/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 17 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [01:39] <zcorpan_> Hixie: re http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=51 , i don't see "custom bbcodes" in the admin ui...
  13. # [01:39] <zcorpan_> perhaps my permissions are restricted?
  14. # [01:40] <Hixie> you're the highest level i can set
  15. # [01:40] <Hixie> where would the custom bbcodes be?
  16. # [01:41] <zcorpan_> dunno
  17. # [01:41] <Hixie> i don't see anything called custom bbcodes
  18. # [01:41] <Hixie> maybe it's in a new version
  19. # [01:42] <Hixie> we've got 2.0.22
  20. # [01:42] <zcorpan_> could be
  21. # [01:42] <Hixie> that's the latest stable release, though, so who knows
  22. # [01:42] * Hixie doesn't really know about phpBB
  23. # [01:43] <Hixie> i just clicked the "install phpBB" button on the dreamhost panel :-)
  24. # [01:43] <zcorpan_> "DOWNLOAD LATEST RELEASE Version 2.0.22" says phpbb.com
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  30. # [02:11] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=51#280
  31. # [02:12] * zcorpan_ wonders if that will result in stray <code> tags if the input isn't balanced
  32. # [02:12] <Hixie> if i do that, we'll have to redo it every time we update
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  34. # [02:13] <zcorpan_> yeah, i don't think it's robust either
  35. # [02:13] <zcorpan_> probably better to upgrade to phpbb3 later on and see if it has a custom bbcodes section
  36. # [02:16] <Hixie> k
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  38. # [02:31] <Lachy> Hixie, http://returnable.org/ is another attempt at creating custom tooltips, this time using a custom element and strangely abusing URIs for a non-URI purpose
  39. # [02:32] <Lachy> we really need to find a sensible way to address the problem in HTML, CSS, etc.
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  41. # [02:34] <Hixie> o_O
  42. # [02:34] <Hixie> HTML5 says newlines in tooltips are real newlines
  43. # [02:37] <Lachy> ok. I didn't realise that. it's a shame only IE supports it though
  44. # [02:38] <zcorpan_> safari too iirc
  45. # [02:38] <othermaciej> I'd take a patch for that
  46. # [02:38] <othermaciej> if we don't do it already
  47. # [02:39] <Hixie> i don't get this tina person
  48. # [02:39] <Hixie> i'm actively trying to get her input and make the spec work for her
  49. # [02:40] <Hixie> but every e-mail she asserts that i'm going to ignore her and that i shouldn't worry as she won't join the wg and so on
  50. # [02:40] <othermaciej> can't you see that HTML5 is /not/ an appropriate specification because it /allows/ things that are /wrong/ and should be /forbidden/?
  51. # [02:41] <Hixie> yeah, it doesn't help that what she's advocating for doesn't even handle the e-mails she's writing
  52. # [02:41] <Lachy> but she's writing plain text emails
  53. # [02:43] <othermaciej> it's ok to use presentational markup in plaintext, because it conveys information
  54. # [02:43] <othermaciej> at least that's the explanation someone gave me
  55. # [02:43] <othermaciej> plaintext, like email, is for iformation
  56. # [02:43] <othermaciej> but HTML is for semantics, not information
  57. # [02:43] <Lachy> oh, do you mean the way she's /emphasising/ /everything/ /she/ /says/?
  58. # [02:45] <Hixie> it's not all emphasis
  59. # [02:45] <Hixie> as in, <em> would not be appropriate for all her /markup/
  60. # [02:45] <Hixie> but whatever
  61. # [02:45] * Hixie throws her e-mail onto the "phrasing" pile for now
  62. # [02:45] <bewest> Hixie: that's because she saw some teasing in the logs here and didn't like it
  63. # [02:45] <Hixie> uh huh
  64. # [02:45] <Lachy> I couldn't be bothered replying her any more. She's in the XHTML2 group, so she's got her own spec to mess up
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  66. # [02:46] <bewest> Hixie: you could talk to her in #web
  67. # [02:46] <Hixie> i think i'll watch my latest fix of atlantis instead
  68. # [02:46] <othermaciej> she uses both *stars* and /slashes/, which one normally takes to be bold and italic in plaintext
  69. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> she'll probably read today's log too, so, hi, tina! :)
  70. # [02:47] <Lachy> Hi Tina Holomboe (she won't see it unless we mention her full name)
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  72. # [02:47] <Lachy> now it will turn up in searches ;-)
  73. # [02:47] <zcorpan_> oh right
  74. # [02:47] <Philip`> Lachy: That would work better if you used the correct spelling
  75. # [02:48] <zcorpan_> Tina Holmboe
  76. # [02:48] <Lachy> oops
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  78. # [02:51] <bewest> I will probably now be banned from #web
  79. # [02:51] <bewest> oh well
  80. # [02:51] * Joins: pw_thirdfloor (n=pw_third@eth2.pepper.mbase.com.au)
  81. # [02:51] <zcorpan_> why?
  82. # [02:51] <Philip`> For an entertaining reason?
  83. # [02:51] * Lachy joins #web to see what's going on
  84. # [02:52] <Lachy> ... nothing yet.
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  86. # [02:53] * zcorpan_ is tempted to say "can anyone help me with a javascript problem?"
  87. # [02:56] <Dashiva> You just did
  88. # [02:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com)
  89. # [02:57] <zcorpan_> in #web, that is
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  94. # [03:05] <Dashiva> It's probably a spiderman channel anyhow
  95. # [03:08] <Lachy> zcorpan_, about that quote you just pasted in #web, where did that come from?
  96. # [03:09] <zcorpan_> topic
  97. # [03:11] <Lachy> woah! looks like David Dorward set that topic last. I can't believe he would have said that, I thought he had more sense than that
  98. # [03:11] * Philip` wonders what it says, but is too lazy to go and look
  99. # [03:12] <zcorpan_> "Rules: http://hashweb.sekrit.co.uk/ | Validate FIRST: http://validator.w3.org/ | Ask first, PM later | Don't use XHTML unless you understand it: http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml | #web is for authoring web pages, not a replacement for google or an index of irc channels | WA1 accepted as HTML 5 - R.I.P. HTML"
  100. # [03:13] <Philip`> Aha
  101. # [03:14] <Philip`> If people disagree with the direction of HTML, they could always form their own group and develop a Web Document Semantics 1.0 specification
  102. # [03:14] <Lachy> Philip`, they have. It's called XHTML 2.0
  103. # [03:14] <zcorpan_> or join the xhtml2 wg
  104. # [03:17] <Dashiva> I'm confused
  105. # [03:17] <Dashiva> Beware of XHTML, but RIP HTML?
  106. # [03:19] <zcorpan_> probably different people who wrote that
  107. # [03:20] <Lachy> Dashiva, that's because authors should use WML or cHTML instead
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  111. # [03:33] <Hixie> wow, that link is somewhat rough on the xhtml guys http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml
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  115. # [03:40] <zcorpan_> http://www.thewebcreator.net/2007/04/16/why-you-should-be-using-html-401-instead-of-xhtml/#comment-23 (same article)
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  118. # [04:00] <Hixie> the last comment on that blog entry highlights one of the weirdest things i've repeatedly seen on the web
  119. # [04:00] <Hixie> "HTML 5.0 vs XHTML 2.0 (commercials companies vs W3C)"
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  121. # [04:02] <Hixie> the idea that the W3C, which you have to pay thousands of dollars to to become a member, and which is entirely member-driven, is somehow less "commercial" than the WHATWG, which can be joined by anyone
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  123. # [04:05] <ianloic> hehe
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  135. # [04:31] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the spec says that <a>.href must reflect the href content attribute. but browsers return the resolved uri on getting
  136. # [04:32] <zcorpan_> oh, nevermind
  137. # [04:32] <Hixie> heh
  138. # [04:39] <zcorpan_> ok, for boolean attributes, it says that setting must remove or set the content attribute, but afaict none of safari, firefox or opera do that. (ie7 does because the content attribute === the dom attribute)
  139. # [04:42] <zcorpan_> although i only tested with <input checked>
  140. # [04:43] <Hixie> checked is a special case
  141. # [04:43] <Hixie> it doesn't reflect the content attribute
  142. # [04:43] <Hixie> defaultChecked is the DOM attribute that reflects the checked content attribute
  143. # [04:43] <zcorpan_> oh
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  145. # [04:47] <zcorpan_> for .disabled, opera returns "disabled", mozilla and safari return "", and ie7 returns "true"
  146. # [04:48] <Hixie> in what context?
  147. # [04:48] <zcorpan_> when setting to .disabled to true and then reading getAttribute("disabled")
  148. # [04:48] <Hixie> and what do they do when you set it to fals?
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  150. # [04:48] <Hixie> false?
  151. # [04:49] <Hixie> (afk brb)
  152. # [04:49] <zcorpan_> all return null
  153. # [04:51] <zcorpan_> which means that they remove the content attribute
  154. # [04:52] <zcorpan_> and that DOM3 Core is incompatible with the real world
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  156. # [04:58] <zcorpan_> or wait, ie7 returns "false", but the content attribute is absent in ie's web developer toolbar (and live dom viewer)
  157. # [05:00] <zcorpan_> uploaded to LDV
  158. # [05:00] <Hixie> so in conclusion, the spec is close enough to reality, right? :-)
  159. # [05:01] <zcorpan_> yeah. except perhaps that it should set the value to the empty string instead (to match two implementations instead of one) :)
  160. # [05:01] <Hixie> *shrug*
  161. # [05:02] <Hixie> we'll see what the implementors say when they start implementing this stuf
  162. # [05:02] <Hixie> so in other news
  163. # [05:02] <Hixie> how are we supposed to distinguish <h1>s that represent site-wide headers, from <h1>s that are the header of the page only?
  164. # [05:02] <Hixie> or do we need to?
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  166. # [05:05] <zcorpan_> if there's exactly one <article> (ignoring nested <article>s), then the heading of that <article> is the page's heading, and the <body>'s heading is the site-wide heading. otherwise, the <body>'s heading is the page's heading
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  169. # [05:10] <Hixie> oo, good call
  170. # [05:11] <zcorpan_> :)
  171. # [05:13] <zcorpan_> and yes, i think it needs to be distinguished, given how much this issue has been discussed at different forums
  172. # [05:13] <zcorpan_> if only for the sake of content producers
  173. # [05:28] <zcorpan_> should i mail that to the list?
  174. # [05:43] <Hixie> nah, i got it
  175. # [05:43] <zcorpan_> ok
  176. # [05:44] * zcorpan_ will go to bed now
  177. # [05:45] <zcorpan_> nn
  178. # [05:46] <Hixie> nn
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  192. # [06:12] * Hixie nukes the predefined class names
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  198. # [06:58] * Philip` wonders why commit-watchers hasn't seen r823
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  202. # [07:30] <Philip`> r284 is there, but 283 hasn't come through email or into the archives :-(
  203. # [07:33] <Hixie> weird
  204. # [07:34] <Hixie> maybe the script crashed when i submitted it
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  208. # [08:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: assuming you could iterate over classList
  209. # [08:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: would you want to see dupes, or would you want them collapsed?
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  211. # [08:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: hmm, haven't thought about it
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  213. # [08:22] <Hixie> sorted it is
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  215. # [08:35] <hendry> i'm going to try it...
  216. # [08:35] <hendry> woops, wrong channel
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  220. # [08:53] <jruderman> lol at Hixie's twitter status "Dashed lines are so Web 1.0. <canvas> is Web 2.0. Solid colours and transparency!"
  221. # [08:54] <Hixie> :-)
  222. # [09:01] <othermaciej> where are the rounded corners and reflections?
  223. # [09:02] <Hixie> reflections are here: http://cow.neondragon.net/stuff/reflection/
  224. # [09:03] <Philip`> http://www.netzgesta.de/corner/ - rounded corners
  225. # [09:03] <Philip`> What more could you want?
  226. # [09:03] <othermaciej> that reflection thing is pretty hot
  227. # [09:04] <Hixie> wow i hadn't seen the corners
  228. # [09:04] <Hixie> that's pretty awesome
  229. # [09:04] <Hixie> ok
  230. # [09:04] <Hixie> we're set!
  231. # [09:04] <Hixie> web 2.0 compliance! check!
  232. # [09:10] <othermaciej> does that use canvas?
  233. # [09:11] <othermaciej> I suppose adding NEW! and BETA badges can be an excercise to the reader
  234. # [09:11] <Hixie> yeah
  235. # [09:11] <Hixie> they both use canvas
  236. # [09:12] <othermaciej> that's pretty hot
  237. # [09:12] <Hixie> http://h-master.net/web2.0/index.php will add the BETA badge, but that's not canvas
  238. # [09:13] <Philip`> You can do nice animated rippley reflective water with the 3D canvas, but I guess that's probably a bit too distracting for use on normal web pages
  239. # [09:14] <othermaciej> cool, I just made the logo for Specr
  240. # [09:14] <othermaciej> it even colored the r red
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  251. # [11:00] <mikeday> Prince 6.0 has been released at long last
  252. # [11:01] <mikeday> be the first kid on the block to download it, try it out, find bugs, and complain to us, today! :)
  253. # [11:21] <mikeday> hmm, quiet in here. You're all at XTech, aren't you.
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  257. # [12:23] <jdandrea> Yipe: http://www.thewhir.com/blogs/Paul-Hirsch/index.cfm/2007/4/17/HTML-5-the-next-generation-or-largely-a-pointless-effort
  258. # [12:23] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  259. # [12:25] * jdandrea sees others have already commented. ahh.
  260. # [12:36] <Lachy> does anyone have any stats on how often blockquote is actually used for indenting these days? I've never seen any, it seems to be taken as axiom
  261. # [12:40] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-110-069.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  262. # [12:49] <ROBOd> Lachy: i have some experience with cleaning up HTML documents saved with OpenOffice Writer and Microsoft Word
  263. # [12:50] <ROBOd> Lachy: based on this experience, yes, blockquote is used for indenting, but definition lists are the champions
  264. # [12:51] <ROBOd> almost any document i've worked with contains definition lists wrongly used for indenting text. blockquote is not really often
  265. # [12:57] <mikeday> blockquote is used a lot on blogs, for... block quoting :)
  266. # [13:02] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
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  268. # [13:24] <mikeday> hi zcorpan_
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  280. # [14:43] <met_> http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2007/05/16/quick-spec-for-ies-document-activeelement
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  292. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hmm, does the #distinguishing text look for <section>s that are descendants of <aside> and <nav>? surely they should be ignored?
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  306. # [19:01] <zcorpan_> Hixie: why does it look for <section>s in the first place?
  307. # [19:06] <Dashiva> Hixie: The links in DOMTokenList interface are kinda messed up. add links to remove, and remove doesn't link
  308. # [19:09] <Dashiva> Personally I would define toggle in terms of has, add, remove, since that's kind of what it does
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  311. # [19:11] <clotman> :bn
  312. # [19:16] <Lachy> does anyone remember what the use cases for class="warning" were?
  313. # [19:17] <Lachy> I remember one for class="error", which was for indiciating error messages, such as for form controls, which has benefits particularly for ATs
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  326. # [19:53] * zcorpan_ continues to test bgcolor handling
  327. # [19:54] <zcorpan_> everyone do slightly different things. i wonder what is sanest, and what is required
  328. # [19:58] * zcorpan_ is amused by the insanity
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  334. # [20:19] <Philip`> Hmm, the spec currently seems to have the thin green SCS line down pretty much its entire length, but only in Opera and not Firefox
  335. # [20:22] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  336. # [20:23] <zcorpan_> yeah
  337. # [20:24] <zcorpan_> the status xml file needs an update
  338. # [20:27] <ddfreyne> Is there a feed for the specs' recent changes?
  339. # [20:28] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/WHATWG
  340. # [20:28] <met_> or mailing list
  341. # [20:29] <Philip`> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker and http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2007/date.html have information on changes too
  342. # [20:29] <Dashiva> Sign up for the commit-watchers
  343. # [20:29] <ddfreyne> thanks!
  344. # [20:31] <Philip`> Also http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html
  345. # [20:32] <Philip`> It's hard to avoid accidentally running into a list of recent changes :-)
  346. # [20:32] <ddfreyne> yeah, but there still is no rss feed. :P
  347. # [20:33] <ddfreyne> (or atom)
  348. # [20:33] <zcorpan_> there is for twitter
  349. # [20:33] <zcorpan_> though you'll only get the messages
  350. # [20:33] <ddfreyne> true, but that doesn't include the diff
  351. # [20:34] * Joins: hendry_ (n=hendry@91.84.62.62)
  352. # [20:34] <zcorpan_> we can add a feed to web-apps-tracker. contributors welcome: http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/web-apps-tracker/web-apps-tracker
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  364. # [21:58] <Philip`> http://tapper-ware.net/canvas3d/ - I hadn't seen that before, but it seems to work fairly nicely
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  369. # [22:35] <Hixie> aww, how cute
  370. # [22:35] <Hixie> public-html is still arguing about whether we should have predefined classes
  371. # [22:36] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@204-16-153-102-static.ipnetworksinc.net)
  372. # [22:37] <gsnedders> awwwwww… so sweet, isn't it? :P
  373. # [22:38] <met_> Hixie you sent the notice about classes only to whatwg list
  374. # [22:40] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@204-16-153-102-static.ipnetworksinc.net) (Client Quit)
  375. # [22:40] <Philip`> Maybe commit-watchers could be forwarded to public-html so people don't get lost arguing about points that were already addressed weeks ago
  376. # [22:40] <Philip`> (Well, that's not actually a sensible idea, but maybe something to make sure people stay up to speed)
  377. # [22:42] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@35.129.102-84.rev.gaoland.net)
  378. # [22:45] <Hixie> that's Dan's problem, IMHO
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  402. # Session Close: Fri May 18 00:00:00 2007

The end :)