/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 01 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:29] * Joins: fax_machine (n=fax_mach@74-129-102-1.dhcp.insightbb.com)
  4. # [00:37] <Hixie> annevk?
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  11. # [01:15] <Hixie> so i'm thinking of making the parser introduce xml:base attributes as the way to handle stray <base> elements
  12. # [01:15] <Hixie> anyone see anything wrong with that?
  13. # [01:16] <Hixie> the alternatives are to have a magical base resolution mechanism and simply ignoring stray <base> tags
  14. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> ie7 ignores stray <base>s, doesn't it?
  15. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> (or is that in standards mode only?)
  16. # [01:16] <Hixie> probably both
  17. # [01:17] <Hixie> as in, "yes" to both questions, probably
  18. # [01:17] <zcorpan_> right. and we want to deal with quirks :)
  19. # [01:17] <zcorpan_> (at least if the web relies on them)
  20. # [01:17] <Hixie> i wonder if i have some data on <base> elements
  21. # [01:18] <zcorpan_> it amused me when ms decided to ignore stray <base>s... obviously they based their implementation on document conformance requirements in html4
  22. # [01:19] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com) (".")
  23. # [01:19] <Hixie> about 5% of sites have 1 <base> tag, apparently
  24. # [01:20] <Hixie> 0.03% have 2
  25. # [01:20] * bewest uses base
  26. # [01:20] <Hixie> 0.0017% have 3
  27. # [01:20] <zcorpan_> but does defining it with xml:base work? i mean if there are multiple <base>s in the same parent
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  29. # [01:20] <Hixie> and a few thousand have more than 3
  30. # [01:21] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i would make the xml:base be set on every element until the next <base>, i guess
  31. # [01:21] <zcorpan_> ah. right
  32. # [01:22] <Hixie> so we're talking about a few million pages here
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  34. # [01:22] <Hixie> with 2 or more <base> elements
  35. # [01:22] <Hixie> i wonder how many have the same URI in both <base> elements
  36. # [01:22] <zcorpan_> there might be pages that use only one but have it in the middle
  37. # [01:23] <zcorpan_> <link href><base href><link href>
  38. # [01:23] <Hixie> oh actually this was only counting _different_ values for <base>
  39. # [01:23] <Hixie> so a few million pages use two different values for <base>
  40. # [01:26] <zcorpan_> so if you serialize to xml, do you drop the <base>s?
  41. # [01:27] <zcorpan_> afaict browsers don't ignore <base> in xhtml
  42. # [01:28] <zcorpan_> for some reason i think magical base resolution mechanism would work better
  43. # [01:30] <zcorpan_> i'm not an implementor though but i'm just observing what browsers are doing today :)
  44. # [01:33] <Hixie> yeah, dunno
  45. # [01:33] * Hixie needs to study this more
  46. # [01:34] <Hixie> my main concern with supporting <base> in XHTML is that it means URI resolution will be different in XHTML UAs than pure XML UAs
  47. # [01:34] <Hixie> but i guess i can point the topic at myself
  48. # [01:35] <zcorpan_> ah. so you'd like to drop support for <base> in xhtml5 completely?
  49. # [01:35] <Hixie> that's what the spec says today iirc
  50. # [01:35] <Hixie> but people have argued against that
  51. # [01:36] <bewest> I like base
  52. # [01:36] <bewest> it makes it easy to develop entire websites and then move the whole thing
  53. # [01:36] <bewest> only thing you need to change is a variable somewhere
  54. # [01:36] <Hixie> you like <base>, or you like the concept of having a base URI?
  55. # [01:36] <bewest> base URI
  56. # [01:36] <zcorpan_> it says authors must not use it in xml. afaict it doesn't say uas must ignore it in xml
  57. # [01:36] <Hixie> ok well that's fine, nobody's talking about removing that feature :-)
  58. # [01:37] <bewest> ah
  59. # [01:37] <Hixie> we're just talking about the syltax
  60. # [01:37] * bewest pipes down
  61. # [01:37] <Hixie> zcorpan_: ah
  62. # [01:37] <Hixie> hehe
  63. # [01:38] <zcorpan_> today, browsers don't ignore <base> in xml, but since 0.00% of the web use xml it might not be much of an issue to change that :)
  64. # [01:39] <Hixie> :-)
  65. # [01:39] <Hixie> yeah, especially since 95% of pages don't use base stuff at all
  66. # [01:39] <Hixie> so that'd make it 5% of 0.00% :-)
  67. # [01:39] <zcorpan_> indeed :)
  68. # [01:41] <Philip`> I guess a physicist would call that 0.000%
  69. # [01:42] <zcorpan_> but <base href> changes the #document base uri. xml:base at best changes the root element's base uri
  70. # [01:42] <zcorpan_> (which makes a difference with xhr iirc)
  71. # [01:42] <Hixie> yeah
  72. # [01:44] <Hixie> talking about t-shirts
  73. # [01:44] <Hixie> here's one
  74. # [01:44] <Hixie> it just says "XForms is the automobile." on it
  75. # [01:44] <othermaciej> lol
  76. # [01:44] <Dashiva> I thought xforms was the lightbulb
  77. # [01:45] <othermaciej> and HTML forms is LOAD AX, 1000
  78. # [01:45] <othermaciej> but we really need more declarative syntax for that
  79. # [01:46] <Dashiva> op="load" ra="ax" rb="1000" ?
  80. # [01:46] <zcorpan_> we need spreadsheets to make our t-shirts
  81. # [01:46] <othermaciej> it really should be <instruction><opcode>LOAD</opcode><operand type="register">AX</operand><operand type="integer-constant">1000</operand></instruction>
  82. # [01:47] <othermaciej> then you can abstract opcode to be a processor-independent operation, and use psuedo-registers for your registers, and allow the author to add a declarative model of their instruction set and pipeline model
  83. # [01:47] <Hixie> don't forget version="1.0" on the <instruction> element
  84. # [01:47] <othermaciej> and optimal code can be generated automatically
  85. # [01:48] <Philip`> You could do all your register allocation using XSLT
  86. # [01:48] <zcorpan_> most importantly, it can be produced by authoring tools for people who don't know about markup
  87. # [01:49] <Dashiva> They don't even need to know assembly if we abstract away the commands well enough
  88. # [01:55] <bewest> yes, we should have declaritive expressions for spreadsheets for people who can't author them, but we should also be sure to leave <font> out of it
  89. # [01:55] <bewest> 'cause <font> is what those browser-makers want
  90. # [01:55] <othermaciej> bewest: to be fair, that's two separate groups of crazy people
  91. # [01:55] <bewest> yeah
  92. # [01:55] <bewest> but it's all crazy if you ask me
  93. # [01:57] <othermaciej> I'm just waiting for the "remove all vestiges of presentational markup" people to get in a fight with the "we need more presentational markup" people
  94. # [01:57] <othermaciej> someone should Cc Tina on the <indent> thread
  95. # [01:58] <Dashiva> That would probably make the server kneel under the load
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  111. # [03:15] <Hixie> so...
  112. # [03:16] <Hixie> IE only handles <base href=""> on the first <base> element
  113. # [03:16] <Hixie> but
  114. # [03:16] <Hixie> it handles <base target> the same way as before
  115. # [03:17] <othermaciej> that's kinda freaky
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  117. # [03:22] <Hixie> so does safari have any bugs about compat regarding your <base target> handling?
  118. # [03:23] <othermaciej> I'll see if I can find any
  119. # [03:23] <othermaciej> but it's unlikely I can give a definitive "no"
  120. # [03:24] <othermaciej> since there could well be unreduced bugs that boil down to that issue
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  122. # [03:27] <othermaciej> I have one titled "Documents with multiple base tags handled differently than IE"
  123. # [03:27] <othermaciej> but it does not appear to involve target
  124. # [03:27] <othermaciej> and may be obsoleted by IE7
  125. # [03:28] <Hixie> k
  126. # [03:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: I couldn't find any that were clearly about <base target>, but I only found very few that were about <base> at all (4 total)
  127. # [03:30] <othermaciej> there could easily be more lurking in unreduced bugs
  128. # [03:30] <Hixie> k
  129. # [03:30] <Hixie> thanks
  130. # [03:30] <Hixie> do let me know if you spot anything in future
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  133. # [03:38] <tantek> is there a document.us collection that returns all the base elements?
  134. # [03:40] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@217-211-77-236-no13.tbcn.telia.com)
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  138. # [04:12] <hays> What should I read to convince me that the current direction of HTML 5 is not insane?
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  140. # [04:21] <Hixie> hays: the spec, probably
  141. # [04:23] <crimson_penguin> Hixie: The spec is what makes him think it's insane, so I doubt reading it again will turn his opinion to the opposite
  142. # [04:24] <hays> So the C spec, for example, has a document that discusses the "why" of certain decisions that is not normative. Python has PEPs. Is there something like that for HTML 5?
  143. # [04:24] <Hixie> yeah, hold on, let me get you some links
  144. # [04:38] <hays> thanks
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  146. # Session Close: Wed May 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)