/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 24 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> which is kind of irritating since a single page can jam the database until you restart your browser
  4. # [00:00] * met_ rememer only Firefox to have js threads via XPCOM
  5. # [00:00] <Philip`> Oh, no, it only jams the database until you close the page which had the lock
  6. # [00:00] <Philip`> (since that page has its own connection, and locks belong to connections)
  7. # [00:01] <met_> or there can be some max_time_limit for one sql request
  8. # [00:01] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  9. # [00:01] <Philip`> I think multiple windows still have to all be in the same single thread (or at least appear exactly as if they are), because they can interact with each other in various ways
  10. # [00:01] <met_> if it takes too long db should stop it
  11. # [00:03] <Philip`> It doesn't have to be a slow request - you could just do "<script>executeSql('BEGIN EXCLUSIVE')</script>" and the request would finish quickly, but the database would still be locked
  12. # [00:03] <Philip`> (Oops, I said it was per-table but actually it's per-database)
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> yeah the spec already describes the threading model in detail
  14. # [00:06] <Hixie> though i can't find it now
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> hm
  16. # [00:06] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#threads ?
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> oh there we go
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  19. # [00:06] <Hixie> 4.1.4
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  22. # [00:12] <met_> if i read br. context well it looks like if I have two independent browser windows with www.example.com, these are 2 browsing context and do not know about each other, so single-thread rule doesn't apply for them
  23. # [00:12] <Hixie> correct
  24. # [00:13] <Hixie> bbiab
  25. # [00:13] <Philip`> Oh, in that case it's not true that the database access is single-threaded and easy
  26. # [00:14] <met_> yes
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  29. # [00:15] * Philip` wonders what happens if there are two unrelated browsing contexts, one in a window named "A" and one in a window named "B", and simultaneously the first does "while (1) window.open(uri, 'B');" and the second does "while (1) window.open(uri, 'A');"
  30. # [00:18] <Dashiva> One would win
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  32. # [00:19] <Dashiva> Unless you're somehow managing to really run both at once using two processors and a multithread-script UA or somesuch
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  34. # [00:20] <Philip`> The threading model in the spec allows them to be in separate threads on separate processors, as far as I can tell
  35. # [00:21] <Philip`> I guess a sensible implementation would just abort one of the scripts when it's forcibly navigated away from, since it's the same as if one page does "while (1) {}" and the user tries to hit the back button to get away
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  38. # [00:23] <MasterLexx> heho
  39. # [00:24] <Philip`> (Or maybe a sensible implementation would do everything in a single thread anyway, since it's not like people tend to look at multiple unrelated pages which are simultaneously using the full CPU to execute JS)
  40. # [00:24] <Philip`> Good evening
  41. # [00:24] <MasterLexx> html5?
  42. # [00:25] <Philip`> Yes?
  43. # [00:25] <MasterLexx> i did just read about it, is it only because of backwards compatibility and the xml must 100% valid problem?
  44. # [00:25] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  45. # [00:25] <Dashiva> It's not a 'only', no
  46. # [00:26] <MasterLexx> i am currently using xhtml 1.0 strict for all my small websites, so tell me, what is the future? xhtml2 or xhtml5?
  47. # [00:26] <Dashiva> Well, browsers are implementing parts of xhtml5 already
  48. # [00:27] <MasterLexx> i have read here and there a bit, but can't find much examples of html5 and so, i am no technician, so i don't udnerstand all those documentations with this abstract text
  49. # [00:27] <Dashiva> It's a work in progress
  50. # [00:27] <MasterLexx> is there a site where i can see a comparison of xhtml2 and 5 and 1?
  51. # [00:28] <MasterLexx> okay, and html5 will have all the elements of html 4.01 strict? or on what does it build up on?
  52. # [00:29] <Dashiva> It builds on the existing web
  53. # [00:30] <MasterLexx> .....
  54. # [00:30] <Philip`> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4 lists some differences between HTML4 and HTML5
  55. # [00:30] <MasterLexx> thx
  56. # [00:32] <hasather> Hopefully, this will be a success: http://yodel.yahoo.com/2007/05/22/one-small-step-for-email-one-giant-leap-for-internet-safety/
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  59. # [00:37] <MasterLexx> is the stupid target attribute removed in html5?
  60. # [00:38] <MasterLexx> as far as i read, frames arent supported
  61. # [00:40] <Hixie> Philip`: in that kind of UA, i would imagine that the ua would not determine "that the two browsing contexts are related enough that it is ok if they reach each other"
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  64. # [00:56] <Philip`> Hixie: Ah, didn't see that bit - makes sense
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  69. # [01:17] <Philip`> Wow, I'd forgotten how great Verlet integration is when compared to Euler integration
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  74. # [01:25] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/physics.html - I don't know why it doesn't work nicely in Opera - the circle rendering is broken and it only goes at 10fps :-(
  75. # [01:26] <Philip`> Also it's extremely jerky in FF3, but at least FF2 works fine...
  76. # [01:30] <MasterLexx> okay, now i am not anymore so sure of the success of html 5 http://www.webdevout.net/tidings/2007/04/23/the-whimzical-world-of-html-5/
  77. # [01:32] * moeffju[Work] is now known as moeffju
  78. # [01:32] <MasterLexx> i hope those html5 guys will make something good out of it, but i don't think this will happen in the next time
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  80. # [01:33] <Hixie> we're the html5 guys :-)
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  83. # [01:39] <MasterLexx> ohh
  84. # [01:40] <MasterLexx> hmm, i hope you guys fix those things
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  87. # [01:43] <Hixie> what do you want us to fix?
  88. # [01:50] <MasterLexx> i meant those things described there, like the bugmode
  89. # [01:50] <MasterLexx> and the thing with no version information.... why not? i don't think it can harm.
  90. # [01:50] <Hixie> the bugmode was just an idea someone proposed, we're not doing it
  91. # [01:51] <Hixie> why would you want version information? it's just more stuff for you to remember when you write HTML pages
  92. # [01:51] <Hixie> and most people don't bother with it anyway
  93. # [01:51] <MasterLexx> browsers have to bother with it
  94. # [01:51] <Hixie> why?
  95. # [01:51] <Hixie> they haven't up to now...
  96. # [01:51] <MasterLexx> it's not bad, at least let is a option!
  97. # [01:51] <Hixie> i don't understand what you would want it for
  98. # [01:52] <Lachy> only IE is going to bother implementing a bug mode switch
  99. # [01:52] <MasterLexx> i meant, i could still be there as optional emlement
  100. # [01:52] <Hixie> right, but what would it be good for?
  101. # [01:52] <Hixie> there's no point having an optional thing if it isn't used for anything
  102. # [01:52] <Hixie> just makes people who don't understand HTML think it's important and confuses them
  103. # [01:53] <MasterLexx> as wrtitten in the article, what if something goes wrong? what if one docuemnt has to be handeled in another manner?
  104. # [01:53] <MasterLexx> (sorry for my grammar, i am german)
  105. # [01:53] <Hixie> i don't understand why you would want documents to be handled in a different manner
  106. # [01:53] <Hixie> wouldn't we want just one set of rules?
  107. # [01:54] <Hixie> having multiple different sets of rules just seems like it would be really confusing for authors
  108. # [01:54] <MasterLexx> what if in a future html 6 some elemets are deprecated...
  109. # [01:54] <MasterLexx> i don't think so, you have one set of elements and attributes that you use, like in xhtml 1.0 strict, i don't use others...
  110. # [01:54] <Lachy> elements still have tob e supported, even if they're deprecated
  111. # [01:54] <Hixie> deprecating them doesn't mean browsers stop supporting it
  112. # [01:55] <Hixie> e.g. browsers still support <p align="">, but align="" isn't in HTML5
  113. # [01:55] <MasterLexx> but then this is some sort of quirks mode
  114. # [01:55] <Hixie> no, it's just the one mode
  115. # [01:55] <Hixie> we're trying to remove quirks mode as much as possible
  116. # [01:55] <Hixie> just have one mode
  117. # [01:56] <MasterLexx> oh god
  118. # [01:57] <MasterLexx> i think, there will be always other versions and things that are left out of new ones...
  119. # [01:57] <Hixie> they'll be left out of the language, but that doesn't affect what browsers have to do
  120. # [01:57] <Hixie> browsers just have one set of code that handles all versions
  121. # [01:57] <MasterLexx> nahh okay, i think i will wait a bit and see what heppens to html5
  122. # [01:58] <MasterLexx> i don't think i understand much of this, but it would meen that there will be a mess of elemets and attributes that all always have to be supported by browsers, there will never be a clear html this way
  123. # [01:59] <Hixie> yes, browsers will always support old documents
  124. # [01:59] <Hixie> having a version doesn't change that
  125. # [01:59] <madmoose> Browsers that want to be backwards compatible have to support all the old stuff anyway.
  126. # [02:00] <Hixie> note though that even though browsers have to support old stuff, it doesn't mean new versions of html can't be "clean"
  127. # [02:00] <Hixie> e.g. HTML5 doesn't have <tt> and <center> and so on
  128. # [02:00] <Hixie> even though browsers support <tt> and <center>
  129. # [02:00] <MasterLexx> okay okay, i read today the first time about html 5 in the news on selfhtml... i think i need to know more first
  130. # [02:00] <madmoose> Microsofts argument for a version number (if I understand it correctly) is that they want to support old bugs in their implementation, but their release cycle isn't going to coincide with html versions anyway.
  131. # [02:02] <Lachy> Microsoft's argument is flawed
  132. # [02:02] <Lachy> they want to perpetuate every bug in every single browser version, for all time
  133. # [02:03] <madmoose> Well that's their prerogative.
  134. # [02:03] <madmoose> It doesn't have anything to do with html version numbers though.
  135. # [02:04] <mpt> gsnedders, iCab doesn't have alerts asking you if you want pages to render per spec or per Web, but it does have checkboxes for it
  136. # [02:05] <mpt> hsivonen, on the Web at least, starship names are possibly more common than ship names
  137. # [02:07] <MasterLexx> what?
  138. # [02:08] <MasterLexx> bye and good night
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  192. # [09:36] <annevk> "
  193. # [09:36] <annevk> HTML5 is that spec. That was the original goal of the WHATWG effort, and
  194. # [09:36] <annevk> continues to be this goal. There are already other groups writing
  195. # [09:36] <annevk> specifications that don't take today's content into account, e.g. XHTML2.
  196. # [09:36] <annevk> Those specs will be ignored. I have no intention of writing a spec that
  197. # [09:36] <annevk> will be ignored, it seems like a spectacular waste of time and of the
  198. # [09:36] <annevk> human race's resources."
  199. # [09:40] <Hixie> hm?
  200. # [09:41] <annevk> I liked the way you phrased it
  201. # [09:42] <annevk> btw, it seems like <script for= event=> needs to be implemented :(
  202. # [09:44] <Hixie> it's not backwards compatible
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  204. # [09:45] <annevk> it's implemented in IE and Firefox and is used by plugins
  205. # [09:45] <annevk> executeSql() isn't backwards compatible either for that matter :)
  206. # [09:45] <Hixie> it's used in firefox?
  207. # [09:46] <Hixie> executeSql doesn't cause scripts to run when they shouldn't
  208. # [09:46] <annevk> yeah
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  214. # [10:29] <mikeday> some of the imperative pseudo-code/prose in the HTML5 spec is rather difficult to follow
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  216. # [10:37] <annevk> you have to be a native en-GB-x-Hixie speaker
  217. # [10:38] <mikeday> that could be awkward
  218. # [10:39] <mikeday> it's rather frustrating, as you can almost represent all this stuff with regular expressions
  219. # [10:39] <mikeday> which would be a lot easier to check that you've got it right
  220. # [10:40] <mikeday> I'm stuck on the "get an attribute" step
  221. # [10:40] <annevk> if you read carefully it shouldn't be a problem
  222. # [10:40] <mikeday> the code gets rather long and fiddly
  223. # [10:45] <annevk> you don't have to follow the specification
  224. # [10:45] <annevk> you just have to ensure that A > algorithm > B is identicala
  225. # [10:45] <jgraham> mikeday: Charset sniffing? Yeah, I didn't like doing that either
  226. # [10:45] <annevk> actually, A > B > C
  227. # [10:45] <annevk> where B can be English prose or C
  228. # [10:45] <annevk> or Python, etc.
  229. # [10:46] <mikeday> right
  230. # [10:53] <mikeday> the charset sniffer seems to parse attributes on close tags, eg. </foo bar="baz">
  231. # [10:53] <annevk> yeah
  232. # [10:53] <annevk> tokenizer does that too
  233. # [10:54] <mikeday> does the tokenizer parse them then throw them away?
  234. # [10:54] <annevk> yes
  235. # [10:54] <mikeday> phew :)
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  237. # [10:57] <mikeday> what I meant about the spec is that the description is actually lower level than the code
  238. # [10:57] <mikeday> it's easier to implement a high level spec with low level code than the reverse.
  239. # [10:57] <annevk> hmm
  240. # [10:57] <annevk> isn't the spec at the same level?
  241. # [10:58] <annevk> charset sniffing needs to be done at the byte level
  242. # [10:59] <mikeday> I mean it's very imperative
  243. # [10:59] <mikeday> the spec is longer than your python implementation, for example
  244. # [10:59] <mikeday> and much harder to understand
  245. # [11:01] <annevk> so how can it be done in the same way being as exact as it is now?
  246. # [11:01] <annevk> if it can be improved I suppose it should be done
  247. # [11:02] <mikeday> that's what I'm trying to figure out
  248. # [11:02] <mikeday> using regular expressions would be an obvious place to start
  249. # [11:02] <mikeday> and it's easy to see how that could be done for most of it
  250. # [11:03] <mikeday> for example: <![^>]*>
  251. # [11:03] <mikeday> that's the regular expression to match <!DOCTYPE...> and similar junk and skip over it
  252. # [11:04] <mikeday> similarly for comments: <!--([^-]|-[^-]|--[^>])*-->
  253. # [11:04] <mikeday> defining it using a regular expression means that there is no ambiguity about <!--> vs. <!---> vs. <!---->
  254. # [11:05] <mikeday> start tags and get attribute are a little trickier, but I think can still be done
  255. # [11:06] <mikeday> to match the beginning of a start tag: </?[A-Za-z][^\s><]*
  256. # [11:07] <mikeday> (or end tag, as it has an optional slash)
  257. # [11:08] <mikeday> the resulting regular expressions could just about be pasted straight into lex or perl or whatever
  258. # [11:09] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  259. # [11:09] <annevk> however, it makes it harder to introduce <!--> as comment
  260. # [11:10] <mikeday> very easy, just change the regular expression
  261. # [11:10] <mikeday> much easier than editing the prose
  262. # [11:11] <mikeday> actually, the expression I pasted before is a little bit too strict
  263. # [11:11] <annevk> if you're going down that route you have to define what subset of regular expressions and such...
  264. # [11:11] <mikeday> <!--([^-]|-+[^>])*--> would be better
  265. # [11:11] * annevk prefers the prose actually
  266. # [11:12] <mikeday> that's not a problem, many many specifications use standard subset of regular expressions or BNF
  267. # [11:12] <mikeday> oh well :)
  268. # [11:13] <annevk> regular expressions also encourages a particular implementation
  269. # [11:13] <annevk> which isn't necessarily good
  270. # [11:14] <annevk> meeting
  271. # [11:14] <mikeday> hmm, I think the current prose is more biased towards a particular implementation
  272. # [11:14] <mikeday> whereas regular expressions can be implemented directly, or used as specification for hand written parser
  273. # [11:14] * Joins: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d51A5CE12.access.telenet.be)
  274. # [11:20] <mikeday> ahah, regular expression for attributes: [\s/]*([^<>][^=\s/<>]*)[\s]*=[\s]*('[^']*'|"[^"]*"|[^\s<>]*)
  275. # [11:21] <mikeday> it may look like line noise, but you don't have to be an en-GB-x-Hixie speaker to understand it :)
  276. # [11:22] * mikeday is now known as mikeday|away
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  289. # [12:35] <annevk> mikeday|away, you have to be crazy instead :p
  290. # [12:38] * mikeday|away is now known as mikeday
  291. # [12:40] <mikeday> it's not really as nasty as it looks :)
  292. # [12:46] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-24-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  293. # [12:53] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  294. # [13:18] <gsnedders> mikeday: and how do you define error handling with ABNF/regex?
  295. # [13:19] <mikeday> you don't have to
  296. # [13:19] <mikeday> charset sniffing doesn't do error handling
  297. # [13:20] <gsnedders> mikeday: the majority of the tokeniser does, though
  298. # [13:20] <mikeday> the tokeniser is more complex
  299. # [13:21] <mikeday> but even that could be "more formalised" than it currently is
  300. # [13:21] <gsnedders> mikeday: then where were you going to use ABNF/regex? in the document conformance section?
  301. # [13:21] <mikeday> I'm just looking at charset sniffing now
  302. # [13:23] <mikeday> currently it is defined imperatively: go forward one byte, if it's this then goto step 1, otherwise step 2...
  303. # [13:23] <gsnedders> trying to work out how to implement things without using regex when given like that can get rather complex
  304. # [13:25] <mikeday> eh? you mean if I give you a regular expression you don't know what to do with it, or what?
  305. # [13:25] <gsnedders> I mean trying to implement a complex regular expression without using regular expressions can be hard to work out
  306. # [13:26] <mikeday> well, not really; regular expressions can be transformed into code mechanically
  307. # [13:26] <mikeday> unlike prose.
  308. # [13:27] <Dashiva> The regular expressions have to be created from prose first, though
  309. # [13:27] <Philip`> Would BNF be easier to understand and less line-noise-like than regular expressions, but still work about the same?
  310. # [13:28] <mikeday> yes
  311. # [13:28] <gsnedders> BNF is slightly easier, yes
  312. # [13:28] <mikeday> you would create definitions for commonly used bits
  313. # [13:28] <mikeday> avoid regular expression style shorthand
  314. # [13:28] <mikeday> more like the EBNF in the XML spec
  315. # [13:29] <gsnedders> I have a preference of ABNF, personally
  316. # [13:29] <mikeday> Comment ::= '<!--' Char* '-->'
  317. # [13:29] <mikeday> (as a rough example)
  318. # [13:32] <annevk> tree construction is now 63 lines...
  319. # [13:32] <annevk> two simple functions :)
  320. # [13:33] <mikeday> sounds good!
  321. # [13:34] * gsnedders still doesn't really know how to parse URIs without using regular expressions, when you don't know how many parts of the URI you have
  322. # [13:35] <mikeday> you mean like optional query parameters or port numbers?
  323. # [13:35] <gsnedders> or schemes, or authority, etc.
  324. # [13:36] <mikeday> it's pretty horrible
  325. # [13:37] <mikeday> :)
  326. # [13:37] <gsnedders> I can think of ways of doing it, but all very expensive
  327. # [13:37] <gsnedders> and in a non-cached interpreted language…
  328. # [13:38] <mikeday> the overlap between URLs and filenames makes things even worse
  329. # [13:39] <mikeday> c:foo is a filename, not a URL with scheme "c"
  330. # [13:39] <mikeday> of course, http://slashdot.org is a valid filename on Linux...
  331. # [13:40] <gsnedders> what FSes is it not valid on?
  332. # [13:41] <gsnedders> NTFS?
  333. # [13:42] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("k lol plz thx bai")
  334. # [13:47] <annevk> so it will become a little longer I'm afraid
  335. # [13:47] <annevk> need to deal with after the last closing tag too
  336. # [13:47] <annevk> oops
  337. # [13:50] <gsnedders> only two exams left this year!
  338. # [14:06] <mikeday> Windows won't like http://... as a filename I suspect
  339. # [14:10] <Dashiva> \/:*?"<>| are illegal
  340. # [14:10] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@pptp20-70.enst.fr)
  341. # [14:10] <mikeday> but anyway, if you try to use "http://..." as a filename, many programs will treat it as a URL instead
  342. # [14:11] <mikeday> 'cos it starts with http:
  343. # [14:11] <mikeday> can't really blame them
  344. # [14:11] * Quits: dolphinling (n=chatzill@rbpool5-115.shoreham.net) ("kernel upgrade!")
  345. # [14:15] * Quits: mikeday (n=mikeday@60.224.50.129) ("-")
  346. # [14:28] <gsnedders> Mac OS X won't like http:// as a filename, but HFS+ doesn't care. You can actually create a file called that going through the POSIX layers of OS X
  347. # [14:28] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
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  349. # [14:53] * annevk wonders why mike uses both tabs and spaces
  350. # [14:53] * annevk doesn't like that
  351. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> annevk - mike = me?
  352. # [14:56] <annevk> no, mikeday
  353. # [14:56] <annevk> in his libhtml project
  354. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> maybe because he inherited parts of the code from somebody ...
  355. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> happens to me sometimes
  356. # [15:00] <annevk> seems like he's starting from zero
  357. # [15:00] <annevk> (there's not much there so far)
  358. # [15:12] <annevk> XML5 sort of works now :)
  359. # [15:13] <annevk> there's no spec yet, but there's an implementation
  360. # [15:14] <Dashiva> What are the major changes so far?
  361. # [15:15] <annevk> I don't have DOCTYPE nodes (DOCTYPEs do affect processing of entities), I got </>, I got error handling
  362. # [15:15] <annevk> s/got/have//
  363. # [15:16] <annevk> I need to make testcases at some point and once I tweaked stuff a bit more I want to set up some online demo so people can generate trees for themselves
  364. # [15:28] * Joins: Toolskyn (n=Toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  365. # [15:30] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-206.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  366. # [15:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/physics.html (probably works best in Firefox) seems to be the desired kind of concept, and it's not particularly complex, though I still don't think it could get close enough to Elasto Mania without having their code to copy :-(
  367. # [15:45] <annevk> Philip`, btw, instead of using toDataURL and drawImage() one could use getImageData and putImageData
  368. # [15:46] <met_> Philip`looks nice
  369. # [15:47] <zcorpan> Philip`: cool!
  370. # [15:47] <Philip`> annevk: You can't really use get/putImageData if you want to save the image between browser sessions, because it's not unlikely that the user will change their screen resolution or switch to a different browser, and then ImageData will no longer correspond to the correct size (and you have no way of knowing what the correct size would be)
  371. # [15:49] <Philip`> Also it seems incredibly inefficient saving ImageData to disk, because it'll be dozens of bytes per pixel, whereas toDataURL is nice since it's about the best compression possible
  372. # [15:49] <Philip`> (Er, except it's base64-encoded, which kind of damages that a bit)
  373. # [15:49] <annevk> the first is an argument for having canvas pixel == image data pixel and the second, yeah fair enough
  374. # [15:49] <Philip`> (but not a lot)
  375. # [15:50] <annevk> doesn't have to be base64 encoded in theory
  376. # [15:50] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-66-75-149-197.san.res.rr.com)
  377. # [15:51] <Philip`> Hmm, can you get Unicode URIs with no limits on whatever characters are included? Then you could do image/png;base65536,<...> which'd be better
  378. # [15:51] <annevk> Philip`, I managed to jump out your physics model
  379. # [15:51] <annevk> I'm falling hard and forever :)
  380. # [15:51] <met_> me too
  381. # [15:51] <Philip`> The jumping-through-walls thing is an intentional feature ;-)
  382. # [15:51] <met_> on the left side
  383. # [15:52] <Philip`> because apparently that's what Elasto Mania does, so I'm just doing the same, though I'm probably using larger timesteps so it's a more visible problem
  384. # [15:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: Might as well stick to base256, no? :)
  385. # [15:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: Depends on whether it's being stored on disk as UTF-8 or UTF-16
  386. # [15:53] <Philip`> Actually, neither of those would work because they've got funny non-codepoint values :-(
  387. # [15:53] <Dashiva> Yep
  388. # [15:53] <Philip`> If you're storing ISO-8859-1 or UCS-2, then it'd work as base 256/65536 nicely
  389. # [15:55] <Philip`> annevk: If you had canvas pixel == image data pixel, why would one want to use get/putImageData instead of toDataURL/drawImage?
  390. # [15:56] <annevk> security
  391. # [15:56] <Philip`> Ah, right
  392. # [15:58] <Philip`> ...though toDataURL/drawImage should have the same security permissions/restrictions as ImageData (I think), except that current implementations don't do that
  393. # [15:58] <annevk> It's still unclear to me if you can somehow get an unsafe data: URL
  394. # [16:01] <Philip`> If you've got any kind of data: URL at all, how is being able to new Image()/drawImage/toDataURL any worse than simply transmitting the data: URL string directly to somebody?
  395. # [16:05] <Philip`> If you've got an image which was loaded from an external data: URL (or in another document or something) and you can't actually get the data: URL string out from it, then I think that's handled under different security rules and it's given a different origin so you can't drawImage/toDataURL it, so maybe that handles the problems (but I should probably leave security issues to people who understand them :-) )
  396. # [16:06] <annevk> I suppose data: URIs might be "safe" then
  397. # [16:06] <annevk> as long as you don't use data:image/svg+xml, or something
  398. # [16:07] * Quits: h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-66-75-149-197.san.res.rr.com)
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  403. # [16:49] <zcorpan> btw, the presentation went well yesterday
  404. # [16:50] * Quits: weinigLap (n=weinig@c-67-188-78-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  405. # [16:51] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
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  407. # [17:10] <gsnedders> exams over! w00t!
  408. # [17:13] <Philip`> Just until next year? :-)
  409. # [17:15] <zcorpan> html5.org seems to be down :(
  410. # [17:17] <hasather> zcorpan: hmm, that happens fairly often
  411. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - presentation?
  412. # [17:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah, http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/04/26/geek-meet-may-2007-html-5-and-xhtml/
  413. # [17:20] <hasather> zcorpan: probably because of this: http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2007/05/23/more-dns-issues/
  414. # [17:29] <zcorpan> hasather: ok
  415. # [17:39] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@237.84-48-121.nextgentel.com)
  416. # [17:40] <annevk> zcorpan, what questions did you get?
  417. # [17:41] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  418. # [17:41] <annevk> zcorpan, and what about the other presentation?
  419. # [17:43] <zcorpan> annevk: mostly about document conformance things (like <font>), versioning (and doctypes), if html5lib could parse tag soup, whether the presence/absence of "/" in void elements need to consistent...
  420. # [17:43] <zcorpan> when html5 will be ready/used/implemented
  421. # [17:44] <annevk> it's used and implemented... ready? well...
  422. # [17:44] <annevk> :)
  423. # [17:44] <zcorpan> jarvklo talked about xhtml and the mobile web, mostly
  424. # [17:45] <zcorpan> he had some good ideas about what can be done server side, like checking conformance without using a third party
  425. # [17:45] <annevk> how XHTML is fucked up there?
  426. # [17:46] <zcorpan> not really
  427. # [17:47] <zcorpan> more that the w3c and wap forum (or what it is) have finally come to an agreement about what markup to use for mobiles
  428. # [17:47] <annevk> oh that
  429. # [17:48] * Joins: Toolskyn88 (n=Toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  430. # [17:48] <annevk> I think vendors have mostly decided that HTML is to be used for mobiles
  431. # [17:48] <annevk> (Vendors being Apple, Nokia and Opera here...)
  432. # [17:48] <zcorpan> ok
  433. # [17:48] <zcorpan> i'd encourage you to talk to jarklo directly though
  434. # [17:48] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
  435. # [17:49] <annevk> the actual news from "wapforum" is that they're no longer going to subset and then superset W3C specs
  436. # [17:49] <annevk> like they did with WML2 and XHTML Mobile Profile
  437. # [17:49] <zcorpan> indeed
  438. # [17:49] <annevk> not that XHTML is now recommended or something
  439. # [17:50] <zcorpan> i thought it was
  440. # [17:51] <annevk> yeah, it probably still is
  441. # [17:51] <zcorpan> on what grounds i don't know, really
  442. # [17:52] * Joins: weinigLap (n=weinig@17.203.15.217)
  443. # [17:52] <annevk> "latest, greatest"
  444. # [17:52] <annevk> Anyone know how to escape !- inside a Linux terminal?
  445. # [17:53] <othermaciej> \?
  446. # [17:53] <annevk> I'm trying to test comments but doing 'python test.py "<!-- -->"' doesn't work
  447. # [17:53] <othermaciej> backslash or single quote
  448. # [17:54] <annevk> I tried backslash, didn't work
  449. # [17:54] <annevk> Single quote doesn't seem to work either...
  450. # [17:54] <othermaciej> what shell are you using?
  451. # [17:55] <annevk> Ah wait, backslash does work
  452. # [17:55] <annevk> The problem is that the backslash ends up in my Python script...
  453. # [17:55] <othermaciej> echo "<"\!"-- -->"
  454. # [17:55] <annevk> I'm using "GNOME Terminal 2.x"
  455. # [17:55] <othermaciej> does what you'd want in bash
  456. # [17:56] <othermaciej> the terminal is not the shell
  457. # [17:56] <annevk> ah ok
  458. # [17:56] <annevk> that does work
  459. # [17:56] <annevk> thanks
  460. # [18:03] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=Toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  461. # [18:06] <annevk> twitter is funny... it escapes your text input and then counts the number of characters and complaints about it being over 140...
  462. # [18:07] <Dashiva> Even better with forum software showing title previews, first 10 chars or so, after escaping
  463. # [18:08] <Dashiva> Here we &nb... ->
  464. # [18:08] <annevk> the thing is that the client side check does count the visual characters and it therefore does get submitted and ends up in their database
  465. # [18:23] <annevk> whatwg is down
  466. # [18:24] <hasather> annevk: DH is having DNS issues
  467. # [18:28] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  469. # [18:29] <annevk> k
  470. # [18:29] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
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  472. # [18:29] * moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju
  473. # [18:44] <zcorpan> html5.org is up again
  474. # [18:46] <zcorpan> perhaps i should blog about the presentation at blog.w.o
  475. # [18:47] <annevk> you have a blog now? :)
  476. # [18:47] <zcorpan> blog.whatwg.org
  477. # [18:48] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  478. # [18:49] <annevk> heh
  479. # [18:54] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e02cb81d724c1b80)
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  485. # [19:24] * gsnedders has been given the best reason _ever_ for using <em> for italics even though they've been told better — "we prefer it".
  486. # [19:27] <Hixie> if anyone can work out the code ni http://img.shopping.com/jfe/JavaFrontEnd-fe55.1.1-874/js/tabMenus.js gets called in a way that actually does something, i'll give them 500 points.
  487. # [19:27] <Hixie> a sample page that gets that js file is http://www1.uk.shopping.com/xPP-hobs--neff-price_range_630_800
  488. # [20:00] * Quits: Toolskyn88 (n=Toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Connection timed out)
  489. # [20:10] <Philip`> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:4IXIf9DhazkJ:zhulianxing.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default/7688979022477086776 - back in February it had <a ... onmouseover="startShow(&#39;1&#39;,&#39;6&#39;);setMenusSize(&#39;8&#39;);" onmouseout="sMH();hIfr();" ...>
  490. # [20:12] <Philip`> Uh, March
  491. # [20:12] <Philip`> (probably)
  492. # [20:14] <Philip`> (I really don't know why http://zhulianxing.blogspot.com/ posted shopping.com's front page on their blog...)
  493. # [20:15] <Hixie> aah
  494. # [20:15] <Hixie> interesting
  495. # [20:20] * Joins: nickshanks (n=nickshan@home.nickshanks.com)
  496. # [20:20] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
  497. # [20:20] <bewest> what will 500 points get me?
  498. # [20:20] <nickshanks> ian, did you see my mailing list suggestion? is it workable?
  499. # [20:21] * Joins: jonbarnett (n=jbarnett@Flower-Shop-Network-Inc-1149542.cust-rtr.pacbell.net)
  500. # [20:21] <Hixie> bewest: dunno :-)
  501. # [20:21] <Hixie> nickshanks: which one?
  502. # [20:21] <zcorpan> http://blog.whatwg.org/html5-geekmeet
  503. # [20:22] <Hixie> bewest: thanks, though, that's very helpful
  504. # [20:22] <nickshanks> ian: one document or two
  505. # [20:25] <Philip`> "Does that mean that you can convert any old HTML document to XML by feeding it through html5lib?" - not really, since it seems a significant number produce DOMs that can't be serialised to well-formed XML
  506. # [20:25] <Hixie> nickshanks: when did you send it?
  507. # [20:25] <Hixie> oh i see it
  508. # [20:25] <nickshanks> about 20 mins ago. i can't receive emails now, so haven't seen if anyone replied
  509. # [20:25] <Hixie> haven't gotten to that yet in my e-mail
  510. # [20:25] <Hixie> :-)
  511. # [20:25] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah, true
  512. # [20:25] <Hixie> there's a reply
  513. # [20:25] <nickshanks> but since you popped up in #webkit, i thought i'd ask :)
  514. # [20:26] <zcorpan> Philip`: you can probably convert it to XML5 however ;)
  515. # [20:26] <Philip`> (Actually, I'm not sure how significant a number - at least there are some with <!--------> which I think can't be done, and some with invalid characters in attribute names, but I never looked at what the actual problems were and if they could be worked around easily)
  516. # [20:27] <bewest> I don't think that javascript is used on that page
  517. # [20:27] <bewest> Hixie: it looks like legacy stuff that someone new is trying to clean up
  518. # [20:27] <bewest> Hixie: looks to me like thereis more than one author involved in the javascript across the site
  519. # [20:28] <Hixie> seems likely
  520. # [20:28] <Hixie> oh well
  521. # [20:28] <bewest> sometimes new people may not like javascript that goes out onthe site... but they can't necessarily just get rid of it because it's not clear what might break
  522. # [20:29] * Joins: SavageX (n=maikmert@T6435.t.pppool.de)
  523. # [20:29] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@64.244.67.2)
  524. # [20:30] <Philip`> shopping.com on archive.org shows that the tabMenus thing wasn't there six months ago, so it's a new addition (and then half-removal)
  525. # [20:30] <Hixie> fun
  526. # [20:30] <Philip`> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?source=%3Cspacer+type%22block%22+width%3D%221%22+height%3D%221%22%3E%3C%2Fspacer%3E - aha, that's one I found that couldn't be serialised to XML
  527. # [20:31] <Philip`> Can XML5 do that? :-)
  528. # [20:31] <Hixie> hm, the tag wants to talk to me
  529. # [20:31] <Hixie> that can't bode well
  530. # [20:33] * jonbarnett is now known as jbarnett_
  531. # [20:33] * jbarnett_ is now known as jonbarnett
  532. # [20:33] <Philip`> Hallucinating about speaking HTML tags?
  533. # [20:34] <Hixie> no, the w3c tag
  534. # [20:34] <Hixie> apparently there is "significant interest" in me joining them for lunch next week
  535. # [20:34] <Dashiva> Bring a food taster
  536. # [20:35] <Hixie> it'll be in a google cafeteria, so i think i'm safe
  537. # [20:36] <Dashiva> Polonium or whatnot, I tell you
  538. # [20:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: perhaps they want you to say hello to their little friend
  539. # [20:43] <nickshanks> Dashiva: that's the soviets silly
  540. # [20:43] <nickshanks> soogle isn't microsoft
  541. # [20:43] <nickshanks> -s +g
  542. # [20:43] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  543. # [20:43] <Hixie> nickshanks: replied
  544. # [20:43] <nickshanks> what did you say? :)
  545. # [20:44] <nickshanks> (i can't get email atm.)
  546. # [20:44] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9537.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  547. # [20:44] <Hixie> you said that an option would be to "simply have two views of the spec"
  548. # [20:44] <Hixie> i said that it was from "simple"
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  574. # [23:40] <jgraham> html5lib now has BeautifulSoup support (at last. I really made a meal of implementing it)
  575. # [23:40] <Hixie> what's BeautifulSoup?
  576. # [23:41] <jgraham> http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/
  577. # [23:41] <jgraham> (we just build a tree in that format, the BeautifulSoup parser is irrelevant, obviously)
  578. # [23:42] <Hixie> ah ok
  579. # [23:42] <jgraham> Simon Willison asked for it at XTech so he could use his getElementsByCSSSelector function with html5lib
  580. # [23:46] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  581. # [23:47] <Hixie> ah
  582. # [23:48] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
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  584. # [23:55] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  585. # [23:58] <zcorpan> is there a reason why http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations doesn't link to hsivonen's slides?
  586. # Session Close: Fri May 25 00:00:00 2007

The end :)