/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 07 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <MichaelMH> Is it a bad thing to have an empty div? because sometimes (actually quite alot) I use divs purely for presentational purposes
  4. # [00:02] <zcorpan> an empty div for presentational purposes is mostly harmless
  5. # [00:03] <MichaelMH> mostly...?
  6. # [00:03] <zcorpan> but using html for presentational purposes in general is not what html is designed to do
  7. # [00:03] <Philip`> (...but a <div> without a matching </div> is an error and makes the document non-conforming, regardless of how it's parsed)
  8. # [00:04] <MichaelMH> so can you write it as "<div>" or does it have to be "<div></div>"
  9. # [00:04] <zcorpan> the latter
  10. # [00:04] <MichaelMH> why?
  11. # [00:04] <MichaelMH> if theres nothing in it why does it need the </div>
  12. # [00:05] <zcorpan> because otherwise everything after it will be children of the div
  13. # [00:06] <zcorpan> e.g. compare "<div>X" with "<div></div>X"
  14. # [00:06] <MichaelMH> oh ok, it just looks a little silly is all
  15. # [00:08] <MichaelMH> do you gentlemen mind if I show off my latest design to you?
  16. # [00:08] <MichaelMH> its written in xhtml tho.. with the <br />s so I hope none get offended
  17. # [00:09] <Philip`> I think the people here don't mind much about impure language usage - that's why we're not working on XHTML :-)
  18. # [00:09] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@odin.landmark.edu)
  19. # [00:10] <MichaelMH> its um still a work in progress
  20. # [00:10] <MichaelMH> http://www.michaelmh.com/stuff/JimKing/
  21. # [00:11] <MichaelMH> its a bit iffy in opera with the drop down color change bit. and it basically explodes in IE. should be fine in Firefox and Safari
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  23. # [00:12] <MichaelMH> i'm a newbie to javascript and php tho so the color change thing might be a bit iffy too
  24. # [00:14] <MichaelMH> who picked pink?
  25. # [00:15] * Parts: jsled (n=njsled@dsl195.burlvtma.sover.net) ("Leaving")
  26. # [00:16] * Philip` looks innocent
  27. # [00:17] <MichaelMH> do you like whole one area controlled by the page scroll bar thing going on?
  28. # [00:18] <MichaelMH> purple...
  29. # [00:19] * Philip` fails to break the code :-(
  30. # [00:19] <MichaelMH> what did you do?
  31. # [00:19] <MichaelMH> I was scared of someone breaking it. it validates both client side and server side
  32. # [00:20] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be nice if that area could expand to fill the screen, since it's otherwise fairly tiny in the middle of a big screen - I have no idea how to implement that, though
  33. # [00:20] <Philip`> (It also breaks really badly in Firefox 3 when scrolling, since everything jumps around until it's redrawn the whole screen, but maybe they'll fix that eventually)
  34. # [00:22] <Philip`> Otherwise I think it looks good, particularly with the faint shadows :-)
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  36. # [00:25] <MichaelMH> :D thanks. I'm really chuffed with the code too. I literally just started learning javascript two days ago (and consequently php since I need to validate the info client side and write it to a file.) and i coded the bit which checks the brightness of the colour. I nicked the thing that checks whether or not the value is hex tho, I couldnt fiqure out how to do that
  37. # [00:30] <MichaelMH> well gtg. I'll come back on tommoro with new questions once I've read all this stuff.
  38. # [00:30] <MichaelMH> nice shade of blue ;)
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  82. # [12:08] <virtuelv> a tad off-topic, but should still be of some interest, http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2007/05/css22/index.php
  83. # [12:16] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/bib4ht-0.9.tar.gz may interest people who seek to author stuff in XHTML+SVG instead of LaTeX+EPS.
  84. # [12:17] <annevk> virtuelv, not really, we've been discussing CSS5
  85. # [12:17] <met_> CSS5 ? 8-)
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  87. # [12:19] <annevk> met_, nothing more concrete than that, although it sort of implies a cleaned up version of CSS with probably some features for applications
  88. # [12:19] <annevk> and more aimed at implementors
  89. # [12:20] <met_> if it helps in some progress, good
  90. # [12:21] <hsivonen> now that I have a legitimate reason to do XHTML+SVG vs. HTML+PNG serving from a single URL, I'd be interested in pointers to a howto on how I can write my own decision logic with Apache
  91. # [12:22] <hsivonen> should I use mod_rewrite to map http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker to a PHP script?
  92. # [12:23] <hsivonen> basically, I want to serve a/x+x if Accepted but serve t/h to a old version of popular a/x+x-accepting browsers
  93. # [12:44] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  98. # [12:57] <MichaelMH> hello
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  100. # [12:58] <zcorpan> MichaelMH: heya
  101. # [13:01] <MichaelMH> I'm back, I did a little bit of reading last nite. the FAQ seems to be a bit unfinished though
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  103. # [13:11] <annevk> MichaelMH, yeah, much like the spec
  104. # [13:11] <Lachy_> MichaelMH, if you would like to contribute to the FAQ, I'd appreciate it :-)
  105. # [13:14] <MichaelMH> I'm afraid I'm not very good at writing about things I do not fully understand myself :P
  106. # [13:14] <Lachy_> well, if there are any unanswered questions you would like answered, let me know, and I can write an answer for you
  107. # [13:15] <Lachy_> or if you have any new questions
  108. # [13:16] <MichaelMH> this one: "Why do we need both HTML 5 and XHTML 2.0?" although zcorpan explained it to me last nite it was what confused me the most when I came to this site
  109. # [13:21] <met_> Lachy_, you still insist on "When will HTML 5 be finished? Around *15* years or more to reach a W3C recommendation"? 8-)
  110. # [13:22] <Lachy_> at the rate the HTMLWG is resolving any issues, I'd be inclined to extend that a little :-)
  111. # [13:22] * met_ uffs
  112. # [13:23] <Lachy_> but I have faith in Hixie getting his act together and actually doing some work on the spec regardless of the HTMLWG ;-)
  113. # [13:23] <annevk> In terms of features HTML5 is mostly finished. In terms of gaining implementation experience and incorperating feedback and implementation feedback it's not. And that's a process that likely takes a decade or longer.
  114. # [13:23] <annevk> This is a very different model from older specifications.
  115. # [13:24] <annevk> Older specifications were mostly finished in terms of features. And where then rubberstamped with a W3C sticker on top.
  116. # [13:24] <Lachy_> it's similar to the model used for CSS2.1, but even that's gradually failing
  117. # [13:24] <annevk> And never took much implementation experience into account etc.
  118. # [13:24] <Lachy_> HTML4 advocates still refuse to take implementation experience into account
  119. # [13:25] <Lachy_> XHTML2 advocates as well
  120. # [13:27] <MichaelMH> Do I need to be advance in javascript to use canvas?
  121. # [13:27] <Lachy_> you can get libraries that do a lot of the difficult work for you, depending on what you want to do
  122. # [13:27] <annevk> You need to understand some of the basics, yes.
  123. # [13:27] <Lachy_> e.g. PlotKit is really simple and easy to understand if you want to draw a graph
  124. # [13:27] <annevk> But there's lots of tutorials out there
  125. # [13:28] <Lachy_> but to build a game like Doom in Canvas, you need to be a genius like Philip`
  126. # [13:28] <met_> yes Doom in cavas is great 8-)
  127. # [13:28] <met_> *canvas
  128. # [13:29] <MichaelMH> doom in canvas?
  129. # [13:29] <met_> any idea when it become multiplayer? 8-)
  130. # [13:29] <MichaelMH> link me =0
  131. # [13:29] <virtuelv> MichaelMH: there's several
  132. # [13:29] * Lachy_ is looking for the link
  133. # [13:29] <met_> MichaelMH http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/84/play.xhtml
  134. # [13:29] <Lachy_> that's it
  135. # [13:29] <met_> and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml
  136. # [13:29] <virtuelv> and http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/canvascape/
  137. # [13:32] <MichaelMH> witchcraft
  138. # [13:40] <Lachy_> here's a pre-canvas attempt at a 3d game http://www.sylloge.com/5k/entries/232/domaze5k.htm
  139. # [13:40] <Philip`> met_: I've thought about adding multiplayer, but sadly not had the time to implement it :-(
  140. # [13:41] <Philip`> (There isn't really any complicated JS, though - most of the non-trivial bits are just the maths in the raycasting/rendering part)
  141. # [13:42] <met_> Philip`, keeping fingers crossed you early have!
  142. # [13:44] <virtuelv> met_: 84/ - really quite smooth in Opera
  143. # [13:44] <virtuelv> but it makes my CPU bleed
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  145. # [13:46] <MichaelMH> yeeeah. just made my first rectangle with canvas
  146. # [13:46] <MichaelMH> its immense
  147. # [13:46] <MichaelMH> best rectangle ever.
  148. # [13:46] <Philip`> There's not much point having a fast CPU if you don't want to actually use it to its full extent :-)
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  150. # [13:48] <Philip`> Even normal Doom isn't incredibly smooth on my computer - admittedly that's running at 1280x960 and inside Wine, and the original was a bit faster, but still the JS version isn't too awful in comparison...
  151. # [13:51] <MichaelMH> is the drawing paths stuff just like dot to dot?
  152. # [13:51] <annevk> MichaelMH, yeah
  153. # [13:51] <annevk> MichaelMH, the nice thing about <canvas> is creating images easily without a graphics editor
  154. # [13:52] <annevk> when you're done you just invoke toDataURL() and save the resulting URL as a PNG :)
  155. # [13:52] <MichaelMH> =0 thats so cool.
  156. # [13:52] <MichaelMH> I'm going to attempt a star
  157. # [13:52] <Lachy_> annevk, if you call writing a script to draw an image, easier than working with photoshop, then ok
  158. # [13:52] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2006/08-paintr21 has a simple sample of that
  159. # [13:53] <annevk> Lachy_, well, I don't have photoshop :)
  160. # [13:53] <Lachy_> ah, ok
  161. # [13:53] <virtuelv> a slightly more complex example, http://widgets.opera.com/widget/4647
  162. # [13:53] <Lachy_> MS Paint is pretty good though
  163. # [13:54] <annevk> MS paint is web stuff now
  164. # [13:54] <annevk> photoshop is next
  165. # [13:54] <MichaelMH> yeah if ms paint had multiple levels of transparancy and layers then it would be such a good pixel art tool
  166. # [13:54] <met_> annevk, Paintr excellent idea 8-)
  167. # [13:55] <Lachy_> that's awesome! data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAMgAAADICAYAAACtWK6eAAAL2UlEQVR4nO3dy28TVxsG8OccOyQOQSWBCBoIAhqgZQMIBF0UqFq6KeqGZRewasuOXaXSPyBhB91FLNoFLIAlLQKJXihNLxEI2NGSoBJKgBYIYBQHHPt8i3xncIzzJrbHc449z0+yuCgevx77mffMmUuUMcaAiErSrgsg8hkDQiRgQIgEDAiRgAEhEjAgRAIGhEjAgBAJGBAiAQNCJGBAiAQMCJGAASESMCBEAgaESMCAEAkYECIBA0IkYECIBAwIkYABIRIwIEQCBoRIwIAQCRgQIgEDQiRgQIgEDAiRgAEhEjAgRAIGhEjAgBAJGBAiAQNCJGBAiAQMCJGAASESMCBEAgaESMCAE
  168. # [13:55] <Lachy_> AkYECIBA0IkYECIBAwIkYABIRIwIEQCBoRIwIAQCRgQIgEDQiRgQIgEDAiRgAEhEjAgRAIGJEJ9fX344osvXJdBZUi6LqBRnDlzBnv37sXExETwf62trQCAjo4OAMDIyAgOHDjgpD6qDDtIFc6cOYOOjg4opbB79248fPgQExMTyGazyGazyGQyyGQySKfTSKfT2LBhA3bu3Om6bCdOnToFrbX4SCQSrst8lfGMUspEWVZ/f79pamoyWuuSj0Qi8cpDa20ABI/29nbz3XffRVZzPTlx4kTwmc7l4RvvKopiRfX395tkMjmnD0wpVfLBUMyucEOilDInT56c9We11hFWODuvAlLNSjp06JDRWs/4hS61FUsmk6a/v78G74Ts+lZKmRMnTszpOT6GxJuAVLJybCjm2r4ZitpLpVLBuq7ki26Ddfr06RpU
  169. # [13:55] <Lachy_> Vz5ljDFh79dUQikFALDlaD3z/EFxyVpr9Pb24vPPP69dgTQj+1kVfi6pVArj4+NlL+vbb7/FRx99BKUU8vl8aDVWyouAXLx4ETt27Ji2UmxgZsJQ+KPwswrji621hpka3VRbWtW8OA5ipz4vXLgQ/J8PK4fmJuzPqqWlBZlMBq2trRV1oTA57yClugeRUsqL74TzA4WlugcR4McownkH8Wm8Sf7w5XvhvIMQldLS0gLg5flsrjjvIMXTu0SWD/shTjvIwMAAgNmndCmelFLON5xOA7J9+3YAUzNZcaa15kaiBB+GWc6GWAMDA3jnnXect1AfJBIJ5PN5aK2Ry+Vcl+MV18MsZx2E3eOlXC4HrXUQkmXLlrkuySsuh1nOOogv03g+sZ3EUkrh9ddfx507dxxW5Zbr7wmneT2Sy+VgjEFXV1ewgzo6Ogq
  170. # [13:55] <Lachy_> llHjyJtUO17qH7ty5g3w+/0pYlFJoampyXV6k7OSFq8txGRDP2bB88sknUEphcnISWmt8+umnrkuLhJ20cLWTzn2QOtPU1ITJyUkAiM2sl8vvCjtInclms8Fwy856HT9+3HVZDctZB+EpJtWbN28estksgKnO8uLFC8cV1UZsOwiPHlfnxYsXOHbsGICpzqK1xsqVK90W1WCcdJBkMolcLof3338f58+fn/Hnwpja1FoHY/ZGVuoYyl9//YWenh6HVYXDZQdxEpDZhleLFi3Co0ePavK6S5cuxejoaOjL9sXKlSsxMjISrNtGCEqshli7du0CUHpe+8qVK9BaB+Ho6OgIVkw1j0QiERxLuHv3LpRSft7mMgR///038vk8bty4EbznNWvWQGtd1yFxJfIOUmprkEwmgwNjQDh3xphJV1cX7t27F8wEff
  171. # [13:55] <annevk> dude
  172. # [13:55] <Lachy_> 3119i3b19NXssHQ0NDWLt27bT1XW/Tw7EaYtk3a0/Om1aMUrh8+TI2bdpU8zriMgNUqKenBzdv3py2IbJ/+hyYWA2xrHw+Hwx17JvP5/ORhAOYmgH65ptvAEzNADXqkKvQ0NBQcOwEwLT17vP7j9XZvHZr4NN1IIVdzectaS3Y9w5MdZJbt26hu7vbcVUvtba2IpPJOPu+RN5B7IcxODgY9UvPyG5Vfd+S1oLd97NBWbFihVfrIJPJAHB3LlbkAbFXiG3ZsiXqlxYVX7S0f/9+1yVFKpfLYWRkJNhS21PsXYbFDgVTqZSzGpwMsQYHB70LiFV8wC2RSMTiQGOh4nXgYuj5yy+/BFedxmofpF7Yo/1W3PdPovyaFAbU9Xrn2bwzmJychDEGn332WTDs8GlsHgU71IrSr7/+GoTj4sWLzjdK7CBzFNc7j
  173. # [13:56] <Lachy_> 0R5DMKnzmGxg8xRLpcLOsnQ0JDrchrO77//HoRjYGDAi3AA7CBlGRoawpo1a7w6hlNrUXQQHzuHxQ5Shp6enmkHOnnyX/VsOJRS+O2337wKB+DJb5iqJ7lcDj09PRgeHsbw8DASiYR3H2q9GBwcDMLha0fmEKsKcThFpZZDLLvsP/74A1u3bg19+WFgQKrU6NfW1yog9TIryH2QKvG6+vJdvnw5GFL5HA6A+yAUseIZK9/5XyE1jMIZq0uXLnnfPQB2EBKMjY2Ftu9RL/scxRgQKqm5uTm4DLnac9DqNRwAh1hVa9TZK3u9/qNHj6o63f/atWvBsKrewgEwIBU7d+5csJNZDzublWpvb6/q+fYeA1euXAmjnMjxOEgF2tvb8fjxYwDAwoULMTY25rii8FV7fKfwZhzVLMe1xt301YjWOgjH2bNnGzIc
  174. # [13:56] <Lachy_> X375JYDq9j0Kw1HPx4rYQebI3l0D8O+M07BV0z0q6Rz2OeWK4r7L7CCz6Ovrg9Y6uPVMb29vQ4fD/oq3gwcPVvT8cjvHP//8E9xZpdyHvUZn3rx5FdU6F+wggsKjvqlUCuPj444rqr1q9z1mO3eruFvYv9++fRvLly8v67WK7xtga29paQnts2IHKeH7778PbgFkbwAdh3A8e/YMQGX7HolEYtpNHmb6meJuAUyFqtxwAC/vG2C7nl2m7fZaayxcuLDs5RYqu4P09fXhyZMn6O3treqFfdXZ2YkHDx4AABYvXoz//vvPcUXRsVvkdDqNtra2sp5bHI7i4VVhGGo9RE2lUpiYmAj+vXr1agwPD1e0rIo6yKFDh/Dhhx/iq6++quhFfbRjxw5orYNwnD9/PlbhePbsGXK5HBKJRNnhKKV4fwGIbnIjk8n
  175. # [13:56] <Lachy_> AGINFixYBAG7evAmlFJqbm9Hd3Y0LFy7MfWGmTD/++KN5++23DQDT1dVV7tO9cvjwYaOUMgCCh9badVlO2PWQTqddlxK61atXG6WU0VoH71MpZV577TWzbt06c/To0RmfW3ZArLVr1xoAZv78+Wb+/Pnmvffeq3RRkWtubp4WCqWU2b59u+uynGlvbzcAzIIFC1yXEomffvrJdHd3m7a2NrNgwQKjtTYff/xxyZ+teCf9gw8+QFtbG7LZLMbHx/HDDz9g/fr1lS6u5u7fvw+tNZRSeP78OYCpE/LM/2////PPPzuu0J2xsTEopfD06VPXpURi586dGBkZQTqdxtOnT3Hy5MmZ72gfVirfeustA8C88cYbYS2yav/+++8rQyillDl8+LDr0rxx5MgRA8AcOXLEdSleCvU4iL3bB+D+9ILit6WUwt27d7
  176. # [13:56] <Philip`> That's not working so well in IRC
  177. # [13:56] * met_ considering Lachy_
  178. # [13:56] <Lachy_> FkyRJHFfnJzlyF+DVoKKEfKHzzzTfx559/hrnIiimlcP/+fXR2drouxVuNftOJaoV+wdT169fDXiTVyLJlywAAK1ascFyJv3gkPabWrVuH0dFRdHV14datW67L8RbPxYopl785tp6wg8TQxo0bYYzB5s2bXZfiPQYkZrZt24Zr165hw4YNuHTpkutyvMeAxMiePXswODiIrVu34urVq67LqQvcB4mRzs5OPH78OLhjCc2O98WKkY6OjppefdeIGJAYWbVqFZ48eeK6jLrCgMTIu+++y4CUifsgRALOYhEJGBAiAQNCJGBAiAQMCJGAASESMCBEAgaESMCAEAkYECIBA0IkYECIBAwIkYABIRIwIEQCBoRIwIAQCRgQIgEDQiRgQIgEDAiRgAEhEjAgRAIGhEjAgBAJGBAiAQNCJGBAiAQMCJGAASESM
  179. # [13:56] * annevk wonders where the bot is that kicks Lachy_ for spamming
  180. # [13:56] <Lachy_> CBEAgaESMCAEAkYECIBA0IkYECIBAwIkYABIRIwIEQCBoRIwIAQCRgQIgEDQiRgQIgEDAiRgAEhEjAgRAIGhEjAgBAJGBAiAQNCJGBAiAQMCJGAASESMCBEAgaESMCAEAkYECIBA0IkYECIBAwIkYABIRIwIEQCBoRIwIAQCRgQIgEDQiT4H/chN4QySzv4AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
  181. # [13:56] <Lachy_> woah!, sorry
  182. # [13:56] <Lachy_> didn't realise it was that long :-)
  183. # [13:56] <met_> we did 8-)
  184. # [13:56] <annevk> that's why you save it and then upload it :)
  185. # [13:56] <Philip`> Run optipng on it first :-)
  186. # [13:57] <MichaelMH> ... what is that mess?
  187. # [13:57] <annevk> a URL
  188. # [13:57] <Lachy_> it's a data: URI
  189. # [13:57] <Lachy_> copy and paste, and then stick all the bits together
  190. # [13:57] <MichaelMH> I don't think my address bar would explode
  191. # [13:58] <MichaelMH> i mean.. I do* think
  192. # [13:58] <annevk> neh
  193. # [13:58] <annevk> maybe in IE
  194. # [13:58] <MichaelMH> lol
  195. # [13:58] <annevk> the URL limit in other browsers has been extended specifically for data URLs
  196. # [13:59] <Philip`> Aha, it works - "5 7 2"
  197. # [13:59] <annevk> hah, only Opera can render Henri's thesis in its preferred format
  198. # [13:59] <annevk> (with a released version that is)
  199. # [13:59] <annevk> (released non-beta)
  200. # [14:00] <annevk> (the amount of disclaimers you need to not end up in a flame war...)
  201. # [14:00] <Lachy_> http://tinyurl.com/3x7b25 will redirect to it, but only seems to work in Opera
  202. # [14:00] <Lachy_> http://tinyurl.com/3x7b25
  203. # [14:00] <MichaelMH> 5 72?
  204. # [14:00] <Lachy_> 5 > 2
  205. # [14:00] <MichaelMH> 5 > 2? no way
  206. # [14:01] <annevk> 5 > 2 (?)
  207. # [14:01] <met_> (?) 5 > 5
  208. # [14:01] <MichaelMH> i've seen that on a t-shirt
  209. # [14:01] <Lachy_> there's a tshirt for it too
  210. # [14:01] <MichaelMH> cus I was linked to it from the blog.
  211. # [14:01] <MichaelMH> I don't know what it means tho
  212. # [14:01] <Lachy_> it's an obvious mathematical statement
  213. # [14:01] <met_> anyone to produce some webbutton with 5 > 2 theme?
  214. # [14:01] <met_> something like all Valid HTML buttons
  215. # [14:02] <Lachy_> although, there are some people who like to write it as 5 < 2, they're just weird and can be ignored ;-)
  216. # [14:02] <annevk> <a rel=vote href=http://www.whatwg.org/>5 > 2</a> will be good enough
  217. # [14:02] <annevk> Lachy_, hey!
  218. # [14:02] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  219. # [14:02] * annevk did that
  220. # [14:03] <annevk> during my HTML5 talk, even
  221. # [14:03] <MichaelMH> is it cheating if I draw my star in flash first then find out where the points are...?
  222. # [14:03] <Philip`> Yes :-)
  223. # [14:03] <Philip`> Draw it on a piece of paper, and draw a rough grid and guess the coordinates - that's almost as easy :-)
  224. # [14:04] <annevk> my house rules allow that though
  225. # [14:04] <MichaelMH> ... but isnt that just doing the exact same thing as drawing it in flash
  226. # [14:04] <annevk> for when there's no paper
  227. # [14:08] <MichaelMH> uh oh
  228. # [14:08] <MichaelMH> thats not a star
  229. # [14:12] <MichaelMH> yeeaaah: http://www.michaelmh.com/stuff/newbie/canvas.html the points are a bit iffy because I cheated
  230. # [14:13] <Philip`> It's not a very nice colour, though :-(
  231. # [14:14] <Lachy> MichaelMH, there are algorithms for drawing stars without having to enter the points manually
  232. # [14:15] <MichaelMH> um...
  233. # [14:16] <MichaelMH> I enter the points manually, its just my style.
  234. # [14:17] <Philip`> If your aim is not specifically to draw lots of stars, then just writing the coordinates seems quite reasonable
  235. # [14:18] <Lachy> yeah, entering points is fine just for experementation with canvas
  236. # [14:18] <Philip`> (and then it avoids the unhelpful complexity of star-drawing algorithms)
  237. # [14:19] <MichaelMH> did one of you change my site to lite pink?
  238. # [14:19] * Joins: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net)
  239. # [14:20] <Lachy> MichaelMH, what?
  240. # [14:20] <Philip`> Not me
  241. # [14:21] <Philip`> It's a nice shade, though
  242. # [14:21] <MichaelMH> lol never mind. it was last nite
  243. # [14:22] <Lachy> your homepage is broken. http://www.michaelmh.com/ It doesn't work with styles disabled
  244. # [14:22] <MichaelMH> my homepage is oooolldd.
  245. # [14:22] <MichaelMH> I don't do anything to that anymore.
  246. # [14:22] <Lachy> yeah, it looks like you didn't realise you could style anything but divs
  247. # [14:23] <MichaelMH> ahem.
  248. # [14:24] <MichaelMH> I think when i made that I wanted a way for the roll over images to load before you rolled over them... because then theres a short moment when its just blank
  249. # [14:24] <MichaelMH> im making my star my homepage.. you've upset me
  250. # [14:25] <Lachy> there are ways to combine both images into one, and then switch it by changing background poisition
  251. # [14:25] * Joins: yod (n=ot@bas11-montreal02-1128531044.dsl.bell.ca)
  252. # [14:26] <MichaelMH> cunning
  253. # [14:26] <MichaelMH> have the main image on top of the roll over one and then when you rolled over the top image it would go transparent
  254. # [14:27] <MichaelMH> hmm.. there was a start to that sentence but it disapeared..
  255. # [14:27] <MichaelMH> stick "my idea was to" infront of that sentence and it should make sense-ish.
  256. # [14:27] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  257. # [14:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  258. # [14:33] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  259. # [14:52] <MichaelMH> my next picture is gonna be insane* (*may actually be quite reasonable)
  260. # [14:55] * Philip` wonders if there's adequate documentation for <canvas>, or if more tutorials/references/examples/etc would be worthwhile
  261. # [14:56] <met_> there on mozilla.org you know probably
  262. # [14:57] <MichaelMH> yeah Im reading the one on mozilla
  263. # [14:58] <met_> met_ this was for Philip` 8-)
  264. # [14:59] <Philip`> I just don't know whether that stuff is useful for people who are new to it, and I have the wrong perspective now to read it and see for myself :-)
  265. # [14:59] * Joins: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d51A5CE12.access.telenet.be)
  266. # [15:00] <MichaelMH> I'm following it ok
  267. # [15:00] <MichaelMH> Although I wish it would tell you how to change the fill colour sooner..
  268. # [15:01] <MichaelMH> anyone care to tell me that btw?
  269. # [15:01] <Philip`> ctx.fillStyle = 'magenta'
  270. # [15:01] <met_> when i learned canvas, the http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Canvas_tutorial was good as hello world
  271. # [15:01] <met_> but there is missing the next step
  272. # [15:01] <met_> the step between hello world canvas and Doom in canvas i mean 8-)
  273. # [15:02] <Philip`> (or any other colour name (like 'rgba(128, 128, 128, 0.5)' or '#ff0000' etc), theoretically using the CSS3 Color syntax though that's not supported by every browser)
  274. # [15:04] <Philip`> met_: Perhaps something like a simple 2D platform game? That might cover lots of the interesting issues (like animation, handling input, managing multiple images, loading map data, etc) without being overwhelming
  275. # [15:04] <MichaelMH> ...snap
  276. # [15:04] <MichaelMH> go for it phill
  277. # [15:04] <met_> Philip`, good idea
  278. # [15:05] * Philip` has no time to work on anything now, though :-p
  279. # [15:05] <met_> Philip`, some tic-tac-toe, pacman or something like this
  280. # [15:06] * jdandrea suggests Tetravex (if only he had cycles to write it himself - but then the code must exist somewhere ...)
  281. # [15:06] <met_> met_, or even simple "escape from 2d maze"
  282. # [15:06] <met_> just somethinf intercative, not only painting circles and rectangles
  283. # [15:06] <jdandrea> Ah! There is a JavaScript version - see external links - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TetraVex
  284. # [15:06] <Philip`> (The situation will be much worse for newcomers with the 3D canvas, I would expect - hopefully someone will make a nice library to hide the details so nobody else needs to care)
  285. # [15:07] <jdandrea> met_: Got it. Was thinking this could be spiffed up a bit though. Hmm. A Rubik's Cube?
  286. # [15:07] <met_> jdandrea, there are many, e.g. http://www.schillmania.com/arkanoid/arkanoid.html
  287. # [15:08] <jdandrea> Aye.
  288. # [15:08] <jdandrea> Trying to brainstorm s'more here ...
  289. # [15:09] <met_> better start with somethin 2d than 3d rubiccube
  290. # [15:10] <met_> 3d is for advanded 8-)
  291. # [15:10] <met_> *advanced
  292. # [15:10] <jdandrea> Point taken.
  293. # [15:10] <Philip`> 3D is really nasty in the 2D canvas, so it's probably best to avoid ever doing that :-)
  294. # [15:10] <jdandrea> hehe
  295. # [15:11] <jdandrea> I've seen the cube splayed (sic?) though, so you don't have to see it rotate. Anyway, it's a thought. :)
  296. # [15:11] <met_> any simple game that is on world smallest website is suitable http://www.guimp.com/pong.html
  297. # [15:12] <jdandrea> ROTFL - nice.
  298. # [15:12] <met_> there are about ten
  299. # [15:12] <virtuelv> there is also http://virtuelvis.com/download/2005/10/mandelbrot/
  300. # [15:13] <virtuelv> (Haven't tested if it works properly in ages though. First thing I ever did in canvas)
  301. # [15:13] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  302. # [15:13] <met_> virtuelv, nice
  303. # [15:14] * met_ do not inderstand fractals anyway but they are nice
  304. # [15:14] <virtuelv> some more stuff here: http://virtuelvis.com/gallery/canvas/searchlight.html
  305. # [15:14] <virtuelv> err, http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2005/12/canvas-image-manipulation I meant
  306. # [15:15] <met_> let's put all there links on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Main_Page
  307. # [15:15] <met_> create some canvas page
  308. # [15:18] <MichaelMH> umm
  309. # [15:18] <MichaelMH> when I do moveTo then make a circle I just get a circle with a line going to the moveTo point
  310. # [15:19] * zcorpan finds a blog entry entitled "The and Element" from Lachy in opera's feed reader
  311. # [15:20] * zcorpan wonders whether it's the feed or opera that is broken
  312. # [15:20] <Lachy> zcorpan, it could be the feed, but I suspect it's Opera. Firefox displays it properly
  313. # [15:20] <Lachy> though, it's RSS 2.0, so who knows?
  314. # [15:20] <met_> google reader has it broken too
  315. # [15:21] <Lachy> I really must upgrade Word Press one day. Does the latest one output Atom 1.0?
  316. # [15:21] <met_> and it results in the 'The * and Elements' on my google reader shared page http://www.google.com/reader/shared/13885598797767922370
  317. # [15:22] <Philip`> MichaelMH: Are you trying to move the centre of the circle? You would have to either change the coordinates or call translate() to do that
  318. # [15:23] <zcorpan> Lachy: your blog entry doesn't discuss what to do with <em> and <strong> though
  319. # [15:24] <zcorpan> Lachy: i.e., should they be synonyms with <i> and <b> or be more specific semantics as currently defined?
  320. # [15:24] <Lachy> it was only about The <b> and <i> elements
  321. # [15:24] <zcorpan> yeah. ok
  322. # [15:24] <Lachy> I made the assumption that they would keep their current definitions of emphasis and importance for now
  323. # [15:25] <MichaelMH> oh is the x and y position in the circle thingy
  324. # [15:25] <MichaelMH> ok I got it now
  325. # [15:27] <zcorpan> Lachy: ah, the "The and Elements" was via google blog search
  326. # [15:27] <zcorpan> Lachy: your original feed entry shows up as "The <b> and <i> Elements" in opera
  327. # [15:29] <Lachy> I could take out the < and >, which would work around the problem, but then those services probably won't update the feed anyway
  328. # [15:30] <zcorpan> Lachy: don't, revealing bugs is a good thing :)
  329. # [15:30] <Lachy> yeah, I know
  330. # [15:30] <Lachy> but there are so many bugs with RSS implementations that haven't been fixed
  331. # [15:31] <Lachy> I bet it was caused by a complete lack of test cases too
  332. # [16:00] <MichaelMH> http://www.michaelmh.com/stuff/newbie/man.html
  333. # [16:01] <annevk> it's not like there's an RSS spec
  334. # [16:01] <annevk> that's actually good
  335. # [16:01] <annevk> so far RSS is much like HTML4
  336. # [16:01] <annevk> "eating resources"
  337. # [16:02] <MichaelMH> uh oh I forgot eyebrows
  338. # [16:05] <MichaelMH> I was going to have semicircle ear lopes but it messed up
  339. # [16:07] <Lachy> annevk, is the Atom spec much better quality?
  340. # [16:13] <MichaelMH> oohh.. does 5 > 2 mean HTML5 > XHTML2?
  341. # [16:13] <MichaelMH> sorry I was a bit slow there
  342. # [16:13] <Lachy> yes
  343. # [16:15] <MichaelMH> I don't think the general public will understand if I wore a t-shirt that said "5 > 2"
  344. # [16:15] <met_> interesting question from one Czech webdesigner, but I do not know the answer, if html5 specify how browsers shodl handle tag soup, errors etc, where is the limit?
  345. # [16:16] <Lachy> the limit of what?
  346. # [16:16] <met_> where is the limit of what if HTML (and should be parsed as html) and what not
  347. # [16:16] <met_> <p><i>is HTML</p> (wrong but is)
  348. # [16:16] <met_> andwhat 3434iu3i4ur890ewe#$#$#$<4340390we>r9er0e9r0
  349. # [16:16] <Lachy> the spec needs to define everything that is required for browsers to handle any given input stream
  350. # [16:16] <met_> is there any defined limit, some border? 8-)
  351. # [16:16] <Lachy> no
  352. # [16:17] <Lachy> the algorithm should handle all possible input streams
  353. # [16:17] <met_> sounds brave
  354. # [16:17] <Lachy> handling all possible input isn't the problem, it's defining what to do with it that's tedious
  355. # [16:18] <annevk> Lachy, not really
  356. # [16:18] <Lachy> see http://www.w3.org/mid/463C6E54.1040300@cam.ac.uk
  357. # [16:19] <annevk> it doesn't actually define nesting depths though and such
  358. # [16:19] <annevk> which sensible implementations likely have
  359. # [16:19] <annevk> (html5lib is not one of those)
  360. # [16:20] <Lachy> really? Firefox, I think, handles quite a large nesting depth. I don't know what its upper limit is
  361. # [16:20] <annevk> I'm not sure what your "really?" question is about
  362. # [16:20] <Lachy> do they really have limits
  363. # [16:21] <Lachy> I suppose, memory constraints would be the issue
  364. # [16:21] <annevk> you don't want a browser to hang
  365. # [16:22] <annevk> that would make it impopular
  366. # [16:22] <Lachy> Hixie has a test somewhere that tests excessive nesting of elements
  367. # [16:22] <annevk> does it test whether they're nested or just whether the browser doesn't hang?
  368. # [16:22] <Lachy> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/html/parsing/compat/001.html
  369. # [16:23] <annevk> k
  370. # [16:26] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  371. # [16:26] <Lachy> Safari crashes :-(
  372. # [16:27] <MichaelMH> woah canvas lines look smoother in safari
  373. # [16:31] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("bye")
  374. # [16:32] <annevk> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/quirks-mode.html
  375. # [16:32] <annevk> I don't everything mentioned there applies to all browsers though
  376. # [16:32] <annevk> such as box model and dimensions for inline elements
  377. # [16:33] <Lachy> it says right at the top "not all browsers exhibit all of these features:"
  378. # [16:34] <annevk> it sometimes calls out the differences though
  379. # [16:36] <zcorpan> annevk: wow, that's useful
  380. # [16:39] <MichaelMH> yo. shouldnt this make a semi-circle? ctx.arc(90,65,20,0,180,false);
  381. # [16:41] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  382. # [16:43] <Philip`> MichaelMH: The angles are measured in radians (2*Math.PI per circle) rather than degrees (360 per circle), so you'd have to do arc(x, y, r, 0, Math.PI, false)
  383. # [16:46] <MichaelMH> ic..I'm not very good at math =\
  384. # [16:47] <MichaelMH> the bezier and quadratic curves are pretty damn awesome tho
  385. # [16:48] <Philip`> (You can do "function deg2rad(deg) { return deg*Math.PI/180 }" or something if you have to convert angles)
  386. # [16:48] <MichaelMH> I might redo my man with them
  387. # [16:48] <Philip`> I've never actually looked at either of them, so I have no idea what they're like
  388. # [16:49] <MichaelMH> looked at what?
  389. # [16:49] <virtuelv> god, some things are so broken
  390. # [16:49] <Philip`> Bezier/quadratic curves
  391. # [16:49] <virtuelv> s/god/FSM/
  392. # [16:49] <virtuelv> How to create input type="radio" by script in IE:
  393. # [16:49] <virtuelv> newRadioButton = document.createElement("<INPUT TYPE='RADIO' NAME='RADIOTEST' VALUE='Second Choice'>")
  394. # [16:50] <MichaelMH> its like lineTo with added wobble
  395. # [16:52] <Philip`> I guess the spec ought to define precisely what it means by "quadratic curve", since it's not an obvious term (or at least not one I've heard) - but I'm still trying to work through all the earlier sections so I'll happily ignore it for now
  396. # [16:52] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net)
  397. # [16:54] <MichaelMH> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Canvas_tutorial:Drawing_shapes#Bezier_and_quadratic_curves
  398. # [16:56] <MichaelMH> is there a way to group a bunch of coordinates and move them all at once across x and y
  399. # [16:57] <Philip`> ctx.save(); ctx.translate(dx, dy); /* draw lots of stuff */; ctx.restore();
  400. # [16:57] <Philip`> though I think Firefox applies the translation when you create points, whereas Opera applies the translation when you do the fill/stroke
  401. # [16:58] <Philip`> (and Safari might match Firefox's behaviour, and the spec currently matches Opera's, but it's quite possible the spec will change)
  402. # [16:58] <Philip`> (if I remember correctly)
  403. # [17:00] <annevk> are you sure Safari matches Firefox?
  404. # [17:00] * annevk thought it matched Opera
  405. # [17:01] <Philip`> Not at all sure - I've never tested it, and I just vaguely remember people mentioning something but I don't know exactly what
  406. # [17:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net)
  407. # [17:12] <MichaelMH> hmm..
  408. # [17:12] * Joins: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-ff66af3665ec1821)
  409. # [17:18] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@posom.com)
  410. # [17:18] <MichaelMH> i think the curve thing would be easier if cp1x, cp1y, cp2x, cp2y was relative to x and y
  411. # [17:21] <Philip`> You could perhaps write "var x = whatever, y = whatever; ctx.bezierCurveTo(cp1x+x, cp1y+y, cp2x+x, cp2y+y, x, y)"
  412. # [17:22] <MichaelMH> hmm
  413. # [17:23] <MichaelMH> i'll try that after I've finished my "M"
  414. # [17:30] <MichaelMH> yeeeeeeeaah: http://www.michaelmh.com/stuff/newbie/M.html
  415. # [17:32] * Philip` wonders if it'd be possible to do a whole TTF font this way
  416. # [17:33] <MichaelMH> TTF font?
  417. # [17:34] <MichaelMH> yo, you know how Im making a fill then sticking a stroke onto of it
  418. # [17:34] <MichaelMH> is there anyway to make the fill have a border
  419. # [17:35] <Philip`> That's just the usual format for defining fonts built out of lines and Bezier curves
  420. # [17:36] <Philip`> You can just call "ctx.fill(); ctx.stroke()" - the fill shouldn't affect the current path
  421. # [17:37] <MichaelMH> oh yeah silly me, I should of tryed that
  422. # [17:37] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  423. # [17:42] <MichaelMH> howcome you can draw a rectangle but not a cricle, triangle.. teapot and otehr stuff
  424. # [17:44] <Philip`> Probably because rectangles are a very common case, so it's worth having a function for them (instead of requiring moveTo/lineTo combinations), whereas shapes like triangles are much rarer and you can just make them out of lines
  425. # [17:44] <Philip`> The lack of circle seems kind of irritating to me, since arc(..., 0, 2*Math.PI, false) isn't very elegant, though at least you can define your own circle function if you want
  426. # [17:45] <Philip`> I think teapots lack significant reason to be included :-)
  427. # [17:45] <MichaelMH> I think wanting to draw a "M" would also be common
  428. # [17:46] <Philip`> Text would be good, but the spec says "drawing text is not supported in this version of the API (there is no way to predict what metrics the fonts will have, which makes fonts very hard to use for painting)"
  429. # [17:47] <MichaelMH> ic
  430. # [17:47] <Philip`> (I think some people have liked the idea of being able to draw an arbitrary HTML element into the canvas, in which case you could do text by just creating it in HTML/CSS then copying it)
  431. # [17:49] * zcorpan points to http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=31
  432. # [17:51] <Philip`> Oh, that might be the thing I remembered talking about the "Firefox-ish / Safari-ish" way of doing transformations, as opposed to the Opera-ish / spec-ish way
  433. # [18:04] <jgraham> Would anyone like to try and break http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/parsetree.html?
  434. # [18:05] <MichaelMH> omg, excitement. I'm on the gradient section.
  435. # [18:06] * jgraham instantly finds a trivial bug
  436. # [18:06] <zcorpan> jgraham: simple! http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Carticle%3E ;)
  437. # [18:06] <jgraham> zcorpan: Take that up with Hixie ;)
  438. # [18:06] <zcorpan> yeah yeah :)
  439. # [18:07] <jgraham> Although the traceback shouldn't be displayed
  440. # [18:07] <jgraham> I think I will just disable the NotImplementedError in html5lib
  441. # [18:08] <Lachy> jgraham, couldn't you implement that as some sort of non-fatal warning instead
  442. # [18:08] <met_> looks nice
  443. # [18:09] <annevk> jgraham, yeah, just change the inbody methoddispatcher thingie
  444. # [18:09] <jgraham> Lachy: I was thinking of writing a warning to sys.stderr
  445. # [18:09] <annevk> Lachy, no, too much hassle for little value
  446. # [18:09] <annevk> (imo)
  447. # [18:09] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  448. # [18:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  449. # [18:10] <zcorpan> you could treat them as "anything else", but that's not what the current spec says...
  450. # [18:10] <annevk> the current spec says "red blob" iirc
  451. # [18:10] <zcorpan> yeah
  452. # [18:10] <annevk> which makes the "anything else" cause plausible
  453. # [18:11] <Lachy> yeah, anything else makes sense until their handling is actually defined
  454. # [18:11] <met_> jgraham, on top of the result page can be page-navigation? like #input-document, #parse-tree, #output-innerHTML, #parse-errors
  455. # [18:11] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Client Quit)
  456. # [18:11] <met_> for long document it is too scrolling
  457. # [18:11] <Lachy> though, you could implement things like <section> just like div, and then provide implementation feedback
  458. # [18:12] <met_> jgraham, see the id are already there
  459. # [18:13] <annevk> Lachy, I suppose we could experiment yes, if we want to do that kind of thing
  460. # [18:13] <annevk> in that case we should also implement <!-->, </br> and </p> I think
  461. # [18:13] <zcorpan> <p><table>?
  462. # [18:13] <Lachy> zcorpan, no
  463. # [18:14] <Lachy> that would have to be quirks only, I think
  464. # [18:14] <met_> and from parse errors list hyperlings to the lines in input document with errors should be great 8-)
  465. # [18:14] <annevk> we're not going to have a quirks only parser
  466. # [18:14] <annevk> hopefully
  467. # [18:14] <annevk> so if <p><table> is needed so be it
  468. # [18:14] <zcorpan> Lachy: if it's required for quirks, why not just require it?
  469. # [18:14] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@odin.landmark.edu)
  470. # [18:14] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@odin.landmark.edu) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  471. # [18:14] <Lachy> the problem is that making table a child of p, instead of a sibling, could potentially break many standards pages
  472. # [18:14] * annevk doesn't think it's required for quirks though
  473. # [18:15] <zcorpan> Lachy: it would only break acid2... :) other standards pages don't omit </p> except for mine and annevk's
  474. # [18:15] <annevk> maybe it is
  475. # [18:16] <annevk> opera does
  476. # [18:16] <annevk> data:text/html,<!doctype html><style>p>table{background:lime}</style><p><table><tr><td>test
  477. # [18:16] <annevk> and
  478. # [18:16] <annevk> data:text/html,<style>p>table{background:lime}</style><p><table><tr><td>test
  479. # [18:16] <annevk> different
  480. # [18:17] <zcorpan> annevk: perhaps you could try to remove it from quirks in opera and see if anyone complains? :)
  481. # [18:17] <zcorpan> or vice versa
  482. # [18:18] <annevk> hah
  483. # [18:18] <annevk> you try :p
  484. # [18:18] <zcorpan> :)
  485. # [18:18] <Lachy> zcorpan, you'd be surprised, actually. There are a lot of pages that do <p> <table>...</table> </p>, even if they use standards mode
  486. # [18:18] <Lachy> That's actually a common question on www-validator about why the </p> is in error
  487. # [18:19] <zcorpan> Lachy: right. isn't that an argument to make <p><table> parsing as it is in quirks?
  488. # [18:19] <MichaelMH> well a much urgent issue. I tryed to apply a gradient to my M and it disapeared
  489. # [18:19] <MichaelMH> much more*
  490. # [18:19] <Lachy> no, because it could potentially change the rendering of standards mode pages if <table> because a child of <p>
  491. # [18:20] <zcorpan> Lachy: you just said people use <p><table/></p> in standards mode
  492. # [18:21] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  493. # [18:21] <zcorpan> i haven't seen any page that uses <p><table> but meant <p></p><table> other than acid2 and my mobile-results page and somewhere in anne's blog
  494. # [18:21] <zcorpan> yet i have also seen people ask on forums why they can't nest their tables in their paragraphs
  495. # [18:21] <annevk> zcorpan, they use it, don't realize it doesn't work, and rely on the resulting rendering
  496. # [18:21] <zcorpan> annevk: ah
  497. # [18:21] <annevk> but I'm not sure if there would be much rendering differences between <p><table></table></p> and <p></p><table></table> though
  498. # [18:22] <annevk> especially if we introduce the </p> quirk in standards mode...
  499. # [18:22] <jgraham> Nav links added
  500. # [18:22] * annevk wonders if they are dependent on each other
  501. # [18:22] <Lachy> zcorpan, I said they write that in their markup, but although they think <table> is a child of <p>, it's not and changing that could result in unexpected behaviour
  502. # [18:22] <zcorpan> ok
  503. # [18:23] <Lachy> we would, of course, need to to some sort of study to find out if anything really could break
  504. # [18:23] <zcorpan> like what?
  505. # [18:23] <zcorpan> i can only imagine there would be no bottom margine below the table
  506. # [18:23] <zcorpan> but then ie6 doesn't even have bottom margin of Ps
  507. # [18:24] <Lachy> say they had: p, table { margin-left: 2em; }, once the table was a child of the p, that would increase the margin to 4 em.
  508. # [18:24] <zcorpan> yup
  509. # [18:24] <Lachy> or, if they had p { border: 1px solid green; }, then border would then extend to surround the table
  510. # [18:25] <zcorpan> yeah, but i haven't seen such a case
  511. # [18:25] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-740994999a9630a2)
  512. # [18:25] <zcorpan> not that i have made a study of lots of pages though
  513. # [18:27] <annevk> have fun: http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=%3Cp%3E%3Ctable%3E
  514. # [18:28] <annevk> over 26,000 code page thingies use it
  515. # [18:29] <zcorpan> searching for "<p><table" probably gives a better result
  516. # [18:29] <annevk> 39,000
  517. # [18:30] <zcorpan> given the fact that every browser does it in quirks mode and some did it in standards mode as well before acid2, indicates to me that it's required
  518. # [18:31] <zcorpan> and that pages in standards mode doesn't rely on it
  519. # [18:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: shouldn't the parse errors list say anything more than the position of the error?
  520. # [18:36] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes. That's a known issue which I havne't bothered to fix because of the much larger known issue that most of the error strings in html5lib are crap
  521. # [18:37] <zcorpan> ok
  522. # [18:42] * annevk wonders why Roger Johansson doesn't like pave the cowpaths
  523. # [18:42] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-740994999a9630a2) ("The computer fell asleep")
  524. # [18:53] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  525. # [18:54] <jdandrea> zcorpan: I'm presently on WA 1.0 4.4.3.10 (moving along with the author view CSS). For paragraphs with a mix of author and UA-only-relevant info, I'm leaving it visible. Make sense? (Example: 4.4.3.9 - paragraphs 2 and 3.)
  526. # [18:56] <zcorpan> jdandrea: yup
  527. # [18:56] <jdandrea> zcorpan: thx
  528. # [19:00] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  529. # [19:03] <jgraham> zcorpan: Error messages now work (stupid typo)
  530. # [19:03] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@odin.landmark.edu)
  531. # [19:05] <zcorpan> jgraham: nice. and <article> works
  532. # [19:05] <zcorpan> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3C%21doctypehtml%3E%3Cp%3E%3Carticle%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Farticle%3E
  533. # [19:05] <zcorpan> hm
  534. # [19:07] <zcorpan> <article></article> triggers the error
  535. # [19:11] <zcorpan> jgraham: shouldn't the "|"s be at the start of the line in the parse tree?
  536. # [19:12] <zcorpan> or hm, it's not in that format anyway
  537. # [19:14] <zcorpan> i.e. this format http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Parser_tests#Tree_Construction_Tests
  538. # [19:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: The </article> thing should be fixed (I forgot new close tags also raised an error)
  539. # [19:15] <jgraham> No, the output isn't in the test format. I guess that might have been more useful. I remember having a reason, I forget what it was :)
  540. # [19:16] <zcorpan> being more like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ ?
  541. # [19:17] <jgraham> Probably
  542. # [19:18] <jgraham> Although it doesn't match that either
  543. # [19:18] <annevk> we should have a script that does make it match that
  544. # [19:18] <annevk> i'd like to have a script that tells what my browser does versus html5 without having to read some spec
  545. # [19:19] <zcorpan> either that or have the test result format... (the latter can be easily pasted to text/plain email)
  546. # [19:19] <annevk> yeah fair enough
  547. # [19:19] <annevk> might be easier to modify hixie's thingie to output <pre> like stuff
  548. # [19:21] <jgraham> Is the text/plain thing just about syntax highlighting? Syntax highlighting is good...
  549. # [19:22] <annevk> pasting into e-mail seems to be the use case
  550. # [19:22] <zcorpan> yeah
  551. # [19:22] <zcorpan> you can make < and > be the same color as the background color ;)
  552. # [19:22] <zcorpan> if you want nice syntax highlighting
  553. # [19:23] <annevk> That's not really a requirement I have though. I just want to point a browser to a page. Paste in some text in a <textarea> and have the site create two DOM "trees". One from the browser I use and one using html5lib.
  554. # [19:26] <annevk> has anyone checked what <p><table implies?
  555. # [19:26] <annevk> for <p><table></p> for instance
  556. # [19:27] <annevk> or <p><table><tr><td><p>test</p>
  557. # [19:27] <annevk> or <p><table><tr><td><p> even
  558. # [19:27] <annevk> I suppose you would process the <p> inside the <table> in a table specific way?
  559. # [19:33] <annevk> IE seems to do the special handing within <table>
  560. # [19:34] <annevk> This means that <p><table></table></p></p>x will give you <p><table></table></p><p></p>x as DOM for instance
  561. # [19:40] <Philip`> jgraham: http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Cspacer+type%22block%22+width%3D%221%22+height%3D%221%22%3E%3C%2Fspacer%3E
  562. # [19:41] <Philip`> ...gives non-well-formed output, which is a bit irritating since I was trying to use an XML parser on it
  563. # [19:41] <annevk> that seems correct though
  564. # [19:41] <Philip`> (at least from html5lib's simpletree's toxml() function, and that innerHTML view shows the same problem)
  565. # [19:42] <annevk> (note that the HTML and XML 1.0 infosets aren't compatible so doing that without extra checking is not going to be sufficient)
  566. # [19:42] <annevk> (html5lib toxml() is primitive
  567. # [19:42] <annevk> )
  568. # [19:42] <jgraham> Non-well-formed as in "illegal XML attribute name"? Yeah, I don't think we can do much about that
  569. # [19:42] <annevk> (I'm not sure it's a problem for innerHTML)
  570. # [19:42] <Philip`> (That code is from http://www.toyota.com/)
  571. # [19:42] <annevk> they use <spacer>?
  572. # [19:42] <annevk> awesome
  573. # [19:43] <Philip`> annevk: At least it got through five web pages before being too primitive to cope, which isn't bad given the state of most web pages :-)
  574. # [19:43] <zcorpan> annevk: <table> is already scoped... so anything after <table> is treated the same as if there was nothing before <table> aiui
  575. # [19:43] <annevk> lots of stuff inside <table> is handled using the inBody phase
  576. # [19:43] * jgraham wonders if we should remove all the xml stuff or if Sam or someone is going to patch it to work correctly
  577. # [19:43] <annevk> which may cause conflicts if a <p> is actually in scope
  578. # [19:44] <zcorpan> hm
  579. # [19:44] <annevk> indeed
  580. # [19:45] <zcorpan> wouldn't it be the same as e.g. <div><table></div> ?
  581. # [19:47] <Philip`> Urgh, I get broken XML out of toxml() for 250 out of 1000 pages :-(
  582. # [19:49] <annevk> zcorpan, <div> does not imply </div>
  583. # [19:49] * Philip` will probably try writing a more robust serialiser
  584. # [19:49] <annevk> when a <div> is in scope
  585. # [19:49] <annevk> Philip`, that's awesome data
  586. # [19:49] <annevk> please store it in some way
  587. # [19:49] <zcorpan> annevk: i wrote </div>
  588. # [19:50] <Philip`> annevk: Which data in particular?
  589. # [19:51] <zcorpan> annevk: http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Cdiv%3E%3Ctable%3E1%3C%2Fdiv%3E2%3Ctr%3E3%3C%2Fdiv%3E4%3Ctd%3E5%3C%2Fdiv%3E6
  590. # [19:52] <annevk> Philip`, that HTML serialized to a DOM tree on lots of pages won't give you an XML serialization back
  591. # [19:52] <annevk> Philip`, even with scripting disabled
  592. # [19:52] <annevk> zcorpan, <div> is fundamentally different from <p> in parsing
  593. # [19:52] <annevk> zcorpan, I'm not sure how you can compare them
  594. # [19:55] <Philip`> annevk: Ah, okay - I've got all the raw data so I can reproduce the results easily
  595. # [19:57] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  596. # [19:58] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't see any difference that would be relevant to <p><table></p> vs <div><table></div> if <table> was changed to not imply </p>
  597. # [19:59] * Joins: _Toolskyn (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  598. # [19:59] <annevk> the moment you hit <p> it checks whether <p> is in scope and tries to close it by popping elements from the stack
  599. # [20:00] <annevk> I'm quite positive it's problematic
  600. # [20:00] * Joins: om_sleep (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-01269849afcbf8b8)
  601. # [20:01] <annevk> Then again, I'm basing this on my knowledge of that part of the specification from back in January
  602. # [20:01] <jdandrea> Lachy: I'm helping out zcorpan with the author view (CSS) of WA 1.0. Just noticed 4.6.4 uses the same id as 4.6.3 (read-text). [Advising you per http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/]
  603. # [20:01] <annevk> When I looked into changing the parsing of </p>
  604. # [20:02] <zcorpan> annevk: </div> also pops elements from the stack until div has been popped
  605. # [20:02] <annevk> this is about <p>
  606. # [20:02] <annevk> not </p>
  607. # [20:02] <annevk> aah
  608. # [20:02] <annevk> <p> implies </p> when <p> is in scope
  609. # [20:03] <zcorpan> yes
  610. # [20:03] <annevk> given <p><table><tr><td><p> <p> is indeed in scope
  611. # [20:03] <annevk> and would pop <td>, <tr> and <table> from the stack
  612. # [20:03] <zcorpan> sure?
  613. # [20:03] <annevk> (given that <table> does not imply that <p> would be popped of from the stack)
  614. # [20:03] <annevk> see above for that part
  615. # [20:04] <annevk> I would like a citation of the spec that says otherwise
  616. # [20:04] <jdandrea> lachy: whoops, and also 4.6.5
  617. # [20:04] * annevk goes to look for himself
  618. # [20:04] <annevk> this is not going anywhere :)
  619. # [20:05] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  620. # [20:06] <annevk> you would hit some loop in generating implied end tags maybe...
  621. # [20:06] <annevk> no, you wouldn't
  622. # [20:07] <annevk> yes it would happen exactly as I described
  623. # [20:07] <annevk> please read the spec
  624. # [20:07] <zcorpan> i am reading the spec :|
  625. # [20:07] <zcorpan> i haven't implemented it though so i might be reading it wrong
  626. # [20:07] <annevk> reading in the Hixie sense?
  627. # [20:08] <annevk> lets go through it
  628. # [20:08] <annevk> ok?
  629. # [20:08] <zcorpan> sure
  630. # [20:08] <zcorpan> given <p><table><p>
  631. # [20:08] <annevk> given <p><table><tr><td><p> would be nicer
  632. # [20:08] <zcorpan> ok
  633. # [20:08] <Lachy> jdandrea, you should let Hixie know about problems like that with the spec. Let me know about problems with the FAQ
  634. # [20:08] <annevk> we assume that <table> doesn't imply <p> for the moment
  635. # [20:08] <zcorpan> ok
  636. # [20:08] <annevk> at some point we hit <p>
  637. # [20:09] <annevk> the insertion mode is "in cell" at that point
  638. # [20:09] <annevk> which says: 'Process the token as if the insertion mode was "in body".'
  639. # [20:09] <zcorpan> yup
  640. # [20:09] <jdandrea> Lachy: I was about to do that, but for some reason misinterpreted the FAQ page. np
  641. # [20:10] <annevk> the "in body" phase says this about <p>: 'If the stack of open elements has a p element in scope, then act as if an end tag with the tag name p had been seen.'
  642. # [20:10] <annevk> whoa, you're right
  643. # [20:10] <annevk> hah
  644. # [20:10] * annevk didn't check "in scope"
  645. # [20:10] <zcorpan> phew! :)
  646. # [20:11] <MichaelMH> ok.. new and improved curvey M http://www.michaelmh.com/stuff/newbie/M.html
  647. # [20:12] <zcorpan> annevk: also, at </div> the spec says the same thing basically as for </p>... (pop elements until a div has been popped)
  648. # [20:13] <annevk> my point was about <p> implying </p> and <div> not implying </div>
  649. # [20:13] <annevk> which you seem to have missed somehow
  650. # [20:14] * Quits: Toolskyn88 (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Connection timed out)
  651. # [20:14] <zcorpan> i didn't miss it, it's just that when you imply </p> you process that token as if it was there, right?
  652. # [20:14] <zcorpan> <p> says you imply </p>
  653. # [20:14] <zcorpan> </p> says you pop elements
  654. # [20:14] <zcorpan> </div> also says you pop elements
  655. # [20:14] <zcorpan> and that was my point
  656. # [20:16] <annevk> given that step 3 of in scope was not there <div><table><div> would be different from <p><table><p>
  657. # [20:16] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  658. # [20:16] <zcorpan> yes
  659. # [20:17] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  660. # [20:17] <bewest> what is supposed to happen when writing to innerHTML for a node that isn't properly part of the DOM yet?
  661. # [20:17] <annevk> how would that matter?
  662. # [20:17] <zcorpan> bewest: isn't inserted into the document, you mean?
  663. # [20:17] <bewest> IE throws an error (even if parentNode != null)
  664. # [20:17] <annevk> oh, maybe it does
  665. # [20:17] <bewest> yeah
  666. # [20:18] <bewest> if you have something like
  667. # [20:18] <zcorpan> bewest: iirc per spec it shouldn't matter
  668. # [20:18] <annevk> yeah, seems like it
  669. # [20:18] <bewest> <div> <script> // find last script tag, replace with div using DOM, then write to innerHTML of that div</script> </div>
  670. # [20:18] <annevk> so you can have document.innerHTML = stuff
  671. # [20:18] <bewest> this will fail in IE
  672. # [20:19] <zcorpan> but works in other browsers?
  673. # [20:19] <MichaelMH> can someone explain to me how to use shadowOffsetX, shadowOffsetY, shadowBlur, shadowColor I cant find it in the mozilla tutorial
  674. # [20:19] <bewest> Firefox works
  675. # [20:19] <bewest> yeah
  676. # [20:20] <annevk> MichaelMH, they are unsupported
  677. # [20:20] <zcorpan> then it's probably just a bug in ie...
  678. # [20:20] * annevk isn't aware of any browser support
  679. # [20:20] <bewest> (this is actually a problem with some code I'm workign on right now... writing to innerHTML is done in a callback and there is a race condition that causes IE to fail [if the document hasn't finished loading before the callback fires])
  680. # [20:20] <MichaelMH> aww.
  681. # [20:21] <annevk> does anybody know if Safari does reparsing for comments in quirks?
  682. # [20:21] <Philip`> (Wow, <spacer> is quite popular - I see it on about 1% of these pages)
  683. # [20:21] <bewest> zcorpan: so that sounds like a bug according to the spec?
  684. # [20:21] <bewest> would it be useful to have an example of this on the web?
  685. # [20:22] * annevk doesn't like <script><!-- document.write('</script>'); --></script>
  686. # [20:22] <zcorpan> bewest: sounds like a bug, yeah
  687. # [20:23] <zcorpan> annevk: i have some tests on that
  688. # [20:23] <bewest> http://dichotomize.com/czmap/innerhtmlbug.html
  689. # [20:24] <bewest> I try to avoid document.write if possible
  690. # [20:24] <bewest> maybe I shouldn't
  691. # [20:24] <annevk> oh, reparsing of <% and %> is nasty too
  692. # [20:25] <annevk> (<%<p>%> remove last %)
  693. # [20:26] <bewest> it's a DOM-tease
  694. # [20:26] <annevk> it's likely fast
  695. # [20:26] <annevk> Firefox, Opera and html5lib seem to parse the above per HTML5 btw
  696. # [20:26] <annevk> the <% syntax
  697. # [20:27] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  698. # [20:36] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  699. # [20:36] <MichaelMH> man whats with these radians. degrees is so much easier for me
  700. # [20:36] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-223b2eabb7607038)
  701. # [20:37] <Philip`> You could do everything in degrees and then convert for the function call by doing deg*Math.PI/180
  702. # [20:37] <Philip`> and then it wouldn't be necessary to worry about radians any more
  703. # [20:37] <annevk> yeah just make a deg2rad function
  704. # [20:38] <Philip`> (It seems like only computers and mathematicians like radians)
  705. # [20:40] <MichaelMH> ah thank you
  706. # [20:41] <jgraham> <physicist>I like radians
  707. # [20:41] * jgraham wonders if everyone else becomes a physicist because he left the tag open
  708. # [20:41] <MichaelMH> gcse maths didn't include radians
  709. # [20:42] <Philip`> Oh, physicists and computer scientists are just special cases of mathematicians, since that makes my generalisation work better :-)
  710. # [20:42] <jgraham> MichaelMH: No, you don't really need them until you do calculus
  711. # [20:42] <MichaelMH> yo, I'm a bit annoyed that you cant change the point of origin with rotate
  712. # [20:43] <Philip`> You can do translate/rotate/translate to get the same effect
  713. # [20:43] <MichaelMH> oh well, I'm not doing A level.
  714. # [20:44] <Philip`> (I suppose a canvas library with functions like rotateAround(x, y, a) might be handy in cases like this)
  715. # [20:44] * jgraham really enjoyed A-level maths
  716. # [20:44] <jgraham> But I realised I wasn't particularly good at it when I got to University
  717. # [20:45] <MichaelMH> Maths is soo booring...
  718. # [20:45] <MichaelMH> infact all of school is boring
  719. # [20:45] <Philip`> ((I think my head exploded some time ago while trying to work out the right transformations to get perspective-correct tiled floors in Canvex - it's not incredibly fun when you don't even have the transform() function))
  720. # [20:45] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-183-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  721. # [20:46] <MichaelMH> I don't understand why rotate can't be rotate(angle, x, y)
  722. # [20:46] <MichaelMH> is that too much to ask for?
  723. # [20:48] <MichaelMH> because I was gonna have my M at a slight angle. So I thought I could rotate around the point 50,50. but when I use translate before my M goes off the canvas and im not sure what to do
  724. # [20:50] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  725. # [20:50] <Philip`> It might be something vaguely like function rotateAround(ctx, angle, x, y) { ctx.translate(-x, -y); ctx.rotate(angle); ctx.translate(x*Math.cos(angle)+y*Math.sin(angle), x*Math.sin(angle)-y*Math.cos(angle)); } except that's totally untested and probably needs some +/- changes in the last translate, unless I've got it even more wrong than that
  726. # [20:50] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  727. # [20:51] <Philip`> Actually, that's definitely wrong - it'd be less obviously wrong with translate(..., -x*sin + y*cos) instead
  728. # [20:51] <Philip`> (I think)
  729. # [20:51] <annevk> MichaelMH, whatwg@whatwg.org accepts proposals ;)
  730. # [20:51] <MichaelMH> so i could ask for a origin bit in the rotate tag?
  731. # [20:53] <zcorpan> MichaelMH: if you have a use-case to back up your proposal it will certainly be taken into consideration
  732. # [20:53] <zcorpan> or well, all use-cases are considered, it's just that those that are backed up with use-cases are more likely to be accepted
  733. # [20:54] <zcorpan> er
  734. # [20:54] <zcorpan> all proposals
  735. # [20:54] <MichaelMH> ic
  736. # [20:54] <MichaelMH> so whats a use-case?
  737. # [20:54] <zcorpan> why you want the feature
  738. # [20:54] <zcorpan> "because I was gonna have my M at a slight angle."
  739. # [20:57] <MichaelMH> Do you think that will be convincing enough
  740. # [20:58] <zcorpan> annevk: in the xht spec, isn't it unneeded (inappropriate?) to have MUSTs inside algorithms?
  741. # [20:58] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("k lol plz thx bai")
  742. # [20:59] <zcorpan> and other rfc2119 terms
  743. # [20:59] <annevk> yeah, maybe
  744. # [20:59] <annevk> i've been thinking about that
  745. # [20:59] <annevk> remind me tomorrow?
  746. # [20:59] <zcorpan> ok
  747. # [21:00] <zcorpan> i can send it to the list otherwise
  748. # [21:00] <zcorpan> also wanted to propose dropping the "conforming scripts" concept
  749. # [21:01] <zcorpan> and replace the only SHOULD that applied to scripts with a non-normative encouragement
  750. # [21:02] * Joins: SpookyET_ (i=user@75.138.70.34)
  751. # [21:05] <bewest> (11:23:26) annevk: Firefox, Opera and html5lib seem to parse the above per HTML5 btw # annevk, is this in reference to http://dichotomize.com/czmap/innerhtmlbug.html ?
  752. # [21:13] <MichaelMH> yo zcorpan is this ok http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=213
  753. # [21:18] <zcorpan> MichaelMH: "Um.. I'm quite sure about this question so I'm just going to ignore it." you meant "I'm not quite sure..."?
  754. # [21:19] * Quits: clotman (n=louis@shell.icgroup.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  755. # [21:19] * Joins: clotman (n=louis@shell.icgroup.com)
  756. # [21:19] <zcorpan> but yeah, it's ok
  757. # [21:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: should i forward it to the list+
  758. # [21:20] <zcorpan> ?
  759. # [21:20] <MichaelMH> lol oh yeah, sorry. I'm good at typos
  760. # [21:22] <bewest> slightly improved: http://dichotomize.com/czmap/innerhtmlbug.html
  761. # [21:22] <bewest> are there conventions for tests like these that I would be wise to follow?
  762. # [21:22] * othermaciej is now known as om_lunch
  763. # [21:22] <zcorpan> bewest: yes
  764. # [21:23] <zcorpan> 1) keep it to an absolute minimum
  765. # [21:23] <zcorpan> 2) state what the pass condition is
  766. # [21:23] <bewest> ah great
  767. # [21:23] <zcorpan> 3) make the pass indicator green if possible
  768. # [21:23] <bewest> I think I satisifed that
  769. # [21:23] <bewest> maybe I can also show the error
  770. # [21:23] <zcorpan> 4) make it very obvious that the test failed when it fails
  771. # [21:23] <zcorpan> 5) cite the relevant spec in a <link rel=help
  772. # [21:24] <zcorpan> 6) describe what you're testing specifically in the <title>
  773. # [21:25] <zcorpan> and that's about it, i think
  774. # [21:25] <bewest> hmmm
  775. # [21:25] <bewest> ok, I'm failing on number 5
  776. # [21:25] <zcorpan> also #1 i think :)
  777. # [21:25] <bewest> really?
  778. # [21:25] <zcorpan> yeah
  779. # [21:25] <bewest> what should I remove?
  780. # [21:26] <zcorpan> everything that isn't needed for the actual test
  781. # [21:26] <zcorpan> "It should say pass below:
  782. # [21:26] <zcorpan> PASS"
  783. # [21:26] <zcorpan> is a good test
  784. # [21:27] <bewest> as opposed to Results: Your browser fails/passes with fails red and passes green?
  785. # [21:27] <zcorpan> yes
  786. # [21:27] <bewest> oh
  787. # [21:27] <zcorpan> known results is also external to the test
  788. # [21:27] <bewest> so just get rid of Results and just make it PASS/FAIL?
  789. # [21:27] <zcorpan> yes
  790. # [21:27] <bewest> ok
  791. # [21:27] <zcorpan> when it fails it can be good to indicate what failed, if possible
  792. # [21:28] <wilhelm> Yes. Also state the pass condidtion. “You should see the word 'PASS' below:”, for example.
  793. # [21:28] <zcorpan> e.g. you start with <p>FAIL (script didn't run)</p>
  794. # [21:28] <zcorpan> wilhelm: that was stated already :)
  795. # [21:28] <wilhelm> Oh. Ignore me.
  796. # [21:29] <Lachy> bewest, if you're testing support for .innerHTML, you don't need to provide a try...catch block and fall back to appendChild. That could potentially result in a false positive
  797. # [21:29] <zcorpan> bewest: also don't reference external files unless needed
  798. # [21:29] <bewest> Lachy: the try/catch is to show the error
  799. # [21:30] <bewest> zcorpan: I can't do that last bit
  800. # [21:30] <bewest> zcorpan: because that's not the test
  801. # [21:30] <bewest> hrmmm maybe this is two tests
  802. # [21:30] <zcorpan> then split it up :)
  803. # [21:31] <bewest> I don't know if it's a problem split up
  804. # [21:31] <Lachy> ah, ok, I misread the script. But it should just say FAIL when it fails, you don't need to output the script error message
  805. # [21:31] <bewest> ok
  806. # [21:31] <bewest> should I let the error bubble up to the user then?
  807. # [21:31] <bewest> eg, not try/catch at all?
  808. # [21:31] <zcorpan> yeah
  809. # [21:31] <Lachy> yes, then the tester can use the browsers own diagnostic tools to see the error
  810. # [21:32] <bewest> ok
  811. # [21:32] <bewest> how's that, then?
  812. # [21:32] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-183-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  813. # [21:32] <zcorpan> easier to debug
  814. # [21:33] <Lachy> take out the InnerHTML... heading, Methodology section and Test heading
  815. # [21:33] <bewest> ok
  816. # [21:33] <zcorpan> bewest: this might help http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/writing-test-cases-for-web-browsers
  817. # [21:33] * bewest devours
  818. # [21:34] <Lachy> also, you should make use of the <div id="result"> for testing .innerHTML, instead of a separate element
  819. # [21:35] <wilhelm> Yeah, what Lachy said. Testers might be running through thousands of tests in one run, and they just want to know whether it passed or failed; not what each test is testing.
  820. # [21:35] <Lachy> so, the markup should look like this <div id="test" class="fail">FAIL</div>
  821. # [21:35] <wilhelm> Metadata and descriptions should be stored somewhere else than in the actual test.
  822. # [21:35] <Lachy> then have the script do this: test.innerHTML = "PASS"; test.className = "pass";
  823. # [21:35] <zcorpan> Lachy: when it fails, it's useful to know why it failed (e.g. because the script didn't run at all)
  824. # [21:36] <bewest> Lachy: I can't do that
  825. # [21:36] <bewest> Lachy: that's not the test
  826. # [21:36] <Lachy> it's part of the test, though
  827. # [21:37] <Lachy> ah, I see what you mean.
  828. # [21:37] <bewest> wait you mean like this?
  829. # [21:37] <zcorpan> you can also drop the className thing
  830. # [21:37] <zcorpan> PASS/FAIL is a good enough indicator
  831. # [21:38] <bewest> I thought you wanted it red
  832. # [21:38] <zcorpan> either red or FAIL, or both
  833. # [21:38] <bewest> so it's both currently
  834. # [21:38] <zcorpan> yes
  835. # [21:39] <zcorpan> in the interest of #1 you can drop one of them
  836. # [21:39] <zcorpan> otherwise the person debugging why it failed would waste time looking into what the className thing is doing
  837. # [21:40] * Quits: yod (n=ot@bas11-montreal02-1128531044.dsl.bell.ca) ("Leaving")
  838. # [21:40] <bewest> ok, I removed a function as well
  839. # [21:40] <bewest> in favor of finding the last script inline
  840. # [21:40] <Lachy> so to distinguish between the script failing, or not executing, make the markup <div id="result">FAIL (script did not execute)</div>, and then the script sets that to PASS or FAIL
  841. # [21:41] <zcorpan> Lachy: yep, that's good
  842. # [21:41] <MichaelMH> um... is there any other tutorials for animating with canvas? cus the one on mozilla is quite hard to follow for me
  843. # [21:42] <Lachy> and take out the list that describes what the test is doing, that's not necessary
  844. # [21:42] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-223b2eabb7607038) ("The computer fell asleep")
  845. # [21:43] * Lachy is wonderings what more appropriate text than "hello world!" would be.
  846. # [21:44] <bewest> is ok to just comment out the explanation?
  847. # [21:44] <Lachy> yeah
  848. # [21:44] <bewest> you really dont' want any text explaining what's being tested?
  849. # [21:44] <bewest> ok how's it look now?
  850. # [21:44] <zcorpan> bewest: only in the title
  851. # [21:44] <Lachy> not visible. Use comments in the source to explain what's going on if necessary
  852. # [21:45] <bewest> oh ok
  853. # [21:45] <Lachy> maybe s/hello world!/It should say PASS below/
  854. # [21:45] <zcorpan> why not PASS instead of hello world! ?
  855. # [21:46] <zcorpan> and then a paragraph above always present stating the pass condition
  856. # [21:46] * om_lunch is now known as othermaciej
  857. # [21:47] <zcorpan> you can update innerHTML of the same element onload
  858. # [21:47] <Lachy> zcorpan, the the "hello word!" text is going to be visible, and is separate from the pass condition, then it wouldn't make sense for it to say PASS as well
  859. # [21:47] <zcorpan> first change it to FAIL
  860. # [21:47] <zcorpan> then onload change it to PASS if it says FAIL
  861. # [21:50] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net)
  862. # [21:54] <Lachy> bewest, there's an erroneous "." following the result div
  863. # [21:55] <zcorpan> Lachy: "hello world!" isn't visible if scripting is disabled
  864. # [21:55] <Lachy> yeah, I know
  865. # [21:58] <zcorpan> bewest: ie7 passes if you remove the <p> around the script
  866. # [21:59] <zcorpan> bewest: might be because of ie's whacky dom not being a tree
  867. # [21:59] <zcorpan> not sure
  868. # [22:00] <zcorpan> if you replace the p with a div ie7 passes too
  869. # [22:01] <zcorpan> so it looks like this is in fact unrelated to innerHTML per se
  870. # [22:03] <zcorpan> hmm... naw, using appendChild instead of innerHTML makes it pass, so it has something to do with innerHTML
  871. # [22:06] <Lachy> the problem is that in IE, test == null;
  872. # [22:06] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  873. # [22:06] <zcorpan> seems like container.innerHTML = "hello world!" makes the function return or something
  874. # [22:06] <Lachy> so it seems the bug isn't innerHTML at all, it's gEBId I think
  875. # [22:07] <MichaelMH> how new is canvas anyways?
  876. # [22:07] <zcorpan> Lachy: try to do something after the innerHTML line in the test function
  877. # [22:07] <zcorpan> like alert("foo");
  878. # [22:07] <zcorpan> before that line, it alerts, after, nothing happens
  879. # [22:08] <zcorpan> so the assignment of innerHTML seems to be equivalent to "return;" or so
  880. # [22:08] <Lachy> I'm using the LiveDOMViewer, and it's not doing anything anywhere
  881. # [22:09] <zcorpan> oh, i'm testing in a file, and i can do anything before the assignment
  882. # [22:09] <zcorpan> but nothing after it
  883. # [22:10] <Lachy> ah, no, it was my fault. I had a typo that prevented the script from executing
  884. # [22:16] <Lachy> I tidied it up a bit, see the DOM viewer and dowload it from the clipboard http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  885. # [22:17] <Lachy> oops, had to upload it again, there was a small mistake
  886. # [22:18] <Lachy> hmm. weird, I must have made another mistake, cause it fails in FF now
  887. # [22:18] <zcorpan> i made it simpler still, sent to bewest in PM
  888. # [22:18] <zcorpan> should i upload what i've got to LDV?
  889. # [22:19] <Lachy> ah, found my bug. Yeah, upload yours
  890. # [22:19] <zcorpan> uploaded
  891. # [22:19] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net) (Excess Flood)
  892. # [22:19] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net)
  893. # [22:19] <zcorpan> it won't say FAIL when it fails though... because the assignment nukes the node in ie it seems
  894. # [22:20] <bewest> zcorpan: that's the test
  895. # [22:21] <zcorpan> yeah
  896. # [22:21] <zcorpan> try changing the second <p>...</p> to <div>...</div>
  897. # [22:25] <bewest> second p?
  898. # [22:25] <bewest> the first p?
  899. # [22:26] <zcorpan> bewest: hit download at http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  900. # [22:28] <bewest> zcorpan: you want me to use div instead of P?
  901. # [22:28] <Lachy> bewest, no, just to see what happens when you change the P to a DIV
  902. # [22:28] <bewest> whoah
  903. # [22:28] <bewest> it works...
  904. # [22:28] <zcorpan> what Lachy said
  905. # [22:28] <bewest> hrmmm
  906. # [22:28] <bewest> hrmmm
  907. # [22:28] <bewest> hrmmm
  908. # [22:28] * bewest is shocked
  909. # [22:28] <Lachy> stop repeating yourself
  910. # [22:29] <Lachy> :-)
  911. # [22:30] <zcorpan> it might be that ie's dom is so whacky when you nest a DIV inside a P, that innerHTML just refuses to work for that case
  912. # [22:30] <zcorpan> and makes the function simply return
  913. # [22:32] <zcorpan> bewest: that the function returns can be seen by trying to do a simple alert("foo"); after the innerHTML assignment
  914. # [22:33] <Lachy> if you set .innerHTML = ""; then it doesn't return (though, the test still failes)
  915. # [22:33] <Lachy> s/failes/fails/
  916. # [22:33] <zcorpan> interesting
  917. # [22:34] <zcorpan> innerHTML = " \n" also works
  918. # [22:34] <Lachy> ah, so if it's not whitespace
  919. # [22:34] <zcorpan> yeah
  920. # [22:34] <Lachy> that might have something to do with IE not retaining whitespace nodes in the DOM
  921. # [22:35] <zcorpan> could be
  922. # [22:35] <Lachy> container.innerHTML = "<!-- -->"; works too
  923. # [22:36] <zcorpan> whey. </div> is equivalent to <div></div> in ie7
  924. # [22:36] <Lachy> woah!
  925. # [22:36] <zcorpan> in fact, any block-level element it seems
  926. # [22:37] <zcorpan> hmm, not quite
  927. # [22:37] <Lachy> which one doesn't?
  928. # [22:37] <bewest> my theory was that the script tag freezes DOM construction, and so even though there is a reference to a parentNode for the newly appended div, it's not part of some "proper DOM" (a DOM-tease?) and so fails to write to the innerHTML
  929. # [22:37] <zcorpan> </table> becomes a /TABLE element
  930. # [22:37] <bewest> but it sounds like it's more complicated than that
  931. # [22:38] <bewest> (btw this is afflicting some production code of mine)
  932. # [22:38] <zcorpan> bewest: it is part of the document at the time you assign innerHTML
  933. # [22:38] <bewest> hmm
  934. # [22:39] <Lachy> it's just because IE's architecture is an absolute disaster area, despite cwilso's claims that IE's architecture is good.
  935. # [22:39] <zcorpan> (or well, i think it is, and it should be, but i can't say for sure what the heck IE is doing here)
  936. # [22:40] <bewest> should I change it back to p, or leave it as div?
  937. # [22:40] <zcorpan> p
  938. # [22:40] <zcorpan> otherwise you don't reveal the bug :)
  939. # [22:41] <zcorpan> but you can have two tests
  940. # [22:41] <zcorpan> or say in a comment that it will work when you change it to a div
  941. # [22:41] <Lachy> test it with all block level elements
  942. # [22:42] <zcorpan> ok
  943. # [22:42] <bewest> erm... like, at separate URIs?
  944. # [22:42] <bewest> or make a test that automatically tests all of them?
  945. # [22:43] <zcorpan> the latter seems more appealing :)
  946. # [22:43] <Lachy> separate tests
  947. # [22:43] <Lachy> yeah, what zcorpan said
  948. # [22:43] <bewest> erm
  949. # [22:44] <Lachy> though, you have to be careful not to make it too cluttered
  950. # [22:44] <bewest> ok
  951. # [22:44] <bewest> I think that's more time than I can invest at work right now
  952. # [22:44] <bewest> will have to wait till I get home
  953. # [22:44] <Lachy> having 2 dozen tests makes it difficult to quickly scan and see if they all passed
  954. # [22:44] <bewest> well, I'll probably do a php script or something
  955. # [22:44] <bewest> make the element tested a query parameter
  956. # [22:44] <zcorpan> i can do it in JS now
  957. # [22:44] <bewest> maybe dont' even need php
  958. # [22:45] <bewest> yeah
  959. # [22:45] <bewest> the js can parse query parameters as well
  960. # [22:45] * Lachy should go to bed, the sun is coming up :-)
  961. # [22:45] <zcorpan> i thought of just running all at once and then writing a log :)
  962. # [22:45] <bewest> ah
  963. # [22:46] * Quits: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-ff66af3665ec1821) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/0000000000]")
  964. # [22:46] <bewest> anyway, what's interesting is that when innerHTML fails, using appendChild will work
  965. # [22:46] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.133.93) (Client Quit)
  966. # [22:46] <bewest> appendChild(document.createTextNode('hello world')); will work in lieu of innerHTML = "hello world";
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  970. # [22:52] <bewest> zcorpan: so should I leave this "as-is" for now, or is there more feedback I should incorporate other than testing multiple elements?
  971. # [22:55] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  972. # [23:00] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/stray-end-tags/
  973. # [23:01] <zcorpan> bewest: dunno
  974. # [23:01] <zcorpan> bewest: report the bug to MS
  975. # [23:02] <MichaelMH> nite nite everyone, Im off to bed
  976. # [23:02] * Quits: MichaelMH (n=Michael@87.254.67.30) ("Leaving")
  977. # [23:02] <zcorpan> but that might not be possible. "The site is temporarily closed. It will re-open in the future." -- https://connect.microsoft.com/site/sitehome.aspx?SiteID=136
  978. # [23:02] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: nn
  979. # [23:02] <bewest> erm looks like it's closed
  980. # [23:03] <bewest> yeah
  981. # [23:03] <bewest> typical
  982. # [23:03] <zcorpan> it has been "temporary" closed since they shipped ie7 or even before that i think
  983. # [23:03] <bewest> everything I find useful at their site is removed or closed
  984. # [23:03] <bewest> like "application readiness toolkit"
  985. # [23:03] <bewest> which they removed when vista was actually released
  986. # [23:03] <bewest> silly people
  987. # [23:03] <zcorpan> bewest: if you want i can add it to my ie7b2-bugs/, i think they are aware of those
  988. # [23:04] <zcorpan> or at least they have been pointed out to the ie team more than once, i think
  989. # [23:05] <bewest> hrm how do I submit to there?
  990. # [23:06] <zcorpan> to where?
  991. # [23:06] <bewest> oh
  992. # [23:06] <bewest> I mean
  993. # [23:06] <bewest> yeah go ahead and add it
  994. # [23:06] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  995. # [23:06] <bewest> you seem much more organized than anything I'm prepared to offer
  996. # [23:07] <bewest> what does (dropped) vs -- ELEMENT mean in your test results?
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  1000. # [23:22] * zcorpan improved the ouput of http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/stray-end-tags/
  1001. # [23:23] <zcorpan> bewest: (dropped) meant that the end tag didn't generate an element
  1002. # [23:23] <zcorpan> but i dropped "(dropped)" in favor of ""
  1003. # [23:25] <zcorpan> seems opera always does </br> -> <br> but never </p> -> <p></p>
  1004. # [23:26] <zcorpan> gecko does both in quirks but neither in standards (or almost standards)
  1005. # [23:34] <bewest> so now I'm going to have to defer things until after onload because of this stupid bug
  1006. # [23:35] <zcorpan> bewest: or change P to DIV? :P
  1007. # [23:36] <bewest> no... I don't have control of the surrounding markup
  1008. # [23:37] <bewest> I'm producing a widget for other authors to include
  1009. # [23:37] <bewest> and there is a race condition
  1010. # [23:37] <bewest> and sometimes this happens
  1011. # [23:38] <bewest> eg, <script> new Graph(opts); </script> will put somekind of interactive graph there
  1012. # [23:39] <zcorpan> generate a span instead of a div, then, perhaps?
  1013. # [23:39] <bewest> maybe... I didn't think the kind of element was the problem though
  1014. # [23:40] <zcorpan> the test passes if i change DIV to SPAN
  1015. # [23:40] <bewest> hmmmmmmm
  1016. # [23:41] <bewest> whoah
  1017. # [23:41] <bewest> that makes things vastly simpler
  1018. # [23:41] <zcorpan> :)
  1019. # [23:41] <bewest> terrific
  1020. # [23:41] <bewest> wow
  1021. # [23:41] <bewest> they must have really fubar stuff in IE
  1022. # [23:43] * Quits: SpookyET_ (i=user@75.138.70.34) (Client Quit)
  1023. # [23:43] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/ie7b2-bugs/051.html
  1024. # [23:45] <bewest> oh wow you really took the ax to it
  1025. # [23:45] * bewest takes note
  1026. # [23:46] <bewest> that's not a valid document though, is it?
  1027. # [23:47] <zcorpan> valid?
  1028. # [23:47] <zcorpan> seems like it is conforming html5 http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Ftest%2Fie7b2-bugs%2F051.html
  1029. # [23:47] <zcorpan> but generally i don't care about that while making test cases
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  1031. # [23:48] <bewest> ah
  1032. # [23:49] <zcorpan> valid in the sense of test cases has nothing to do with whether you conform to the conformance requirements of the languages you're using
  1033. # [23:49] <zcorpan> you might be testing error handling for instance
  1034. # [23:50] <bewest> yes
  1035. # [23:50] <bewest> I was under the impression that the DOM may change depending on whether or not the document is valid
  1036. # [23:50] <bewest> so that in order to better isolate your test, it's better to use a valid document
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  1039. # [23:51] <zcorpan> what do you mean change?
  1040. # [23:51] <zcorpan> browsers don't know whether a document is valid or not
  1041. # [23:52] <bewest> hmmm
  1042. # [23:52] <bewest> good point
  1043. # [23:52] <zcorpan> they just have bugs :)
  1044. # [23:53] <zcorpan> e.g., opera doesn't imply a HEAD if there isn't a <head> tag. but that's just a bug. and it doesn't affect this test case
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  1047. # Session Close: Tue May 08 00:00:00 2007

The end :)