunno, i'm just trying to work out if the argument that backwards compatible is a requirement to be successful is true
# [03:38] <bewest> dunno.. it was a bad joke
# [03:39] <bewest> qwerty was a more serious entry
# [03:39] <Philip`> Canned food?
# [03:39] <Lachy> what?
# [03:39] <Hixie> or if you can sidestep that requirement if the technology is suitably groundbreaking
# [03:39] <bewest> Hixie: there are some good books on this
# [03:39] <Dashiva> Hixie: I would say that if backwards compatability is required, and not provided, and the users cannot provide it...
# [03:39] <bewest> I just recommended one to tantek.. let me see if it's still on his wishlist
# [03:39] <Philip`> (Not sure if people put up with knives before they had compatible can openers, though)
# [03:39] <Hixie> bewest: i guess compatibility isn't required for ui, then, interesting
# [03:39] <Dashiva> Like the hifi example, users were able to work around it, even though the tech itself was incompatible
# [03:40] <Hixie> yeah
# [03:40] <Hixie> hmm
# [03:40] <Hixie> i guess also cds took a decade to take off
# [03:40] <Dashiva> Sort of like IE and other browsers :)
# [03:41] <Lachy> BitTorrent, which was incompatible with previous P2P networks, maybe
# [03:41] <Hixie> maybe
# [03:41] <Hixie> hm
# [03:41] <bewest> Hixie: http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Useful-Things-Artifacts-Zippers-Came/dp/0679740392/ref=sr_1_1/102-7106207-0155322?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177637884&sr=8-1
# [03:42] <Dashiva> You could argue the horde aspect of BT makes it a new market, not a replacement
# [03:43] <bewest> Hixie: anyway, the basic idea the author proposes is that technology always evolves by fixing problems and that because of this "form does not follow function"
# [03:43] <Hixie> ah
# [03:43] <Hixie> interesting
# [03:44] <Hixie> well thanks for the input. i've sent the e-mail now. :-)
# [03:44] <Hixie> i'm gonna go get some food
# [03:44] <bewest> (eg it took the zipper over 100 years to succeed)
# [03:45] <Lachy> really? When was it invented?
# [03:45] <bewest> it was started in the 1800's
# [03:45] <bewest> didn't hit critical mass till well into 1900's
# [03:46] <bewest> there were numerous problems
# [03:46] <bewest> it took 3 generations of dedicated inventors passionate about the future of zippers before they succeeded as a common fastening technology
# [03:48] <zcorpan> can someone check 001.htm and 001.xht in each of the folders of http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/ in webkit and say whether there is any difference between html and xhtml handling?
# [03:52] <Lachy> zcorpan, for background-*: the .xht files did not have green canvases
# [03:52] <Lachy> for overflow, the .xht one had scrollbars on the box
# [03:53] <zcorpan> Lachy: ok, thanks
# [03:55] <zcorpan> my swift filled the canvas for the .xht, but now swift doesn't seem to work anymore (until i reboot or something)
# [03:55] <othermaciej> so I have a question
# [03:55] <othermaciej> what does the phrase "tag soup" actually mean?
# [03:56] <othermaciej> I used to think it specifically meant noncomforming markup that relies on error handling and so works anyway
# [03:56] <othermaciej> but some people seem to use it in different ways, for example, referring to any non-XML markup or markup designs they don't like as "tag soup"
# [04:00] <Dashiva> Hixie: test 97 returns 1 on failure (success is 7). This makes the red box turn white, which does indicate failure, but it still causes score to increase, so the test will still display 100%!!!
# [04:00] <Dashiva> Intentional?
# [04:01] <Dashiva> Um, test 96, not 97.
# [04:04] * zcorpan has written 50 test cases (or 25x2) on body magicness, and calles it a day
# [04:04] <zcorpan> s/calles/calls/
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# [08:13] <MikeSmith> Lachy - about your "well, we don't want her input till after HTML5 is accepted by the HTMLWG, cause she'll object to including it" ...
# [08:13] <Lachy> that was a joke
# [08:14] <Lachy> not serious
# [08:14] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
# [08:15] <MikeSmith> but was going to say it wasn't clear from the context so might be good just to have it in the channel logs that is was
# [08:15] <MikeSmith> which it is now, so 'nuff said
# [08:15] <Lachy> ok
# [08:15] * mpt waves to those reading the channel logs
# [08:17] * MikeSmith hopes nobody takes seriously everything he says on IRC or even on mailing lists
# [08:18] <MikeSmith> I think maybe sarcasm and irony are pointless if you explicity mark them up as such
# [08:21] <annevk> dude, you were not serious about that panel at XTech? :p
# [08:23] <mpt> Maybe the channel topic should contain an unclosed <sarcasm> tag
# [08:23] <Lachy> yeah, that would work find till someone typed </sarcasm> in a message...
# [08:25] <annevk> http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/background-color/001.xht looks nice in Opera
# [08:25] <annevk> Lachy, <sarcasm> is like <plaintext> though
# [08:26] <annevk> with the difference that it does support nested elements, it just doesn't support an end tag
# [08:27] <Lachy> ah, ok. we should add a SARCASM value to the content model flag
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# [08:28] <annevk> it's not a tokenizing thingie
# [08:28] <MikeSmith> annevk - the panel at XTech is an exercise in
# [08:29] <annevk> we just ignore the end tag
# [08:29] <MikeSmith> surrealism
# [08:29] <annevk> in so far that HTML is surrealistic, sure
# [08:29] <annevk> besides ignoring the end tag, we probably have to ensure that nothing else can close it either
# [08:30] <Lachy> but how does it work with bad nesting? does it just keep getting reopened like unclosed inline elementts?
# [08:30] <annevk> yeah, it needs some more thought
# [08:38] <mpt> Make it part of the doctype
# [08:40] <Lachy> or <meta name=sarcasm value=true>
# [08:43] <othermaciej> explaining compatibility is frustrating
# [08:43] <othermaciej> it's like trying to prove to someone that 2 + 2 = 4
# [08:43] <othermaciej> it's so obvious that it is hard to explain
# [08:44] <mpt> 2 + 2 < 5
# [08:45] <Lachy> othermaciej, try using: if you have 2 apples and you buy another 2 apples, how many apples do you have?
# [08:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: it depends on what kind of apples!
# [08:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: what if two are granny smiths...
# [08:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: and two are MacBook Pros
# [08:47] <othermaciej> or what if I plant the seeds of one of the apples?
# [08:47] <Lachy> Apple Macs ofcourse
# [08:48] <Lachy> the question isn't how many apples can you grow
# [08:48] <Hixie> wait if i bury my mac i can get more?
# [08:49] <Lachy> if you have iLife, yes
# [08:50] <othermaciej> I think people don't understand that the set of documents HTML5 UAs must accept is considerably larger than the set of conforming HTML5 documents
# [08:51] <othermaciej> maybe this needs to be clarified more
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# [08:52] <Hixie> wait didn't i answer that before leaving work?
# [08:52] <Hixie> with the whole 93% of documents are syntactically non-conforming thing?
# [08:52] <Lachy> othermaciej, maybe Don't Reinvent the Wheel could talk about use cases instead. Something like, if an existing feature already solves some related problems/use cases, consider defining and/or enhancing that, instead of inventing something new
# [08:52] * Lachy is surprised 7% are conforming!
# [08:52] <Hixie> btw i recommend removing "break" from the page
# [08:53] <Hixie> say it the way the second sentence does
# [08:53] <Hixie> Lachy: i didn't say 7% were conformin
# [08:53] <Hixie> g
# [08:54] <Lachy> well, at least syntactically correct then
# [08:55] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm going to take your review comments into account
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# [08:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: I agree the second sentence is much more clear - I liked dbaron's punchy statement of the idea, but "Support Existing Content" or something dry like that seems much more ambiguous
# [08:59] <annevk> Lachy, I added an example to don't reinvent the wheel
# [08:59] <annevk> Lachy, contenteditable=
# [09:00] <othermaciej> I think talking about use cases is also a good idea
# [09:02] <annevk> heh, nice one hsivonen
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# [09:03] * annevk wasn't thinking in that direction
# [09:03] <hsivonen> annevk: you mean reinventing the wheel? what was your direction?
# [09:04] <Hixie> Lachy: well, that's just the 7% that my script didn't catch bugs on
# [09:04] <Hixie> i doubt many of them are fully conforming
# [09:04] <annevk> when I made the principle up it was more about new features for which UAs had already a solution which was widely used and known
# [09:04] <annevk> but this explanation fits as well, I think
# [09:05] <annevk> s/this/your/
# [09:05] * annevk should update his slides to say 93% as opposed to 95%...
# [09:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok, made changes per your comments
# [09:08] <Lachy> it'd be interesting to do a survey of 3 billion documents using tool based on hsivonen's checker (perhapsh when it's more mature and less buggy)
# [09:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think he means XForms in HTML rendering XForms Transitional redundant
# [09:08] <annevk> btw, saying that XForms in HTML wouldn't work is wrong
# [09:09] <annevk> defining some kind of parsing algorithm for specific elements could make it work
# [09:09] <annevk> the syntax would be slightly different, but it could probably be made to work
# [09:09] <annevk> such a design just fails to meet many of the design principles
# [09:10] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yeah, it seems to me, too, that XForms in text/html removes the premise of XForms Transitional
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# [09:12] <hsivonen> annevk: I think the most productive way forward would be making Web Forms 2.0 part of the HTML WG spec and extending the parsing algorithm to handle XForms in text/html without requiring UAs to actually implement XForms on top of the parser-produced DOM
# [09:13] <hsivonen> (and dropping XForms Transitional and not doing any Task Force stuff)
# [09:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: perhaps a more general namespaces-in-HTML thingie could cover that - though I'm highly ambivalent about such a thing
# [09:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: namespaces-in-HTML is such a recurring theme that perhaps it needs addressing
# [09:16] <othermaciej> I'm trying to come up with an example for "Media Independence"
# [09:16] <othermaciej> I have a negative example:
# [09:17] <hsivonen> either by speccing or documenting why the Opera attempt failed
# [09:17] <othermaciej> "A hyperlink can't be actuated in a printed document, but that is no reason to omit the <a> element."
# [09:17] <othermaciej> but I'd also like a positive one
# [09:17] <othermaciej> hsivonen: well, IE seems to have a sort of namespacing in HTML
# [09:17] <othermaciej> there's also XML Data Islands
# [09:17] <othermaciej> I wonder if we want to spec that
# [09:18] * othermaciej thinks "data island" is a hilarious mental image
# [09:18] <othermaciej> anyway, what's a decision made for reason of media/platform/device independence?
# [09:18] <othermaciej> ideally something new in HTML5, but doesn't have to be
# [09:19] <hsivonen> the general reflowability of HTML text
# [09:19] <hsivonen> do we have an aural default rendering suggestion for <aside>?
# [09:20] <othermaciej> great, how about an example for "Support World Languages"?
# [09:20] <othermaciej> does HTML5 still have the bdo element?
# [09:20] <othermaciej> or, heck, just being based on unicode is good for that
# [09:22] <hsivonen> othermaciej: based on Unicode including astral planes, <i> should be kept, because it is used a lot for bicameral scripts even though italics per se may be inapplicable to some scripts. <ruby> is legitimate even though it has a strong CJK focus.
# [09:22] <othermaciej> We don't have <ruby> yet so I am not sure if I should cite it
# [09:22] <hsivonen> iirc, bdo was still there
# [09:23] <othermaciej> I just mentioned supporting different character sets
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# [09:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I don't think we should emphasize supporting different encodings. we should emphasize Unicode being the one size fits all solution
# [09:24] <othermaciej> ok
# [09:24] <othermaciej> does HTML5 explain the cross-site scripting security model yet?
# [09:25] <hsivonen> othermaciej: <ruby> is a good example to balance <i>, because only mentioning <i> makes the example look Latin-centric while <ruby> is the "look it applies to something non-Latin" example
# [09:25] <othermaciej> oh, wait, cross-document messaging is a good eample
# [09:25] <othermaciej> hsivonen: ok
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# [09:33] <virtuelv> othermaciej: for what purpose are you looking for "Media independence"
# [09:33] <virtuelv> and what do you mean by it?
# [09:33] <Hixie> we need to support <ruby>
# [09:33] <Hixie> we don't have suggested aural renderings yet. we also don't have suggested visual renderings.
# [09:33] <Hixie> (we need both)
# [09:34] <Hixie> an example of something that was done for media independence would be the way drag-and-drop is defined
# [09:34] <Hixie> it's defined in such a way that it actually handles most ui paradigms, including copy/paste, using the same mechanism
# [09:35] <Lachy_> I thought there were suggested renderings for <ruby> in its existing spec
# [09:36] <othermaciej> I added a bunch of examples to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [09:36] <othermaciej> feel free to suggest better or just edit them
# [09:36] <Lachy_> (or maybe I just misunderstood what hixie wrote above)
# [09:36] <virtuelv> Hixie: is there anything done?
# [09:37] <virtuelv> (Ok, I'll stop playing devil's advocate here)
# [09:37] <Hixie> Lachy_: i meant in html5
# [09:37] <Hixie> the ruby spec is inadequate for our needs, sadly
# [09:38] <Hixie> and since i don't know anything about it, it's hard for me to spec it
# [09:38] <Hixie> though anne sent some useful data
# [09:38] <Hixie> so maybe it'll be possible to do
# [09:38] <Lachy_> I assumed that :-)
# [09:38] <Hixie> virtuelv: ?
# [09:39] <virtuelv> Hixie: nm, I was just pointing out that not much has been achieved in terms of media independence in HTML of any version, except the underlying principles of the markup language itself
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# [09:41] <Hixie> virtuelv: how so? i use html regularly on three media (screen, tty, print) and i know other people who use others (e.g. aural) exclusively
# [09:43] <virtuelv> Hixie: Yes, I am aware of all this, and I use screen, handheld, print regularily, I am just pointing out that media independence is inherit to HTML
# [09:43] <virtuelv> s/inherit/inherent/
# [09:43] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be
# [09:44] <Hixie> layout tables and <font> make it hard to use html across media
# [09:44] <Hixie> bed time i think
# [09:44] <Hixie> bbl
# [09:45] <Lachy_> othermaciej, othermaceij, "prefer specifying that technology as opposed to inventing something new..." might be better rephrased as "consider specifying that technology in preference to inventing something new..."
# [09:46] <othermaciej> Lachy_: done
# [09:47] <othermaciej> (well, as soon as it posts)
# [09:47] <Lachy_> cool
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# [13:40] <Dashiva> "Surely any browser manufacturer is always going to have a mode that will render older pages. What is preventing them having an HTML5 mode, which may or may not build upon their previous engine."
# [13:40] <Dashiva> The modes just won't go away
# [13:44] <Lachy> adding a new mode just for HTML5 doesn't help improve interop with legacy content
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# [13:48] <virtuelv> Lachy: quite the opposite
# [13:48] <Lachy> what?
# [13:48] <virtuelv> at least the MS "solution" as proposed is going to perpetuate non-interop
# [13:49] <Lachy> yeah
# [13:49] <Lachy> perhaps you misread what I wrote
# [13:49] <nickshanks> are there any multilinguists in here? i need help with plural forms for as many languages as possible
# [13:50] <Dashiva> I think his 'opposite' was 'not just no help, it actually makes it worse'
# [13:50] <zcorpan> swedish, english, dutch, some german
# [13:50] <virtuelv> nickshanks: for what purpose?
# [13:50] <MikeSmith> nickshanks - as far as Japanese, plural forms are not normally used
# [13:50] <virtuelv> Dashiva: correct assumption
# [13:50] <MikeSmith> or used only very occasionally
# [13:50] <nickshanks> virtuelv: for selecting correct translations
# [13:51] <nickshanks> see the table at the bottom of http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq19-plurals.html
# [13:51] <MikeSmith> and in Japanese, plurals are used only for people, as far as I know
# [13:52] <Dashiva> You can use it for other things too, with some 'besjelening', not sure of the English word
# [13:52] <nickshanks> i want that table in as many languages as possible
# [13:53] <zcorpan> nickshanks: i don't understand the table
# [13:53] <nickshanks> it's logic for selecting the correct translation when given an input number n
# [13:54] <nickshanks> e.g. english has two forms, a singular for n==1, and a plural used otherwise
# [13:54] <nickshanks> 0 houses, 1 house, 2 houses...
# [13:54] <MikeSmith> so what is Form 3?
# [13:54] <Dashiva> I can vouch for the table in English and Japanese
# [13:54] <Dashiva> Some languages have more than just singular and plural
# [13:55] <nickshanks> MikeSmith: english has no form three
# [13:55] <zcorpan> swedish: 0 hus, 1 hus, 2 hus (but this is not generalizable)
# [13:55] <Dashiva> Think 'one, both, all'
# [13:56] * Dashiva doesn't try to explain polish
# [13:56] <nickshanks> well if anyone can provide expansions to that table, just post them here and I'll add them to my implementation
# [13:57] <Dashiva> Norwegian is like English
# [13:57] <virtuelv> generalizing that is going to be hard
# [13:58] <nickshanks> Dashiva: nn, no, or nb ?
# [13:58] <zcorpan> swedish is sometimes +ar or +or or +er or no change for plural, and sometimes a vowel changes (e.g. foot/feet -- fot/fötter)
# [13:58] <Dashiva> zcorpan: He's not asking about how the plural changes, just for which numbers plural is used
# [13:59] <nickshanks> zcorpan: well the translators may have to get creative, i am just implementing the switching logic.
# [13:59] <zcorpan> ok
# [13:59] <Dashiva> nickshanks: all of them, I'd say
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# [14:00] <nickshanks> Dashiva: thx
# [14:00] <Dashiva> Considering trolltech is norwegian, wouldn't the default code include it though?
# [14:00] <nickshanks> i am trying to port the logic to Mac
# [14:01] <nickshanks> the Qt page i found via google
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# [16:19] <Voluminous> it
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# [18:26] <mpt> nickshanks, we've been collecting plural forms for Launchpad Translations, unfortunately we don't have a one-page list but you can search at https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages
# [18:28] <nickshanks> how does it work?
# [18:29] <nickshanks> i'm typing in things and getting nothing :)
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# [20:38] <deltab> nickshanks: search for e.g. Polish
# [20:38] <nickshanks> i looked for gaelic, dutch and français then gave up :)
# [20:38] <deltab> it's case sensitive too
# [20:39] <deltab> https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages/gd
# [20:39] <deltab> https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages?language_search=Dutch
# [20:46] <nickshanks> how odd, no-one speaks middle dutch
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# Session Close: Sat Apr 28 00:00:00 2007

The end :)