/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) ("|")
  4. # [00:08] <zcorpan_> what benefit is there for markup consumers to be able to know that all <p>s are paragraphs in the english sense and not e.g. poems or thematic groups of form controls?
  5. # [00:09] * Joins: epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-faa40e601da8d41f)
  6. # [00:10] <Philip`> Perhaps someone doing automated corpus analysis of language used on the web, who wants to identify plain English sentences and not include spurious poems and form controls in their data?
  7. # [00:11] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  8. # [00:11] <zcorpan_> hrm. could be. but if it operated on the real web it would have to look at things that aren't <p>s anyway. because many aren't using <p>s at all
  9. # [00:11] <zcorpan_> and is there such an app anyway? sounds hypothetical to me
  10. # [00:12] <Philip`> Something like http://www.webcorp.org.uk/webcorp_linguistic_search_engine.html sounds similar
  11. # [00:13] <zcorpan_> interesting
  12. # [00:13] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8032739feea002e0) (Nick collision from services.)
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  14. # [00:13] <Philip`> But this is probably a case where it's only valuable if everybody in the world uses <p> correctly. That's never going to happen, so you have to implement heuristics/hacks anyway, so it doesn't matter if a few people do use <p> properly (particularly since you can't even identify whether someone is using it properly)
  15. # [00:14] <zcorpan_> also, what is the benefit for markup producers to differentiate between whether a piece of text is a paragraph or not? (making it easier for the aforementioned app is one reason...) how would it work in a wysiwyg context?
  16. # [00:15] <Philip`> (I would tend to believe that semantics on the web only works when content creators benefit from doing it right, content consumers benefit from creators doing it right, and consumers don't suffer when creators get it wrong)
  17. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Things like <meta> keywords managed the first two of those, but died out because of the third point)
  18. # [00:16] <zcorpan_> makes sense
  19. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> i'm trying to understand the issue toolman has with <p> but i still don't get it
  20. # [00:18] <othermaciej> I agree with Philip`
  21. # [00:18] <othermaciej> if we favor better markup, the right way to get it is to create positive incentives for doing it right
  22. # [00:19] <zcorpan_> yeah
  23. # [00:19] <jgraham_> Yeah. We don't have a stick so we have to try and use carrots
  24. # [00:20] <zcorpan_> the xhtml2 wg have sticks :)
  25. # [00:20] <bewest> hehe
  26. # [00:20] <jgraham_> Nah the xhtml2 wg are _stuck_
  27. # [00:20] <jgraham_> ;)
  28. # [00:20] <zcorpan_> oh right
  29. # [00:25] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  30. # [00:27] <bewest> hmmm I thought I recently saw something that was able to compare html5lib dom and your browser's DOM.
  31. # [00:27] <bewest> who did that?
  32. # [00:27] <bewest> maybe I should search the archive
  33. # [00:28] <zcorpan_> it was probably jgraham_
  34. # [00:28] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-185.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  35. # [00:28] <bewest> yeah, probably
  36. # [00:30] <Philip`> http://hasather.net/html5/parsetree/ or a different one?
  37. # [00:31] <bewest> dunno
  38. # [00:35] <jgraham_> bewest: The other possibility is http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/html5view.html
  39. # [00:36] <jgraham_> (otherwise it's something someone else did)
  40. # [00:39] <bewest> yes
  41. # [00:39] <bewest> I think that's it
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  43. # [01:12] <zcorpan_> wow. one of my deliverables uses <p>...<table>...</table></p>
  44. # [01:13] <zcorpan_> which is probably due to me omitting the </p> tag and the server side guy wanted to have the tag present but didn't realise that it should go before the table
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  50. # [01:55] * Philip` finds another Opera bug to add to his list, while trying to draw dashed lines
  51. # [01:55] * Philip` will have to try to sort the list out into a more useful format at some point
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  54. # [02:06] <Philip`> Hixie: About transformed patterns: I think I'd vote for that feature, depending on how it'd work - the floor in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/floor5.jpg counts as my use case, since it draws diagonal bits of texture onto thin horizontal strips of floor, and the maths to get all the transforms and coordinates correct was rather unpleasant to work out
  55. # [02:06] * Parts: yod (n=ot@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net) ("Leaving")
  56. # [02:06] <Philip`> and I have a whole piece of A4 paper covered with lots of scribbling to demonstrate the unpleasantness :-)
  57. # [02:07] <Philip`> (or at least to demonstrate that I've forgotten much of the geometry and trigonometry I used to know...)
  58. # [02:07] <Hixie> heh
  59. # [02:07] <Hixie> yeah, you should see my whiteboard right now
  60. # [02:07] <Hixie> just to make the testcases
  61. # [02:08] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-103-004.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("Leaving")
  62. # [02:08] <Hixie> however for 3D i think we'll provide a 3D canvas
  63. # [02:08] <Hixie> which would be better :-)
  64. # [02:08] <Philip`> That would be significantly more sane than my approach to 3D
  65. # [02:08] <Hixie> :-)
  66. # [02:11] <Hixie> man i wish opera had an auto-upgrade feature like firefox
  67. # [02:11] <bewest> yes, firefox has nailed it
  68. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I wish (nightly) Webkit/Safari had auto-upgrade too
  69. # [02:12] <Philip`> IE does auto-upgrade too
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  71. # [02:12] * MikeSmith looks around for othermaciej/mjs ...
  72. # [02:13] <Hixie> safari does have autoupdate. but yes. would be nice if the nightlies did too.
  73. # [02:14] <hober> there's NightShift.app for that
  74. # [02:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net) ("Get thee behind me, satan.")
  75. # [02:16] <Hixie> hm, how did i not know about that
  76. # [02:17] <hober> the same guy does CaminoKnight and FireFix for those nightlies"
  77. # [02:19] * om_afk is now known as othermaciej
  78. # [02:19] <othermaciej> Safari uses the Mac OS X system autoupdate mechanism
  79. # [02:20] <othermaciej> ("Software Updates")
  80. # [02:20] <othermaciej> we don't have an official autoupdate for the nightlies though
  81. # [02:22] <Hixie> wow, NightShift is awesome
  82. # [02:22] <hober> yeah, it's really nice
  83. # [02:23] <othermaciej> it is cool indeed
  84. # [02:24] <othermaciej> we really should link it from webkit.org if we haven't already
  85. # [02:32] <gavin_> ah, I was looking for solution to that problem yesterday
  86. # [02:32] <gavin_> guess I'll try out nightshift!
  87. # [02:36] <Hixie> oh hey i never noticed the images were broken in the multipage version
  88. # [02:36] * Hixie adds it to the list of things to fix today
  89. # [02:39] <Philip`> Oops - I think I originally was modifying them to be absolute paths, but must have removed that at some point
  90. # [02:39] <Hixie> no worries
  91. # [02:39] <Hixie> simple fix
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  95. # [02:43] <zcorpan_> Hixie: btw, you think it's possible to add an alternative style sheet for the author view thing when it gets more complete? or perhaps it can be inserted with the status script
  96. # [02:44] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/author-view-of-html5.css is a simple urllib.urlopen().read() with python
  97. # [02:44] <Hixie> sure
  98. # [02:45] <zcorpan_> perhaps the style sheet should be hosted at whatwg.org instead of being in my temp folder too? :)
  99. # [02:45] <Hixie> if you can keep it up to date :-)
  100. # [02:45] <Philip`> or perhaps a try: urllib.urlopen().read(); except: pass so it doesn't die horribly if that file goes missing :-)
  101. # [02:45] <Hixie> zcorpan_: the problem is mostly that it's so brittle
  102. # [02:46] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i'd love a more stable solution
  103. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> yeah, me too
  104. # [02:46] <Hixie> zcorpan_: we could maybe merge this with the status thing -- make it possible for individual sentences or paragraphs to be clicked and for a menu to come up so you can set the stability and target audience of that text
  105. # [02:47] <Hixie> the stability isn't something i'd want to keep in the spec text. maybe the target audience should be classes, though.
  106. # [02:47] <zcorpan_> yeah
  107. # [02:48] <zcorpan_> when the style sheet is complete you can perhaps map the selectors to the markup to get the source class=""ed automatically
  108. # [02:49] <Hixie> that would be interesting
  109. # [02:49] <Hixie> except the stylesheet applies to the index, and i'd have to edit the source
  110. # [02:50] <bewest> is it xslt-able?
  111. # [02:50] <Philip`> Would the target audience for the 'author' part be 'authors of HTML pages', or would it be 'authors of books and tutorials and blog posts and mailing list messages pointing out what the spec says is correct'? (I'm unsure how that would affect anything)
  112. # [02:50] <bewest> the spec is semantic html, right?
  113. # [02:50] <Hixie> bewest: yes
  114. # [02:50] <Hixie> not sure what you mean by "xslt-able" though
  115. # [02:51] <bewest> might produce alternative versions via xslt
  116. # [02:51] <Hixie> producing the alternate versions isn't the problem
  117. # [02:51] <Hixie> it's annotating the source that's the problem
  118. # [02:55] <zcorpan_> you write an implementation of getElementsBySelector() in perl or something to modify the source. then the editor(s) would have to maintain the class=""es
  119. # [02:55] <Hixie> the problem is that the selectors don't apply to the source, they apply to the index
  120. # [02:56] <zcorpan_> ah
  121. # [02:56] <zcorpan_> right
  122. # [02:56] <zcorpan_> hm
  123. # [02:56] <Hixie> might be not too bad
  124. # [02:56] <Hixie> we'll see
  125. # [02:56] <Hixie> not doing it right now anyway :-)
  126. # [02:57] <zcorpan_> yeah
  127. # [02:58] <Philip`> Perhaps parse the index document and work out what the CSS applies to, then remember the text which is matched, and then go back to the source and find the equivalent matching text (because that won't have been modified by the spec conversion process)
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  138. # [03:53] <jdandrea> FWIW: sIFR includes a JavaScript function that parses CSS selectors and returns a list of one or more corresponding DOM nodes. That might help with parsing.
  139. # [04:15] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/
  140. # [04:16] <Hixie> RIP Web Applications 1.0
  141. # [04:16] <Hixie> Long Live HTML 5!
  142. # [04:24] <Lachy> wow! That's fantastic news to wake up to :-)
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  144. # [04:35] <othermaciej> I call conflict of interst
  145. # [04:35] <othermaciej> Dave Hyatt is an editor, and the spec calls for giving him $10,000
  146. # [04:35] <Lachy> LOL
  147. # [04:36] <jdandrea> Whoa - "good morning!" :)
  148. # [04:36] <othermaciej> I guess it would be good to fold in WF2 soon
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  154. # [05:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: hah
  155. # [05:53] <Hixie> you know
  156. # [05:53] <Hixie> we could now easily make our first milestone
  157. # [05:54] <Hixie> FPWD on the TR page in June
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  159. # [06:38] <marcosc> Hixie, I don't see why now?
  160. # [06:38] <marcosc> not*
  161. # [06:41] <Hixie> indeed, i'm saying we can :-)
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  163. # [07:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: I expect many of the objections to adopting the document to be rehashed at FPWD time
  164. # [07:15] <Hixie> i'm sure
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  175. # [08:28] <Hixie> i hate browsers
  176. # [08:28] <Hixie> i have a test here, and 6 different renderings
  177. # [08:29] <Hixie> i'm only testing three browsers!
  178. # [08:29] <Hixie> (several versions of those browsers, but still!)
  179. # [08:29] <Hixie> firefox3 passes the test, so i'm saying we have interoperability and going home
  180. # [08:31] <othermaciej> yeah, browsers kinda suck
  181. # [08:31] <othermaciej> unless you want to browse the web
  182. # [08:35] <Hixie> right, going home
  183. # [08:35] <Hixie> nn
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  185. # [08:51] <nickshanks> will things decided by WHAT WG go into HTML 5 now, or will the W3C have a veto?
  186. # [08:52] <citoyen> WHATWG decides what goes into specs published by WHATWG. W3C decides what goes into specs published by W3C.
  187. # [08:53] <citoyen> Either group doesn't have veto over the other
  188. # [08:53] <othermaciej> they will be the same spec
  189. # [08:53] <Lachy> actually, the editors decide what goes into the spec based on feedback from the whatwg, htmlwg and many other sources
  190. # [08:54] <othermaciej> I expect the editors will abide by HTML WG decisions, though I would hope official votes overriding the editors would be rare
  191. # [08:54] <citoyen> Same spec, but as long as that spec is published by W3C, W3C has the last say. WHATWG can choose to go with that or publish a different spec.
  192. # [08:54] <Lachy> I hope they never happen
  193. # [08:54] <othermaciej> the WHATWG group that in theory could remove or override the editor is very unlikely to demand introduction of conflicting language
  194. # [08:54] <othermaciej> if that happened presumably the efforts would fork
  195. # [08:55] <citoyen> Indeed
  196. # [08:56] <nickshanks> how close to done is the spec, in most people's opinions? another year, another three years?
  197. # [08:56] <othermaciej> I think it's premature to predict that
  198. # [08:56] <othermaciej> I think there is still some speccing of new features to potentially be done, but at some point I would guess the group would want to self-impose a feature freeze
  199. # [08:57] <othermaciej> and every section needs close review
  200. # [08:57] <othermaciej> and it depends on whether "done" means CR or REC
  201. # [08:57] <nickshanks> CR i was meaning
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  207. # [09:35] <annevk> whoa, we're in W3C CVS?
  208. # [09:35] <annevk> nifty
  209. # [09:40] <othermaciej> yep
  210. # [09:43] <othermaciej> now we need issue tracking
  211. # [09:43] <annevk> we should now have a #whatwg party
  212. # [09:44] <othermaciej> and a test suite in SVN
  213. # [09:44] <othermaciej> I would be all for a party
  214. # [09:44] <annevk> s/#whatwg/WHATWG/
  215. # [09:53] <othermaciej> when / where to have it?
  216. # [09:54] <annevk> that's the problematic part
  217. # [09:54] <othermaciej> or perhaps we should let Hixie decide, taking relevant feedback into account
  218. # [09:54] <annevk> hehe
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  223. # [11:05] <jgraham_> Philip`: If you want to play with the lxml stuff in html5lib it should be in svn now. You'll need to look at html5lib.treebuilders.getTreeBuilder to see how to get it working; I've changed the way elementtree stuff works a bit (suggestions for improvements to that interface welcome). Let me know if it's broken; it only passes tests, I don't know it is works ;)
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  233. # [11:51] <zcorpan_> won't dhyatt be an editor for the whatwg spec too, automatically?
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  235. # [11:52] <Dashiva> implicitly
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  237. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> yeah. the whatwg-header just needs an update then :)
  238. # [11:55] <annevk> I think dhyatt will only update the W3C body though
  239. # [11:57] <annevk> "Special thanks and $10,000 to David Hyatt who came up with a broken implementation of the adoption agency algorithm that the editor had to reverse engineer and fix before using it in the parsing section." will also become confusing now :)
  240. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> yeah
  241. # [11:59] <zcorpan_> why "HTML 5" and not "HTML5" though? :P
  242. # [12:00] <annevk> yeah, that annoys me too
  243. # [12:00] <annevk> oh well
  244. # [12:03] <zcorpan_> perhaps "HTML 5" is the spec and "HTML5" is the language?
  245. # [12:03] <Lachy> I'm surprised they didn't go with HTML 5.0
  246. # [12:04] <Lachy> :-)
  247. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> that would be even more annoying :)
  248. # [12:05] <zcorpan_> isn't it a convension of w3c specs to give the expansion in the title?
  249. # [12:05] <zcorpan_> HyperText Markup Language (HTML) 5
  250. # [12:06] <annevk> all in due course
  251. # [12:06] <Lachy> HTML4 was HTML 4.0, and then 4.01
  252. # [12:06] <Lachy> similarly with HTML2 and 3
  253. # [12:07] <zcorpan_> HyperText Markup Language 5.0 (HTML5)
  254. # [12:07] <annevk> W3C version also carefully avoids copyright at this time
  255. # [12:08] <Lachy> zcorpan_, yeah, except lowcase 't' in "Hypertext"
  256. # [12:09] <annevk> Web Markup Language (HTML5)
  257. # [12:10] <zcorpan_> HTML 5 (HTML5)
  258. # [12:10] <annevk> HTML (HTML5)
  259. # [12:10] <annevk> HTML5
  260. # [12:15] <othermaciej> I can think of 1.0 reasons to just call it HTML 5
  261. # [12:27] * Joins: Dashimon (i=Dashiva@v035b.studby.ntnu.no)
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  265. # [12:36] <krijnh> Web 2.0 Language ((X)HTML5)
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  269. # [12:48] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: what is that reason?
  270. # [12:53] <krijnh> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/ still says WA1.0
  271. # [13:05] <Dashiva> zcorpan_: From the 1.0 I'm guessing minor versions
  272. # [13:12] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: because integers don't need to be written in decimal notation
  273. # [13:12] <othermaciej> and look nicer that way
  274. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: oh, i thought you meant as opposed to HTML5 (without a space)
  275. # [13:15] <othermaciej> yeah, I meant as opposed to 5.0
  276. # [13:15] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@118.166.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  277. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> ok
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  282. # [13:50] <Hemebond> Quick question: why does HTML5 define a way for a web page to control the user-agent?
  283. # [13:50] <Lachy> Hemebond, which feature are you referring to?
  284. # [13:50] <Hemebond> The target attribute.
  285. # [13:50] <Hemebond> And browser contexts.
  286. # [13:51] <Hemebond> *browsing
  287. # [13:51] <Lachy> target has usecases for working with frames, and the reason for allowing _blank is basically to stop people using window.open()
  288. # [13:52] <annevk> because (a) it needs to be supported and (b) there are use cases for having multiple browsing contexts
  289. # [13:52] <annevk> you can't have a user agent that does not support target=
  290. # [13:52] <annevk> (from a vendor pov)
  291. # [13:52] <Hemebond> Lame.
  292. # [13:52] <annevk> an author typically wants an easy way to show something in a new window
  293. # [13:53] <annevk> target=_blank is useful for that
  294. # [13:53] <annevk> how the UA handles that is up to the UA
  295. # [13:53] <annevk> of course
  296. # [13:53] <Hemebond> annevk: Which is why I use Firefox and disable such an annoying a abusive feature.
  297. # [13:53] <annevk> (like a help menu for the site, or something)
  298. # [13:53] <annevk> Hemebond, right, I've done something similar in Opera
  299. # [13:53] <annevk> we can't simply ignore reality though
  300. # [13:54] <Philip`> When something like _blank is defined and allowed, rather than having to be hacked around with window.open(), then it is much easier for the UA to give the user control to change the default behaviour
  301. # [13:54] <othermaciej> I like target compared to window.open because it lets me see where the link is going, tells me that it will open in a new window, and I can cmd-click to get a tab instead
  302. # [13:54] <othermaciej> (in Safari)
  303. # [13:55] <Hemebond> Philip`: Letting a script open a window is definitely the fault of the browser developer.
  304. # [13:56] <Hemebond> I'm still disappointed a spec explicitly um....
  305. # [13:56] <Hemebond> specifies it
  306. # [13:56] <annevk> better than what HTML4 did
  307. # [13:56] <Hemebond> Ignore it?
  308. # [13:56] <othermaciej> actually, it's the fault of past browser developers who invented the feature, site authors who use it, and users who get mad if those sites break
  309. # [13:56] <annevk> specify a target= feature and don't tell how to implement it
  310. # [13:56] <wilhelm> UAs must support this feature, so it must be specified. But I agree that authors should be discouraged from using it.
  311. # [13:57] <Hemebond> annevk: I thought there was no target att in HTML4. Or maybe that's just strict.
  312. # [13:57] <annevk> it's not in HTML4 strict
  313. # [13:57] <Lachy> Hemebond, it's in transitional
  314. # [13:57] <Hemebond> wilhelm: Putting it in a spec won't help that.
  315. # [13:57] <annevk> Hemebond, the spec is not just for authors
  316. # [13:58] <annevk> Hemebond, the spec is also to ensure we still understand HTML a century from now
  317. # [13:58] <othermaciej> not putting it in a spec won't make UAs remove either target or window.open
  318. # [13:58] <Hemebond> I know, but if it's in the spec, UA developers HAVE to put it in if they want to support the spec.
  319. # [13:58] <Lachy> Hemebond, would you rather authors use target="", which you can easily disable, or hack around it with window.open(), which is much harder to disable?
  320. # [13:58] <othermaciej> window.open has never even been in a spec before
  321. # [13:58] <annevk> Hemebond, they will have to do so anyway
  322. # [13:58] <Hemebond> annevk: Not to support HTML5.
  323. # [13:58] <Lachy> UAs have to put it in because there is content that relies on it. Not because it's in a spec
  324. # [13:58] <wilhelm> It will. Browser vendors need a common spec to implement stuff interoperably.
  325. # [13:59] <annevk> Hemebond, there won't be such UAs
  326. # [13:59] <Hemebond> annevk: er, if it wasn't in HTML5 already that is.
  327. # [13:59] <annevk> Hemebond, UAs will support the web
  328. # [13:59] <annevk> Hemebond, the web includes target=
  329. # [13:59] <Hemebond> I see all your points. I'm still disappointed.
  330. # [13:59] <annevk> so if HTML5 ignores it that just makes it a less useful spec
  331. # [14:00] <Hemebond> annevk: Does HTML5 include blink?
  332. # [14:00] <Hemebond> And marquee?
  333. # [14:00] <annevk> Hemebond, I think marquee should be in the rendering section
  334. # [14:00] <Lachy> in the parsing and rendering section, yes
  335. # [14:00] <annevk> blink doesn't seem to be strictly needed
  336. # [14:00] <Hemebond> But people use it.
  337. # [14:00] <Philip`> "The scope of this specification does not include documenting every HTML or DOM feature supported by Web browsers. Browsers support many features that are considered to be very bad for accessibility or that are otherwise inappropriate. For example, the blink element is clearly presentational and authors wishing to cause text to blink should instead use CSS."
  338. # [14:01] <Hemebond> And UAs support it.
  339. # [14:01] <annevk> IE doesn't
  340. # [14:01] <wilhelm> <blink> is not used anymore. <marquee> is, and should be specified.
  341. # [14:01] <Lachy> it will just be defined to use text-decoration: blink;, which is optional in CSS anyway
  342. # [14:01] <Hemebond> "Browsers support many features that are considered to be very bad for accessibility or that are otherwise inappropriate." I would have put target in that little list.
  343. # [14:02] <Lachy> <blink> is used. See http://www.w3.org/Style/ for instance :-)
  344. # [14:02] <Hemebond> annevk: IE doesn't support what? Blink? I thought it created it. Was it Netscape?
  345. # [14:02] <annevk> Hemebond, Netscape created it
  346. # [14:02] <annevk> Hemebond, IE did <marquee>
  347. # [14:02] <othermaciej> netscape created <blink> and supports it
  348. # [14:02] <othermaciej> there's not significant demand for actual support of <blink>, in fact Mozilla is often asked to remove it
  349. # [14:02] <othermaciej> <marquee> is needed though, apparently a lot of chinese sites use it
  350. # [14:03] * wilhelm nods.
  351. # [14:04] <Hemebond> I'll have to continue reading this tomorrow. Night.
  352. # [14:04] * Parts: Hemebond (n=Hemebond@203.109.175.198)
  353. # [14:05] <gsnedders> the references currently say "This section will be written in a future draft." — is there any interest in others helping to put this together as it is now?
  354. # [14:08] <mpt> I wonder if Lynx is non-conforming for not supporting target=
  355. # [14:12] <Philip`> I'd guess it falls in the "If the user agent has been configured such that in this instance it will reuse the current browsing context" category which allows it to never create a new browsing context when you follow a link
  356. # [14:13] <Philip`> (I think it would still have to support multiple browsing contexts with e.g. <iframe>s, and support target aimed at that iframe)
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  359. # [14:29] <hsivonen> I'd be interested in learning *why* Chinese designers like marquee so much.
  360. # [14:30] <Dashiva> The same reason japanese developers love document.all, maybe
  361. # [14:30] <annevk> and why Koreans do onfocus=this.blur()
  362. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Dashiva: eh? document.all is not a particular visual effect
  363. # [14:31] <annevk> lol
  364. # [14:31] <annevk> compat with existing party venues :)
  365. # [14:32] <wilhelm> hsivonen: Colourful, flashing, blinking, moving objects are more popular in east Asia than in Europe..(c:
  366. # [14:33] <othermaciej> I would guess it is related to their design culture and writing system
  367. # [14:33] <othermaciej> (possibly)
  368. # [14:33] <Dashiva> hsivonen: They're both antiquated, though
  369. # [14:34] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@bokd099.rhi.hi.is)
  370. # [14:34] <gsnedders> probably partly due to what people are taught
  371. # [14:34] <gsnedders> you're more likely to learn something your elders do
  372. # [14:34] <hsivonen> design culture without any particular reason sounds plausible but ins't the writing system visually more compact and, hence, doesn't put as much pressure on fitting more text in a certain page region
  373. # [14:36] <Dashiva> I wonder if homebrew vertical marquees are as popular
  374. # [14:37] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think a lot of these are vertical one-time marquees
  375. # [14:37] <othermaciej> hsivonen: not certain of the details though
  376. # [14:41] <Philip`> I see 24 marquees in my totally biased collection of 2500 pages
  377. # [14:41] <Philip`> and 12 blinks
  378. # [14:41] <Dashiva> I wonder what is more common of <blink> and CSS blink
  379. # [14:42] <hsivonen> marquee is interesting politically, because accessibility and internationalization collide
  380. # [14:46] <Philip`> marquee seems quite common in 'professional' sites - http://www.washtimes.com/ http://www.sunnewsonline.com/ http://www.theobserver.com/ http://www.andhrabank-india.com/ http://www.anc.org.za/ etc
  381. # [14:46] <Philip`> whereas blink seems to be more in less-professional sites - http://www.applequest.org/ http://www.yorkcarpet.com/ http://www.aplus4u.com/ http://www.discount-train.com/ etc
  382. # [14:47] <Philip`> though those two lists are even more biased data than what I started with, so please don't actually believe them
  383. # [14:48] <Philip`> (I don't have data for any non-English sites to compare)
  384. # [14:49] <othermaciej> is <marquee> better or worse than an ad-hoc marquee done with JS?
  385. # [14:49] <annevk> is target= better or worse than window.open()
  386. # [14:49] <annevk> although maybe they're not quite the same question...
  387. # [14:49] <Dashiva> A scripted solution is more flexible, but inaccessible to non-script
  388. # [14:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: better, because it is easier to isolate and turn off <marquee>
  389. # [14:51] <Philip`> The scripted vertical marquee-like thing at http://www.andhrabank-india.com/ is rather broken in Firefox 3, and overlaps nearby text - native marquee support would make it easier to avoid bugs like that
  390. # [14:52] <Philip`> Oh, it's half broken in Firefox 2 too
  391. # [14:52] <Philip`> (but works fine in Opera)
  392. # [14:53] <Dashiva> I'm not sure I would call that one a marquee, since it doesn't scroll in the text direction
  393. # [14:53] <Philip`> but still the real <marquee> works correctly in all of them
  394. # [14:54] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's similar enough that they'd probably use the same code for simulating a horizontal marquee if there was no <marquee>, and it would similarly break, which wouldn't be good, hence <marquee> being better because it actually does work
  395. # [14:55] * Philip` trusts browser developers to write bug-free code much more than he trusts authors of JS code on random web sites
  396. # [14:59] <annevk> whoa, people want <form method=trace>
  397. # [15:00] <annevk> I suppose will address security and actual semantics of such posts some other time?
  398. # [15:00] <annevk> s/such posts/such forms/
  399. # [15:01] <annevk> especially since HTML is not just used over HTTP
  400. # [15:02] <othermaciej> I vaguely remember that http "trace" has security issues
  401. # [15:03] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  402. # [15:03] <annevk> indeed
  403. # [15:03] <Dashiva> I vaguely remember http trace not being that useful for submitting forms...
  404. # [15:04] <Lachy> heh, he wants HEAD and CONNECT too.
  405. # [15:04] <Lachy> CONNECT is used for https connections, so that's not necessary for use in a form method
  406. # [15:04] <Philip`> I can't see why it'd be more useful than just having an echo script on the server, unless I'm misunderstanding the purpose
  407. # [15:05] <jdandrea> othermaciej: yes, trace can be abused via XSS attacks. http://www.google.com/search?q=xss+http+trace
  408. # [15:05] <Philip`> (unless you want to use Max-Forwards to do something equivalent to traceroute but at the HTTP level instead of the IP level; but you wouldn't do that in a form on a web page...)
  409. # [15:05] * Joins: MichaelMH (n=Michael@87.254.67.30)
  410. # [15:06] <annevk> TRACE and CONNECT are both dangerous
  411. # [15:06] <annevk> maybe I should explicitly list them in XHR
  412. # [15:07] * annevk ponders
  413. # [15:08] <jdandrea> Q: Should the decision to use trace/track/etc. be left to the web server admin/config (since these are HTTP methods)? It can be disabled there.
  414. # [15:09] <annevk> that's not where the request originates though
  415. # [15:09] <jdandrea> annevk: ah
  416. # [15:09] <annevk> which is what we're talking about
  417. # [15:09] <jdandrea> annevk: misunderstood the thread then - re-reading
  418. # [15:10] <jdandrea> People want <form method=trace>, is that correct?
  419. # [15:11] <annevk> yeah and other method names
  420. # [15:20] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  421. # [15:20] <jdandrea> OK. If I understand correctly, the TRACE request originates in the HTML, is processed by the UA, and ultimately received by a HTTP server/proxy/gateway.
  422. # [15:20] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  423. # [15:22] * met_ just returned from presentation of Silverlight
  424. # [15:22] * jdandrea reconsiders - trace isn't supported now, so ... nothing lost, nothing gained.
  425. # [15:22] <jdandrea> met_: and ... ? :)
  426. # [15:23] <met_> doen't mention all flash like fearures, there is only one imporant i think
  427. # [15:23] <met_> HD streaming video
  428. # [15:23] <met_> Sliverlight is trying to compete with Flash and hit FLV format
  429. # [15:24] <met_> there is website http://silverlight.live.com/ where people can upload their silverlight app with videos up to 5GB
  430. # [15:24] <Philip`> jdandrea: I think it would only be handled by an HTTP server, not a proxy/gateway, unless you can set the Max-Forwards header (which I don't think is possible in a form)
  431. # [15:24] <Philip`> I bet they don't support Theora :-(
  432. # [15:24] <met_> and there is one american website like youtoube but based on silverlight (forgot the name)
  433. # [15:24] <annevk> FYI: There will be an open "browser" day on May 15, Paris, to discuss browsers, open standards and all that crap from 9-5 XTech venue.
  434. # [15:25] <jdandrea> Philip `: Aye, I was quoting sec 9.8 here: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html
  435. # [15:25] <jdandrea> (well, referencing anyway)
  436. # [15:25] <annevk> No entrance cost whatsoever
  437. # [15:25] <jdandrea> Good point (max-forwards) - missed that
  438. # [15:25] <annevk> Supposedly David (Storey, from Opera) and Molly (molly.com) will post something later today on blogs
  439. # [15:25] * Quits: MichaelMH (n=Michael@87.254.67.30) ("Leaving")
  440. # [15:26] <met_> during yeard Silverlight can compete with all flash and flv i thing, but this is the only place where it can be succesful , i suppose
  441. # [15:26] <annevk> Hopefully the XTech schedule page will be updated as well. Although this is slightly different from the rest in that it's free and announced way too late for some people I guess :(
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  445. # [15:50] <Dashiva> Hixie: You mentioned reworking the repetition model for wf2 earlier, didn't you? Are the results available anywhere?
  446. # [15:51] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: on his whiteboard
  447. # [15:58] * mpt realizes that Silverlight's logo is a blue nappy/diaper
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  450. # [16:02] <met_> mpt 8-)
  451. # [16:02] * met_ found similarity with blue logo on http://www.silverlight.com/
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  457. # [17:00] <Lachy> hey, I've been asked to do another presentation on HTML5 in August, and I need to come up with an interesting way to present it. Anyone have any suggestions?
  458. # [17:00] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net)
  459. # [17:01] <Philip`> Write the whole presentation in <canvas>?
  460. # [17:01] <Lachy> I could make use of <canvas>
  461. # [17:01] <annevk> use XHTML5
  462. # [17:01] <Lachy> see http://www.openpublish.com.au/
  463. # [17:02] * annevk did that
  464. # [17:02] <Lachy> that's where the presentation will be
  465. # [17:02] <annevk> nobody noticed though
  466. # [17:04] <Philip`> That's just syntax, and barely worth noticing :-)
  467. # [17:04] <annevk> hah, try to convince people of that story
  468. # [17:05] * Philip` ought to try to work out what makes so many HTML pages unrepresentable as XML
  469. # [17:06] <Philip`> (I noticed things like "<!-------->" in one case, but most sites seemed to have different problems instead, but it wasn't obvious exactly what was wrong)
  470. # [17:06] <Lachy> since it's more business/managemetn oriented conference, rather than technology-oriented, perhaps I could talk about the benefits that HTML5 will provide...
  471. # [17:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  472. # [17:10] <krijnh> annevk: I stole your presentation format yesterday btw, used it for 2 presentations
  473. # [17:11] <annevk> "presentation format"? hah
  474. # [17:11] <krijnh> Lachy: What's the first business benefit that comes to mind?
  475. # [17:11] <krijnh> annevk: Yeah, it rocks ;)
  476. # [17:11] <annevk> ???? profit!
  477. # [17:11] <krijnh> <p class="one-liner"> and stuff
  478. # [17:11] <krijnh> Profit?
  479. # [17:11] <krijnh> ;P
  480. # [17:12] <Dashiva> Rich internet applications, krijnh
  481. # [17:12] <krijnh> I think the extensions to <input> are immediate benefits
  482. # [17:12] <Lachy> krijnh, faster and cheaper client side development with improved features and interop
  483. # [17:12] <Lachy> krijnh, more interactive applications
  484. # [17:12] <annevk> fyi: http://www.molly.com/2007/05/10/blue-sky-web-browser-standards-and-interop-summit-xtech-paris/
  485. # [17:12] <annevk> also: http://my.opera.com/dstorey/blog/show.dml/993551
  486. # [17:16] <krijnh> Faster, cheaper, more, wow
  487. # [17:17] <annevk> Web 5.0
  488. # [17:17] <annevk> ????
  489. # [17:17] <annevk> $$ * 5
  490. # [17:17] <krijnh> Now that sells
  491. # [17:17] <krijnh> :)
  492. # [17:36] <gsnedders> 5 > 2.
  493. # [17:37] <met_> Web 5 > Web 2 ?
  494. # [17:37] <gsnedders> met_: this time yes.
  495. # [17:38] <gsnedders> met_: http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/ — it was originally a play on HTML5 > XHTML2
  496. # [17:40] <met_> gsnedders this I know, have wallperar in desktop http://whatwg.majda.cz/wallpapers/
  497. # [17:40] <gsnedders> :P
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  534. # [21:32] <Hixie> can someone (zcorpan?) reply to Kristof Zelechovski's mail?
  535. # [21:35] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-183-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  536. # [21:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: which one?
  537. # [21:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net)
  538. # [21:37] <Hixie> the one about the thing with the thing.
  539. # [21:37] <Hixie> uh.
  540. # [21:38] <Hixie> the script.
  541. # [21:38] <Hixie> i think you checked in a fix.
  542. # [21:38] <zcorpan> oh, yep, i replied off-list
  543. # [21:38] <Hixie> cool
  544. # [21:38] <Hixie> thanks!
  545. # [21:39] <zcorpan> np
  546. # [21:39] <zcorpan> :)
  547. # [21:42] <Hixie> ;trianh
  548. # [21:42] <Hixie> uh
  549. # [21:42] <Hixie> wrong window.
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  565. # [22:37] <hsivonen> annevk: looks like you have better ad juice than me. I got an offer of $35 for an ad on my doctype page.
  566. # [22:39] <jgraham_> Argh. What is it with people complaining about HTML 5 allowing non-text content in paragraphs? The forms section of the HTML 4 _spec_ is covered in examples of exactly that
  567. # [22:41] <hsivonen> jgraham_: are you referring to autisticcuckoo?
  568. # [22:41] <jgraham_> Yeah. But it's at least the second time its been mentioned this week#
  569. # [22:43] * zcorpan is discussing that with toolman over email
  570. # [22:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Tim 'toolman' Taylor?
  571. # [22:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no, Tommy "TOOLman" Olsson
  572. # [22:44] <zcorpan> i.e. autisticcuckoo
  573. # [22:44] <hsivonen> oh
  574. # [22:48] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  575. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> I stopped reading at "In Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, the ruler of Ankh-Morpork uses an unusual method for reducing crime in the city..."
  576. # [22:52] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  577. # [22:54] <annevk> lol
  578. # [22:54] <annevk> that guy should make a parser
  579. # [22:54] <annevk> the illusion that draconian somehow makes your faster is in fact just that
  580. # [22:54] <annevk> an illusion
  581. # [22:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  583. # [22:55] <annevk> with the notable exception of course of the adoption agency algorithm which is part of HTML5 but you can optimize around that
  584. # [22:55] <annevk> and that shouldn't slow the whole process too much
  585. # [22:56] <zcorpan> annevk: and doesn't affect perf for conforming documents unless you have a streaming parser and can't modify the tree afterwards (in which case you have to buffer)
  586. # [22:57] <annevk> it does affect it slightly i think
  587. # [22:57] <annevk> but you might be right, yes
  588. # [22:57] <zcorpan> i thought it was only triggered when you see an end tag at the wrong place
  589. # [22:57] <annevk> I believe Safari has some tricks to make it go much better for documents without problems
  590. # [22:58] <annevk> zcorpan, not really
  591. # [22:58] <annevk> it's triggered when you hit a certain end tag
  592. # [22:59] <annevk> although if the tree is okayish you might not have to do complicated things but you still have some additional checks and such i believe
  593. # [22:59] <zcorpan> oh. ok.
  594. # [23:00] <annevk> see 'A start tag whose tag name is one of: "b", "big", "em", "font", "i", "nobr", "s", "small", "strike", "strong", "tt", "u"' and 'An end tag whose tag name is one of: "a", "b", "big", "em", "font", "i", "nobr", "s", "small", "strike", "strong", "tt", "u"'
  595. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: you want anybody to help to put together the references? it's one part of the spec I sorely miss
  596. # [23:06] <Hixie> annevk: if it's a well-formed doc, you bail at step 3, it's no more expensive that checking you're valid in the first place as i understand it
  597. # [23:06] * Joins: SpookyET_ (i=user@75.138.70.34)
  598. # [23:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: i mostly have the references done (in wf2), the problem is keeping them up to date
  599. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: and wa1?
  600. # [23:07] <Hixie> the references are mostly the same
  601. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: mind if I have ago at putting the references together?
  602. # [23:07] <annevk> if people really want it now I suppose you could make it a separate file
  603. # [23:08] <annevk> that p/html5/ people can update and that Hixie extracts now and then?
  604. # [23:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: if you're willing to put aside one day every month for the next 10 years or so to keep them up to date, sure
  605. # [23:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: but i recommend against it
  606. # [23:08] <Hixie> as annevk suggests, we could have it in the google code svn
  607. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: are there really that many that change that often? Looking through them, it doesn't look as if there are that many that are under proper work.
  608. # [23:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: yes, at least one reference changes every month
  609. # [23:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: e.g. Unicode has new releases every 4 or so months
  610. # [23:11] <Hixie> WebAPI has a new release every 4 or so months
  611. # [23:12] <Hixie> new RFCs come out all the time, relevant ones change every few months
  612. # [23:12] <Hixie> etc
  613. # [23:12] <Hixie> that's the only reason i haven't put the references in yet
  614. # [23:12] <gsnedders> most of the RFCs seem to be ones that don't change so often
  615. # [23:13] <annevk> from a references pov, more often than you want :)
  616. # [23:13] <gsnedders> but you've been dealing with the WF2 references, so I'll take your work
  617. # [23:13] <gsnedders> *word
  618. # [23:13] <gsnedders> annevk: well, ideally, from that POV, they'd never change :P
  619. # [23:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@banff-72-29-239-177.mycanopy.net) ("Get thee behind me, satan.")
  620. # [23:15] <annevk> Toolman seems to make the wrong conclusions. He's saying that changing the semantics of elements to match common usage makes it harder to extract semantics. However, it only makes it harder to extract semantics on the minority of pages conforming to the previous definitions.
  621. # [23:15] <SpookyET_> Firefoxing is pissing me off.
  622. # [23:15] <SpookyET_> Firefox*
  623. # [23:15] <annevk> http://www.opera.com/
  624. # [23:15] <SpookyET_> Every time you load a Window, extensions are getting loaded and executed. You add a few of them, and it takes seconds to open a new window.
  625. # [23:15] <SpookyET_> It slows down opening and closing of tabs too.
  626. # [23:16] <gsnedders> annevk: you hear what I said in #html-wg?
  627. # [23:16] <SpookyET_> Extensions should be loaded once and cloned.
  628. # [23:16] <gsnedders> annevk: about the OS X disk image not mounting?
  629. # [23:16] <hsivonen> SpookyET_: accessing the content DOM from extensions is too slow. :-( blame the security wrapping
  630. # [23:16] <annevk> gsnedders, neh
  631. # [23:17] <SpookyET_> hsivonen: I'm talking about loading blank windows.
  632. # [23:17] <hsivonen> SpookyET_: oh.
  633. # [23:18] <SpookyET_> hsivonen: But, perhaps you are right. It's all xul, not native. Still, I can see it executing (removal of Bookmarks menu entry by the del.cio.us extension).
  634. # [23:19] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  635. # [23:21] <bewest> SpookyET_: then don't use extensions :-)
  636. # [23:21] <bewest> hopefully tamarin will make things spiffier
  637. # [23:23] <Philip`> Will Tamarin help with JS->C++ function calls?
  638. # [23:23] <bewest> dunno
  639. # [23:24] <annevk> gsnedders, I wouldn't know anything about it either
  640. # [23:24] <Philip`> (I've used SpiderMonkey in a game engine and I can't quite remember any details but I think the transitions between script and engine are the slowest part - the actual script execution is easily fast enough)
  641. # [23:25] <SpookyET_> SpookyET_: I need them. Can't live without AdBlock, GreaseMonkey, Stylish, and StumbleUpon.
  642. # [23:26] <SpookyET_> The workaround is to use more than one profile. I have another profile for web development, with web dev extensions like FireBug, WebDev ToolBar, XPather, etc.
  643. # [23:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm not an expert, but I would expect JS-C++ crossings not to be helped by Tamarin. moreover, the performance hit when chrome JS accesses the content DOM is even greater than the usual JS-C++ crossing
  644. # [23:27] <bewest> hsivonen: interesting
  645. # [23:29] <SpookyET_> annevk: I'm a fan of Opera's, but I need extensions. Opera with extensions will rock. Unfortunetly, Opera will have to clone XAML for that.
  646. # [23:30] <annevk> That seems like the only viable option, indeed...
  647. # [23:30] <hsivonen> bewest: I could be wrong about Tamarin and crossing to C++. on a second though, a JIT *could* help it
  648. # [23:30] * annevk heads home
  649. # [23:30] <hsivonen> *thought
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  655. # [23:42] <SpookyET_> hsivonen: Sorry, I did not mean to open a can of worms.
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  660. # Session Close: Fri May 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)