/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 18 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: weinigLap_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.217)
  4. # [00:12] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yt?
  5. # [00:15] * Quits: weinigLap (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-016ba433c7d92837) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  6. # [00:28] * Joins: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-c915a43d838f5f8a)
  7. # [00:29] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yo
  8. # [00:30] <zcorpan_> why does #distinguishing look for <section> elements?
  9. # [00:32] <Hixie> it looks for anything that can be considered "in flow"
  10. # [00:32] <zcorpan_> but a <section> in an <aside> shouldn't make a difference, should it?
  11. # [00:33] <zcorpan_> or <nav>
  12. # [00:33] <Hixie> true
  13. # [00:39] <zcorpan_> btw, Roger said that the links made the text in the spec harder to read. this might make it easier to read: [href^="#"] { color: inherit; text-decoration: underline; }
  14. # [00:41] <Hixie> maybe
  15. # [00:43] <Hixie> ugh, there are so many things wrong with the #distinguishing thing
  16. # [00:43] <Hixie> how to fix
  17. # [00:43] <Hixie> how to fix
  18. # [00:45] <Hixie> what i want to say is that if the structure is 1 top level header and 1 header below that, ignoring headers in <nav> and <aside>, and that the header below it is in an <article>, then that's the site/page case
  19. # [00:45] <Hixie> and all other cases are standalone pages
  20. # [00:46] <othermaciej> what's #distinguishing?
  21. # [00:46] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=825&to=826
  22. # [00:48] <Lachy> othermaciej, see the spec. it's a fragment identifier for the section
  23. # [00:48] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#distinguishing
  24. # [00:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: perhaps phrase it as "for the purposes of finding the page's heading..." or so, instead of having it as authoring conformance requirements
  25. # [00:48] * othermaciej looks
  26. # [00:48] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i want it as both authoring and ua reqs
  27. # [00:49] <zcorpan_> ok
  28. # [00:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's basically an experimental solution to an issue that has caused many arguments
  29. # [00:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm trying to see if i can make the spec clear it up once and for all
  30. # [00:49] <Lachy> the way it is right now, it's extremely complex. I don't even understand it
  31. # [00:50] * othermaciej is confused reading that
  32. # [00:51] <zcorpan_> wouldn't it clear up the issue even if it didn't actually contain authoring conformance requirements?
  33. # [00:51] <Hixie> yeah don't worry about the text there now
  34. # [00:51] <Hixie> zcorpan_: there's no point having the author be allowed to do things that the UA will interpret as something else
  35. # [00:52] <zcorpan_> well, you can't check the author's intent anyway, right?
  36. # [00:52] <Hixie> actually in this case you could
  37. # [00:53] <Hixie> if you validated multiple pages at once
  38. # [00:53] <zcorpan_> oh
  39. # [00:53] <zcorpan_> right
  40. # [00:53] <Hixie> (somewhat)
  41. # [00:53] <Hixie> anyway there are plenty of requirements that can't be checked
  42. # [00:53] <zcorpan_> indeed
  43. # [01:03] * Quits: hendry_ (n=hendry@91.84.62.62) ("nn")
  44. # [01:04] <Hixie> ok, redid it
  45. # [01:04] <Hixie> is it any better?
  46. # [01:05] * zcorpan_ checks
  47. # [01:06] <Hixie> (eventually i'll have examples of course)
  48. # [01:07] <Lachy> in the first paragraph, shouldn't it say "must be nested as the heading of an article [or section] element,"?
  49. # [01:08] <Hixie> in the _first_ paragraph? of the new text?
  50. # [01:08] <Lachy> ah, sorry, it loaded from my cache
  51. # [01:09] <Hixie> heh
  52. # [01:10] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yeah, that's better
  53. # [01:10] <Hixie> goodgood
  54. # [01:13] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=Toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  55. # [01:13] <Lachy> so to have a site wide header, the page structure has to be like <body><h1/><article/></body>?
  56. # [01:13] <Hixie> basically
  57. # [01:14] <Lachy> or possibly using a <header>
  58. # [01:14] <Hixie> right, with as many <nav>s, <aside>s, and kinds of other crap aronud
  59. # [01:14] <Hixie> around
  60. # [01:14] <Hixie> wow that sentence was missing so many words
  61. # [01:14] <Hixie> "right, with as many <nav>s, <aside>s, and all kinds of other crap around as needed"
  62. # [01:15] <othermaciej> if it was possible, it would be best if site-wide header and document header were structurally different in a way that made it difficult to accidentally do one when you meant the other
  63. # [01:16] <Lachy> so if the page had <body><h1/><article/><article/></body>, then the h1 wouldn't be a site wide header?
  64. # [01:16] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.208)
  65. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: you don't really need to think about it
  66. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> Lachy: right
  67. # [01:16] <Lachy> that seems counter intuitive for authors
  68. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> why?
  69. # [01:17] <Hixie> so anyone want to help me do some examination of pages with numerous <base> elements?
  70. # [01:17] <Lachy> cause why should the h1 stop being the site header, just because there's an additional <article> element?
  71. # [01:18] <Lachy> I just think it's overly restrictive on how authors can structure their pages, and authors just won't be able to follow it correctly
  72. # [01:18] <zcorpan_> Lachy: consider a typical blog
  73. # [01:19] <Hixie> actually my blog is a good example of why the spec doesn't work
  74. # [01:19] <Lachy> yeah, a typical blog has multiple articles
  75. # [01:19] <Hixie> but then there _is_ no "page header" in those cases
  76. # [01:19] <Hixie> it's just a site header followed by a bunch of article headers
  77. # [01:19] <Hixie> so i dunno
  78. # [01:20] <Lachy> oh, ok, now I get it
  79. # [01:20] <Hixie> i'm open to better solutions
  80. # [01:20] <Lachy> hmm. I need to think about it a bit more
  81. # [01:20] <Hixie> maybe i should just say that if there are multiple articles, the page header _is_ the site header
  82. # [01:20] <Hixie> certainly what's in the spec now is just experimental
  83. # [01:20] <Hixie> so feel free to send feedback
  84. # [01:20] <Lachy> will do
  85. # [01:21] <Lachy> I probably need to get some sleep first, the sun is up already (I've been up all night)
  86. # [01:22] <Hixie> heh
  87. # [01:22] <Hixie> nn
  88. # [01:22] <zcorpan_> hm, yeah, a front page (with multiple <article>s) could be considered to only have a site-wide header and no page header
  89. # [01:24] <Hixie> horrah, i found a way in which IE7's <base> handling broke a real page
  90. # [01:24] <Hixie> http://www.samidoon.com/index.php?page=forums
  91. # [01:24] <Hixie> second link up from the bottom of the left sidebar
  92. # [01:24] <Hixie> third link up too
  93. # [01:25] <Hixie> in fact most of the links in that sidebar
  94. # [01:25] <othermaciej> one thing I wonder about is why it's important to distinguish site header from document header - is it solely for purposes of generating the document outline?
  95. # [01:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's not really important. it's one of those things that people argue about, though.
  96. # [01:27] <zcorpan_> so basically: if there are no <article> elements, then the <body>'s heading is the page header, and there is no site-wide header. if there is exactly one <article> (ignoring nested), then that <article>'s heading is the page header and the <body>'s heading is the site-wide header. if there are multiple <article>s (ignoring nested), then the <body>'s heading is the site-wide header and there is no page header.
  97. # [01:27] <othermaciej> One possibility is to introduce <header sitewide> and <h1 sitewide> which is legal only on headers for the body section
  98. # [01:28] <othermaciej> that wouldn't put any weird restrictions on document structure, is easy for authors, and doesn't complexity the outline algorithm much
  99. # [01:28] <othermaciej> *complexify
  100. # [01:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, i considered that
  101. # [01:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: might be a better solution
  102. # [01:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: i was looking for a "natural" solution first (one that can be inferred)
  103. # [01:29] * zcorpan_ likes the implied semantics better
  104. # [01:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: indeed, that would be nice, so long as the "natural" solution isn't too complex for authors and implementors to understand
  105. # [01:31] <Lachy> what specific problem is solved by being able to clearly distinguish a site-wide header from a page header?
  106. # [01:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
  107. # [01:31] <othermaciej> consider in particular that a blog page can go from having one article included to many without a change in document semantics implied
  108. # [01:32] <Hixie> Lachy: none, other than putting an end to one particular brand of long pointless arguments
  109. # [01:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, i gave that example above
  110. # [01:32] <zcorpan_> Lachy: authors don't know how to mark up site-wide headers
  111. # [01:32] <zcorpan_> because html4 doesn't cover it
  112. # [01:32] <Hixie> horrah, another 404 in IE7
  113. # [01:32] <Hixie> http://n2ch.lazy8.info/headline/headline.cgi?mode=category&group=test
  114. # [01:32] <Hixie> search for "489. somethingorother (2007.5.14) New"
  115. # [01:33] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-82306d62ec843c45) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  116. # [01:34] <Hixie> ok wtf
  117. # [01:34] <Hixie> all these pages are CJK
  118. # [01:34] <Hixie> is there something in the east that encourages crazy use of <base> or what
  119. # [01:36] <Lachy> wow! Some people still don't get it http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/16/2342213
  120. # [01:38] <zcorpan_> Lachy: indeed
  121. # [01:39] * zcorpan_ can start a DTD hosting business and make profit of people's ignorance
  122. # [01:40] <Philip`> You could host all your DTDs in a data: URI
  123. # [01:41] <zcorpan_> oh yeah
  124. # [01:41] <zcorpan_> that way they never stop working
  125. # [01:42] <Lachy> *all your DTDs are belong to us*
  126. # [01:42] <Lachy> :-)
  127. # [01:42] <zcorpan_> http://all.your.dtds.are.belong.to.us/
  128. # [01:43] <Lachy> thanks, I'll put that in my slashdot comment ;-)(
  129. # [01:43] <zcorpan_> :)
  130. # [01:44] <Philip`> If I had a DTD hosting business, I don't know if I'd be able to resist the temptation of randomly changing a default attribute value on one in a thousand requests just to see what happens
  131. # [01:45] <Hixie> heh
  132. # [01:56] <Lachy> http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=235013&cid=19172367
  133. # [02:13] <zcorpan_> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/use_only_blocklevel_elements_in_blockquotes/ feedback is: make <blockquote> and <form> bimorphic
  134. # [02:13] <Lachy> yes
  135. # [02:15] <zcorpan_> which is something i've thought about before, too
  136. # [02:15] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  137. # [02:15] <zcorpan_> at least for <form>
  138. # [02:15] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com)
  139. # [02:22] <Hixie> you'd have an implied paragraph for the contents? or?
  140. # [02:22] <Lachy> it certainly makes sense for form. I think I've even requested it before for it
  141. # [02:22] <Lachy> The blockquote would be the paragraph itself
  142. # [02:22] <Lachy> you would only need it to contain block elements when the quote itself was a multi-paragraph quote
  143. # [02:24] <Hixie> i guess it makes sense
  144. # [02:24] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  145. # [02:28] <Lachy> hey, I forgot to mention, It's been confirmed that I'll be doing another HTML5 presentaiton at Open Publish in August http://www.openpublish.com.au/
  146. # [02:28] * othermaciej is now known as om_food
  147. # [02:29] <Hixie> cool
  148. # [02:29] * zcorpan_ will have his presentation in a few days now
  149. # [02:30] <Lachy> zcorpan_, where are you presenting?
  150. # [02:30] <zcorpan_> stockholm
  151. # [02:31] <zcorpan_> is google.com redesigned?
  152. # [02:31] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
  153. # [02:31] <Lachy> zcorpan_, yes
  154. # [02:31] <Hixie> yeah, see the google blog
  155. # [02:31] <Lachy> google.com.au hasn't been done yet, though
  156. # [02:32] <zcorpan_> not google.se either
  157. # [02:44] <om_food> still very old school design on the inside
  158. # [02:44] * om_food is now known as othermaciej
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  160. # [02:53] <othermaciej> does google have any announcement of their new search thing other than on the google blog?
  161. # [02:54] * zcorpan_ doesn't find the redesign announcement
  162. # [02:54] <othermaciej> I can't find a press release or anything
  163. # [02:54] <othermaciej> try searching for "google universal search"
  164. # [02:54] <Hixie> the press was all over campus yesterday
  165. # [02:54] <Hixie> search google news for "universal search"
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  167. # [02:55] <zcorpan_> http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/index.php?id=2078
  168. # [02:55] <Lachy> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/17/universal_search/
  169. # [02:55] <othermaciej> ah, press release here: http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/universalsearch_20070516.html
  170. # [02:56] <othermaciej> interesting subtext in some of the stories on this: "will this ruin search engine marketing"?
  171. # [02:57] <Hixie> "search engine marketing"?
  172. # [02:57] <othermaciej> companies that base their business on being high in the google search results for particular terms
  173. # [02:57] <othermaciej> seems like a weird reaction
  174. # [02:57] <Hixie> not sure how this would affect that
  175. # [02:58] <othermaciej> me neither
  176. # [03:00] <othermaciej> I think the idea is that it is harder to get into and stay in the top 10 when more different kinds of content are competing with you
  177. # [03:00] <Lachy> othermaciej, re your latest mail, placeholder="" is absolutely essential. We really need that to be added ASAP
  178. # [03:01] <othermaciej> Lachy: well I can't add it, but I can gently remind the person that I asked to write up how it works in WebKit :-)
  179. # [03:01] <Lachy> yeah
  180. # [03:02] <Hixie> wf2 and all forms related things are on hold until either we get clear direction from the forms task force, or i run out of other things to do
  181. # [03:02] * Lachy prods Hixie with a sharp stick to add placeholder=""
  182. # [03:02] <Hixie> right now i honestly couldn't tell you which is more likely to happen first
  183. # [03:02] <Hixie> but i'm not going to spend months doing integration work only to be told by the w3c that we're not doing that
  184. # [03:02] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be more effective to ask Mozilla to implement it first
  185. # [03:02] <Hixie> opera might be more likely to do it first
  186. # [03:02] <Lachy> maybe
  187. # [03:03] * zcorpan_ would like placeholder implemented too
  188. # [03:03] <zcorpan_> that is one feature that is worked around oh so often
  189. # [03:03] <Lachy> the accessibility people would be really happy with it, since it would solve all the problems that authors create by hacking it with JS
  190. # [03:04] <zcorpan_> yeah
  191. # [03:04] * Hixie agrees
  192. # [03:04] <Lachy> and when I get request to implement such scripts for for <input type="password">, I won't need to explain why that won't work
  193. # [03:05] <othermaciej> I'd like us (Safari/WebKit team) to try to document it for standardization even if it does not go into spec right away
  194. # [03:05] <Lachy> yeah, getting it documented and implemented is better than having it in the spec
  195. # [03:12] <Hixie> ok i'm getting really pissed off at <a href="javascript:window.open(...)">
  196. # [03:12] <Hixie> LET ME OPEN THE FUCKING LINK WHERE I WANT TO OPEN IT
  197. # [03:12] <Lachy> woah, I've never seen Hixie swear before
  198. # [03:12] <Hixie> oh i swear all the time
  199. # [03:12] <Lachy> not in IRC
  200. # [03:13] <Lachy> or email
  201. # [03:13] <Hixie> possible :_)
  202. # [03:13] <Hixie> not in e-mail, indeed
  203. # [03:16] <othermaciej> my top can't-open-link-where-I-want-to annoyance is gmail
  204. # [03:16] <othermaciej> in particular links in messages look like normal targetted links, but trying to open them in a tab fails
  205. # [03:16] <othermaciej> because it has some logic other than the UA's link handling to handle the events
  206. # [03:17] <Hixie> gmail is pretty screwed up for link handling
  207. # [03:17] <Hixie> mostly because of trying to get around browsers neding Referer headers
  208. # [03:17] <Hixie> sending
  209. # [03:18] * jcgregorio doesn't know how you could work all day across every different browser and *not* swear...
  210. # [03:18] <othermaciej> oh, I see, privacy issues
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  257. # [09:15] <Lachy> heh, the whatwg blog spammers who are signing up to write their own articles are actually being somewhat informative. if only they'd link to the sites they were talking about
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  268. # [10:37] <mikeday> it's quiet.
  269. # [10:37] * mikeday waits for someone to say "too quiet".
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  271. # [10:40] <othermaciej> too quiet
  272. # [10:51] <mikeday> heh
  273. # [10:51] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  274. # [10:51] <mikeday> I don't even know where that's originally from
  275. # [10:51] <mikeday> movie, presumably.
  276. # [10:52] <othermaciej> it's a cliche, hard to tell any more
  277. # [10:54] <mikeday> "too quiet... for what?"
  278. # [10:55] <mikeday> my theory is that everyone is at XTech
  279. # [10:56] <mikeday> and is thus unable to find a decent wireless connection and thus unable to get on irc
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  298. # [13:47] <mikeday> hmm.
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  300. # [13:51] <Lachy> what are you hmm-ing for?
  301. # [13:52] <mikeday> ah hah!
  302. # [13:52] <mikeday> some people just can't be left hanging :)
  303. # [13:52] <mikeday> predefined classes are gone. I hardly knew 'em.
  304. # [13:53] <mikeday> in fact, I didn't know them; what were they? :/
  305. # [13:54] <Philip`> They were more like postdefined classes
  306. # [13:54] <Philip`> given that people were using them already, and they were just being defined
  307. # [13:55] <mikeday> ah. The definition was just for semantics, and wouldn't affect user agent behaviour, right?
  308. # [13:55] <mikeday> (except for user agents that give a damn about semantics of course...)
  309. # [13:56] <Philip`> I think it didn't add any requirements for UAs - only for authors
  310. # [13:57] <mikeday> hmm, I can think of a good requirement for authors
  311. # [13:57] <Philip`> (but I've never looked at the description closely to see if I'm missing some aspect)
  312. # [13:57] <mikeday> "Authors: stop writing all these crappy pages. Signed, User Agent Implementors"
  313. # [14:01] <mikeday> hmm, that gets back to the role attribute then I guess
  314. # [14:01] <mikeday> what if people just add their own attributes to a document
  315. # [14:01] <mikeday> they still get parsed and end up in the DOM, right?
  316. # [14:02] <Philip`> They do (as far as I'm aware)
  317. # [14:02] <mikeday> so... since the role attribute won't affect visual user agents
  318. # [14:02] <mikeday> why not just run with it for a while and see what happens
  319. # [14:02] <Philip`> Run with it for what purpose?
  320. # [14:02] <mikeday> it doesn't need to be baked into the spec from day 1, right?
  321. # [14:02] * mikeday shrugs
  322. # [14:03] <mikeday> whatever purpose people want to run with it for
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  324. # [14:03] <mikeday> some people want it, yes?
  325. # [14:04] <Philip`> The predefined classes were removed because there weren't convincing use cases for that kind of feature, so using role to implement the same feature wouldn't help
  326. # [14:04] <mikeday> hmm. I guess my point is, if some people want to use the role attribute to do X
  327. # [14:04] <mikeday> then they can just go ahead and use the role attribute to do X,
  328. # [14:04] <mikeday> without bothering anyone else
  329. # [14:04] <mikeday> if it turns out that doing X is actually really useful, and the role attribute is a neat way to do it,
  330. # [14:05] <Philip`> They can, though they'll be non-conformant
  331. # [14:05] <mikeday> then someone can come along and make an interoperable specification of what they're doing.
  332. # [14:05] <mikeday> non-conformant like every other page on the entire internet, yes :)
  333. # [14:05] <mikeday> but if it works for them, no harm done
  334. # [14:06] <mikeday> but things shouldn't get baked into specifications when they've never been tried
  335. # [14:07] <Philip`> I suppose you could argue that a role attribute is only useful when both authors and (some) UAs make use of it, and use it in a consistent way, which requires coordination between all those groups, and coordination between groups is what standards are for
  336. # [14:08] <mikeday> hmm. <blink> and <marquee> were added 'cos some developers thought they would be cool
  337. # [14:08] <mikeday> authors then used them, 'cos they had no sense of style and thought that they looked cool
  338. # [14:08] <mikeday> coordination between groups doesn't always require a committee
  339. # [14:09] <mikeday> especially since role seems rather like an accessibility-oriented microformat
  340. # [14:10] <mikeday> on an entirely unrelated note, Prince actually supports a :role() pseudo-class in CSS
  341. # [14:10] <mikeday> no relationship to the role attribute at all though
  342. # [14:10] <mikeday> it's for doing things like this:
  343. # [14:10] <mikeday> h1, h2 { role: heading }
  344. # [14:10] <Philip`> That approach seems to work, as long as it's a sufficiently large group adding the feature before there are any users, and then users pick up on it afterwards
  345. # [14:10] <mikeday> *:role(heading) { font-weight: bold }
  346. # [14:10] <Philip`> e.g. Netscape and Microsoft adding features
  347. # [14:11] <Philip`> and Google adding rel=nofollow
  348. # [14:11] <mikeday> So you could use CSS to assign some semantic information to elements
  349. # [14:11] <mikeday> we've never really used the feature though, it turned out to be pretty pointless for styling
  350. # [14:11] <Philip`> (Uh, Google+Yahoo+MSN)
  351. # [14:11] <mikeday> rel=nofollow is a good example, what if they had added a new attribute instead? would it still have worked?
  352. # [14:13] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  353. # [14:13] <Philip`> Search engines can add features that browsers can't really parse - AdSense has "<!-- google_ad_section_start -->"
  354. # [14:13] <mikeday> some people embed RDF in HTML comments as well, eg. for creative commons licenses I believe
  355. # [14:13] <Philip`> so they can do pretty much whatever they want, and it'll still work in the 'technically possible' sense
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  357. # [14:14] <mikeday> right, but new attributes still get added to the DOM and can be manipulated with JavaScript
  358. # [14:14] <mikeday> so it's not just technically possible, but seems just as practical as using rel
  359. # [14:15] <Philip`> except doing something that makes the page non-conforming would probably come under significant criticism from people who like their pages to be valid, which would limit the number of users who'd make use of the feature
  360. # [14:15] <mikeday> hmm, is rel="nofollow" conformant? I thought rel was fairly limited in the values it could take.
  361. # [14:15] <Philip`> (Even people who don't bother with validity read blogs or use CMSs from people who do care)
  362. # [14:16] <Philip`> "Authors may wish to define additional link types not described in this specification. If they do so, they should use a profile to cite the conventions used to define the link types."
  363. # [14:16] <Philip`> (where "link types" is what rel is a space-separated of)
  364. # [14:17] <mikeday> hmm, no one uses profile for nofollow, do they? :)
  365. # [14:17] <mikeday> I get what you're saying though
  366. # [14:17] <mikeday> the emphasis on validity, and the disconnect between validators, browsers and specifications is rather troublesome
  367. # [14:17] <Philip`> No, but it's only a "should", so it's conformant to not use profile :-)
  368. # [14:18] <mikeday> hmm, now that I think about it, using CSS to assign semantics has some benefits over the role attribute
  369. # [14:19] <mikeday> it saves space, as you can just put your declarations in a style sheet somewhere instead of repeating them.
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  371. # [14:19] <mikeday> people won't like mixing stuff with CSS though
  372. # [14:20] <mikeday> maybe rather use <link rel="roles" ... to point to some RDF or something that assigns them
  373. # [14:20] <mikeday> CSS gets no respect, people don't even want to use it to define links :)
  374. # [14:21] <Philip`> I think semantics that are necessary for understanding the page should be entirely in the page's HTML, and work with styles disabled - that's why there's <div irrelevant>...</div> and x<sup>2</sup>
  375. # [14:23] <mikeday> hmm, that's a strong argument in favour of a role attribute then, rather than out-of-band role info
  376. # [14:23] <mikeday> assuming such a thing be necessary at all.
  377. # [14:25] <mikeday> if this is aimed at screen readers say, it seems like there is a need for screen readers to drive the adoption process
  378. # [14:25] <mikeday> if one of them implemented support for the role attribute, then people could try it out
  379. # [14:25] <mikeday> just like Apple has prototyped <video> or whatever
  380. # [14:25] <mikeday> if it turned out to be useful it could go in the spec, otherwise stay proprietary
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  382. # [14:27] <Philip`> That sounds reasonable to me
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  385. # [14:29] <mikeday> and if you can't convince anyone to implement it, it probably isn't worth adding it to a spec :)
  386. # [14:29] <mikeday> anyhoo, must go
  387. # [14:29] * mikeday waves
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  392. # [15:09] <Dashiva> Mr. html60 is at it again...
  393. # [15:12] * gavins is now known as gavin_
  394. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> yay! DOMContentLoaded
  395. # [15:22] <Philip`> It'd be nice if I could write <li from=1><li from=2><li from=3><li from=5><li from=13><li from=65533><li><li> and get the browser to calculate the rest of the Ackermann function for me
  396. # [15:25] <Dashiva> It would just find a different sequence matching that start, pssh
  397. # [15:25] <Philip`> Actually, that wouldn't be too hard - it can just look up the first matching entry in the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences, and then I wouldn't be limited to merely arithmetic and geometric sequences in my list numberings
  398. # [15:27] <Philip`> Oh, plan foiled - http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A126333 doesn't give many entries :-(
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  411. # [17:54] <mpt> nickshanks, that "ship your own library version, use any newer version" approach is how Growl works
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  414. # [18:01] <nickshanks> mpt: seems pretty robust
  415. # [18:04] <mpt> The catch is that if an app contains a version that is newer than the system version, the app's version replaces the system version
  416. # [18:05] <mpt> because that's the easiest way to install updates
  417. # [18:05] <mpt> So if an app claims to have a new version that's actually malware, every app that was using Growl suffers
  418. # [18:09] <Philip`> Do they have some key to sign it with, so only official versions are allowed to be installed?
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  420. # [18:09] <mpt> dunno
  421. # [18:09] <mpt> The Amiga used to have an arp.library that worked much the same way
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  478. # [23:38] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com)
  479. # [23:38] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  480. # [23:44] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("k lol plz thx bai")
  481. # [23:52] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.62.62) ("andsleep")
  482. # Session Close: Sat May 19 00:00:00 2007

The end :)