/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:56] <zcorpan_> hm, how do we solve the gmail problem of not being able to use real links because of Referer? use a new attribute <a secrethref="">?
  12. # [00:57] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: maybe just a noreferrer attribute?
  13. # [00:57] <othermaciej> I would guess only <a> needs it
  14. # [00:57] <Hixie> and <img>
  15. # [00:57] <othermaciej> for <script> or <img> it could be a security issue to skip referrer
  16. # [00:58] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: but then legacy UAs would still send the Referer
  17. # [00:58] <othermaciej> for <img> you clearly don't want it, since it would make hotlinking undetectable
  18. # [00:58] <Hixie> <img> in an HTML e-mail shouldn't send Referer headers
  19. # [00:58] <Hixie> (welcome to conflicting requirements)
  20. # [00:58] <othermaciej> <img> to an external resource in HTML e-mail shouldn't display by default, and possibly not at all
  21. # [00:59] <othermaciej> just pinging the server back at all is a privacy concern
  22. # [00:59] <Hixie> not by default, sure
  23. # [00:59] <othermaciej> Referer doesn't really add much privacy violation beyond just loading the <img>
  24. # [00:59] <Hixie> depends what's in the url
  25. # [01:01] <othermaciej> put it this way, someone who isn't out to violate your privacy would likely embed the image rather than making it an external reference, since in most mail clients these days you have to go out of your way to do the latter; and if they are out to violate your privacy, they could do much worse by careful URL design than with Referer
  26. # [01:02] <Hixie> i don't deny any of that
  27. # [01:02] <Hixie> i'm just saying there are also requests for not passing referrers for <img>s
  28. # [01:02] <Hixie> whether we satisfy those requests or not is another question
  29. # [01:02] <zcorpan_> <a>link text <href>http://...</href></a> -- that would be backwards compatible
  30. # [01:03] <Hixie> kinda
  31. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> you could script that for legacy UAs to fake the link
  32. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> or just leave it and let the user copy the URL
  33. # [01:04] <Hixie> you could script the other one too
  34. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> yeah, but the user wouldn't know the URL without script
  35. # [01:06] <zcorpan_> how does gmail handle links in its "html basic" version?
  36. # [01:06] <Hixie> no i mean <a href="..." noreferer> could be scripted
  37. # [01:06] <Hixie> dunno, try it
  38. # [01:06] <zcorpan_> yeah but then legacy UA would still send Referer... isn't that an issue?
  39. # [01:08] <zcorpan_> gmail html basic has plain links
  40. # [01:08] <zcorpan_> <a href="..." target="_blank">
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  44. # [01:16] <Hixie> zcorpan_: so i guess at least for gmail it's not an issue
  45. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> yeah
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  49. # [01:20] <zcorpan_> <input title="name"type="text"> that fails wcag 2.0 because of lack of whitespace between the attributes
  50. # [01:21] <Hixie> o_O
  51. # [01:21] <zcorpan_> see 4.1.1 in http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/
  52. # [01:29] <zcorpan_> search for "SCR24: Using script to open a new window" to find the accessible version of target="_blank"
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  55. # [01:32] <zcorpan_> font-size must also be specified with %, apparently
  56. # [01:33] <zcorpan_> or am i misreading the document? the next technique contradicts that
  57. # [01:34] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: wait, why is that an accessibility issue?
  58. # [01:35] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: because ie6 can't change the text size if you specify "absolute" units
  59. # [01:35] <othermaciej> not the % thing, the lack of whitespace between attributes
  60. # [01:35] <zcorpan_> oh
  61. # [01:36] <zcorpan_> yeah, dunno
  62. # [01:36] <zcorpan_> the document also says that <p>foo<p>bar</p> in XHTML is a fail, because it is "unclear" whether the second paragraph is a child or a sibling to the first
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  68. # [01:46] <othermaciej> so they're assuming XHTML will be processed with an error-correcting html parser?
  69. # [01:46] <zcorpan_> i have no clue
  70. # [01:47] <zcorpan_> in html, it is not unclear at all. in xml, it's not unclear at all either
  71. # [01:47] <othermaciej> it's unclear if you don't know what parser will be used
  72. # [01:47] <othermaciej> but then they could just say that
  73. # [01:47] <zcorpan_> indeed
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  75. # [01:49] <zcorpan_> if that's what they meant, then it's equally unclear how <noscript> will be parsed
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  78. # [02:04] <bewest> is there a list of elements categorized by block/inline level?
  79. # [02:06] <zcorpan_> don't think so
  80. # [02:12] <webben> How does the HTML5 table algorithm prevent a <th scope="rowgroup"> from being part of a <th scope=col">?
  81. # [02:19] <zcorpan_> webben: i don't understand the question
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  83. # [02:21] <webben> zcorpan_: here's an example from something I'm working on. First a simple table with rows and cols: http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/16/index.html
  84. # [02:21] <webben> 2nd the same thing, but organized into rowgroups http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/16/sector.html
  85. # [02:21] <webben> now in the first instance, scope="col" for the top headers works for all the row headers
  86. # [02:22] <webben> but this can't work in the second instance since the sectors are in that column as per HTML4 spec
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  88. # [02:24] <zcorpan_> i still don't understand the problem
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  90. # [02:26] <zcorpan_> i wonder if it's possible to implement the html5 table algorithm with JS, so that when you hover a data cell, its header cells are highlighted, and when you hover a table cell, its data cells are highlighted
  91. # [02:26] <zcorpan_> that would be really useful
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  93. # [02:27] <zcorpan_> s/table cell/header cell/
  94. # [02:27] <webben> Hmm. Well if I understand the HTML4 spec correctly, the sector th's are in the first column. Therefore if you have a th with scope="col" it would technically imply itself to be a header for the sector th's.
  95. # [02:27] <webben> zcorpan_: well, we've got that for headers/ids but not for scope yet
  96. # [02:27] <webben> (Firefox Accessibility Extension)
  97. # [02:28] <webben> it is rather useful :)
  98. # [02:28] <zcorpan_> oh, didn't know about it
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  100. # [02:28] <webben> http://firefox.cita.uiuc.edu/ ... that one, get the beta version. Navigation menu, Data tables.
  101. # [02:28] <webben> dunno why scope doesn't work with it though
  102. # [02:29] <webben> maybe firefox ignores it
  103. # [02:29] <webben> not sure
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  105. # [02:29] <webben> or maybe it's because it's primarily a testing tool and only secondarily a user tool
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  107. # [02:30] <zcorpan_> maybe firefox ignores both of headers and scope, but headers is easier to implement with the extension
  108. # [02:32] <webben> Actually I guess since it will be using the DOM, what FF does with headers and scope is irrelevant.
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  110. # [02:32] <zcorpan_> yeah
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  113. # [02:35] <othermaciej> webben: does the HTML5 table algorithm allow headers to have headers?
  114. # [02:36] <webben> othermaciej: If it doesn't, then that's even more problematic. Seeing as in real tables, headers often have headers.
  115. # [02:36] <webben> othermaciej: i agree the draft seems unclear on that point ... i was wondering it myself
  116. # [02:36] <webben> if HTML5 doesn't allow th to have headers than the attrib should be non-conforming for th
  117. # [02:36] <zcorpan_> what attribute?
  118. # [02:37] <webben> HTML4 clearly does allow th to have headers
  119. # [02:37] <zcorpan_> "clearly"?
  120. # [02:37] <webben> oh wait... yeah good point it can't do it by disallowing headers since it doesn't have headers
  121. # [02:37] <webben> zcorpan_: well yeah ... both th and td have headers attribute
  122. # [02:38] <webben> they could easily have made the headers attrib non-conforming for th
  123. # [02:38] <zcorpan_> webben: right. it was more convenient to write the DTD in that way... :P
  124. # [02:38] * zcorpan_ doesn't think html4 is clear about this at all
  125. # [02:38] <zcorpan_> or anything for that matter
  126. # [02:39] <webben> Hmm. I can't really believe that including headers attribute for th was for shortening the length of DTD.
  127. # [02:39] <zcorpan_> i don't know the rationale
  128. # [02:40] <webben> interesting the example in 11.4.1 shows use of the scope attrib with td
  129. # [02:40] <webben> the spec explains: "Although the first cell in each row contains data, not header information, the scope attribute makes the data cell behave like a row header cell. This allows speech synthesizers to provide the relevant course name upon request or to state it immediately before each cell's content."
  130. # [02:41] <zcorpan_> yeah, not sure if having cells act as both data cells and header cells is a good thing or not
  131. # [02:41] <webben> I guess the important thing is to devise ways of clearly expressing relationships between data.
  132. # [02:42] <webben> and not let the header/non-header thing devolve into an even more presentational distinction
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  156. # [05:10] <Hixie> hm
  157. # [05:10] <Hixie> someone should post a blog entry about our progress with w3c
  158. # [05:10] <Hixie> any volunteers? :-)
  159. # [05:15] <jcgregorio> working on it right now :)
  160. # [05:16] <Hixie> sweet
  161. # [05:16] <jcgregorio> don't know which title to use,
  162. # [05:16] <jcgregorio> "jaw drop", or "OMG WTF?!?!"
  163. # [05:17] <Hixie> i recommend staying away from too much sarcasm ;-)
  164. # [05:18] <jcgregorio> heh, agreed.
  165. # [05:26] <jcgregorio> http://bitworking.org/news/178/The-W3C-s-next-generation-HTML-specification
  166. # [05:27] <Hixie> oh i meant on the whatwg blog :-)
  167. # [05:28] <Hixie> i love the first comment on http://bitworking.org/news/3270_Redux
  168. # [05:31] <jcgregorio> yeah, Dare, ever the optimist
  169. # [05:32] <jcgregorio> last comment is good too, I forgot that this was around the time that the w3c was angling for some Atom love...
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  172. # [05:51] <jruderman> h3h!
  173. # [05:51] <h3h> hey
  174. # [05:52] <h3h> how goes it?
  175. # [05:57] <jruderman> it's intern season here at mozilla
  176. # [05:57] <jruderman> fun times
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  183. # [07:19] <Hixie> i'm very good at writing long run-on sentences in specs
  184. # [07:19] <Hixie> that's sad, since that's a bad thing.
  185. # [07:19] <othermaciej> you are indeed
  186. # [07:20] <othermaciej> I'll do my best to complain when I get the chance
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  192. # [07:43] <zcorpan_> anyone know what "malformed" would be in swedish?
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  225. # [11:21] <annevk> hasather, something goes wrong with partition making
  226. # [11:21] <annevk> hasather, it also didn't get the resolution right, but that was fixable
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  228. # [11:24] <annevk> Documents such as "<!DOCTYPE html [ <!ENTITY name '&name;x'> ]><html>&name;</html>" are now parsed...
  229. # [11:24] <annevk> You end up with <html>xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</html>
  230. # [11:24] <annevk> (The loop limit is 16.)
  231. # [11:25] <Dashiva> So no billions then
  232. # [11:25] <annevk> I thought it would be better to prevent that right from the start :-)
  233. # [11:28] <Lachy> why allow it to loop at all? Why not prevent any recursion, so it would only output 1 x
  234. # [11:28] <hasather> annevk: ok. Have a look at this and see if it's any help: http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/Installing_Ubuntu_6.10_(Edgy_Eft)_on_a_ThinkPad_T60 (that site is great for ThinkPad users btw)
  235. # [11:29] <annevk> Lachy, because there's tons of ways to do looping and this way it catches all of them
  236. # [11:29] <annevk> Lachy, it also prevents the billion laughs attack etc.
  237. # [11:32] <Lachy> what's the billion laughs attack?
  238. # [11:32] <Dashiva> Uses looping entities to generate a document with a billion 'laugh'
  239. # [11:33] <Dashiva> One entity generates two, which each generate two, etc
  240. # [11:33] <Dashiva> *non-looping
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  244. # [11:59] <gsnedders> bleh. rss-public is trying to work out Dave Winer's intent of a statement in RSS 2.0, for the purposes of clarifying the spec
  245. # [11:59] <annevk> lol
  246. # [12:00] <annevk> looking at specs is so the wrong way to solve actual problems (most of the time)
  247. # [12:00] <gsnedders> "A RSS feed may contain elements not described on this page, only if those elements are defined in a namespace." — are you allowed namespaced attributes on core elements?
  248. # [12:00] <Dashiva> And the RSS "specs" make HTML 4.01 look well-defined
  249. # [12:01] <annevk> Something with my entities stuff is messed up
  250. # [12:01] <annevk> bah
  251. # [12:01] <gsnedders> Rogers Cadenhead has cited several other things that Dave Winer said on the subject matter, which say yes in answer to that question.
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  253. # [12:17] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  254. # [12:18] <mpt> ooh, that's like constitutional interpretation
  255. # [12:18] <mpt> Going just by the spec = strict constructionist
  256. # [12:18] <mpt> Researching Dave's other writings = original intent
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  259. # [12:21] <mpt> But one thing I learnt in legal history class is that for interpretive purposes, you shouldn't rely on the writings of any legal authority until they've died
  260. # [12:21] <mpt> because if they're still alive, they might change their mind
  261. # [12:21] <mikeday> hmm, I hope you're not suggesting killing Hixie after HTML5 goes Rec :)
  262. # [12:22] <mpt> No, I'm suggesting that we go by what the spec says rather than by what he posts elsewhere
  263. # [12:23] <mpt> though of course he's free to update the spec :-)
  264. # [12:23] <mikeday> you must admit, it would make a good crime thriller episode if spec authors mysteriously started disappearing :)
  265. # [12:23] <mpt> This principle is also known as "I would also like to thank Ian Hickson for reminding the world that the things I write in this weblog are not spec text."
  266. # [12:23] <gsnedders> mpt: even if the writings both predate and postdate (is that a word?) the spec?
  267. # [12:23] <mpt> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law
  268. # [12:24] <gsnedders> mpt: and it is explicitly stated that that was the intent of the spec?
  269. # [12:24] <mpt> gsnedders, yes, even so.
  270. # [12:25] <mpt> If the spec needs updating, update it.
  271. # [12:25] <mpt> Or produce errata, and say "we comply with spec X with errata Y".
  272. # [12:26] <gsnedders> mpt: that's the issue — are they just updating the spec in such a way it is merely a clarification?
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  274. # [12:27] <mpt> I don't really care about this particular example
  275. # [12:27] <mpt> RSS 2.0 is such a disaster zone I want to avoid thinking about it
  276. # [12:28] <gsnedders> it's used in the real world. as implementors, we need to implement it
  277. # [12:28] <gsnedders> (and fix the spec)
  278. # [12:28] <mikeday> whatwg needs to fix RSS?
  279. # [12:29] <gsnedders> mikeday: no, the rss-board are already doing so
  280. # [12:29] <gsnedders> http://www.rssboard.org/rss-draft-1
  281. # [12:29] <mpt> Be careful throwing around words like "we" :-)
  282. # [12:30] <mikeday> hmm, not really a problem then, eh?
  283. # [12:30] <gsnedders> mikeday: oh, there are problems. see the mailing list. see real world feeds, etc.
  284. # [12:30] <mikeday> not really a problem for #whatwg then, I meant :)
  285. # [12:31] <gsnedders> true, but there are others here who implement RSS :P
  286. # [12:32] <mikeday> maybe it would have been easier if RSS has used HTML based markup instead of trying to corrupt XML
  287. # [12:33] <gsnedders> that's not the issue with RSS, the issue is how vague the spec is
  288. # [12:33] <Dashiva> I wouldn't mind burying RSS in favor of Atom
  289. # [12:34] <gsnedders> like people who implement real XHTML, to be relevant in the real world they need to implement HTML too
  290. # [12:35] <mikeday> hrmph, if only that weren't so.
  291. # [12:35] <mikeday> it's certainly the way we're going
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  304. # [15:13] <Dashiva> Grar
  305. # [15:13] <Dashiva> My inner calm is upset by html60
  306. # [15:16] <Philip`> I'm not positive that I like the idea of eleding sag seributes in a form
  307. # [15:18] <Philip`> I think the names need more X in them before they'll catch on
  308. # [15:21] <zcorpan_> XSeribute
  309. # [15:24] <annevk> Dashiva, I are agree
  310. # [15:26] <zcorpan_> is it can be foods tiem now?
  311. # [15:26] * annevk plays with Ubuntu
  312. # [15:29] <zcorpan_> http://www.nnseek.com/e/microsoft.public.windowsmedia/new_updated_wmp11_plug_in_for_other_third_party_br_77036744t.html
  313. # [15:31] * Philip` wonders what was in the "relies on the stuff" phrase before presumably being stripped out as disallowed HTML
  314. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> <script for="" event="'>
  315. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> http://forums.techarena.in/showthread.php?p=2551897
  316. # [15:33] <Philip`> Aha
  317. # [15:46] <annevk> argh
  318. # [15:48] <annevk> time to port some projects...
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  325. # [16:09] <hasather> hsivonen: in case you haven't seen: http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2007/05/fake_realtime_blog_from_xtech.html
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  350. # [17:53] <zcorpan_> am i right in saying that html5lib can emit sax parse events?
  351. # [17:53] <annevk-t60> yeah, sort of
  352. # [17:53] * annevk-t60 doesn't recall the details
  353. # [17:54] <zcorpan_> streaming?
  354. # [17:55] <annevk-t60> you can't stream html5
  355. # [17:55] <annevk-t60> well, not in the XML way
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  357. # [17:57] <zcorpan_> you can if you're drocanian about the agency thing :)
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  359. # [17:58] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/html5-geekmeet.en.html
  360. # [17:59] <zcorpan_> translated it
  361. # [18:02] <annevk-t60> "definierad"
  362. # [18:02] <zcorpan_> oops
  363. # [18:03] <zcorpan_> fixed
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  365. # [18:04] <Philip`> The boilerplate example could drop the / in <meta charset="utf-8" />
  366. # [18:04] <zcorpan_> yeah
  367. # [18:05] <zcorpan_> though there's no benefit in dropping it, other than saving 2 bytes
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  371. # [18:18] <zcorpan_> other comments? :)
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  403. # [19:56] <Philip`> Optimising <canvas> code seems a bit of a pain - different implementations have very different performance characteristics :-(
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  407. # [19:58] <Philip`> drawImage(img, <some scaling>) is twice as fast as drawImage(canvas, ...) in Firefox 3, and ~20% faster in FF2, but the latter is ~50% faster than the former in Opera
  408. # [19:59] <Philip`> and drawImage(img, <no scaling>) is about sixty times faster in FF3 than it was in FF2
  409. # [20:00] <Philip`> and all these numbers are probably totally different in Safari, and on other platforms
  410. # [20:00] <Philip`> and I can't think of any way to handle the differences, without resorting to browser-sniffing and a table of preferences :-(
  411. # [20:02] <zcorpan_> ah, browser sniffing
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  432. # [22:03] <jgraham> zcorpan_: html5lib has a dom2sax converter. Basically you use the dom treebuilder and then call treebuilders.dom.dom2sax on the resulting tree. So it's not true streaming (because the algorithm as specced doesn't allow for that). hsivonen has some interesting thoughts on a fast-as-possible streaming implementation
  433. # [22:03] <jgraham> n.b. that function call is from memory...
  434. # [22:04] <zcorpan_> jgraham: ok
  435. # [22:07] * zcorpan_ updated his slides
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  439. # [22:27] <Hixie> Philip`: the best way to handle it is not optimising at all, and just rely on browser vendors to make things faster
  440. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> Hixie: you have any comments for my slides for my presentation tomorrow? http://simon.html5.org/presentations/html5-geekmeet.en
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  444. # [22:42] * Hixie loojs
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  446. # [22:44] <othermaciej> what does it mean "to looj"?
  447. # [22:44] <Jero> zcorpan_: minor detail, but the charset attribute in the second "text/html: boilerplate" slide has the wrong color
  448. # [22:45] <Hixie> zcorpan_: the audio interface changed quite a bit since opera implemented it
  449. # [22:47] <Hixie> the google suggest example needs to have the value URI escaped
  450. # [22:47] <Hixie> also the following parts of the boilerplate are optional:
  451. # [22:47] <Hixie> <html>
  452. # [22:47] <Hixie> <head>
  453. # [22:47] <Hixie> <meta charset="utf-8" />
  454. # [22:48] <Hixie> looks fine
  455. # [22:48] <Hixie> what's your audience?
  456. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> mostly people who work with creating web sites
  457. # [22:49] <Hixie> k
  458. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> Jero: it's the same as the first, just in the process of becoming shorter... ;)
  459. # [22:52] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  460. # [22:52] * Joins: weinigLap_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-6b7dcafc8bdf89fb)
  461. # [22:54] <Jero> yeah, but i thought that because of it being shorter, it became an attribute, so you might wanted to also show that in that slide
  462. # [22:54] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-255.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  463. # [22:54] <Jero> but i guess it depends on how you look at it, and it's not that big of a deal either :p
  464. # [22:55] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136)
  465. # [23:01] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  466. # [23:04] <jgraham> zcorpan: "De facto standards i HTML5" s/i/in/ I assume
  467. # [23:04] * Quits: Jero (n=Jero@d207230.upc-d.chello.nl) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]")
  468. # [23:04] <zcorpan> jgraham: yep, thanks
  469. # [23:08] <jgraham> zcorpan: <meta charset="utf-8" /> - no need for the trailing slash. Also p = html5lib.HTMLParser(tree=etree.TreeBuilder) - this has changed a bit in svn to support more elementtree implementations. Probably not worth worrying about though.
  470. # [23:09] <zcorpan> jgraham: how should the python line look like?
  471. # [23:09] * Quits: weinigLap (n=weinig@17.203.15.217) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  472. # [23:10] <jgraham> I think it should be import treebuilders; from xml.etree import ElementTree; html5lib.HTMLParser(tree=treebuilders.getTreebuilder("etree", ElementTree))
  473. # [23:10] * jgraham goes to check
  474. # [23:12] * Quits: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-ef5e05a2d65e4430)
  475. # [23:12] <jgraham> OK the full thing is
  476. # [23:12] <jgraham> import html5lib
  477. # [23:12] <jgraham> from html5lib import treebuilders
  478. # [23:13] <jgraham> import xml.etree.ElementTree as ElementTree #assuming python >= 2.5
  479. # [23:14] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  480. # [23:14] <jgraham> p = html5lib.HTMLParser(tree=treebuilders.getTreeBuilder("etree", ElementTree))
  481. # [23:14] <jgraham> elementtree = p.parse(f)
  482. # [23:14] <zcorpan> cheers
  483. # [23:16] <zcorpan> no f = open("test.html") ?
  484. # [23:20] * moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju
  485. # [23:20] <zcorpan> is it possible to linewrap between "treebuilders" and ".getTreeBuilder" ?
  486. # [23:22] <jgraham> Ah, yes, even copying and pasting I forgot the f = open("test.html")
  487. # [23:22] <jgraham> And there shouldn't be a linewrap but I think python syntax would allow one there
  488. # [23:23] <hasather> yea, it's allowed as it's inside a paranthesis
  489. # [23:23] <zcorpan> ok
  490. # [23:23] * Joins: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-2babe6d794088105)
  491. # [23:23] <jgraham> but I think it has to be after the dot
  492. # [23:24] <jgraham> No it doesn't
  493. # [23:24] <jgraham> Either side of the dot is fine
  494. # [23:24] * jgraham should know this sort of thing by now
  495. # [23:26] <zcorpan> there. i presume a minidom equivalent would be no shorter? :)
  496. # [23:27] <jgraham> minidom is a little shorter atm because we only support one DOM implementation
  497. # [23:28] <zcorpan> ok
  498. # [23:28] <zcorpan> i'll leave it as is
  499. # [23:28] <jgraham> so you can just do html5lib.HTMLParser(tree=treebuilders.getTreeBuilder("dom"))
  500. # [23:28] <jgraham> but that may change again
  501. # [23:28] <jgraham> if there is another python DOM imp[lementation we can trivially support
  502. # [23:29] <jgraham> If you have space a little more indentation on the .getTreeBuilder line would be nice
  503. # [23:31] * karlUshi wonders where the getTreeBuilder is coming from
  504. # [23:32] <zcorpan> jgraham: happy? :)
  505. # [23:32] * Quits: weinigLap_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-6b7dcafc8bdf89fb) (Remote closed the connection)
  506. # [23:32] * Joins: weinigLap (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-bc8b1335d980861d)
  507. # [23:33] <jgraham> karlUshi: It's a new (svn) feature - instead of having to know the internals of each TreeBuilder module you just call getTreeBuilder(treetype) which returns the appropriate class
  508. # [23:34] <karlUshi> which version?
  509. # [23:34] <karlUshi> ah not yet packaged
  510. # [23:34] <jgraham> for elementtree it also supports passing in an object which implements the elementtree interface so, in theory, we support all elementtree types
  511. # [23:34] <jgraham> s/types/implementations/
  512. # [23:35] <jgraham> I dunno if it's the *best* way to do what's needed but I think it's *better*
  513. # [23:36] <zcorpan> are things outside the root element included in the elementtree? or did you settle for two elementtree versions?
  514. # [23:38] <jgraham> There's a third (not talked about) parameter for getTreeBuilder fullTree which defaults to false. If fullTree is false trees which don't support stuff outside the root element (i.e. elementtree, beautiful soup (work in progress)) will just return the subtree rooted at <html>
  515. # [23:39] <jgraham> fullTree = True is needed for testing
  516. # [23:39] <zcorpan> ok
  517. # [23:39] <jgraham> but I'm not sure how much sense it makes to try and expose stuff that a tree just doesn't support
  518. # [23:40] <jgraham> So e.g. elementtree has no support for doctypes
  519. # [23:40] <jgraham> and although we can hack in support it might break other tools
  520. # [23:40] <jgraham> which ruins the whole html5lib -> your existing tools workflow
  521. # [23:41] <zcorpan> perhaps the spec should allow things outside the root to be dropped
  522. # [23:41] <zcorpan> safari and opera already drop the doctype iirc
  523. # [23:42] <Hixie> the spec doesn't put any requirements on anything outside the root other than for scripted DOM implementations (which html5lib isn't)
  524. # [23:47] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Work]
  525. # [23:49] * Joins: nickshanks (n=nicholas@home.nickshanks.com)
  526. # [23:51] <zcorpan> there are 130 names in the Acks
  527. # Session Close: Wed May 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)