/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 19 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:09] <Hixie> if i have an array of elements
  4. # [00:09] <Hixie> which might contain duplicates
  5. # [00:09] <Hixie> and i want to go through and do something once to each element in the array
  6. # [00:10] <Hixie> without actually mutating the elements themselves
  7. # [00:10] <Hixie> how would i do it?
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  9. # [00:11] <Dashiva> To each unique element?
  10. # [00:12] <Dashiva> Personally, I would put each value into a temporary object, so I'd know if I had seen it before
  11. # [00:13] <Dashiva> hash/dictionary/etc as fits your paradigm
  12. # [00:15] <othermaciej> yeah what Dashiva said
  13. # [00:15] <othermaciej> build a hashtable set of elements seen as you traverse the array
  14. # [00:17] <Hixie> how?
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  16. # [00:18] <Hixie> (this is in JS with DOM elements)
  17. # [00:22] <othermaciej> you're screwed then
  18. # [00:22] <othermaciej> there's no efficient way to do it without modifying the elements in some way
  19. # [00:22] <othermaciej> JS doesn't have a way to hash on anything but string keys
  20. # [00:23] <Dashiva> This is where someone points out IE's uniqueID
  21. # [00:23] <Hixie> so i guess we should introduce IE's "uniqueID" then
  22. # [00:23] <Hixie> yeah
  23. # [00:23] <Dashiva> ... that was somewhat disturbing timing
  24. # [00:24] <othermaciej> what is IE's uniqueID?
  25. # [00:24] <Hixie> this came up cos dean was asking for uniqueID
  26. # [00:24] <Hixie> http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/properties/uniqueid.asp
  27. # [00:24] <Dashiva> It's a unique ID for any given element
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  29. # [00:26] <othermaciej> that's kind of useful, yeah
  30. # [00:26] <Dashiva> Since it's not guaranteed to be stable, there should (uhuh) be no need to match IE's algorithm for creating either
  31. # [00:26] <othermaciej> you have to make sure the unique ID doesn't reveal any pointer values
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  33. # [00:27] <othermaciej> or it makes security exploits easier
  34. # [00:27] <Dashiva> Could just make it a counter
  35. # [00:27] <othermaciej> that is possible, though sloppy (not sure how feasible it is to cycle through enough elements to overflow a counter)
  36. # [00:27] <othermaciej> what would be better is for JS to have data structures that can be keyed by object identity
  37. # [00:28] <othermaciej> instead of just by string value
  38. # [00:28] <Philip`> Why is it alright to have a uniqueID that magically creates numbers and stores them in the object, but not alright for JS to modify the object itself?
  39. # [00:29] <Dashiva> The uniqueID is idempotent?
  40. # [00:30] <othermaciej> I don't understand their example
  41. # [00:30] <Hixie> what? you don't understand an msdn example? surely not.
  42. # [00:30] <Hixie> there are several security issues with uniqueID, as othermaciej points out
  43. # [00:31] <Hixie> can't be directly from the pointer. can't be a global counter (since you'll reveal what the user's activity in other windows is like)
  44. # [00:31] <Dashiva> Isn't uniqueID specific to each browsing context?
  45. # [00:32] <Hixie> could be, but then what if you adopt a node to another document?
  46. # [00:32] <othermaciej> it has to be a one-way hash of the pointer basically
  47. # [00:33] <othermaciej> or generate them on the fly, store a pointer in the element, and use a global hashtable to avoid duplicates
  48. # [00:33] <Hixie> the latter is expensive
  49. # [00:33] <othermaciej> it's really just making up for a deficiency in the JavaScript language
  50. # [00:33] <Hixie> around 4 bytes per element globally
  51. # [00:34] <Philip`> You could encrypt the pointer with some secret key, and then it'll never have collisions (assuming the output size is the same as the pointer size)
  52. # [00:34] <Hixie> yeah
  53. # [00:34] <Hixie> (@othermaciej)
  54. # [00:34] <othermaciej> but if it is a single secret key then it will be reverse engineered eventually
  55. # [00:34] <othermaciej> I don't think a hash can be both one-to-one and irreversible
  56. # [00:34] <Philip`> The key can be randomly generated each time you start the browser
  57. # [00:35] <othermaciej> that could work
  58. # [00:35] <othermaciej> but anyway if JS had a data structure keyed on object identity that would be a much better solution overall
  59. # [00:36] <othermaciej> this sort of thing comes up all the time, and not always just for DOM elements
  60. # [00:36] <othermaciej> I should propose such a thing for ES4 if they do not have one already
  61. # [00:36] <othermaciej> OK, I keep staring and I still can't figure out what this is about: window.setTimeout(uniqueID+".tick()", delay);
  62. # [00:36] <othermaciej> why would you call the custom method on a string?
  63. # [00:37] <othermaciej> or does the uniqueID get magically bound in some namespace?
  64. # [00:37] * othermaciej 's brain hurts
  65. # [00:37] * Dashiva thinks so
  66. # [00:37] <othermaciej> I should stop thinking about it
  67. # [00:37] <Dashiva> This is IE, they like global namespace flooding
  68. # [00:37] <Hixie> the first argument to setTimeout is a string to evaluate
  69. # [00:37] * Toolskyn88 is now known as Toolskyn
  70. # [00:37] <Hixie> in IE, IDs are in the global namespace
  71. # [00:39] <othermaciej> the uniqueIDs? or element ID attributes?
  72. # [00:39] <othermaciej> or both?
  73. # [00:43] <Philip`> When you access uniqueID, it appears to create an object in window with that name (window.ms__id15 etc) pointing to the object you got the uniqueID from
  74. # [00:43] <Hixie> both
  75. # [00:45] <Philip`> Oh, it also has document.getElementById(x) === document.getElementById(x.uniqueID)
  76. # [00:45] <Philip`> Uh
  77. # [00:45] <Philip`> document.getElementById(x.id) === document.getElementById(x.uniqueID)
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  94. # [02:19] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - now hopefully updated to match the spec again (though not checked very carefully so there may be bugs), plus WebKit data
  95. # [02:20] <Philip`> (which was quite painful to collect - I need a much better way of gathering results when the browser doesn't provide getImageData to do it automatically...)
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  97. # [02:22] <zcorpan_> Philip`: wow, nice work
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  99. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: that's why you want tests that you can determine the pass/fail result for in 200ms or less
  100. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: that way collecting results is just a matter of having a page load every test in a row, with you hitting "y" or "n" for each one
  101. # [02:24] <Philip`> Hixie: Determining the results is easy - the problem is I've currently just got little checkboxes for each one, and clicking all those is annoying when a computer should be able to do the job much faster :-)
  102. # [02:25] <Philip`> although actually the biggest problem was that after the first 180 or so, Safari stopped responding to any interaction with the form, so I had to select the rest of the checkboxes via javascript: in the address bar
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  104. # [02:27] <Hixie> heh
  105. # [02:27] * Hixie thinks it takes more than 200ms to determine if those tests have passed or not, though
  106. # [02:27] <Hixie> e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/initial.reset.security.html
  107. # [02:28] <Hixie> it has loads of text
  108. # [02:28] <Philip`> Oh, those ones are easy because it does it automatically and colours the background
  109. # [02:28] <Philip`> so the text can just be ignored
  110. # [02:28] <Hixie> yeah but you have to know that
  111. # [02:28] <Hixie> QA people go through tens of thousands of tests, they can't know them all :-)
  112. # [02:29] <Philip`> For the ones where the outcome can be determined automatically, the QA people shouldn't even see them since it's not a good use of their time
  113. # [02:29] <Philip`> ...but that means I need a better way of reporting the results and asking for human confirmation when necessary
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  121. # [02:49] * zcorpan_ would love to have elastomania implemented in <canvas>
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  123. # [02:52] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/minimal.initial.reset.security.html - is that version bare enough now? :-)
  124. # [02:52] <Hixie> still has three links :-)
  125. # [02:53] <Hixie> see http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
  126. # [02:53] <Hixie> though ignore the filename crap
  127. # [02:54] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/minimal.toDataURL.complexcolours.html when it can't determine the result by itself)
  128. # [02:54] <Hixie> those are a bit complex
  129. # [02:54] <Hixie> the general colour scheme that test cases use is described somewhere, too, hold on
  130. # [02:55] <Hixie> oh it's in that same file http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html#color
  131. # [02:55] <Hixie> you never want to use a green colour when it's not a pass
  132. # [02:55] <Hixie> never red when it's not a fail
  133. # [02:55] <Hixie> (red trumps green if both are there)
  134. # [02:55] <Hixie> you want blue when the tester has to look closer
  135. # [02:55] <Hixie> navy, specifically
  136. # [02:56] <Hixie> also, the colours should geenerally be #008000 #ff0000 #00ff00 and #000080
  137. # [02:56] <Hixie> many qa people in browser dev are basically hardwired to act to those colours now
  138. # [02:56] <Philip`> It's sometimes hard to be specific about colours when the test is intentionally trying to test multiple colours, though
  139. # [02:56] <Hixie> even something slightly outside that range causes them untold amount of time confused :-)
  140. # [02:56] <Hixie> yeah
  141. # [02:56] <Hixie> there are tests where that doesn't apply
  142. # [02:57] <Hixie> but they're rare
  143. # [02:57] <Hixie> see e.g. http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/
  144. # [02:57] <Hixie> anyway gotta go
  145. # [02:57] <Hixie> ttyl
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  148. # [03:27] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/minimal.toDataURL.complexcolours.html - now bluer than ever before
  149. # [03:28] <Philip`> Still not entirely trivial; but when using a sensible browsers there's only 5 out of 201 cases where you should even have to look at it
  150. # [03:28] <Philip`> s/browsers/browser/
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  161. # [04:42] <a-ja> Hixie, et al: question about 3.8.11.3. Distinguishing site-wide headers from page headers....when referencing one/only/single subsection...should that read/mean *child* subsection instead?
  162. # [04:44] <a-ja> i.e. one/only/single child subsection rather than just one/only/single subsection
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  226. # [14:06] <annevk> Does http://waffle.wootest.net/2007/05/16/ruby-the-same-token/ imply we now have a tokenizer in C?
  227. # [14:12] <Philip`> That seems to be only talking about Objective-C, which isn't the same
  228. # [14:15] <annevk> Oh, ok
  229. # [14:22] * annevk updates HTML5 presentations
  230. # [14:24] <krijnh> annevk: you're going to talk about HTML5 at Info.nl right?
  231. # [14:24] <annevk> heh, how do you know? :)
  232. # [14:25] <krijnh> annevk: I told them to ;p
  233. # [14:25] <krijnh> Well, no, I used your presentation markup to present my CMS
  234. # [14:26] <krijnh> And told Tom about your presentation
  235. # [14:26] <annevk> ah ok
  236. # [14:26] <annevk> :)
  237. # [14:26] <krijnh> He was very interested
  238. # [14:26] <krijnh> Also, you charge too little ;)
  239. # [14:27] <annevk> Oh, I don't care about money
  240. # [14:27] <krijnh> Hehe
  241. # [14:27] <krijnh> Just kidding
  242. # [14:27] <annevk> I figured as much though :)
  243. # [14:28] <krijnh> June 1 around 13h right?
  244. # [14:28] <annevk> (Although I guess the reason I don't care about it is that I have enough.)
  245. # [14:28] <annevk> Yeah
  246. # [14:28] <krijnh> I'll try to be there then as well
  247. # [14:28] <annevk> Oh, you work for them now?
  248. # [14:28] <krijnh> Freelance, yes
  249. # [14:29] <krijnh> 3 days a week or something
  250. # [14:29] <annevk> So we get to meet after all :p
  251. # [14:29] <krijnh> Yay!
  252. # [14:29] <krijnh> ;]
  253. # [14:29] <krijnh> That was my only reason for bringing it up, hehe
  254. # [14:30] <krijnh> Nah
  255. # [14:45] <annevk> Oh I see, it's a superset of C
  256. # [14:46] <annevk> it looks quite different though...
  257. # [14:53] * jdandrea observes he can't generate conforming HTML 5 using XSLT 1.0. The meta content-type is automagically generated when the head element is encountered while using the html output method!
  258. # [14:53] <jdandrea> Workaround: Use XSLT 2.0 (not yet a recommendation) and set include-content-type to no, or hardcode the head element/attributes (also bleah). Ahh well ...
  259. # [14:53] <jdandrea> Other ideas?
  260. # [14:54] <krijnh> And the meta content-type isn't allowed?
  261. # [14:54] <Philip`> XSLT5?
  262. # [14:54] <jdandrea> XSLT5! Now there's an idea.
  263. # [14:54] <jdandrea> Should use something akin to <meta charset="UTF-8">
  264. # [14:54] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  265. # [14:54] <jdandrea> But XSLT 1.0 will output <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  266. # [14:55] <jdandrea> XSLT 2.0 lets you suppress that.
  267. # [14:55] <krijnh> That's non conforming?
  268. # [14:55] <annevk> There has to be an option to suppress that
  269. # [14:55] <jdandrea> I believe so. (I could be wrong?)
  270. # [14:55] <annevk> Yeah, it's non-conforming
  271. # [14:55] <jdandrea> annevk: There is, in XSLT 2.0.
  272. # [14:55] <annevk> Hah, XSLT 2...
  273. # [14:55] <jdandrea> hehe
  274. # [14:56] <jdandrea> Noting it here: http://code.google.com/p/gsa-xhtml-stylesheet/issues/detail?id=30&can=2&q=#c3
  275. # [14:56] * annevk hopes browsers won't have to implement that
  276. # [14:56] <jdandrea> I always thought that was messy (in XSLT 1.0). Now I know why!
  277. # [14:56] <annevk> Maybe you should output "XML compatible" HTML5
  278. # [14:57] * annevk wonders how <!DOCTYPE html> is inserted
  279. # [14:57] <jdandrea> Meaning output-method set to xml? Can do.
  280. # [14:57] <jdandrea> In XSLT 2.0, yes, good question. In 1.0, you can't have multiple outputs, so I have a template that handles it (hardcoded, again - alas).
  281. # [14:57] <jdandrea> Ref: http://code.google.com/p/gsa-xhtml-stylesheet/
  282. # [14:58] <jdandrea> The new version is atoning somewhat (HTML 4.01 Strict, (X)HTML 5, etc.) ;)
  283. # [14:58] <annevk> Maybe Python is more suitable than all this XML fancyness :)
  284. # [14:58] <jdandrea> Maybe.
  285. # [14:59] <jdandrea> This project is intended as a drop-in replacement for the default XSLT on the Google Search Appliance.
  286. # [14:59] <jdandrea> Otherwise, yes, python has some good possibilities here.
  287. # [15:00] <jdandrea> Two more errors to squash and I've got (X)HTML 5 conformance. Yay.
  288. # [15:00] * jdandrea notes that's before considering new HTML 5 elements.
  289. # [15:01] * annevk goes t fetch some food and have lunch
  290. # [15:01] * jdandrea gets ready to head out for the day, waves
  291. # [15:03] <jdandrea> annevk: Ahh, XML compatible HTML5 - of course! I just groked that. That would probably work nicely.
  292. # [15:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@210-84-58-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  293. # [15:33] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - added data for old Firefoxes - it's slowly getting better)
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  297. # [16:37] * zcorpan_ wonders why old firefoxes would be interesting
  298. # [16:42] <Philip`> It's useful if you're trying to write content that's compatible with the old browsers people still use, and want to know which features and bugs they have
  299. # [16:44] <zcorpan_> ah
  300. # [16:44] <zcorpan_> ok
  301. # [16:44] <zcorpan_> i thought it was more aimed at implementors
  302. # [16:45] <Philip`> It probably is, but if it's easy to get the results then one might as well aim partly at other groups too :-)
  303. # [18:01] <annevk> http://me.mywebsight.ws/2007/05/15/xhtml-2-and-html-5-who-will-win/ is funny
  304. # [18:04] <Dashiva> "If (X)HTML 5 is about not being too hard for authors who are too lazy to use XHTML 2, then the English language is about not being too hard for authors who are too lazy to use Esperanto."
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  331. # [20:04] <annevk> Is the Ruby html5lib simply converted Python code?
  332. # [20:04] <annevk> It very much looks that way...
  333. # [20:07] <Philip`> Yes, hence problems like http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=39 where the straightforward Python->Ruby translation doesn't quite work
  334. # [20:10] <annevk> Who's twoggle?
  335. # [20:10] * Joins: weinigLap (n=weinig@17.203.15.217)
  336. # [20:12] <Philip`> Tim Fletcher, it seems
  337. # [20:14] <Philip`> (as in http://text.rubyforge.org/files/lib/text/figlet_rb.html and suchlike)
  338. # [20:17] <annevk> Ah, http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/19/Ruby-HTML5-Parser-Tests-Pass says that too
  339. # [20:30] * Quits: weinigLap (n=weinig@17.203.15.217)
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  356. # [22:59] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
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  358. # [23:21] <Hixie> http://forum.mootools.net/viewtopic.php?pid=15695#15695
  359. # [23:23] <jruderman> "are we really in 2nd Browser-War? is it really between XHTML 2.0 and HTML 5?"
  360. # [23:25] <Hixie> it gets better
  361. # [23:25] <Hixie> he talks about reading the minutes... of a 2004 meeting
  362. # [23:42] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("k lol plz thx bai")
  363. # Session Close: Sun May 20 00:00:00 2007

The end :)