/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 16 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [01:18] <bewest> what character do you stop at to determine the end of a broken entity?
  13. # [01:18] <bewest> or what kinds of characters?
  14. # [01:19] <zcorpan> what's a broken entity?
  15. # [01:21] <Lachlan> bewest, the algorithm consumes as many characters as possible until it either matches one of the entity references, or can't do so, in which case it just outputs the consumed characters
  16. # [01:21] <Dashiva> Mhm...
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  38. # [03:18] * Philip` wonders if anything implements the "flavor" colour, or has plans to do so
  39. # [03:22] <mpt> Philip`, MacIE5 is the only browser that ever did afaik
  40. # [03:23] <mpt> And it's a value that only ever made sense for Rev 1 iMacs
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  42. # [03:24] <mpt> and that it ever found its way into the CSS spec is a mystery of our times
  43. # [03:24] * mpt winks at tantek
  44. # [03:25] <Philip`> Ah, that makes sense
  45. # [03:25] <Philip`> (Well, not much sense, but at least slightly more than none :-) )
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  47. # [03:31] * mpt wonders if it's been removed from CSS2.1 on the grounds of not having multiple interoperable impelementations, and if not, why not
  48. # [03:35] <Philip`> flavor doesn't seem to be in any of CSS 1, 2 or 2.1, though it is in 3
  49. # [03:37] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  50. # [03:40] <mpt> CSS colors are a disaster zone
  51. # [03:40] <mpt> Most of the UI colors make sense only in Windows 95, 98, and 2000
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  54. # [03:43] <bewest> ?
  55. # [03:43] <bewest> red
  56. # [03:43] <bewest> blue
  57. # [03:43] <bewest> silver
  58. # [03:44] <Philip`> inactivecaptiontext
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  60. # [03:45] * theoros|away is now known as theoros
  61. # [03:45] <Hixie> mpt: yeah, 'appearance' is supposed to fix that. the system colours are deprecated.
  62. # [03:46] <Philip`> It seems odd how graytext is defined to handle the case of monochrome displays, though nothing else is and you'd presumably end up with quite a broken interface on such a display
  63. # [03:48] <Hixie> i thought graytext was for disabled controls, not monochrome displays
  64. # [03:49] <Philip`> It says "Grayed (disabled) text. This color is set to #000 if the current display driver does not support a solid gray color."
  65. # [03:49] <Philip`> (I suppose you could get multichrome displays that don't support grey, but that seems unlikely)
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  76. # [04:56] <mpt> Philip`, the Apple II or the Mac Classic :-)
  77. # [04:56] <mpt> It would be rather difficult to get a graphical Web browser working on them, though
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  81. # [05:31] <mpt> agggh
  82. # [05:32] <mpt> Hixie, I wish to make a complaint
  83. # [05:32] <mpt> I've had two users now saying "Opera passes Acid2, therefore the CSS problem I have with your site can't be an Opera bug"
  84. # [05:36] <mpt> or at least implying it
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  89. # [05:58] <jruderman> blockquote { flavor: cherry; }
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  96. # [07:28] <Hixie> mpt: sorry, i don't take responsibility for the world's morons
  97. # [07:33] <mpt> "Acid2 is a test page, written to help browser vendors ensure proper support for web standards in their products" could be "Acid2 is a test page, written to highlight *some* high-profile bugs and sought-after features in Web browsers"
  98. # [07:33] <mpt> or something
  99. # [07:33] <mpt> anyway, hometime for me
  100. # [07:33] <Hixie> i didn't write that
  101. # [07:33] <Hixie> so...
  102. # [07:34] <mpt> ah, you wrote the thing next to it
  103. # [07:34] <mpt> ok, I'll e-mail them
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  112. # [08:12] <met_> http://solutoire.com/plotr/ (charts with canvas) see also discussion under http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/05/04/1457210
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  124. # [09:49] <mikeday> is it possible to implement support for HTML forms using something like XBL?
  125. # [09:52] <othermaciej> depends on whether you have the other needed primitive capabilities
  126. # [09:59] <mikeday> eg. JavaScript support?
  127. # [10:00] <mikeday> as I understand it, XBL can add bits to the DOM transparently,
  128. # [10:00] <mikeday> but that won't magically make the added bits interactive
  129. # [10:01] <mikeday> although it could presumably reproduce the appearance of HTML forms, by setting style
  130. # [10:03] <mikeday> and handle things like <select size="4">, which can't really be done with pure CSS
  131. # [10:04] <othermaciej> you would need to have an XBL binding not just on the controls but also on <form> and you would need enough networking APIs
  132. # [10:04] <othermaciej> <input type="file"> can't be done with XBL
  133. # [10:13] <mikeday> true
  134. # [10:13] <mikeday> haven't really thought that far ahead, I'm just curious if it's possible to make interactive buttons and things
  135. # [10:14] <othermaciej> yes, XBL can bind event listeners
  136. # [10:14] <mikeday> ah of course
  137. # [10:14] <mikeday> so it could turn <button>Hello</button>
  138. # [10:15] <mikeday> into a more complicated tree, eg. to add borders or other decorations
  139. # [10:15] <mikeday> and add event listeners to make it clickable, and change the style when clicked
  140. # [10:15] <mikeday> (and possibly fire off other events or whatever)
  141. # [10:18] <mikeday> presumably it would also need to update the DOM properties that HTML form elements are supposed to have
  142. # [10:18] <mikeday> so that other scripts on the page could query the state of the form controls and get the expected results
  143. # [10:18] <mikeday> eg. is this checkbox selected or not
  144. # [10:19] <mikeday> the final submit would be a bit tricky, as you said
  145. # [10:19] <mikeday> and file input wouldn't be possible without some kind of extension
  146. # [10:20] <mikeday> still, it sounds halfway plausible :)
  147. # [10:32] <nickshanks> hello mike
  148. # [10:32] <nickshanks> how is your evening?
  149. # [10:34] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9535.l.pppool.de)
  150. # [10:35] <mikeday> hi nickshanks
  151. # [10:35] <mikeday> good thanks, and you? :)
  152. # [10:36] <nickshanks> i am waiting for a 500 GB perpendicular serial ata hard drive to arrive
  153. # [10:36] <nickshanks> since i have 37.2 MB left on my boot drive
  154. # [10:36] <mikeday> hmm, what exactly is perpendicular about it?
  155. # [10:36] <nickshanks> the magnetic 'bits' that the read-write head toggles
  156. # [10:37] <nickshanks> http://www.google.com/search?q=perpendicular+recording
  157. # [10:37] <mikeday> I can't say I've ever much worried about the orientation of my magnetic bits :)
  158. # [10:37] <nickshanks> mikeday: what cool neat-o-matic features are you working on today?
  159. # [10:38] <mikeday> none, just the Prince 6.0 release
  160. # [10:38] <mikeday> it includes basic styling for HTML forms, which is a feature
  161. # [10:38] <mikeday> non-interactive though
  162. # [10:39] <mikeday> and not all aspects of form styling are reproduced yet, as that's hard to do with CSS only
  163. # [10:39] <nickshanks> does PDF support styled forms in that way
  164. # [10:40] <mikeday> well, we're not generating PDF forms at all yet, only things that look like form controls
  165. # [10:40] <mikeday> but I think it does, as you can just draw arbitrary stuff on the page and then make it interactive
  166. # [10:40] <nickshanks> sounds like a feature for 6.1 or 6.2 :)
  167. # [10:43] <mikeday> yeah, or 7.0 :P
  168. # [10:44] <mikeday> actually I think it would be great to be able to use Prince to make PDF forms
  169. # [10:44] <mikeday> it's something we've planning to do for ages, but there's been a lot of other stuff to do as well.
  170. # [10:44] <nickshanks> yes, it would take if from a book publishing tool to a corporate marketing tool
  171. # [10:45] <nickshanks> open up new markets, etc
  172. # [10:45] <mikeday> right
  173. # [10:45] <mikeday> I think that SVG is also a good platform for forms,
  174. # [10:45] <nickshanks> what do most of your customers use the app for?
  175. # [10:45] <mikeday> which are often designed in a page-centric manner, following a grid etc.
  176. # [10:46] <mikeday> some use it for producing printed receipts, some for dynamically generated reports, some for technical documentation,
  177. # [10:46] <mikeday> some for books or academic papers
  178. # [10:46] <mikeday> there's a fair bit of variety.
  179. # [10:46] <nickshanks> hmm, not seen it used for technical papers
  180. # [10:47] <nickshanks> all the ones i read are written in latex
  181. # [10:47] <mikeday> right, we hope to change that :)
  182. # [10:47] <nickshanks> hmm. i'm not sure changing that would help anything other than your bank account
  183. # [10:48] <mikeday> hah
  184. # [10:48] <nickshanks> LaTeX seems like a good solution to me
  185. # [10:48] <mikeday> believe it or not, there are other user agents capable of rendering HTML + CSS
  186. # [10:48] <mikeday> we call them "browsers"
  187. # [10:48] <nickshanks> ooooo!
  188. # [10:48] <mikeday> if web standards aren't a good solution for technical papers, fix web standards
  189. # [10:49] <nickshanks> that's why we're in this channel
  190. # [10:49] <mikeday> indeed.
  191. # [10:49] <nickshanks> is there an extant SVG to PDF conversion tool?
  192. # [10:49] <nickshanks> that retains vectors, rather than rasterising
  193. # [10:50] <KevinMarks> safari + print?
  194. # [10:50] <nickshanks> (no, Adobe Illustrator doesn't count)
  195. # [10:50] <mikeday> Batik
  196. # [10:50] <mikeday> I think you have to rasterise sometimes though, eg. for filters, which we don't support yet
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  198. # [10:53] <mikeday> I think that (X)HTML + SVG + MathML is a decent enough combination for technical papers, anyway.
  199. # [10:54] <nickshanks> mikeday: can you consider adding Prince to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28SVG%29
  200. # [10:54] <mikeday> sorry, that would be conflict of interest under Wikipedia policy
  201. # [10:54] <mikeday> how about you do it? :)
  202. # [10:55] <nickshanks> i don't know any of the facts
  203. # [10:55] <nickshanks> i already added prince to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28CSS%29
  204. # [10:55] <mikeday> http://www.princexml.com/doc/svg/
  205. # [10:55] <mikeday> gives SVG support for Prince 5.1
  206. # [10:56] <mikeday> we've added a bit more in 6.0
  207. # [10:57] <nickshanks> wikipedia policy doesn't prohibit adding content that might represent a conflict of interest, just that you provide a reference. leeway is much greater for filling in omitted data in a "hey, you forgot me!" manner
  208. # [10:58] <othermaciej> nickshanks: Safari can print to PDF, though I', not sure how well it works for PDF
  209. # [11:00] <nickshanks> othermaciej: i am thinking of SVG in <img src="foo.svg" style="width:100%"> elements, where the svg is converted to PDF and then passed to NSImage, and stays sharp as you resize the window
  210. # [11:00] <mikeday> yeah, it's mainly that updating Wikipedia would take time that I don't have right now
  211. # [11:00] <mikeday> (he says, while chatting on irc)
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  213. # [11:01] <othermaciej> nickshanks: I don't understand what you are thinking of, then, since neither WebKit nor any other browser engine handle PDF that way
  214. # [11:01] <othermaciej> er, SVG
  215. # [11:01] <nickshanks> mikeday: it may also bring in customers. wikipedia is an effective advertising tool
  216. # [11:02] <mikeday> actually, there are several ? on the CSS comparison page that I can fix
  217. # [11:02] <nickshanks> mikeday: just 5 mins a day tending to the article would help make it more complete, and you're the best-placed person to do that
  218. # [11:03] <othermaciej> on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines and related, someone should really rename WebCore to WebKit
  219. # [11:03] <othermaciej> that's the name of the engine that people actually use
  220. # [11:03] <mikeday> I can't help wondering if all this stuff really belongs on Wikipedia though
  221. # [11:04] <nickshanks> mikeday: probably not, but it's wiki nature keeps it more up to date than other sites that try and do the same
  222. # [11:10] <mikeday> by the way nickshanks, we should be able to fix the BOM issue that was affecting Prince on HTML documents
  223. # [11:10] <mikeday> as we are planning to write a new HTML parser, following the HTML5 spec
  224. # [11:12] <nickshanks> did i complain about that? can't remember the issue
  225. # [11:12] <mikeday> libxml2 HTML parser chokes on a UTF-8 BOM unfortunately
  226. # [11:12] <othermaciej> information about layout engines seems as valid to me as info about various animal species or physical lawys
  227. # [11:12] <othermaciej> *laws
  228. # [11:13] <mikeday> othermaciej, yes
  229. # [11:13] <mikeday> but as always, the web gives highest priority to information about itself
  230. # [11:13] <mikeday> that, and exhaustive listings of all the Pokemon, Simpsons episodes...
  231. # [11:14] <nickshanks> mike: it represents what people want to read about
  232. # [11:14] <mikeday> people being "geeks on the web" :)
  233. # [11:14] <othermaciej> anyway, I'm just kinda suggesting someone could fix this since per wikipedia my expert knowledge of the webkit project disqualifies me from writing about it
  234. # [11:14] <mikeday> it represents what people want to *write* about
  235. # [11:14] <nickshanks> not necessarily what a learned individual should read
  236. # [11:15] <nickshanks> yeah, sorry, being a wiki i tend to think of reading and writing as the same thing
  237. # [11:15] <mikeday> no one with expert knowledge should be contributing to an encyclopaedia, right :)
  238. # [11:16] <nickshanks> sure they can, as long as they avoid their area of expertise ;)
  239. # [11:17] <mikeday> we only want opinions untainted by any detailed knowledge of the subject in question :)
  240. # [11:18] <nickshanks> we should get jukka, tina and lachy to write the wikipedia article on HTML5 then ;)
  241. # [11:19] <othermaciej> lachy would be tainted by quite a bit of knowledge about HTML5
  242. # [11:19] * mikeday reads the article on HTML5
  243. # [11:19] <mikeday> short, and to the point
  244. # [11:19] <mikeday> I like the fact that it's in the "Future products" category
  245. # [11:19] <mikeday> looks like hsivonen put that in :)
  246. # [11:25] <mikeday> hmm, it would be nice sometimes if Linux had binary compatibility across versions
  247. # [11:26] <mikeday> (...and a pony).
  248. # [11:27] * nickshanks read that as "it would be nice if Linux sometimes had binary compatibility across versions"
  249. # [11:27] <nickshanks> like, on thursdays and saturdays...
  250. # [11:32] <mikeday> heh
  251. # [11:32] <mikeday> that's pretty much what it feels like now
  252. # [11:32] <mikeday> things may or may not run, depending on glibc and the phase of the moon
  253. # [11:32] <mikeday> one may well ask why we bother with dynamic linking at all
  254. # [11:33] <mikeday> we hardly need to worry about saving disk space
  255. # [11:33] <nickshanks> see now, if you moved to the sun, the moon would always be in the same phase
  256. # [11:33] <nickshanks> and you'd get reliability
  257. # [11:33] <mikeday> and the simplification of dropping dynamic loading and relocation would more than make up for it
  258. # [11:34] <nickshanks> the best would be to ship the lib you built against, and then give the user the choice to use his own if it's a newer version
  259. # [11:35] <nickshanks> that way the user can always fall back on the version you built against if anything goes wrong with the new lib
  260. # [11:35] <mikeday> yeah, but if you moved to Sun, you'd have to run Solaris, not Linux
  261. # [11:35] <nickshanks> that's fine with me
  262. # [11:36] <nickshanks> my astronomy dept. has lots of Suns
  263. # [11:36] <mikeday> astronomers are known for their fascination with suns
  264. # [11:37] <mikeday> ...and a weak joke collapses under the strain.
  265. # [11:37] <nickshanks> i wasn't joking
  266. # [11:37] <mikeday> 'scuse me
  267. # [11:37] * mikeday is now known as mikeday|away
  268. # [11:37] <nickshanks> i did astrophysics at uni and we all worked on Solaris machines
  269. # [11:38] <nickshanks> writing f77 and stuff
  270. # [11:39] <BenWard> Not sure how new or old this is — not been in the channel very long this morning — but I trust someone has seen that the WHATWG blog has been hacked and spammed?
  271. # [11:39] <othermaciej> lovely
  272. # [11:41] <Dashiva> Let the blame passing begin!
  273. # [11:43] <nickshanks> clearly it's TimBL's fault for inventing HTML and so causing the WHATWG blog to exist
  274. # [12:04] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-28.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
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  276. # [12:04] <BenWard> No no no, it's Microsoft's fault for not producing a robust enough proprietary internet publishing solution, requiring us to develop these open standards in the first place.
  277. # [12:05] <Lachy> yay! Our first spam articles :-) http://blog.whatwg.org/
  278. # [12:06] <BenWard> …  or, it's because you're running Wordpress 2.0.5 and not 2.0.10.
  279. # [12:07] <Lachy> yeah, I need to update WP one day
  280. # [12:07] <nickshanks> WP 2.2 is the latest
  281. # [12:07] <othermaciej> this is a strangely ironic URL: http://whatwg.majda.cz/wallpapers/5-gt-2-black-simple.svg
  282. # [12:08] <BenWard> 2.2 is the latest, but the 2.0 branch is still being patched for security (hence 2.0.10) and shouldn't break any plug-ins that might be running.
  283. # [12:09] <nickshanks> anyway, have to install hard disk and some OSes, bbl
  284. # [12:09] * Quits: nickshanks (n=nicholas@home.nickshanks.com)
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  286. # [12:15] <Lachy> I just reduced the rights of new users to contributor instead of author. That will allow them to register and write posts, but can't publish themselves. Once they prove to not be a spammer, I can upgrade them
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  293. # [12:47] <ROBOd> good day. spammers found the whatwg blog?
  294. # [12:47] <ROBOd> i've got two spam articles from the blog, via atom feed
  295. # [12:51] <Lachy> ROBOd, yeah, I've already deleted them
  296. # [12:51] <ROBOd> i saw that
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  301. # [13:19] <zcorpan> i think i'm starting to understand role a bit better now
  302. # [13:20] <zcorpan> it's "needed" because <input type=checkbox> isn't stylable in current browsers. so when you need a fancy checkbox, you use <img onclick>. but then screen readers don't know it's a checkbox.
  303. # [13:21] <zcorpan> i think it's the wrong way to go about it. the right way is to make <input type=checkbox> stylable.
  304. # [13:21] <zcorpan> or am i missing something?
  305. # [13:22] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
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  307. # [13:25] <peepo> hi folks it's a rare event..
  308. # [13:26] <peepo> oops
  309. # [13:27] <zcorpan> [type=checkbox] { content:url(unchecked.png); } [type=checkbox]:checked { content:url(checked.png); }
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  317. # [13:52] <mikeday> zcorpan, role is for stylable form controls? I thought it was more than that.
  318. # [13:53] <Dashiva> role is magical
  319. # [13:53] <Dashiva> Somehow everyone will know and agree on which roles mean what, and never use them incorrectly or make up their own roles
  320. # [13:55] <mikeday> what code will access the role attribute?
  321. # [13:55] <mikeday> I mean, CSS could, with [role=foo], but I'm assuming that's undesirable.
  322. # [13:56] <mikeday> screen readers?
  323. # [13:57] <mikeday> search engines?
  324. # [13:59] <mikeday> automatic text summarisers?
  325. # [13:59] <mikeday> throw me a bone here, people :/
  326. # [13:59] <Dashiva> The people talking most about it are the accessability people, so screen readers
  327. # [14:00] <mikeday> hmm.
  328. # [14:00] <mikeday> <i role="shipname">Titanic</i> for example?
  329. # [14:01] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-58.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  330. # [14:01] <Dashiva> Sure
  331. # [14:01] <mikeday> how is role supposed to connect to RDF, anyway?
  332. # [14:01] <mikeday> I mean how does it differ from class?
  333. # [14:01] <Dashiva> See my initial statement
  334. # [14:03] <mikeday> hmm, from what I see on the mailing list, people want to say role="foo:shipname"
  335. # [14:03] <mikeday> where foo is a currently bound namespace prefix
  336. # [14:03] <mikeday> -1 for qnames in content...
  337. # [14:04] <zcorpan_> i don't see the point in linking to RDF
  338. # [14:04] <mikeday> how exactly will user agents "learn" about new roles
  339. # [14:04] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-28.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  340. # [14:04] <zcorpan_> is it really intended that UAs will read the RDF and then magically know what to do with the role?
  341. # [14:04] <mikeday> exactly!
  342. # [14:04] <mikeday> that was the kind of insane magic thinking that came out when XML Namespaces where designed
  343. # [14:05] <mikeday> "a namespace is a URL, user agent dereferences URL, downloads schema for namespace (why?), magically knows what to do"
  344. # [14:05] <zcorpan_> was it?
  345. # [14:06] <mikeday> RDDL was a language designed for that very purpose
  346. # [14:06] <mikeday> to add namespace metadata to an XHTML page that sits on the namespace URL
  347. # [14:06] * zcorpan_ sighs
  348. # [14:06] <mikeday> so that hypothetical user agents could go and download it and learn new tricks
  349. # [14:07] <mikeday> I don't know how many smart people burnt processor cycles on that idea
  350. # [14:07] <mikeday> the fact that most user agents don't even bother downloading DTDs should have been a hint
  351. # [14:07] <mikeday> (Prince does, actually :)
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  353. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> does it learn new tricks from DTDs? :)
  354. # [14:07] <mikeday> sadly, no :)
  355. # [14:08] <mikeday> but wouldn't it be awesome if you could just define new elements in the DTD,
  356. # [14:08] <mikeday> and they got all kinds of custom rendering behaviour automatically,
  357. # [14:08] <mikeday> and we didn't have to do any work! That'd rock.
  358. # [14:08] <mikeday> ...and a pony.
  359. # [14:10] <mikeday> I mean, the only thing you can do in RDF that doesn't involve writing code,
  360. # [14:10] <mikeday> is tell the user agent that a foreign element is equivalent to some other known element
  361. # [14:10] <mikeday> like, if you see a <foo>, treat it just like you currently treat <blockquote>
  362. # [14:11] <mikeday> now that might be handy, from time to time, but it's hardly a world changing feature.
  363. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> i meant with my first remark that it appears that that was what spawned the role idea in the first place. then they thought "hey, this can be useful for other stuff too!" or something
  364. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> and made it even more complicated
  365. # [14:11] <mikeday> so it was originally proposed for styling form controls?
  366. # [14:11] <mikeday> seems like improved CSS selectors would solve that one
  367. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> dunno, just speculating. i don't understand the problem it's trying to solve really
  368. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> indeed
  369. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> or selectors are already powerful enough
  370. # [14:12] <mikeday> role was from XHTML 2 originally though, right?
  371. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> probably. does it make a difference?
  372. # [14:13] <mikeday> just trying to find out where it all began
  373. # [14:13] <mikeday> looks like it was an XHTML module:
  374. # [14:13] <mikeday> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-role-20060725/
  375. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> that came afterwards
  376. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> as an attempt to "ease migration to xhtml2" (or so the draft says)
  377. # [14:13] <mikeday> It is used by applications and assistive technologies to determine the purpose of UI widgets.
  378. # [14:13] <mikeday> ah, okay
  379. # [14:13] <mikeday> (UI widgets sentence should be in quotes)
  380. # [14:14] <zcorpan_> yeah
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  382. # [14:14] <zcorpan_> thing is there already is HTML markup for UI widgets!
  383. # [14:14] <zcorpan_> <button>, <a href>, <input type=checkbox>
  384. # [14:14] <mikeday> the example has it on a list: <ul role="navigation wai:sitemap">
  385. # [14:14] <zcorpan_> <nav>
  386. # [14:14] <mikeday> heh :)
  387. # [14:15] <zcorpan_> <nav><h2>Sitemap</h2><ul>...
  388. # [14:15] <mikeday> to be honest, some of these role values remind me of rel=""
  389. # [14:16] <mikeday> I can sort of see what they're trying to do with it, and it's not *too* insane
  390. # [14:16] <mikeday> but the idea of qnames in attributes, and linking it to RDF via namespace URLs is just stupid
  391. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> role seems to be like an accessibility patch for poor CSS support in browsers and badly written markup
  392. # [14:16] <mikeday> the whole point is to have a small selection of values that user agents understand
  393. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> which might be a good thing
  394. # [14:16] <mikeday> some of it could also be handy for mobile rendering,
  395. # [14:17] <mikeday> like when you want to chop the page up into bits to fit on a small screen
  396. # [14:17] <mikeday> you want to know where to chop, and role could help with that
  397. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> i mean, if there is old content with <img onclick>, it's easier to add role=checkbox than to change it to <input type=checkbox> and restyle it
  398. # [14:17] <mikeday> but again, define a small number of roles, make sure user agents understand them, ditch the namespace stuff
  399. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> yeah
  400. # [14:17] <mikeday> people might go nuts inventing new role values, but that's fine
  401. # [14:18] <mikeday> since it's not useful for styling, only accessibility nuts will go nuts, which is okay
  402. # [14:19] <mikeday> hmm, just like the rel attribute, actually
  403. # [14:19] <mikeday> rel="shortcut icon"
  404. # [14:19] <mikeday> and the hook for OpenID
  405. # [14:20] <mikeday> rel="openid.server", works fine with no namespace support
  406. # [14:20] <mikeday> it's just that every W3C specification has to pay homage to RDF at some point...
  407. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> indeed, i don't see why namespaces are better than naming conventions
  408. # [14:22] <zcorpan_> naming conventions seem to be more successful in terms of usage and implementation
  409. # [14:22] <zcorpan_> microformats are naming conventions
  410. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> some implementations of RSS rely on the convention of how the namespace prefixes are written!
  411. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> (i think)
  412. # [14:25] <mikeday> yes
  413. # [14:25] <mikeday> pseudo-XML formats, not really XML
  414. # [14:25] <mikeday> but namespaces should never have been defined using URLs to begin with
  415. # [14:25] <mikeday> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2005/04/13/namespace-uris.html
  416. # [14:30] <mikeday> must go
  417. # [14:31] * mikeday waves
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  420. # [14:31] <zcorpan> cya
  421. # [14:31] <zcorpan> have a predefined set of prefixes, and if you don't want to use a prefix, then you have to declare the namespace
  422. # [14:31] <zcorpan> <html:html/> == <html xmlns="html"/>
  423. # [14:31] <zcorpan> that could have worked
  424. # [14:32] <zcorpan> unknown prefixes are just that, handled the same way as unknown namespaces are today
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  435. # [16:10] <met_> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/poll_update_mozilla_google_favored.php
  436. # [16:26] <zcorpan_> "Mozilla (open source, microformats, browser-based)" translates pretty much to "HTML5" :)
  437. # [16:29] <met_> mozilla is still better buzzworld than html5 8-)
  438. # [16:29] <met_> *buzzword
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  441. # [16:31] <Philip`> met_: I noticed you sent quite a few people to my site :-)
  442. # [16:34] <met_> Philip` i wrote about canvas in my blog 8-) and you doom-like game is perfect example
  443. # [16:35] <met_> today I have found http://solutoire.com/plotr/ - js library for generating charts in canvas
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  451. # [18:26] <zcorpan_> somehow i think svg is more suitable for static charts
  452. # [18:27] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-c88ac95a05d62dfd) ("Fades out again…")
  453. # [18:27] <zcorpan_> although plotr is probably easy to use for dynamic charts too
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  456. # [18:40] <Philip`> Plotr seems to be heavily based on PlotKit, which does have SVG as an option
  457. # [18:41] <Philip`> but it's perhaps a problem that IE doesn't do SVG, whereas you can sort of make it do <canvas>
  458. # [18:41] <Philip`> although it's also a difficulty that <canvas> can't do text, whereas SVG can
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  462. # [18:52] <zcorpan_> you can make IE do SVG the same way you can make it do canvas
  463. # [18:52] <zcorpan_> (with VML)
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  465. # [18:58] <Philip`> Has anybody actually done that?
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  467. # [19:02] <zcorpan_> yeah
  468. # [19:02] <zcorpan_> http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2006/03/svg-in-ie/
  469. # [19:10] <Philip`> Ah, looks neat
  470. # [19:10] <Philip`> (Seems it won't work for SVG generated at run-time, though)
  471. # [19:19] <ianloic> in theory you could though, right?
  472. # [19:19] <ianloic> does IE support the dom mutation events?
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  490. # [21:52] <met_> http://www.davidflanagan.com/blog/2007_05.html#000128
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  493. # [22:07] * zcorpan_ expects at least 15 new subscribers who will request dashed lines
  494. # [22:11] <jruderman> met_: i'm not surprised. i think i told hixie to expect things like that when he started rejecting things with "not enough requests" as the reason.
  495. # [22:12] <jruderman> zcorpan_: given that it's flanagan's blog... only 15? :P
  496. # [22:12] <gsnedders> dashed lines plz. kthxbai.
  497. # [22:13] <Philip`> I think that was "not enough demand" rather than "not enough requests" - people who are actually writing canvas content and finding that they'd benefit from native support for dashed lines are a more significant indicator of demand than people who just pop in to say it'd be nice :-)
  498. # [22:14] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.208)
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  500. # [22:17] <Hixie> yeah
  501. # [22:17] <Hixie> case in point, the MNG fiasco
  502. # [22:17] <Hixie> where there were more people voting for MNG support in Firefox than there were MNGs created and put on the Web
  503. # [22:17] <Hixie> it's not a matter of votes
  504. # [22:18] <Hixie> it's a matter of organic demand
  505. # [22:18] <Hixie> if everyone comes in and says "hey this guy asked me if i could ask for dashed lines", those all count as one request
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  510. # [22:19] <Lachy> are there people using canvas who are creating their own dashed lines?
  511. # [22:19] <Hixie> nice work handling the blog spam btw
  512. # [22:19] <Hixie> Lachy: i've seen one, so far
  513. # [22:19] <Lachy> was it difficult to do?
  514. # [22:19] <Hixie> Lachy: they handled it quite easily (with a pattern)
  515. # [22:19] <Hixie> but they were just doing straight lines
  516. # [22:19] <Lachy> ok
  517. # [22:21] <Philip`> There's http://canvaspaint.org/ with the selection tool
  518. # [22:21] <Philip`> which is presumably that one
  519. # [22:23] <Hixie> yeah
  520. # [22:23] <Hixie> and you did a demo page with dashed lines, which was pretty neat
  521. # [22:23] <Hixie> even a dashed circle!
  522. # [22:24] * Joins: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-04d932c0df28fa38)
  523. # [22:24] <Lachy> canvaspaint is awesome
  524. # [22:25] <Philip`> My one seems to break a bit on corners, though
  525. # [22:26] <Philip`> and implementing decent Bezier curves in JS would be less trivial than one might prefer, compared to just setting a dash option
  526. # [22:27] <Hixie> would anyone doing a graph really use bezier curves?
  527. # [22:28] <Hixie> dashed lines are so Web 1.0. I didn't say it in the thread, but come on, who uses dashed lines these days. They're so old-school.
  528. # [22:28] <Hixie> it's all about bold lines and contrasting colours now.
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  530. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> semi-transparent bold lines with contrasting colors :)
  531. # [22:31] <Hixie> exactly!
  532. # [22:31] <Philip`> http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.21/21.08/Mineralogy101/fig10.jpg - but you can do such useful things with dashes
  533. # [22:31] * Philip` can't think of any sensible cases for drawing dashed non-straight lines
  534. # [22:32] <Hixie> that was sort of why i wasn't convinced
  535. # [22:32] <Hixie> but anyway
  536. # [22:32] <Hixie> gotta go
  537. # [22:32] <Hixie> bbiab
  538. # [22:33] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.208) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  539. # [22:33] <Dashiva> A dashed bezier curve!
  540. # [22:33] <met_> what about charts? there are often non-solid lines
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  544. # [22:40] <Philip`> met_: Those normally just use straight lines, and you can simulate dashes easily by drawing lots of shorter lines
  545. # [22:41] <zcorpan_> googling for "dynamic chart" doesn't give any curved dashed lines on the first 3 pages of results afaict
  546. # [22:42] <zcorpan_> some with straight dashed lines, though
  547. # [22:42] <met_> Philip` a lot of work 8-)
  548. # [22:43] * met_ foun dotted when googling xy chart
  549. # [22:47] <mpt> there's those conspiracy charts
  550. # [22:47] <mpt> which I now won't be able to find
  551. # [22:47] <mpt> but they have curved dashed lines between all the people
  552. # [22:50] <mpt> http://www.pierogi2000.com/flatfile/lombardi.html
  553. # [22:50] <mpt> ok, they have curved dashed lines between some of the people
  554. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> would you generate such a chart with canvas? well, perhaps, linking XFN people together real-time or something :)
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  563. # [23:43] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
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  565. # [23:52] <tantek> zcorpan, indeed - see what http://xhtmlfriends.net/ does
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  567. # [23:59] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  568. # Session Close: Thu May 17 00:00:00 2007

The end :)