/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 02 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [08:52] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  29. # [12:47] <met_> whow, Gareth negative vote was removed
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  42. # [15:19] * hsivonen notes that that the current spec doesn't specify expansions for HTML5 or XHTML5.
  43. # [15:19] * hsivonen notes that RELAX NG isn't defined to be an abbreviation
  44. # [15:20] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147856 shows that authors are confused with how CSS works in XHTML
  45. # [15:20] <hsivonen> so far, I've marked HTML5 and XHTML5 as <abbr> but not RELAX NG
  46. # [15:21] <annevk> for the former, me too
  47. # [15:21] * zcorpan_ thinks the expansion of XHTML5 should be "XML serialization of HyperText Markup Language 5" :)
  48. # [15:21] <annevk> for the latter, dunno
  49. # [15:21] <annevk> XHTML = XML serialization of HTML
  50. # [15:22] <annevk> HTML = HTML language and / or HTML syntax
  51. # [15:22] * hsivonen just wrote Extensible HyperText Markup Language 5 in his glossary
  52. # [15:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: should I revise?
  53. # [15:23] <Dashiva> Then there's the battle over (XHTML)5 vs X(HTML5)
  54. # [15:23] <hsivonen> Dashiva: my glossary has "(X)HTML5" ;-)
  55. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> "(XML serialization of) HTML5"
  56. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> :)
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  60. # [15:55] <Philip`> Hixie: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=122363 seems a useful explanation - there is a secret fixed set of possible processing keys, and each can be 'reached' (in some mathematical way I don't quite understand) from a different subset of all device keys; so you can revoke compromised devices by choosing a (small) set of processing keys such that none can be reached from any of the device keys known to any compromised device.
  61. # [15:55] <Philip`> Once you know a processing key that's used on a disc (which is typically the same for all discs), you can combine that with some other disc-specific data to end up with the keys that decrypt the actual data; at least until new discs are manufactured with new processing keys, in which case you have to start all over again and try to discover the new keys.
  62. # [15:56] <Philip`> (...or at least that's my understanding - it looks like a not entirely trivial system)
  63. # [16:04] <Dashiva> Security through really many keys
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  67. # [16:21] <Philip`> At least it's a readable published specification, and the security depends entirely on the keys being kept secret, which is how cryptography ought to work - the problem is that it's impossible to keep the keys secret, and it has statements like "A device shall keep the value s_0 confidential, as defined in the license agreement" which doesn't work quite so well when millions of customers have your devices and want to extract the secret values
  68. # [16:22] <Dashiva> As the aacs people say, the system hasn't been breached, it's key leakage. They just leave out the 'inevitable'.
  69. # [16:22] <Philip`> So apart from being fundamentally flawed, it seems quite good :-)
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  78. # [17:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: like HTML5?-)
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  83. # [17:20] <hsivonen> any interest in reviewing my glossary? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml#glossary
  84. # [17:22] <hasather> hsivonen: American Standard Code of Information Interchange, s/of/for/?
  85. # [17:22] <Dashiva> You don't define conforming, but you define both valid and validation
  86. # [17:22] <hsivonen> hasather: right. thanks
  87. # [17:23] <zcorpan_> Hypertext vs. HyperText
  88. # [17:23] <hasather> hsivonen: IANA: "... maintains regisries of Internet media types"
  89. # [17:24] <hasather> regisries is wrong
  90. # [17:24] <zcorpan_> not sure which it should be (for the expansion of HTML)
  91. # [17:29] <hsivonen> Dashiva: defined.
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  93. # [17:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: fixed. HyperText for HTML and XHTML. Hypertext for HTTP and WHATWG.
  94. # [17:29] <hsivonen> hasather: typo fixed
  95. # [17:29] <hsivonen> thanks
  96. # [17:30] <hsivonen> oops. the explanation for GML is missing
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  102. # [17:33] <hasather> hsivonen: is RELAX NG ever expanded as "... New Generation". I haven't seen that in any official docs
  103. # [17:34] * sgillies_ is now known as sgillies
  104. # [17:34] <hsivonen> hasather: neither the OASIS nor the ISO spec defines RELAX NG as an abbreviation
  105. # [17:34] <hsivonen> of either New Generation or Next Generation
  106. # [17:35] <hasather> ok, so is that bogus? Did someone just make it up? Or did it disappear sometime?
  107. # [17:35] <hsivonen> hasather: Wikipedia says Next
  108. # [17:35] <hsivonen> hasather: it is pretty obvious that NG comes from Next Generation even if unofficially
  109. # [17:36] <hsivonen> or perhaps New
  110. # [17:39] <hasather> hsivonen: yea, it's pretty obvious what it stands for, but kinda weird that it's not used in any of the official docs
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  112. # [17:40] <hsivonen> hasather: yeah. it's weird that HTML5 isn't expanded, either
  113. # [17:41] <hasather> it is in your glossary though :)
  114. # [17:42] <hsivonen> hasather: which is why I asked Hixie if I need to revise :-)
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  116. # [17:43] <hsivonen> btw, my generator works in the opposite direction than usual
  117. # [17:43] <hsivonen> it doesn't collect title attributes
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  120. # [17:43] <hsivonen> but it collects dl definitions and assigns titles based on that
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  122. # [17:44] <hasather> hsivonen: ah, cool
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  126. # [17:46] <hsivonen> hasather: hence the seemingly extra spans
  127. # [17:46] <hsivonen> in the definitions, that is
  128. # [17:53] <Philip`> "UTF-32: ... a one-to-one mapping between characters and code units" - I think "code point" would be more accurate than "character"
  129. # [17:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. though characters and code points are one-to-one
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  131. # [17:58] <othermaciej> I don't think "code point" is accurate
  132. # [17:59] <othermaciej> because there is a one-to-one mapping between characters and code points even in UTF-8
  133. # [17:59] <othermaciej> the code point is the unique numeric identifier of the character
  134. # [17:59] <othermaciej> what's different about UTF-32 is that it always takes exactly one unit of the encoding to identify a code point
  135. # [18:00] <othermaciej> whereas for UTF-8 it's 1-5 and for UTF-16 it's 1-2 (I think)
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  137. # [18:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: I can't find any precise definition of "character" in Unicode at all - their glossary gives four different meanings, including "abstract character" which is defined as being possibly multiple code points (it "can often be represented by the use of combining character sequences")
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  139. # [18:07] <Philip`> othermaciej: I intended "between code points and code units" (rather than "between characters and code points")
  140. # [18:09] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  141. # [18:15] <hsivonen> hmm. I need to add entries for document tree and infoset
  142. # [18:16] <hsivonen> Added character-related entries
  143. # [18:33] <Philip`> "UTF-32: ... a character encoding a single ..." -> "a character encoding in which a single ..."
  144. # [18:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: uploading a fix right now
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  146. # [18:36] <Philip`> "XML parsing failed: syntax error" - hmm, I'm unsure whether it's good or bad that that happens with partially-uploaded files
  147. # [18:36] <Philip`> I suppose it's good that it makes it obvious there's a problem
  148. # [18:36] <Philip`> (given that the problem will be fixed shortly)
  149. # [18:36] <hsivonen> now fully uploaded
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  151. # [18:41] <Philip`> Looks good :-)
  152. # [18:41] <Philip`> Unrelated to the glossary, in the section headings for 5.10 and 8.10, there seems to be insufficient space between the 0 and the words
  153. # [18:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: which format? which UA?
  154. # [18:43] <Philip`> XHTML and HTML, in Opera and Firefox
  155. # [18:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have Palatino or Palladio available?
  156. # [18:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: firefox 2 or 3 nightly?
  157. # [18:44] <Philip`> Ah, neither - I guess the different font would cause it to mess up
  158. # [18:45] <hsivonen> works for me in both Firefox and Opera on Mac with Palatino available
  159. # [18:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: does your serif font have unusually wide digit glyphs?
  160. # [18:45] <Philip`> It breaks in FF3, works in FF2, but that's just because they have different fonts selected
  161. # [18:46] <Philip`> Looks like it's DejaVu Serif that causes problems
  162. # [18:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: Firefox 2.0 gets different layout because it doesn't support inline-block
  163. # [18:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm going to resolve as WONTFIX
  164. # [18:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: but thanks
  165. # [18:47] * hsivonen is optimizing for Prince
  166. # [18:48] <Philip`> Okay, sounds sensible :-)
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  200. # [20:51] <Dashiva> +1 (ducks)
  201. # [20:51] <Dashiva> I didn't know we had ducks
  202. # [20:52] <bewest> yeah, they're cute and will follow you around. also they are yellow.
  203. # [20:52] <Philip`> Most ducks just run away from me :-(
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  213. # [21:30] <met_> reading http://www.evardsson.com/blog/2007/05/02/looks-like-whatwgs-html-5-is-a-go/ it's true only 110 members of html wg can vote? or all 384 members?
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  215. # [21:31] <annevk> companies can vote once
  216. # [21:32] <met_> looking at http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1 there are >300 invited experts so >300 votes, isn't?
  217. # [21:32] <Philip`> He's probably counting the 90 voters plus the 20 in the non-responders list
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  219. # [21:32] <Philip`> (which won't quite work since the non-responders list is broken)
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  236. # [22:34] * Quits: h3h (n=h3h@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) ("|")
  237. # [22:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: i personally prefer "XML serialisation of...", but I don't believe I or the WHATWG has ever taken an official stance on the matter before now
  238. # [22:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok.
  239. # [22:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: does HTML5 stand for HyperText Markup Language 5? that is, is it still an abbreviation? (I hope it is)
  240. # [22:41] <Hixie> sure
  241. # [22:42] * Hixie doesn't really have an opinion either way :-P
  242. # [22:44] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("k lol plz thx bai")
  243. # [22:44] <hsivonen> the fix to the glossary should be live now
  244. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
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  258. # Session Close: Thu May 03 00:00:00 2007

The end :)