/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:11] * Quits: iMagne (n=magne@ti231210a080-8240.bb.online.no) ("Yip yip yip")
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  6. # [00:35] <jgraham_> Philip`: So I have lxml working with html5lib. It's not pretty but it works
  7. # [00:37] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  8. # [00:41] <zcorpan> jgraham_: what is lxml?
  9. # [00:42] <jgraham_> lxml == python bindings for libxml2
  10. # [00:42] <zcorpan> ah
  11. # [00:42] <jgraham_> It has a full(?) XPath implementation, which is nice
  12. # [00:43] <zcorpan> ok
  13. # [00:46] <Hixie> yay interoperability
  14. # [00:46] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/021.html
  15. # [00:49] <Philip`> Looks like Firefox (2+3) and Opera (9.20) and Safari (2.0.4) all match on the left one, which surely counts as interoperability and just means the spec is wrong :-)
  16. # [00:50] <Hixie> i get one behaviour for opera and safari2, one for firefox 2 and 3, and one for safari trunk
  17. # [00:52] <zcorpan> so... which features in html5 can be considered ok for authors to use today? <canvas> is an obvious one, and various things in WF2 (in both cases possibly using a scripted fallback for ie)... perhaps getElementsByClassName with a prototype fallback for legacy UAs... anything other than that?
  18. # [00:53] <Hixie> depends what your criteria is
  19. # [00:53] <zcorpan> i will explain which features in html5 can be used today in the real world in my presentation the 23rd
  20. # [00:53] <zcorpan> and how
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  22. # [00:55] <Hixie> well, things like contenteditable, designmode, drag and drop, are implemented in IE already
  23. # [00:56] <zcorpan> ah. yep.
  24. # [00:56] * zcorpan makes notes
  25. # [00:56] <othermaciej> some of the elements have no API and their likely default presentation could be done solely with a stylesheet
  26. # [00:56] <Hixie> depends what you mean by usable, really
  27. # [00:56] <othermaciej> so you could use those depending on your standards
  28. # [00:57] <Hixie> more interop fun with canvas patterns: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/023.html
  29. # [00:57] <zcorpan> usable as in using a new feature + whatever fallback is needed to make it degrade ok or have the same functionality in legacy UAs is simpler than current practices for solving the same problem
  30. # [00:58] <Hixie> ok, depends what you mean by "new" :-)
  31. # [00:58] <zcorpan> new as in isn't widely used by authors
  32. # [00:59] <zcorpan> e.g. i wouldn't be talking about XHR or contenteditable
  33. # [00:59] <zcorpan> but i would be talking about <canvas>
  34. # [00:59] <Hixie> ah
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  36. # [01:00] <zcorpan> at first i was thinking about talking about everything that is listed in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
  37. # [01:01] <zcorpan> but then i realised that e.g. ping="" is pretty useless since ping="" + fallback is more complicated than the current practice of HTTP redirect or just JS
  38. # [01:02] <zcorpan> and firefox doesn't have a nice UI for it yet (i think)
  39. # [01:02] <Hixie> ping="" will only become useful once widely supported, if you actually need the data you'd get from it, yes
  40. # [01:02] <othermaciej> ping would only be useful today if you were ok with no ping as the fallback
  41. # [01:02] <Hixie> right
  42. # [01:03] <zcorpan> exactly
  43. # [01:03] <zcorpan> so that's something i won't be talking about
  44. # [01:05] <zcorpan> not sure if i should explain how the repetition model works since there were discussions about redesigning it from scratch
  45. # [01:05] <Hixie> it's been redesigned. the design sits on my whiteboard as we speak. :-)
  46. # [01:05] <zcorpan> cool :)
  47. # [01:05] <Dashiva> Is it better than before? ;)
  48. # [01:06] <Hixie> yeah
  49. # [01:06] <Hixie> it's close to xul templates actually
  50. # [01:06] <Hixie> if you know those
  51. # [01:06] <Hixie> except without the rdf
  52. # [01:06] <Hixie> and with much less markup
  53. # [01:06] <Hixie> doesn't have good fallback compared to the wf2 repetition model though
  54. # [01:07] <Hixie> though i guess the wf2 repetition model fallback was somewhat academic given that it didn't work in IE
  55. # [01:07] <Dashiva> Yeah, for the more complex features it can be better to start fresh
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  60. # [01:24] <Philip`> Hmm, Konqueror 3.8 renders 021 and 022 correctly but then crashes when loading 023
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  69. # [02:48] <bzed> hmm, firefox and konquerer just do nothign on 023 here, but they don't crash
  70. # [02:48] <bzed> and 021 doesn't work in FF
  71. # [02:48] <bzed> if anybody is interested...
  72. # [02:49] <bzed> konqueror 3.5.5
  73. # [03:02] <Philip`> 3.5.5 doesn't have any canvas support at all
  74. # [03:02] <Philip`> (It's new in 3.8, which is the pre-alpha KDE4 version)
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  76. # [03:20] <jruderman> http://www.i-marco.nl/weblog/archive/2006/06/24/time_breakdown_of_modern_web_d
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  118. # [12:27] * zcorpan created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Test_cases
  119. # [12:29] * othermaciej considers nominating all the people named on that page to be HTML WG Test Suite Editors
  120. # [12:30] <zcorpan> there might be others that i don't know about or have forgotten about
  121. # [12:32] <zcorpan> hixie should have some tests now that i think of it
  122. # [12:32] <zcorpan> and the html5lib project has a test suite
  123. # [12:33] <annevk> hixie has quite some tests
  124. # [12:35] <annevk> can someone explain to me wtf the <label> discussion is about?
  125. # [12:35] * annevk hasn't followed it
  126. # [12:36] * othermaciej neither
  127. # [12:36] <zcorpan> it started with a misunderstanding i think
  128. # [12:36] <zcorpan> the rest i don't know
  129. # [12:37] <annevk> ok, yeah, I got the bit about someone thinking that <textarea> was not allowed inside or something...
  130. # [12:37] <zcorpan> where are hixie's tests?
  131. # [12:37] <zcorpan> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/ ?
  132. # [12:39] <othermaciej> I like the fix to <label> click behavior in WF2, but it's unclear what should happen if the label is associated with something that does not correspond to a native OS control
  133. # [12:40] <annevk> if for= points to something that's not a form control the label doesn't have an associated element
  134. # [12:40] <othermaciej> ah
  135. # [12:40] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah
  136. # [12:40] <othermaciej> on Mac OS X in normal system UI, labels only do anything on checkboxes and radio buttons
  137. # [12:40] <othermaciej> and what they do is toggle it, not focus
  138. # [12:41] <othermaciej> is there any OS where clicking on the label next to a control focuses it in native UI?
  139. # [12:42] <annevk> dunno
  140. # [12:42] <zcorpan> on windows it seems like it's the label that has focus
  141. # [12:43] <othermaciej> you do want access-keys defined on the label to focus or activate the control I guess
  142. # [12:44] <annevk> i'd think so
  143. # [12:44] <othermaciej> except that accesskey is so tragically useless
  144. # [12:45] <annevk> ah, the complaint is indeed about activating
  145. # [12:45] <annevk> that clicking a label should always focus a textarea where other people say it should happen only when the OS defines it
  146. # [12:45] <annevk> makes sense to follow platform behavior
  147. # [12:45] <zcorpan> yup
  148. # [12:46] <annevk> otoh, some devices don't have a concept of a platform...
  149. # [12:46] <annevk> Nintendo Wii for instance
  150. # [12:46] <zcorpan> this isn't something that has to be interoperable
  151. # [12:46] <zcorpan> you do what makes sense for the UA or device
  152. # [12:47] <zcorpan> imho
  153. # [12:47] <annevk> sure
  154. # [12:47] <annevk> it's just annoying if you're cross platform :)
  155. # [12:47] <othermaciej> only if the platforms you target differ on this
  156. # [12:48] <othermaciej> I can't think of any platform where clicking a text field label in a native dialog focuses the text field
  157. # [12:48] <annevk> ok
  158. # [12:48] <annevk> (this is annoying with key events for instance)
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  161. # [12:58] <hsivonen> thesis printed and bound \o/
  162. # [13:01] <othermaciej> hsivonen: well done
  163. # [13:06] <annevk> will you bring it to XTech? :)
  164. # [13:08] <hsivonen> annevk: I wasn't planning to. should I?
  165. # [13:08] <annevk> not sure, but it might be nice to see it
  166. # [13:09] <annevk> howcome would certainly be pleased if he hears it's done using PrinceXML :)
  167. # [13:12] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess I could bring it. howcome already knows that it is set using Prince
  168. # [13:12] <hays> is that a ph.d thesis perchance?
  169. # [13:12] <hsivonen> hays: master's
  170. # [13:27] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  171. # [13:35] <Philip`> Non-blocking partial drawImage could be interesting if it worked with progressive JPEGs/PNGs... No idea if that's technically feasible, though
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  174. # [13:38] * Philip` also wonders what happens when you try drawing an animated GIF/PNG
  175. # [13:38] <annevk> hmm
  176. # [13:38] <annevk> feel free to follow-up
  177. # [13:38] <annevk> animated SVG would be another :)
  178. # [13:47] <Philip`> Ah, excellent, non-interoperability - Firefox draws whatever frame of animation is shown at the current point in time, and Opera refuses to draw animated images at all
  179. # [13:48] <annevk> I would not have expected anything else
  180. # [13:48] * Philip` adds it to his list of things to test properly
  181. # [13:49] * annevk wonders when an image starts animating
  182. # [13:49] <annevk> the moment .complete switches to true, the moment you have partial data or the moment it's inserted into the DOM, etc.
  183. # [13:49] <annevk> does that differ per image format? say SVG...
  184. # [13:51] * annevk ponders
  185. # [13:52] <annevk> the amount of choices you need to make when implementing something (and think of when writing a spec)...
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  191. # [14:22] <MichaelMH> why is the w3c website so ugly?
  192. # [14:25] <Philip`> Possibly because it was designed in 2002 and hasn't changed much since then
  193. # [14:25] <Philip`> (http://www.w3.org/2002/11/homepage)
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  196. # [14:29] <MichaelMH> yeah but who picked mongy brown?
  197. # [14:29] <MichaelMH> and they shove so much information on the one page.. it just looks messy
  198. # [14:30] <mpt> The Web was ever thus
  199. # [14:49] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  200. # [14:58] <Philip`> jgraham_: About lxml: sounds good! I'll be interested in playing with that once I have some more time
  201. # [15:02] * met_ is looking for help with Ian Hixie article for czech wikipedia 8-)
  202. # [15:02] * met_ hopes Hixie is sleeping now 8-)
  203. # [15:03] <met_> what should write in the basic sentence "Ian Hickson is...."
  204. # [15:03] <met_> expert for web technogies ?
  205. # [15:04] <met_> ...is programmer/developper is probably not correct (not his main interest)
  206. # [15:05] <Philip`> Does it have to be non-libellous?
  207. # [15:05] <met_> any suggestions, anyone who now Hixie i little bit?
  208. # [15:05] <met_> of course 8-)
  209. # [15:06] <Philip`> Oh, I can't think of anything then :-(
  210. # [15:06] <met_> something short like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hyatt
  211. # [15:06] <met_> basic info
  212. # [15:06] <met_> dunnot what write in the 1st sencence as his main characteristic
  213. # [15:07] * Quits: MichaelMH (n=Michael@87.254.67.30) ("Leaving")
  214. # [15:11] <jdandrea> anne: Would you prefer the "Changes from HTML4" page redirect to a new "Differences from HTML4" page? (Only two pages on the Wiki are affected - http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Changes_from_HTML4 )
  215. # [15:11] * jdandrea is happy to adjust it if it helps clarify things for visitors
  216. # [15:12] <jdandrea> s/anne/annevk
  217. # [15:15] <karlUshi> met_: http://ian.hixie.ch/ hixie by himself
  218. # [15:16] <met_> karlUshi now this page
  219. # [15:17] <met_> ok, we wrote "expert for web technoligies" (in Czech)
  220. # [15:18] <karlUshi> http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22ian+hickson+is+%22&btnG=Search
  221. # [15:20] <met_> ok we have it, and some photo under creative common licence (this licence is requirement for wikipedia)? 8-)
  222. # [15:21] <met_> http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Glazman looks better than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Glazman
  223. # [15:26] <met_> ok Pavel Cvrcek just saved http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hickson
  224. # [15:29] <met_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cindyli/265665723/ 8-)
  225. # [15:29] <met_> ok http://flickr.com/photos/distobj/15915885/
  226. # [15:34] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("bye")
  227. # [15:37] <annevk> jdandrea, I suppose that could work
  228. # [15:37] * Quits: briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106)
  229. # [15:38] <jdandrea> annevk: Can do ...
  230. # [15:38] <annevk> sure
  231. # [15:38] <jdandrea> s/Can/Will
  232. # [15:38] <annevk> k
  233. # [15:38] <Dashiva> "using <SPAN> and in-line styles is a significant improvement on using the <FONT> tag. <SPAN> is a well established neutral container, whereas <FONT> is purely presentational."
  234. # [15:38] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  235. # [15:38] <Dashiva> They just keep going and going and going...
  236. # [15:39] * karlUshi wonders if met_ is populating wikipedia with people's name and bios?
  237. # [15:39] <met_> not me but my friend yes
  238. # [15:39] <karlUshi> eeek
  239. # [15:39] <met_> and not people but people around web, browsers etc.
  240. # [15:40] * met_ only find he forgot Hixie
  241. # [15:40] <met_> is still does not exist in en wiki
  242. # [15:40] <karlUshi> met_: does he want to exit on wikipedia should have been the first question
  243. # [15:40] <met_> flickr.com is full of hixie photos but none is good for publishing 8-(
  244. # [15:41] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-93-9.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net)
  245. # [15:42] <met_> karlUshi, exit on? what you mean
  246. # [15:42] <Dashiva> exist, maybe
  247. # [15:42] <karlUshi> s/exit/exist/
  248. # [15:43] <met_> i am not wikipedist, but from the wikipedist point of view it is not question
  249. # [15:44] <met_> someone is important or not important for encyklopedia (not only wikipedia), it is the question
  250. # [15:44] <annevk> yeah, as is the case for Mark Pilgrim for instance
  251. # [15:44] <annevk> iirc
  252. # [15:48] <met_> karlUshi, some explanation why I wanted this
  253. # [15:49] <met_> when I write some czech article about whatwg, w3c, html5, many people have some wikipage so i can link it for details
  254. # [15:49] <met_> and every time hixie was one who. hadn't
  255. # [15:50] * met_ hope english version will come too
  256. # [15:51] <jdandrea> annevk: Differences from HTML4 now in place. WIki links adjusted. Original link still redirects.
  257. # [15:54] <hsivonen> Iana Hicksona could register en-GB-x-hixie :-)
  258. # [15:55] <annevk> it's actually a dialect to both en-GB and en-US
  259. # [15:55] <Dashiva> Does it make sense to register a x-prefix?
  260. # [15:56] <annevk> when registered you'd remove the prefix
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  263. # [15:56] <met_> hsivonen, do not understand 8-)
  264. # [15:56] <hsivonen> just slighly amused by the Czech genetive of Ian
  265. # [15:57] <met_> it's czech suffix
  266. # [15:57] <met_> ok
  267. # [15:57] <Dashiva> Hint: IANA
  268. # [15:57] <met_> ah 8-)
  269. # [15:59] <jdandrea> That's it! x-classname! :)
  270. # [16:00] <hsivonen> jdandrea: x- for registered classes? ;-)
  271. # [16:00] <jdandrea> No, for unregistered ones. (I kid.)
  272. # [16:00] <met_> and xxx- for adult only classes? 8-)
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  279. # [16:57] <mpt> en-hixie is a language with GB and US serializations
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  282. # [17:00] <annevk> That might violate the RFC...
  283. # [17:00] * annevk believes the second tag is reserved for locations
  284. # [17:01] <annevk> Maybe not... zh-Hans-TW for instance
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  288. # [17:08] <gsnedders> annevk: registration is required unless it is one of a special few (inc. x)
  289. # [17:08] <gsnedders> annevk: the requirements for registration allow all sorts of things for the second tag
  290. # [17:12] <annevk> yes, i just figured that out
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  292. # [17:40] <hsivonen> the length of a subtag is significant when deciding its role
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  318. # [20:01] <bewest> if you press "enter" in an input, what happens?
  319. # [20:01] <bewest> I'm having a hard time locating this in the spec, and AFAICT it's totally absent from the w3c html4 spec
  320. # [20:01] <bewest> apparently firefox will activate the next button-type element according to document order
  321. # [20:02] <bewest> and there doesn't seem to be any mechanism to alter it.
  322. # [20:03] <bewest> I thought perhaps tabindex would be suitable, but it doesn't work for a few reasons
  323. # [20:03] <bewest> would be nice for tabindex to be scoped to the form
  324. # [20:04] <Philip`> Do you mean something like where it says "If the platform supports letting the user submit a form implicitly (for example, on some platforms hitting the "enter" key while a text field is focused implicitly submits the form), then when doing so the form's default submit button must be the one used to initiate form submission"?
  325. # [20:07] <bewest> I'm talking about specifying it as one of the things missing from html4
  326. # [20:07] <bewest> so that we don't have to guess from implementation to implementation
  327. # [20:10] <bewest> so, yeah, something like that
  328. # [20:11] <bewest> so I guess allowing an attribute for describing which button should be the default for a form, and also making tabindex local to the form
  329. # [20:11] <bewest> latter might not be feasible
  330. # [20:16] <Hixie> the text Philip` quoted is in the spec
  331. # [20:16] <Hixie> and making a particular button the default is on the list for WF3
  332. # [20:20] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0509-dsr-forms/#(28)
  333. # [20:21] <bewest> oh
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  335. # [20:22] <bewest> what does default submit button currently mean?
  336. # [20:22] <bewest> Philip`: I didn't realize you were quoting from the spec. thanks
  337. # [20:22] <Hixie> in the spec, that part is a link, iirc
  338. # [20:24] <Philip`> bewest: Ah, sorry, I should have been clearer
  339. # [20:24] <Philip`> (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#enter-submit)
  340. # [20:25] <Philip`> ("User agents may establish a button in each form as being the form's default button. (This should be the first submit button in the form, but UAs may pick another button if another would be more appropriate for the platform.)")
  341. # [20:35] <Alystair> What's this $10,000 to David Hyatt thing in the Acknowledgements section at the botom of the web apps 1.0 spec?
  342. # [20:36] <bewest> Philip`: ah... I think that breaks what's out there currently
  343. # [20:36] <bewest> Philip`: depending on what is meant by "submit button"
  344. # [20:37] <bewest> Philip`: if it means type="submit" then that's not what currently happens
  345. # [20:37] <bewest> type="image" also counts in FF
  346. # [20:39] <Alystair> This is so cool, so, you guys are actually planning the future for HTML/etc? :)
  347. # [20:39] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#extensions3 - "... a submit button (an input or button element with the type attribute set to submit, or an input element with the type attribute set to image) ..."
  348. # [20:39] <bewest> ah
  349. # [20:40] <bewest> ah ok
  350. # [20:40] <bewest> that's what happens
  351. # [20:40] <bewest> good job, then. that's some high quality speccing
  352. # [20:40] <Philip`> Alystair: I think that's the idea :-)
  353. # [20:41] <bewest> and I look forward to being able to tell UA's which one is the default
  354. # [20:41] <Alystair> my earlier question still remains unanswered, I thought that work was unpaid here
  355. # [20:41] <Alystair> unless there was a $10k bounty for that specific algorithm
  356. # [20:41] <Philip`> bewest: It probably would be nicer if the spec linked to the definitions for all those terms, so you don't have to just search through the text, but at least the definitions do appear to exist
  357. # [20:41] <bewest> Philip`: yeah. and it matches what actually happens already
  358. # [20:42] <Philip`> Alystair: I have no idea what that thing means either
  359. # [20:42] * bewest wonders if tests are needed for this feature
  360. # [20:43] <Philip`> Tests are needed for every feature :-)
  361. # [20:43] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  362. # [20:43] <Philip`> ...unless someone's written some already
  363. # [20:43] * Alystair should really read the faq, the site looks like it contains 3 different designs though
  364. # [20:43] <bewest> Philip`: let me be more direct then: how do I know if tests for this feature already exist?
  365. # [20:44] <bewest> Alystair: for some individuals, this is there full time job
  366. # [20:44] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) (Client Quit)
  367. # [20:44] <bewest> Alystair: for example, the editor, Ian Hickson, is employed fulltime by google to do this work
  368. # [20:44] <Philip`> bewest: Hmm, I have no idea
  369. # [20:44] <bewest> Alystair: other stakeholders also recieve significant support from their companies to participate
  370. # [20:45] <Alystair> wow
  371. # [20:45] <bewest> Philip`: who would know?
  372. # [20:46] <bewest> Alystair: in particular, most of those stakeholders actually make browsers... and I imagine they balance their time between actually working on their browsers and participating in this and other, similar, groups
  373. # [20:46] <Philip`> (The last two in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/forms/input/submit/ seem kind of relevant)
  374. # [20:46] <Alystair> 15 years!
  375. # [20:47] <bewest> Philip`: yes, test 3 does it
  376. # [20:47] <bewest> and 4, evidently
  377. # [20:48] <Philip`> bewest: I'm unsure who would know of any other relevant tests
  378. # [20:48] <bewest> hmmm I'll browse through zcorpan's stuff
  379. # [20:49] * bewest doesn't see anything that looks relevant
  380. # [20:53] <Alystair> the faq's pretty funnny
  381. # [20:53] <Alystair> *funny
  382. # [20:55] <Philip`> Any particular bits? I think it's intended to be mostly serious :-)
  383. # [20:56] <Alystair> well, the whole xhtml/html war
  384. # [20:56] <bewest> Philip`: the part where one question redirects you to the next question, which redirects you to the previous question, which...
  385. # [20:57] <Alystair> I think the "Why do we need both HTML 5 and XHTML 2.0?" should really be fleshed out
  386. # [20:57] <Alystair> er answer to it
  387. # [20:57] <Alystair> "We don't!" isn't a legitimate answer to a serious question
  388. # [20:58] <bewest> Alystair: it's not considered a very serious problem, I think
  389. # [20:58] <bewest> Alystair: xhtml2 is DOA
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  394. # [21:03] <Hixie> annevk: what's the xml-not-well-formed access-control problem?
  395. # [21:10] <Alystair> ....
  396. # [21:14] <Hixie> Alystair: i updated the faq to answer that question
  397. # [21:14] <Alystair> danke
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  419. # [23:18] <zcorpan_> is a drocanian parser faster than a parser that does error recovery?
  420. # [23:19] <zcorpan_> http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/archive.php?id=2007/05/09/forward-towards-the-past
  421. # [23:20] <othermaciej> well, if there's an error right at the beginning of the document it will likely be faster to fail than a recovering one would be to succeed
  422. # [23:20] <zcorpan_> i mean if there are no errors
  423. # [23:21] <othermaciej> in the case where there are no errors, I don't know of any fundamental reason it would have to be slower
  424. # [23:21] <zcorpan_> i don't see it either
  425. # [23:21] <zcorpan_> but i keep hearing that xml parsers are so fast
  426. # [23:22] <zcorpan_> because they don't do error recovery
  427. # [23:22] <othermaciej> some forms of error recovery require maintaining extra buffers
  428. # [23:22] <othermaciej> but I don't think that effect dominates in practice
  429. # [23:22] <othermaciej> for WebKit at least, the XML parser we use works all in UTF-8
  430. # [23:22] <othermaciej> and otherwise our engine does everything in UTF-16
  431. # [23:22] <othermaciej> so I'm pretty sure it's slower than the HTML parser
  432. # [23:23] <zcorpan_> ok. i'm not surprised
  433. # [23:23] <zcorpan_> though my limited testing before with gecko showed that their xml parser was slightly faster than their html parser
  434. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> but that testing might well be flawed in some way
  435. # [23:24] <jruderman> what version of gecko did you test?
  436. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> it was probably 1.8
  437. # [23:24] <jruderman> incremental rendering for xml was only turned on recently, on trunk
  438. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> yeah
  439. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> when i tested incremental rendering wasn't implemented yet
  440. # [23:25] <jruderman> it's likely "slower" in simple measurements now that there is incremental rendering
  441. # [23:25] <jruderman> but "faster" in practice
  442. # [23:25] <jruderman> i don't know if incremental rendering happens with the same frequency between html and xml, so i wonder how you could compare the two sanely
  443. # [23:26] <zcorpan_> by not rendering anything? :)
  444. # [23:26] <zcorpan_> :root { display:none }
  445. # [23:26] <jruderman> perhaps
  446. # [23:27] <zcorpan_> i could do the benchmark again but i'm not curious enough
  447. # [23:27] <zcorpan_> http://zcorpan.1go.dk/test/parsing-benchmark/
  448. # [23:30] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  449. # [23:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: expat and the Gecko HTML parser are radically different. libxml2 and the WebKit HTML parser are likely different in other ways than operating on different code units.
  450. # [23:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: in Gecko, both operate on UTF-16, btw
  451. # [23:31] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  452. # [23:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but if you have roughly the same buffering code and implementation approach for both XML and HTML5, there's no fundamental reason why the HTML5 parser should be slower if you don't actually print out the errors (which tends to block on IO)
  453. # [23:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: after all, a Draconian parser has to have the if branches to detect errors
  454. # [23:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: in the conforming case, you don't take those branches
  455. # [23:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: in the conforming HTML5 case, you don't take the error branches, either
  456. # [23:33] <Hixie> error handling can actually be faster because you don't have to test for some of the errors -- you just ignore them completely
  457. # [23:33] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there are some cases where the recovering parser has to buffer in case an error occurs later
  458. # [23:34] <othermaciej> but what Hixie said is also true
  459. # [23:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: so in conforming cases, you pay the price of doing roughly similar checks in both cases
  460. # [23:34] <Hixie> e.g. the html5 parser doesn't have to check for what characters are allowed in attribute values
  461. # [23:34] <Hixie> it just looks for the ones that terminate it
  462. # [23:34] <othermaciej> I think there is no a priori reason to think one needs to be faster than the other
  463. # [23:34] <Hixie> which is (trivially) faster
  464. # [23:34] <Hixie> but yeah, it's not really worth talking about in practice, it's such a small effect either way
  465. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yeah, makes sense
  466. # [23:34] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the HTML5 parser has one extra stack, but the "buffering" happens in the DOM
  467. # [23:35] <hsivonen> othermaciej: no buffering penalty DOM vs. DOM
  468. # [23:35] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I agree for SAX, though
  469. # [23:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but basically, the fanboys saying that XML is so much faster probably have never benchmarked or implemented a markup parser :-)
  470. # [23:36] <othermaciej> HTML(tm) 5 can now officially be called that
  471. # [23:36] <hsivonen> ooh. something new in email?
  472. # [23:37] <othermaciej> aye (on public-html)
  473. # [23:38] <hsivonen> looks like Hixie has to do an SVN to CVS replay of revisions
  474. # [23:39] <hsivonen> "we suggest taking the rest of week off from
  475. # [23:39] <hsivonen> HTML WG email discussion." :-)
  476. # [23:39] <hsivonen> but yeah, great news!
  477. # [23:39] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: time to look at how large the diff is you mentioned before? :)
  478. # [23:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah :-)
  479. # [23:40] <othermaciej> unfortunately, most CVS <--> SVN tools are designed for going the other way
  480. # [23:40] * hsivonen looks
  481. # [23:40] <Philip`> Sounds like it'd be alright to just copy revision 785 into CVS, and then copy the latest version on top, rather than fiddling around with all the intermediate revisions
  482. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: good point
  483. # [23:40] <Philip`> (I guess people just want to know the difference between the version that they probably didn't read before voting, and the latest version)
  484. # [23:43] <Philip`> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=785&;to= - doesn't look like there's any major new contentious issues
  485. # [23:45] <hober> Would 'tailor' do the job?
  486. # [23:46] <Philip`> http://progetti.arstecnica.it/tailor/ ?
  487. # [23:46] <Philip`> There's only been ten revisions anyway, so it'd probably be quicker to do it by hand
  488. # [23:47] <zcorpan_> the html wg was launched march 7th, right? what was the revision of the WA1 spec then?
  489. # [23:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: The Diff: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=668&to=796
  490. # [23:47] <hober> IIRC, tailor could be used for bidirectional syncing
  491. # [23:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: 668
  492. # [23:48] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: cheers
  493. # [23:53] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  494. # [23:55] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  495. # [23:55] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  496. # [23:55] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  497. # [23:56] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  498. # Session Close: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)