/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 30 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [04:17] <Hixie> the level to which DOM2 HTML is underspecified is insane
  24. # [04:28] <othermaciej> is it worse than DOM Core?
  25. # [04:33] <Hixie> to some extent yes
  26. # [04:33] <Hixie> e.g. try to work out what createTHead() does
  27. # [04:34] <Hixie> or what happens when you set table.caption
  28. # [04:35] <othermaciej> no thanks
  29. # [04:38] * othermaciej is now known as om_afk
  30. # [04:49] <hober> Would you consider <legend> to be block-level or inline-level? (Its content model is inline, but what of the element itself?)
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  34. # [06:05] <a-ja> anyone here have a clue why an <a> element wouldn't be allowed inside a <details> ?
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  45. # [09:02] <annevk> a-ja, probably because <details> is interactive at the moment
  46. # [09:02] <annevk> a-ja, I think it should be allowed though
  47. # [09:03] <a-ja> annevk: seems to take every other strictly inline i've tried
  48. # [09:04] <annevk> I'm not sure how that negates my point
  49. # [09:04] <a-ja> annevk: e.g. img, span, meter
  50. # [09:09] <a-ja> annevk: sure would be handy having hide/show ToC's in a <details>. in any event, if <a>'s not gonna be allowed, spec needs to say so
  51. # [09:11] <annevk> It already does
  52. # [09:11] <annevk> If you look at the definition of <a> you see: "Where strictly inline-level content is allowed, if there are no ancestor interactive elements."
  53. # [09:11] <annevk> And for <details> you can see that it's an interactive element
  54. # [09:12] <annevk> I don't think this restriction makes much sense, but the conformance checker is correct
  55. # [09:12] <a-ja> ah....links are considered interactive, eh?
  56. # [09:12] <annevk> yes
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  60. # [09:22] <a-ja> hmm...that'll make <details> useless for things like hiding/showing blog comments/feedback, too since they're likely to contain links :(
  61. # [09:23] <annevk> would you classify those as "details" though?
  62. # [09:24] <a-ja> yeah,,,that might be iffy
  63. # [09:24] <annevk> but the interactive stuff need sto be fixed, I think Hixie is aware of that (it also affects <datalist> for instance), but you might want to re-raise the point on the list
  64. # [09:25] <a-ja> toggling post's full text vs. just a summary would be nice, too
  65. # [09:25] <a-ja> better on whatwg or html-wg, you think?
  66. # [09:26] <annevk> whatwg
  67. # [09:26] * a-ja is not a member of either, but has been considering it
  68. # [09:26] <annevk> public-html hasn't adopted the spec yet
  69. # [09:26] <annevk> and you should probably join at least one of them
  70. # [09:28] <a-ja> still not any "no" votes
  71. # [09:31] <annevk> do you have a pointer btw?
  72. # [09:32] <a-ja> to signup info? remember seeing html-wg signup info at hixie's blog, wasn't it?
  73. # [09:32] <annevk> no, to the voting proceedings
  74. # [09:33] <a-ja> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/htmlbg/results
  75. # [09:34] <annevk> cool, thanks
  76. # [09:34] * annevk couldn't find it on the homepage
  77. # [09:35] <a-ja> heh....compact view of the results is non-public
  78. # [09:37] <a-ja> someone in moz #developers gave me the link the other day....never saw it anywhere else
  79. # [09:38] <om_afk> <details> should definitely allow things that are normally not allowed in interactive elements since they are themselves interactive
  80. # [09:38] <om_afk> IMO
  81. # [09:39] * om_afk is now known as othermaciej
  82. # [09:39] <annevk> agreed
  83. # [09:41] <othermaciej> In Mac OS X UI, the control that corresponds to "details" is often used to hide extra controls for a form or dialog
  84. # [09:41] <othermaciej> that are normally not of interest but sometimes are
  85. # [09:44] <annevk> yeah, I think Hixie solved the issues now
  86. # [09:44] <annevk> we can now also safely allow nested links if it weren't for the parsing
  87. # [09:46] * a-ja has been playing with <details> equivalent class-swapper thingy for a couple hours...and is frustrated getting it working via keyboard with opera
  88. # [09:52] <annevk> A future version of Opera will have addressed that...
  89. # [09:52] <annevk> (by supporting tabindex for HTMLElement)
  90. # [09:55] <a-ja> adding tabindex to a link child of legend let me get there, but won't fire "onactivate" for some reason, unless i add a href....but that make the page scroll
  91. # [09:58] <a-ja> annevk: in Kestrel, per chance?
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  102. # [11:40] <zcorpan_> re <a> in <details>: could be reasonable to disallow <a> in <details><legend>
  103. # [11:41] <zcorpan_> since it's really the legend that is interactive
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  105. # [11:59] <mpt> precisely
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  108. # [12:15] <annevk> note that that argument doesn't apply to <datalist>
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  115. # [13:23] <Lachy> zcorpan_, this article might be useful for you to post in that forum thread http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/script-comments
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  124. # [14:45] <Philip`> Is anybody testing HTML5 backward-compatibility with UAs that don't understand <script>/<style> and still need the content-hiding comments? (I would have thought it's very unlikely for anyone making an HTML5 page to expect it to work decently in ancient browsers, and if it's going to break badly anyway then there's no need for the spec to explain the script-hiding syntax)
  125. # [14:46] <othermaciej> how ancient are we talking about
  126. # [14:46] <othermaciej> Netscape 1?
  127. # [14:47] * Joins: haustein (n=shaustei@port-83-236-194-146.static.qsc.de)
  128. # [14:47] <Lachy> the browser on the Motorolla v3 phone!
  129. # [14:48] <Lachy> but that one can be ignored, since it would be mostly used in walled gardnes anyway
  130. # [14:48] <Lachy> *gardens
  131. # [14:49] <Philip`> The only age-related references I've seen are saying that HTML 3.2 added script/style and would correctly not display the contents, but I've got no idea how that matches implementations from that time period
  132. # [14:54] <Lachy> Netscape 2.0 added support for script, so any browser released after relatively soon afterwards would have added support too
  133. # [14:55] <Philip`> Wow, not even Google works in Netscape 3
  134. # [14:55] <Philip`> (It has JavaScript error boxes coming up)
  135. # [14:55] <Philip`> I wonder if that suggests it's old enough to be worth abandoning...
  136. # [14:56] <Lachy> anything before IE6 is worth abandoning
  137. # [14:58] <Lachy> heh, "What's the point of having different browsers if they are all required to work the same way ... ?" -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Apr/0211.html
  138. # [15:04] <zcorpan_> Lachy: it's a forum, anyone can post there :)
  139. # [15:04] <Lachy> zcorpan_, I'm not registered
  140. # [15:05] <Lachy> I'm also avoiding it because I don't like forums
  141. # [15:06] <zcorpan_> ok
  142. # [15:07] * Lachy responds once more to www-html (though I'm getting tired of the baseless arguments)
  143. # [15:07] <Philip`> Aha: Netscape Gold 2.02 and Navigator 3.04Gold shows the contents of <style>s, but not <script>s. Navigator 4.08 shows neither.
  144. # [15:08] <Lachy> I surprised you have all of those browsers installed
  145. # [15:08] <Philip`> I didn't, until ten minutes ago :-)
  146. # [15:08] <Philip`> http://sillydog.org/narchive/full123.php etc
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  148. # [15:11] <Philip`> Hmm, Netscape 2 takes quite a while to load the HTML5 spec, and then it gets stuck trying to download an image and doesn't draw the rest of the page :-(
  149. # [15:12] <Lachy> can you put up a screenshot of google, or something in NN2?
  150. # [15:13] <Lachy> or the Acid2 test :-)
  151. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> wouldn't <noscript><img src="tracker"/></noscript> work even in xhtml5, given that images that are display:none are not fetched?
  152. # [15:17] <Lachy> zcorpan_, are you sure they're not fetched?
  153. # [15:17] <Lachy> isn't that up to the browser?
  154. # [15:18] <Philip`> (Hmph, Gmail makes Netscape crash...)
  155. # [15:18] <Lachy> lol
  156. # [15:18] <Lachy> can anyone else access hixie.ch? I'm trying to get to the live dom viewer
  157. # [15:19] <Philip`> That and whatwg.org seem to be down
  158. # [15:22] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/nn2/
  159. # [15:22] <Philip`> (Google is at least still generally usable, if you ignore the script error on every page)
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  161. # [15:25] <Philip`> In any case, I think I feel justified in not doing <style><!--... on my sites because anybody using Netscape 3 is already going to be used to having a hard time on the web
  162. # [15:29] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
  163. # [15:32] <Philip`> (I have to go back to Netscape Navigator 1.22 before there's any point in doing <script><!--...//--></script>)
  164. # [15:34] <Lachy> what about past versions of IE?
  165. # [15:34] <Lachy> or TimBL's WWW browser
  166. # [15:35] <Philip`> (In relation to earlier discussions about parsing bogus colour values, NN1 parses "black" as #b0ac00, which disturbs my site's colour scheme)
  167. # [15:37] <Lachy> really? I thought it would have support for colour keywords
  168. # [15:37] <Lachy> I wonder when X11 colours were added to NN then
  169. # [15:38] <Philip`> NN2 handles black correctly
  170. # [15:39] <Lachy> try some more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
  171. # [15:39] <Philip`> http://browsers.evolt.org/?worldwideweb/NeXT - maybe that would work if I had a NeXT computer, but sadly I don't :-(
  172. # [15:40] <Philip`> http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit - aha, handy archive
  173. # [15:42] <Lachy> see which colours NN2 uses for Gray, Green Maroon and Purple, which clash between X11 and CSS
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  176. # [15:46] <othermaciej> Jukka's message seems poorly thought out
  177. # [15:46] <othermaciej> what's the point of having more than one browser if they all act completely different?
  178. # [15:46] <Lachy> did you read my response?
  179. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> i need to figure out exactly which color names are supported by html parsers, in order to put forward a proposal
  180. # [15:47] <Lachy> a proposal for what?
  181. # [15:47] <othermaciej> www-html seems much more insane than public-html
  182. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> for changing the html5 parsing algorithm
  183. # [15:47] <othermaciej> glad there's other people to cover it
  184. # [15:48] <Lachy> I thought all the supported colour names were known, you just need to determine the algorithm to use for unknown names
  185. # [15:48] <Philip`> Lachy: NN1 handles none of those colours; NN2 handles them all (and uses the HTML-like values rather than X11-like)
  186. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> don't we need to spec what the set of color names are to be known?
  187. # [15:49] <Lachy> CSS defines those, HTML can just reference that
  188. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> css3-color?
  189. # [15:50] <Lachy> yes
  190. # [15:50] <zcorpan_> could work
  191. # [15:51] <Lachy> oh, Tina responded to me on www-html, wanting to know which parts of HTML4 can't be implemented
  192. # [15:51] <Lachy> Now, where do I start?
  193. # [15:51] <othermaciej> <object>
  194. # [15:51] <Philip`> ...and the Wikipedia list is precisely the same set as is listed in NN2's .exe
  195. # [15:51] <othermaciej> is it "can't be implemented" or "can't be implemented interoperably"
  196. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> it surely contradicts itself in various places, doesn't it?
  197. # [15:52] <wilhelm> Lachy: Error handling.
  198. # [15:52] <othermaciej> also are we looking for self-contradiction in the spec, or contradiction to expectations of deployed content?
  199. # [15:52] <Lachy> othermaciej, both
  200. # [15:52] <othermaciej> tag minimization is one obvious thing in the latter category
  201. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> </foo closing style and script
  202. # [15:53] <Philip`> (...and precisely the same list of colour names in NN4 too)
  203. # [15:53] <Lachy> we should record this stuff in the whatwg wiki too!
  204. # [15:53] <othermaciej> you can't implement <foo/> as SGML calls for
  205. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> that ua's must not assume a default encoding
  206. # [15:53] <othermaciej> Lachy: this isn't quite the kind of thing you asked for, but it amuses me to no end that the definition of "conforming implementation" is self-contradictiory
  207. # [15:53] <othermaciej> in HTML4
  208. # [15:54] <Lachy> I'll mention that too
  209. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> perhaps it implies that being conforming is optional for conformance? :)
  210. # [15:55] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/conform.html
  211. # [15:55] <othermaciej> "A conforming user agent for HTML 4 is one that observes the mandatory conditions ("must") set forth in this specification, including the following points:"
  212. # [15:55] <othermaciej> and then it lists one should-level, one must-level and one recommend-level requirement
  213. # [15:56] <othermaciej> but you can also find whole chapters where the word "must" does not appear
  214. # [15:57] <Philip`> Whoops, my default browser is now set to Netscape 1
  215. # [15:57] <Philip`> At least the later versions asked me if I wanted to change it
  216. # [15:57] <othermaciej> this section for instance contains no UA conformance requirements: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html
  217. # [16:00] <Philip`> Lachy: Unfortunately I can't test old versions of IE - "Internet Explorer 3.0 cannot be installed on a system that has Internet Explorer 4.0 installed"
  218. # [16:01] <Philip`> although I may actually have a spare Windows 3.1 virtual machine somewhere, which may run it...
  219. # [16:01] <Lachy> cool
  220. # [16:03] <zcorpan_> Philip`: does it need to be installed? isn't there a standalone version that just runs?
  221. # [16:09] <Philip`> (Hmm, installing network drivers in Win3.11 is too much of a pain so I think I'll give up)
  222. # [16:10] * zcorpan_ has or had mosaic installed... most of the web didn't work at all
  223. # [16:10] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Ah, hadn't tried that, but the ones at http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone seem to work
  224. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> ...which wasn't because of the markup used but something else (probably http something)
  225. # [16:12] <Philip`> NN1 seems to have HTTP problems - it's not telling the server what hostname it's connecting to, or something, so it acts the same as if you typed in the IP directly (which rarely works)
  226. # [16:12] <Philip`> How peculiar - the HTML5 spec in IE3 has a textarea in the top left corner
  227. # [16:12] <zcorpan_> perhaps it sees the <textarea> in the last comment
  228. # [16:13] <zcorpan_> closes comments at > or something
  229. # [16:16] <Philip`> (Oh, there's no standalone IE2 there, and the non-standalone one fails to install with "Internet Explorer requires Windows 95.")
  230. # [16:17] <Philip`> (IE3 has precisely the same list of colour names as NN2)
  231. # [16:20] <Lachy> does <applet> also suffer from interop problems?
  232. # [16:21] <othermaciej> <applet> has a pretty serious flaw in Safari
  233. # [16:21] <othermaciej> at times, it is known to load a Java applet
  234. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> "If your argument was correct, then everyone would learn about mark-up simply by reading other people's mark-up, which is obviously not what happens."
  235. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> wow
  236. # [16:22] <othermaciej> that's the only way I ever learned...
  237. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> it might not apply to *everyone*, but surely most
  238. # [16:23] <othermaciej> even people who learn from books copy the examples in those books
  239. # [16:23] <Lachy> zcorpan_, who wrote that?
  240. # [16:23] <zcorpan_> Lachy: mark http://www.w3.org/mid/640dd5060704300529u70a16269xec412a16436f3e2b@mail.gmail.com
  241. # [16:24] <Lachy> he is so out of touch
  242. # [16:25] <Lachy> even I learned by view source initially, though I started reading specs when that was too difficult to understnad
  243. # [16:31] * Philip` wonders how different the web would be today if the early browsers didn't have a "view source" menu item
  244. # [16:32] <Lachy> people would have been forced to use editors to write HTML, just like very few people hand code RTF, PDF, Work docs, etc.
  245. # [16:32] <Lachy> s/Work/Word/
  246. # [16:35] <Lachy> here's the draft of my reply to Tina http://lachy.id.au/temp/html4
  247. # [16:37] <othermaciej> SHORTTAG syntax is kind of cool
  248. # [16:37] <othermaciej> too bad it can't be used
  249. # [16:45] <Lachy> I made a few more additions and modifications, and I think I'm ready to send it. I'm sure there would be more, but I couldn't be bothered looking.
  250. # [16:48] <othermaciej> I think "do not assume a default character set" is one worth listing
  251. # [16:48] <othermaciej> (don't remember the precise wording of the spec)
  252. # [16:48] <Lachy> where does it say that in the sepc?
  253. # [16:48] <Lachy> found it
  254. # [16:48] <Lachy> it says "Therefore, user agents must not assume any default value for the "charset" parameter."
  255. # [16:48] <Lachy> what should I say about it?
  256. # [16:50] <othermaciej> user agents have to assume the default encoding is Windows Latin 1
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  258. # [16:50] <othermaciej> (windows-1252 officially)
  259. # [16:51] <othermaciej> in fact, browsers have to treat latin1 as windows-1252 always, but I don't think HTML is to blame for that
  260. # [16:51] <Philip`> "<table border> is actually shorthand for <table frame="border">" - shouldn't that be border="border"?
  261. # [16:52] <Lachy> no
  262. # [16:52] <Lachy> in HTML5, yes
  263. # [16:52] <Lachy> in SGML, no
  264. # [16:52] <Philip`> Oh, okay, HTML4 has funny rules for that
  265. # [16:53] <Lachy> it's actually the attribute name that can be omitted, not the value as most people think
  266. # [16:53] <Lachy> but UAs only implemented it for attrs that had the same name and value
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  268. # [16:54] <wilhelm> othermaciej: In some countries, UAs have to use other encodings as default.
  269. # [16:54] <Lachy> othermaciej, I added the default charset thing
  270. # [16:55] <Lachy> wilhelm, yes, I wrote "usually forced to default to win 1252"
  271. # [16:55] <othermaciej> wilhelm: well, the per-country default encoding thing is even worse - we don't actually do that in Safari because we don't want your web browsing to be affected by language setting
  272. # [16:55] <wilhelm> Most Japanese websites don't bother defining what charset they use. And it usually isn't windows-1252.
  273. # [16:55] <met_> what exactly mean "concur" in the W3C wbs? feel something like no but without canceling the approval?
  274. # [16:55] <Lachy> it means you agree with whatever the majority say
  275. # [16:56] <wilhelm> othermaciej: It is terrible, I agree. But you can't ship on Japanese devices without it.
  276. # [16:56] <met_> what is difference pro abstaining?
  277. # [16:57] <othermaciej> wilhelm: I might consider it if it was for localized hardware sold only in the given region
  278. # [16:57] <Lachy> met_, see the logs of #html-wg from a few hours ago for an explanation
  279. # [16:58] <Lachy> we just need to get japanese markets to use UTF-8 or UTF-16 for everything.
  280. # [16:58] <wilhelm> othermaciej: Yes. That is what we (Opera) do on the Wii and on phones for Japanese customers.
  281. # [16:59] <Lachy> the major problem is that OSs ship with different default charsets for different languages, instead of Unicode
  282. # [16:59] <met_> Lachy thx
  283. # [17:00] <Lachy> what does a japanese user do when they visit a site that needs to default to win 1252?
  284. # [17:00] <wilhelm> Lachy: Getting everyone to use Unicode would be ideal. But just getting sites to define which charset they use would solve most of these problems.
  285. # [17:00] <othermaciej> yeah, relying on the default encoding is bad
  286. # [17:01] <wilhelm> Yes. It breaks Norwegian sites in Japan, and Japanese sites in Norway.
  287. # [17:01] <Lachy> wilhelm, we've got more chance of fixing the situation by getting editors to use Unicode as default encoding for everyting, than by getting authors to declare charsets
  288. # [17:03] <Lachy> any more suggestions for my list of HTML4 issues before I send?
  289. # [17:03] <wilhelm> That is possible.
  290. # [17:04] <othermaciej> Lachy: in Asia (Japan especially), enthusiasm for unicode is not that widespread
  291. # [17:04] <Lachy> why not?
  292. # [17:05] <othermaciej> they like how compact encodings like shift-JIS are for their language
  293. # [17:05] <othermaciej> same reason Americans don't tend to use UTF-16
  294. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> the Japanese developer community is not fond of Unicode. Many Japanese mobile devices don't have proper Unicode support (or even fonts for non-ASCII Latin characters). Several Japanese desktop mail clients don't have Unicode support, and many (or most) e-mail clients on mobile devices in Japan don't either
  295. # [17:06] <Lachy> yeah, full support for unicode is a problem everywhere
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  308. # [19:10] <othermaciej> good morning
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  310. # [19:14] <gsnedders> is it possible to have a third state with a checkbox (like the line in OS X?)
  311. # [19:18] <Dashiva> Not as of currently, no
  312. # [19:23] <gsnedders> so I haven't forgotten some input type value
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  317. # [19:57] <gsnedders> I take it the SOLIDUS is allowed in all empty elements?
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  324. # [20:40] <deltab> gsnedders: I take it you mean inside the start tag?
  325. # [20:41] <deltab> void elements only
  326. # [20:41] <deltab> i.e. base, link, meta, hr, br, img, embed, param, area, col, input
  327. # [20:41] <gsnedders> yes
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  336. # [21:39] <bewest> "the w3c should define HTML, and browser manufacturers should be willing to accept that definition (or to reject it, at their own risk: this is a free world), but it would be a great boost for standards were the "W3C HTML 5" logo to be as applicable to /browsers/ as it will be to web pages."
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  348. # [22:28] * om_lunch is now known as othermaciej
  349. # [22:29] <gsnedders> mm… looking through the HTML 4.01 Trans DTD, there are more EMPTY elements than those allowed to have a SOLIDUS character in their start tag in the parsing section of WA1.0
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  351. # [22:37] * othermaciej is tempted to +1 Hixie's email about +1 messages, but restrains his impish side
  352. # [22:40] <bewest> othermaciej: your buddy dave hyatt beat you to it
  353. # [22:41] <othermaciej> I guess he's more of an ass than I am :-)
  354. # [22:42] <bewest> I'm not sure how much +1 matters on the public-html list either
  355. # [22:42] <bewest> it appears the chairs intend to use web surveys
  356. # [22:42] <bewest> othermaciej: you have some nice replies on that list, btw
  357. # [22:43] <bewest> imo one of the voices of sanity
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  360. # [22:45] <Philip`> Hixie's email was only explaining why +1 is not useful in discussions about technical issues, where there can be objectively wrong answers - it wasn't arguing that +1 is not useful in discussions about whether +1 is not useful in discussions, and hence it seems quite logical to +1 it
  361. # [22:45] <jgraham> +1
  362. # [22:46] * jgraham has wanted to type that in response to /almost anything/ for weeks. He realises this is deeply illogical
  363. # [22:47] <gsnedders> +1
  364. # [22:47] <gsnedders> I restrained replying to Anne's (I think) call for an end of +1s on public-html, on grounds that he was citing the number of messages as a reason, making it further illogical
  365. # [22:48] <othermaciej> -1
  366. # [22:49] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[afk]
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  369. # [22:58] <Hixie> if anyone's bored and wants to argue for a while, this one's hot: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=1500
  370. # [23:04] <othermaciej> the very URL is discouraging
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  386. # Session Close: Tue May 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)