/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [08:34] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  5. # [08:34] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  6. # [08:34] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  10. # [10:43] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  11. # [10:43] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  13. # [10:51] <annevk> mikeday, what error?
  14. # [10:59] <mikeday> annevk, UTF-32 BOM detection
  15. # [10:59] <mikeday> will always misidentify UTF-32 as UTF-16
  16. # [10:59] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=Toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Connection timed out)
  17. # [10:59] <mikeday> see my post "Drop UTF-32" on whatwg mailing list
  18. # [11:01] <annevk> ah right
  19. # [11:03] <mikeday> my HTML parser can now read and skip the BOM, although it can't yet do anything else :)
  20. # [11:07] <annevk> fixed
  21. # [11:08] <mikeday> that's good. I still think UTF-32 should be verboten, though :)
  22. # [11:09] * jeremyb looks up verboten
  23. # [11:10] <mikeday> it's an IETF term
  24. # [11:10] <mikeday> CAN, MAY, SHOULD, MUST, and VERBOTEN
  25. # [11:10] <mikeday> I kid.
  26. # [11:11] <annevk> :p
  27. # [11:12] <mikeday> but seriously, who in their right mind would use it for bits over the wire?
  28. # [11:12] <mikeday> I mean, you might use it as an in-memory representation, perhaps.
  29. # [11:12] <mikeday> but sending it over TCP/IP is just nuts
  30. # [11:12] <annevk> in-memory people use UTF-16
  31. # [11:13] <mikeday> well, we use UTF-8
  32. # [11:13] <mikeday> but some people do use UTF-32, if they use C with wchar == int
  33. # [11:13] <mikeday> so it's not entirely unheard of.
  34. # [11:14] <mikeday> but no one uses it for web pages, nor should they, so BAN IT :)
  35. # [11:14] <annevk> isn't UTF-16 way easier to traverse over the characters without having to check them each?
  36. # [11:14] <mikeday> you still have surrogates in UTF-16
  37. # [11:15] <mikeday> it depends what you're doing with the characters
  38. # [11:15] <mikeday> UTF-8 has some nice properties
  39. # [11:15] <mikeday> and if you're doing binary comparison of strings, you can just check bytes, not characters, and it's faster
  40. # [11:15] <mikeday> the choice of encoding to use for in-memory representations is quite specific to your use cases and environment.
  41. # [11:16] <mikeday> Linux tends to use UTF-8, Windows tends to use UTF-16
  42. # [11:16] <jeremyb> mac?
  43. # [11:16] <jeremyb> solaris? posix?
  44. # [11:17] * mikeday shrugs
  45. # [11:17] <mikeday> the unixy bits of MacOS X probably UTF-8, I don't know about higher layers though
  46. # [11:19] <mikeday> I'm not sure why Windows went with UTF-16, but could be related to making Microsoft Word work well in Japan
  47. # [11:19] <jeremyb> just japan or all of CJK?
  48. # [11:19] <mikeday> all of it, but no one was paying for software in China at the time :)
  49. # [11:20] <mikeday> UTF-8 isn't optimal for CJK, and using it would have been a disadvantage compared to local apps using JIS or whatever
  50. # [11:20] <mikeday> and coding up two versions of Word for each version was becoming a nuisance...
  51. # [11:20] * mikeday shrugs
  52. # [11:20] <mikeday> just a guess.
  53. # [11:21] <mikeday> For UNIX systems the weight of experience with C string processing is enough to make UTF-8 sound more attractive
  54. # [11:21] <mikeday> and who knows, maybe increased processor speed and memory make the down side less of a problem for non-Latin users
  55. # [11:22] <gsnedders> Mac OS X uses UTF-16 for Cocoa, and NFKC UTF-8 for the POSIX layer
  56. # [11:22] <mikeday> right, that's what I figured
  57. # [11:22] <gsnedders> actually, that's wrong.
  58. # [11:22] <gsnedders> it isn't NFKC…
  59. # [11:22] <mikeday> right, then I'm wrong :)
  60. # [11:23] <gsnedders> UTF-8-MAC
  61. # [11:23] <mikeday> hmm, that's not another broken UTF-8 variant is it?
  62. # [11:23] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  63. # [11:23] <gsnedders> http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1173.html
  64. # [11:23] <gsnedders> mikeday: some characters are forbidden
  65. # [11:24] <gsnedders> mikeday: and NFD
  66. # [11:24] <mikeday> so it's just a pure subset of UTF-8?
  67. # [11:24] <gsnedders> mikeday: it's really just NFD UTF-8, but it MUST be NFD. no other normalisation form is allowed.
  68. # [11:24] <mikeday> that's not so bad then
  69. # [11:25] <mikeday> not really an "encoding" in the XML/HTML sense, I suppose
  70. # [11:25] <mikeday> even if it could be used over the wire, eg. with SAMBA or NFS
  71. # [11:27] <gsnedders> UTF-8 NFD is used for FS, UTF-16 is used for Core Foundation, and I don't know what else is allowed where
  72. # [11:28] <mikeday> we use UTF-8 during font enumeration via ATS
  73. # [11:29] <gsnedders> Carbon, I think, uses UTF-8
  74. # [11:30] <mikeday> do you have an opinion on the question of forbidding UTF-32 from HTML? :)
  75. # [11:30] <gsnedders> mikeday: see my email
  76. # [11:30] * mikeday checks
  77. # [11:30] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  78. # [11:30] <gsnedders> <http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-May/011330.html>
  79. # [11:30] <mikeday> true, the implementors burden is not huge
  80. # [11:31] <mikeday> but I gave other reasons as well :)
  81. # [11:31] <gsnedders> Forbidding it serves no practice use.
  82. # [11:31] <mikeday> neither does allowing it
  83. # [11:32] <mikeday> which is in effect compelling user agents to support it, or risk appearing non-compliant,
  84. # [11:32] <mikeday> even if the spec technically doesn't require them to support it
  85. # [11:32] <gsnedders> If we start off by accepting any character set is allowed, what advantages does banning it give us, and what disadvantages do we have?
  86. # [11:32] <mikeday> it also makes it look as if using UTF-32 for web pages is not an insane thing to do :)
  87. # [11:33] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9b32.l.pppool.de)
  88. # [11:33] <annevk> mikeday, last I heard implementing it is not that difficult...
  89. # [11:33] <gsnedders> but they're no more compelled to support it than any other of the many encodings registered
  90. # [11:33] <gsnedders> annevk: it's _VERY_ easy to implement
  91. # [11:34] <mikeday> annevk, how about implementing it *correctly* :P
  92. # [11:34] <gsnedders> mikeday: still _VERY_ easy
  93. # [11:35] <annevk> mikeday, you implement a very slick C parser for HTML and I'll add the UTF-32 support :p
  94. # [11:35] <annevk> (with very slick I also mean fast and such :) )
  95. # [11:35] <mikeday> the HTML5 spec also provides two BOMs for UTF-32, while the XML spec suggests 4, including unusual byte orders
  96. # [11:36] <annevk> Prolly copied from some implementation...
  97. # [11:37] <jeremyb> what's a BOM?
  98. # [11:37] <annevk> byte order mark
  99. # [11:37] <mikeday> better to say that if UTF-32 is used, it should be specified by name, not automagically identified by BOM
  100. # [11:37] <jeremyb> ahh
  101. # [11:37] <gsnedders> most implementations will have some method to create characters in the internal representation of the characters from a unicode code-point, and then you can just read it from a BE/LE stream
  102. # [11:37] <gsnedders> mikeday: UTF-32 is unclear in name, can be BE or LE
  103. # [11:37] <mikeday> as FE FF 00 00 is almost certainly UTF-16 with a null character, not UTF-32
  104. # [11:38] <gsnedders> U+00 is disallowed in HTML
  105. # [11:38] <gsnedders> converted to the code replacement point in the input stream
  106. # [11:38] <annevk> jeremyb, it is an optional set of bytes at the start of a byte stream that identifies how to interpret the rest of the stream
  107. # [11:38] <mikeday> yes, but in practice I bet it's more common to find pages with nulls than pages using UTF-32
  108. # [11:39] <gsnedders> mikeday: I'd bet otherwise :P
  109. # [11:39] <mikeday> especially pages generated by CGI or whatever
  110. # [11:39] <mikeday> really?? have you ever seen a page written in UTF-32? Or are you writing one right now? :)
  111. # [11:39] <jeremyb> annevk: right... this is processor dependant, right?
  112. # [11:40] <gsnedders> mikeday: I've seen pages with U+00 and UTF-32 pages. I think the latter would be more common
  113. # [11:40] <annevk> jeremyb, I'm not sure I understand that question
  114. # [11:40] <gsnedders> jeremyb: the order of the bytes of the BOM shows whether it is big/little/middle endian
  115. # [11:40] <gsnedders> jeremyb: (as I assume you are referring to endianness)
  116. # [11:40] <mikeday> gsnedders, oh, I've only seen the former, never the latter. Have to ask Hixie to check the google cache for a definitive resolution on this one, I guess :)
  117. # [11:40] <gsnedders> mikeday: most probably.
  118. # [11:40] <jeremyb> never heard of middle before. yes i was talking about endianness
  119. # [11:41] <gsnedders> mikeday: more to the point, how many UTF-16 docs start with BOM then U+00
  120. # [11:41] <mikeday> true, that must narrow it down somewhat :)
  121. # [11:41] <gsnedders> jeremyb: middle is rare nowadays, but exists. more common in other subject matters (like middle endian dates, which start with the month)
  122. # [11:41] <mikeday> as not many people use UTF-16 on the web either :)
  123. # [11:41] * jeremyb supposes that he should read up on endianness
  124. # [11:42] <gsnedders> sometimes I feels odd telling people such things knowing that almost certainly everyone here is older than me :P
  125. # [11:42] * jeremyb avoids middle endian dates
  126. # [11:42] <mikeday> dates could do with a BOM as well
  127. # [11:42] <jeremyb> how old are you?
  128. # [11:42] * gsnedders had to use little endian dates in his exam
  129. # [11:42] <gsnedders> jeremyb: 15
  130. # [11:42] <mikeday> sometimes it's hard to tell, eg. with 02/03/04
  131. # [11:42] <gsnedders> *exams
  132. # [11:43] * mikeday is now known as mikeday|away
  133. # [11:43] <gsnedders> mikeday: HAH! D/M/Y as the first char?
  134. # [11:44] <jeremyb> gsnedders: i know how you feel although i'm not quite that young
  135. # [11:44] <gsnedders> jeremyb: I've been around here since I was… 13 maybe?
  136. # [11:45] <gsnedders> but near my 14th birthday
  137. # [11:46] <jeremyb> you've been on IRC longer than i have!
  138. # [11:47] <gsnedders> Oh, I've in IRC longer.
  139. # [11:47] <gsnedders> just nowhere near WHATWG
  140. # [11:47] <gsnedders> though mainly all I talk about on IRC is my lust life :P
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  146. # [12:23] * mikeday|away is now known as mikeday
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  152. # [12:56] <mikeday> I noticed that Sam Ruby has made a HTML parser in... Ruby
  153. # [12:56] <annevk> at some point it'll support <ruby> too
  154. # [12:57] <mikeday> hah!
  155. # [12:57] <mikeday> that would be so awesome :)
  156. # [12:58] <mikeday> I wonder if anyone has ever tried using <ruby> equivalent to <script language="ruby">
  157. # [12:58] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8e7bf9684e99889a) (Client Quit)
  158. # [12:59] <othermaciej> we need Ruby's ruby <ruby> parser
  159. # [12:59] <mikeday> hmm, sung to the tune of "Ruby ruby"
  160. # [12:59] <mikeday> http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/dion_and_the_belmonts/ruby_baby.html
  161. # [13:01] * krijnh adds it to http://krijnhoetmer.nl/lyrics/ :+
  162. # [13:03] <Jero> http://lyrics.doheth.co.uk/songs/kaiser-chiefs/yours-truly-angry-mob/ruby.php > that one
  163. # [13:05] <mikeday> guess perl and python don't have that many songs about them
  164. # [13:07] <Jero> does Perl Jam count? >_>
  165. # [13:07] <Jero> and don't forget that Perl has its own Pokemon game
  166. # [13:11] <Jero> oh wait, that should be Pearl of course
  167. # [13:12] <annevk> Python has Monty Python
  168. # [13:12] <annevk> that should be enough
  169. # [13:14] <Jero> annevk: how's the university of utrecht?
  170. # [13:15] <annevk> I'm not there much, but it's pretty cool
  171. # [13:15] <Jero> you're doing computer science, right?
  172. # [13:16] <annevk> I'm actually doing information science
  173. # [13:16] <annevk> but I'm planning to follow all courses of computer science that seem interesting (and am already doing so)
  174. # [13:17] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("k lol plz thx bai")
  175. # [13:17] <Jero> oh wow :p
  176. # [13:18] <annevk> (I'm "skipping" this semester though. Doing a research project instead.)
  177. # [13:18] * annevk is in Oslo because of that
  178. # [13:18] <Jero> sweet
  179. # [13:19] <Jero> i'm still sort of deciding what to do next year
  180. # [13:20] * Jero also lives in the Netherlands
  181. # [13:20] * gsnedders is listening to Ruby by Kaiser Chiefs from Yours Truly, Angry Mob
  182. # [13:20] <gsnedders> that wouldn't be so scary if you weren't talking about that a few minutes ago.
  183. # [13:31] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  184. # [13:34] * Philip` wonders if it'd be interesting to make an HTML compressor, that uses all the error handling rules of HTML5 to make totally non-conforming documents that get parsed exactly the same as the original and are as small as possible
  185. # [13:37] <peepo> svgz?
  186. # [13:37] <peepo> htmlz...
  187. # [13:37] <annevk> The idea of having error handling defined is that we can modify bits of it in due course...
  188. # [13:40] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  189. # [13:40] <annevk> Although not lightly, of course...
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  192. # [13:43] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  193. # [13:49] <Jero> If there is no furthest block, ... pop all the nodes ... from the current node up to the formatting element...
  194. # [13:49] <Jero> just to be sure, that doesn't include the formatting element, right?
  195. # [13:51] <annevk> don't think so
  196. # [13:52] <annevk> heh
  197. # [13:52] <annevk> exactly 42 web forms 2 repetition tests
  198. # [13:52] <annevk> the forms dir on tc.labs.opera.com/html/ contains 224 tests
  199. # [13:55] <annevk> So I just read http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/browsers_will_treat_all_versions_of_html_as_html_5/ again. Why would changing our behavior for a new version of HTML make stuff easier for developers?
  200. # [13:55] <annevk> We'll have a new set of bugs specific to the new version and transitioning old content to HTML5 becomes harder, etc.
  201. # [13:56] <annevk> There are so many obvious problems for developers and yet they don't seem to realize them??
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  207. # [14:36] <karlUshi> python joke. cf the previous discussions
  208. # [14:36] <karlUshi> http://www.redmountainsw.com/wordpress/archives/a-joke-in-the-python-interpreter
  209. # [14:39] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-183-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  210. # [14:53] <annevk> Philip`, is it easy to modify your survey tool to check how often the adoption agency algorithm is triggered? Especially the clone node operation in it...
  211. # [14:59] <Philip`> If there's somewhere in the html5lib code where it could poke some value that I could read out again after parsing, then I guess that'd be easy enough
  212. # [15:02] <Philip`> (But "survey tool" makes it sound more impressive and useful than just being the non-representative collection of a couple of thousand pages with a parser being called on them in a loop which is all it really is :-) )
  213. # [15:08] <annevk> hehe
  214. # [15:08] <annevk> I think you'd have to make such a value yourself
  215. # [15:13] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-199.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  216. # [15:14] <Jero> 6. Let a bookmark note the position of the formatting element in the list of active formatting elements...
  217. # [15:14] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-199.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  218. # [15:14] <Jero> hmm, I guess that line should be rephrased a little
  219. # [15:14] <Jero> (step 6 of the adoption agency)
  220. # [15:16] <Jero> oh nvm, i understand it now, note is used as a verb here
  221. # [15:27] <Philip`> annevk: I ought to have time this afternoon to try looking at that
  222. # [15:29] <annevk> cool
  223. # [15:29] <annevk> Jero, btw, I'd aim for making a full parser at first and create filtering tools for it later
  224. # [15:30] <annevk> Jero, that makes it more usable for other people who want to use it where support for <blah> and <link> is important
  225. # [15:30] <Jero> yeah, that's sort of what i'm doing now
  226. # [15:30] <annevk> cool :)
  227. # [15:30] <Jero> but first i need the adoption agency working properly
  228. # [15:33] <Philip`> It seems worrying that the adoption agency sometimes cuts its children into multiple pieces
  229. # [15:34] <annevk> it clones them
  230. # [15:34] <annevk> and distributes them among parents afterwards
  231. # [15:35] <Philip`> But the content of the original tags gets split apart and spread between all the clones
  232. # [15:36] <Philip`> I'm sure that kind of thing can't be legal
  233. # [15:37] <annevk> :p
  234. # [15:45] <gsnedders> I need to do something about the tree construction… but probably better to get the other stuff working fix :P
  235. # [15:45] <gsnedders> *first
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  237. # [15:49] <Jero> where in the algorithm do P elements close elements such as A and B?
  238. # [15:49] <annevk> why would <p> close them?
  239. # [15:50] <annevk> <a><p>test</p></a> is legal
  240. # [15:50] <Jero> or really, sweet
  241. # [15:50] <annevk> well, "legal"
  242. # [15:50] <annevk> <b><p>test</p></b> should work too
  243. # [15:50] <Jero> yeah, i know what you mean :p
  244. # [15:51] <annevk> <b><p>test</b></p> makes things interesting...
  245. # [15:53] <Jero> hmm, but when I look at the testcase with the code "<a><p>X<a>Y</a>Z</p></a>" in http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/tests/tree-construction/tests1.dat , the parser closes the first A element when it sees the P element
  246. # [15:53] <annevk> you make incorrect assumptions
  247. # [15:54] <annevk> the magic happens the moment you hit the second <a>
  248. # [15:54] <annevk> not when you hit <p>
  249. # [15:54] <Jero> ah
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  255. # [16:16] * annevk curses the internal subset
  256. # [16:23] <annevk> FWIW: We won't drop support for UTF-32
  257. # [16:27] <zcorpan_> annevk: why not?
  258. # [16:27] <annevk> There's no good reason not to support it
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  267. # [17:32] <annevk> http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2007/05/xtech_2007/
  268. # [17:39] <Dashiva> "other interface languages like MXML and ZUL"
  269. # [17:40] <annevk> yeah...
  270. # [17:45] <Philip`> annevk: Which clone node operation do you mean? On 2274 pages, I see the clone in step 7.5 being called at least once on 5 pages, and the one in step 9 on 149 pages
  271. # [17:56] <annevk> can you count how many times they are being hit?
  272. # [17:59] <Philip`> The 7.5 one was 7 times, the 9 one was 691 times
  273. # [18:01] <Philip`> (Worst offender: http://www.ed.gov/parents/needs/speced/iepguide/index.html which runs that step 62 times)
  274. # [18:02] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  275. # [18:04] <Philip`> (I assume it's the stuff like "<i><b><p>Parents</b></i> are key members of the IEP team.")
  276. # [18:12] <annevk> ouch
  277. # [18:13] <annevk> that's a lot of additional node
  278. # [18:13] <annevk> s
  279. # [18:14] <annevk> although it's less than one node per page extra on average
  280. # [18:14] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  281. # [18:14] <annevk> would be nice if Hixie could test this
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  286. # [18:27] <zcorpan_> not much has been posted at the whatwg blog lately
  287. # [18:31] <Dashiva> Except those spam posts :)
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  307. # [20:07] * weinigLap_ is now known as weinigLap
  308. # [20:20] * annevk goes to order a t-shirt
  309. # [20:21] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
  310. # [20:24] <zcorpan_> annevk: a black one or a white one? :)
  311. # [20:26] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  312. # [20:26] <annevk> black
  313. # [20:26] <annevk> 25 dollars
  314. # [20:27] <annevk> better be good
  315. # [20:27] <annevk> and it better arrives next week...
  316. # [20:27] <zcorpan_> a 5 > 2 t-shirt?
  317. # [20:27] <annevk> (I guess that's unlikely)
  318. # [20:27] <annevk> yeah
  319. # [20:28] <annevk> including shipping cost
  320. # [20:28] <zcorpan_> i got mine after 3 days iirc
  321. # [20:28] <annevk> sounds good
  322. # [20:28] <annevk> that means I can actually wear it when I'm speaking
  323. # [20:28] <annevk> XML5: 47 DOCTYPE tokenizer states and 71 in total
  324. # [20:29] <Dashiva> How about just... pretending there's no such thing
  325. # [20:29] <Dashiva> Go bogus comment immediately
  326. # [20:29] <annevk> Ubuntu: doesn't install on a T60 Widescreen
  327. # [20:29] <Dashiva> Would that destroy roundtripping, maybe
  328. # [20:30] <annevk> Would destroy default attribute values
  329. # [20:30] <annevk> Would also destroy entities...
  330. # [20:30] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  331. # [20:30] <Dashiva> No, once you see <!doctype I mean
  332. # [20:31] <Dashiva> Oh wait, nm. Silly
  333. # [20:34] <annevk> zcorpan_, when is your presentation?
  334. # [20:35] <zcorpan_> wednesday
  335. # [20:35] <annevk> you'll put it online at some point?
  336. # [20:35] <zcorpan_> yeah
  337. # [20:35] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/html5-geekmeet.html
  338. # [20:36] <annevk> oh, cool
  339. # [20:36] * annevk looks
  340. # [20:36] <zcorpan_> some things are commented out
  341. # [20:36] <annevk> lang=sv
  342. # [20:36] <annevk> ah
  343. # [20:36] <zcorpan_> i'll expand on canvas and wf2 too
  344. # [20:36] <zcorpan_> though i don't know much about canvas :|
  345. # [20:37] <annevk> that looks quite neat
  346. # [20:37] <zcorpan_> thanks
  347. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> i might translate the slides to english afterwards
  348. # [20:38] <annevk> my next presentation will be "inspired" by yours ;)
  349. # [20:38] <Lfe> zcorpan_: where is geekmet this wednesday? stockholm?
  350. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> Lfe: yeah
  351. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/04/26/geek-meet-may-2007-html-5-and-xhtml/
  352. # [20:39] <Lfe> darn, missed that one :(
  353. # [20:39] <annevk> zcorpan_, so Opera actually parses this HTML5 crap correctly? :)
  354. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> annevk: yep :)
  355. # [20:39] * annevk used XHTML5 so far to avoid the issue
  356. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> Lfe: it's not too late to sign up
  357. # [20:41] <zcorpan_> annevk: omitting optional tags in combination with the new tags doesn't quite work
  358. # [20:41] <annevk> yeah ok
  359. # [20:41] <zcorpan_> but otherwise it works fine
  360. # [20:41] <zcorpan_> <datalist><option></datalist> for instance (think i've filed a bug about that one)
  361. # [20:42] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com)
  362. # [20:42] <annevk> yeah
  363. # [20:42] <annevk> note that the parsing algorithm doesn't define stuff like that so far...
  364. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> right
  365. # [20:44] <annevk> (not sure who I'm talking to here, everybody knows that :) )
  366. # [20:46] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@85-210-7-238.dsl.pipex.com)
  367. # [20:46] <zcorpan_> i'm supposed to explain how <canvas> works. i need some help with that :)
  368. # [20:46] <Lfe> zcorpan_: true, but i don't live there.. so kinda hairy to make all the arrangements :(
  369. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> Lfe: where do you live?
  370. # [20:47] <Lfe> zcorpan_: kalmar
  371. # [20:47] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.208)
  372. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> ok
  373. # [20:48] <annevk> zcorpan_, you select the element, get the 2d context on it and draw stuff
  374. # [20:49] * zcorpan_ makes notes
  375. # [20:49] <annevk> search for <canvas in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007May/att-0063/html5-short.xml
  376. # [20:50] <zcorpan_> annevk: thanks
  377. # [20:50] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Apr/att-0036/html5.xml has a simple drawing application using <canvas>
  378. # [20:51] <annevk> (although you can't actually see it in non-presentation mode)
  379. # [20:51] <zcorpan_> yup. i was thinking of showing some cool canvas demos at the presentation, though i won't embed them in the actual presentation
  380. # [20:51] <zcorpan_> probably just link to them and switch between tabs
  381. # [20:52] <annevk> for my next presentation I'd like to show the doom game
  382. # [20:52] <zcorpan_> yeah
  383. # [20:53] <annevk> btw, when will you start?
  384. # [20:53] <annevk> not until July or earlier?
  385. # [20:53] <zcorpan_> at opera?
  386. # [20:53] <zcorpan_> week 25
  387. # [20:53] <annevk> when is that? :)
  388. # [20:54] <zcorpan_> http://vecka.nu/
  389. # [20:54] <annevk> ok, so around the 20th of June
  390. # [20:54] <zcorpan_> 18 june
  391. # [20:54] <zcorpan_> yeah
  392. # [20:54] <annevk> cool
  393. # [20:54] <Lfe> i made a widget for that some months ago, it's insane how hard it is to find the current week num :)
  394. # [20:55] <annevk> maybe I should try to go to Sweden for a week or so
  395. # [20:55] <zcorpan_> i'll probably quit studying after the summer and start to work instead
  396. # [20:55] <zcorpan_> annevk: when?
  397. # [20:55] <annevk> when you're around, of course :)
  398. # [20:56] <annevk> i meant to the Linkoping office
  399. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> ok
  400. # [20:56] <annevk> or will you go to Oslo?
  401. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> no
  402. # [20:56] <annevk> right
  403. # [20:57] <zcorpan_> i'll be in linköping the first week i think, then i'll only be there occasionally
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  405. # [20:57] <annevk> ah ok
  406. # [20:58] <hasather> annevk: will you be in Oslo most of the summer?
  407. # [20:58] <zcorpan_> would be cool to meet, then i can practice my dutch a bit too :)
  408. # [20:59] <annevk> hasather, yeah, sort of
  409. # [20:59] <annevk> hasather, as in, when I'm not travelling I'll be in Oslo
  410. # [20:59] * annevk is in Oslo right now, fwiw
  411. # [21:00] <hasather> ok, I'll start June 11th
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  416. # [21:16] <hasather> annevk: what kind of problems did you have with Ubuntu btw? Works nicely on my Z60m, but I don't know how much differs between them
  417. # [21:21] * Joins: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-c9c061333421f003)
  418. # [21:24] <Philip`> Someone just needs to implement an HTML5 parser in JavaScript, and then you could do something like in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html to enable the new parsing algorithm in legacy browsers
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  425. # [21:51] * zcorpan_ ponders whether the html5 spec should distinguish between "element" and "element type"
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  428. # [21:55] <hasather> zcorpan_: preferrably, but 'element' is probably clear enough. That's what most people use to refer to both terms
  429. # [21:56] <zcorpan_> yeah. i guess it isn't really ambiguous in context
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The end :)