/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 28 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> http://jeff.cutsinger.org/news/10/Error-Handling
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  13. # [00:48] <Jero> Could someone please explain to me why TWO character streams are created when parsing isindex elements? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-tree-construction.html#isindex
  14. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> Jero: copy-paste error on Hixie's part?
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  16. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> or wait
  17. # [00:51] <Jero> not sure, because it explicitly says in the description of the streams "The two streams of character tokens together should..."
  18. # [00:52] <zcorpan_> perhaps in some languages you would have the input in the middle or before?
  19. # [00:54] <Jero> hmm, yes, that's probably it
  20. # [00:54] <Jero> http://he.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%95%D7%97%D7%93:Userlogin&returnto=1904
  21. # [00:55] <Philip`> That text looks like it's still in front of the input box
  22. # [00:55] <Philip`> (just with 'in front' being 'on the right')
  23. # [00:55] <zcorpan_> indeed
  24. # [00:56] <zcorpan_> RTL text still has the same source order
  25. # [00:56] <Jero> oh yeah, you're right
  26. # [00:56] <zcorpan_> although the second stream of text might just be a POP BIDI character
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  28. # [00:57] <zcorpan_> "RTL OVERRIDE ...text...", <input>, "POP BIDI"
  29. # [00:59] <Jero> hmm, yeah, maybe
  30. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> ask Hixie :)
  31. # [01:00] <Jero> yeah, i'll send him an email :p
  32. # [01:00] <Jero> or would it be better to email the mailinglist?
  33. # [01:01] <Philip`> Seems slightly odd that <isindex prompt> isn't supported
  34. # [01:01] <Philip`> (but I guess that's because nobody uses it in practice)
  35. # [01:01] <Philip`> (but I'd have thought they would, otherwise they'd get totally inconsistent renderings)
  36. # [01:02] <zcorpan_> i guess we'll know when some browser vendor tries to implement this :)
  37. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> Jero: you're implementing <isindex> in ph5p? :)
  38. # [01:03] <Jero> yup
  39. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> cool
  40. # [01:04] <Jero> i'm working my way down in the tree construction process now
  41. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> i checked it out the other day
  42. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> seems you have made some progress
  43. # [01:04] <Jero> thanks
  44. # [01:04] <zcorpan_> good work 8)
  45. # [01:05] <Jero> i hope it'll be good :p
  46. # [01:07] <zcorpan_> i mentioned ph5p at my presentation
  47. # [01:08] <Jero> yeah, i noticed, thanks
  48. # [01:08] <Jero> i saw it on your slides i mean :p
  49. # [01:09] <Jero> are there a lot of implementations you know of? or just the 3 you listed on your presentation?
  50. # [01:11] <zcorpan_> http://waffle.wootest.net/2007/05/16/ruby-the-same-token/
  51. # [01:11] <zcorpan_> not sure where he has the source of that
  52. # [01:12] <zcorpan_> but those are the ones i know of
  53. # [01:14] <Jero> hmm, that's not a lot
  54. # [01:16] <zcorpan_> would be cool to have it implemented in a browser, that would surely find bugs in the spec :)
  55. # [01:17] <Jero> indeed
  56. # [01:18] <zcorpan_> esp if it's used for quirks mode
  57. # [01:19] <Jero> but html5lib could be used to download a collection of pages to parse it, right?
  58. # [01:19] <zcorpan_> sure
  59. # [01:20] <zcorpan_> or at least the parsing bit :)
  60. # [01:20] <Jero> or do you mean that you want to actually see how those websites are displayed?
  61. # [01:20] <Jero> ah ok :p
  62. # [01:20] <Jero> yeah, for that it'll become a bit hard with just html5lib
  63. # [01:21] <zcorpan_> i mean to have a downloadable build of firefox that has a real html5 parser, to see how many people compain about their sites broke in the new firefox
  64. # [01:21] <zcorpan_> just using firefox as an example
  65. # [01:22] <zcorpan_> for instance, we might find that the parsing spec actually has to take <script><!--</script>--></script> into account
  66. # [01:23] <Jero> yeah, having a Firefox build with an html5 parser would be awesome
  67. # [01:23] <zcorpan_> or actually, firefox already doesn't do that for standards mode. let's see if there are any bug reports on that
  68. # [01:29] <zcorpan_> hmm, the <script><!--</script>--></script> might include some reparsing stories currently. what do you do with <script><!--</script>x</script>EOF ?
  69. # [01:29] <zcorpan_> (or just <script><!--</script>x EOF)
  70. # [01:32] <zcorpan_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311128
  71. # [01:33] <Jero> hmm, i wish i couldn't test what ph5p does with that, but I've added 1000 lines of untested code today, so i need to get rid of all the syntax errors first :p
  72. # [01:41] <zcorpan_> there are some dups of document.write('</script>'); not working in mozilla, even though it's only in standards mode
  73. # [01:41] <Jero> yup, it's annoying
  74. # [01:42] <zcorpan_> that suggests to me that trying to remove support for pseudo-comments in quirks mode won't work
  75. # [01:42] <zcorpan_> and we will have to spec it
  76. # [01:42] <Jero> yeah, i think you're right
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  78. # [02:11] <Jero> hey i got to go
  79. # [02:11] <Jero> see ya
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  113. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> playing around with setting up a Venus-based aggregator
  114. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> question: What's a reasonable time interval for running the script that checks for updates to blogs?
  115. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> every 30 minutes? once an hour?
  116. # [10:51] <annevk> hourly and please do check for 304 and such :)
  117. # [10:52] <annevk> I guess Sam has support for that...
  118. # [10:56] <annevk> What is actually the reason for not allowing both block and inline in the same element?
  119. # [10:56] <annevk> Besides that it doesn't look good
  120. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> annevk - where are block and inline in the same element prohibited
  121. # [11:03] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-71-135-110-214.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  122. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> (and I'm just using Venus off-the-shelf so I hope Sam does have it set up for 304s and such)
  123. # [11:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: pretty much everything that used to be %Flow is now bimorphic
  124. # [11:06] <hsivonen> annevk: what's your take on my editor-related conformance/bimorphic idea? http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1178698369
  125. # [11:06] <hsivonen> I'd be *very* interested in hearing Hixie's design rationale, though.
  126. # [11:07] <annevk> me too
  127. # [11:08] <annevk> See http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/use_only_blocklevel_elements_in_blockquotes/#comment57
  128. # [11:13] <annevk> hsivonen, why don't you support file upload?
  129. # [11:13] <annevk> your validator
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  134. # [11:26] <mpt> "Fundamentally, I believe that the current state (where HTML is functionally a subset of XHTML, but operationally, HTML is more robust than XHTML) is unstable."
  135. # [11:28] <othermaciej> XHTML is functional?
  136. # [11:29] <mpt> You know that's not what he means
  137. # [11:31] <othermaciej> I don't know who you're quoting or what the context is
  138. # [11:31] <othermaciej> I was just trying to make a snide remark
  139. # [11:31] <mpt> Sam Ruby, http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1179440845
  140. # [11:31] <mpt> and I agree
  141. # [11:32] <mpt> That XHTML but not HTML can have lists inside paragraphs is unfortunately unavoidable. That XHTML but not HTML can have MathML or SVG is just ... wrong.
  142. # [11:33] <othermaciej> we definitely need a way to embed other languages in non-X HTML
  143. # [11:33] <hsivonen> annevk: the reason why I don't have file upload is that I had prioritized my thesis. And now I am prioritizing the parser.
  144. # [11:33] <othermaciej> SVG probably matters more than MathML to be honest
  145. # [11:33] <annevk> That's definitely the wrong way to go around things, hsivonen. You should priortize around my needs :)
  146. # [11:34] <mpt> othermaciej, agreed
  147. # [11:34] <annevk> I'm still not quite convinced that embedding SVG inside HTML (or XHTML for that matter) is a good idea
  148. # [11:34] <mpt> In the meantime, there will be a lot of <canvas> used where SVG would be more useful-in-the-long-term
  149. # [11:34] <hsivonen> annevk: out of curiosity, why do you need file upload? don't you have your stuff on an HTTP server somewhere?
  150. # [11:35] <mpt> (or some less crackful vector format, I'm not choosing SVG specifically)
  151. # [11:35] <hsivonen> annevk: Lachy wanted data: URIs which are easier UI-wise ;-)
  152. # [11:37] <hsivonen> annevk: I really think we need to put aside theoretical purity regarding SVG being presentational and figure out how to achieve feature parity with the XML serialization here
  153. # [11:37] <annevk> hsivonen, my XML5 spec is not uploaded somewhere so far
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  155. # [11:38] <hsivonen> annevk: FWIW, when upload happens, raw POST is likely to happen before form-based upload
  156. # [11:39] <hsivonen> (Since raw POST is again UI-neutral)
  157. # [11:39] <othermaciej> annevk: well, the other option is to replicate enough useful vector graphics features in HTML+CSS
  158. # [11:40] <hsivonen> I haven't figured out yet how to do file uploads at the same server URI while keeping the UI clean even without JavaScript toggles
  159. # [11:41] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, part of my procrastination is that I want to get the UI Right and I want to get the server side Right and I'm not yet sure how to get the UI Right.
  160. # [11:42] <hsivonen> annevk: I try hard to avoid adding to the form widgetry in the UI
  161. # [11:43] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  162. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk: with file upload reality says I can't trust Content-Type. would you like me to sniff or to force you to pick the parsing mode manually?
  163. # [11:44] <hsivonen> (with raw POST I'm going to respect the Content-Type and make setting it your problem)
  164. # [11:48] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah, I've seen propposals to that effect
  165. # [11:48] <annevk> hsivonen, with file upload sniffing the file extensions seems like a bettter solution
  166. # [11:49] <hsivonen> annevk: would it be useful to you if I implemented raw POST that you could POST a local file to without form encoding using the tool of your choice (curl, your own Python script, whatever)?
  167. # [11:49] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  168. # [11:49] * hsivonen looks up man curl
  169. # [11:50] * annevk was joking with the prioritizing above
  170. # [11:50] * annevk could use curl given the site provides example usage :)
  171. # [11:56] * hsivonen wonders if it is legal to have a query string in a POST URI
  172. # [11:56] <hsivonen> (as far as HTTP goes regardless of browsers)
  173. # [12:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I finally managed to get an N800. :-)
  174. # [12:14] <annevk> othermaciej, another thing is XBL
  175. # [12:14] <annevk> that helps with integrating as well and doesn't pollute semantics
  176. # [12:14] <annevk> hsivonen, afaik query strings are just part of a URI (as opposed to fragment identifiers, which are special)
  177. # [12:15] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. excellent. we'll see if the servlet API thinks so too
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  179. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - great to hear you got an N800
  180. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> can you get me one too? and/or an N95?
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  182. # [12:25] <hsivonen> sorry, it was hard enough to get this one
  183. # [12:26] <kfish> hi hsivonen, maikmerten, MikeSmith
  184. # [12:26] <hsivonen> kfish: hi
  185. # [12:27] <maikmerten> hi
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  187. # [12:28] <hendry> hsivonen: what is the main browser on the N800? the webkit "Web" ?
  188. # [12:28] <hsivonen> hendry: Opera 8.6 engine with Nokia UI.
  189. # [12:30] <hsivonen> hendry: the UI is in SVN. the engine seems to come as a binary from Opera Software, so it is hard for even Nokia to offer the new engine for the old hardware revision
  190. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> kfish - hei. got to catch a train from Kanagawa back to Tokyo. back on around 10pm JST
  191. # [12:32] <hsivonen> hendry: Minomo should be available though. it's been a while since I've tried Minimo for Maemo, so I don't know if it is now even usable
  192. # [12:32] <kfish> MikeSmith, cool, l8r
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  195. # [12:44] <hendry> hsivonen: have you used the Webkit "Web" one?
  196. # [12:45] <hendry> i wonder if it has a better name..
  197. # [12:46] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  198. # [12:47] <hsivonen> hendry: I've tried the S60 port. I have not tried the Gtk port. And I can't get anyone who works on Maemo to say anything about the Gtk port.
  199. # [12:48] <hsivonen> hendry: it looks like the Gtk port is dead
  200. # [12:48] <hsivonen> hendry: but no one knows or dares to speculate
  201. # [12:49] <hsivonen> hendry: besides, it looks like the Gtk port was a research center thing and not a product thing
  202. # [12:49] <hendry> i built minimo ages ago
  203. # [12:49] <hendry> and I have not seen much 'movement'
  204. # [12:50] <hendry> I find the Webkit one more interesting
  205. # [12:50] <hendry> as I like it on my E65 for one
  206. # [12:50] <hendry> And I my flat mate Andrei wrote it :)
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  251. # [21:18] <Jero> For those who care: I've updated my parser http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/ to a real parser, instead of implementing only a small part of it
  252. # [21:18] <Jero> though it's still needs some work, not every phase of the tree construction process has been implemented, only from the initial phase until the in body insertion mode
  253. # [21:19] <Jero> all modes from in table to after frameset still need to implemented
  254. # [21:19] * zcorpan_ looks
  255. # [21:19] <Jero> I've also grabbed the tests from html5lib and tested them: http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/tests.html
  256. # [21:20] <Jero> green: pass; red: sux; black: could not be tested because some of its elements are not yet implemented
  257. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> what is the output, html5?
  258. # [21:20] * Quits: weinigLap (n=weinig@c-67-188-78-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  259. # [21:21] * annevk notes that http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Example_simple is non-conforming
  260. # [21:21] <Jero> the output is a DOMDocument class
  261. # [21:21] <Jero> it's a native PHP class
  262. # [21:21] <zcorpan_> i mean in the "output" textarea
  263. # [21:21] <zcorpan_> annevk: yeah, probably also inappropriate use of <address>
  264. # [21:22] <Jero> the output is html5
  265. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> Jero: where do the linebreaks come from?
  266. # [21:23] <Jero> are you testing the code Anne linked to?
  267. # [21:23] <Jero> hmm, and that domdocument class also inserts its own linebreaks
  268. # [21:24] <Jero> "<p>h<p>m<p>m" outputs:
  269. # [21:24] <Jero> <html>
  270. # [21:24] <Jero> <head></head>
  271. # [21:24] <Jero> <body>
  272. # [21:24] <Jero> <p>h</p>
  273. # [21:24] <Jero> <p>m</p>
  274. # [21:24] <Jero> <p>m</p>
  275. # [21:24] <Jero> </body>
  276. # [21:24] <Jero> </html>
  277. # [21:25] <annevk> Maybe we should come up with some alternative arguments for the headers= debate. 1) They are supported. 2) Who is going to use them? 3) They are not used right now, who says they will be used in the future? 4) Don't we have a better solution? 5) We do. Defined algorithms and using scope= in case that doesn't work.
  278. # [21:25] <zcorpan_> Jero: right, it should output <html><head></head><body><p>h</p><p>m</p><p>m</p></body></html>
  279. # [21:25] <zcorpan_> no line breaks
  280. # [21:25] <Jero> yeah i know
  281. # [21:26] <Jero> i'm looking into it right now
  282. # [21:26] <zcorpan_> k
  283. # [21:26] <zcorpan_> Jero: noticed that you don't parse / in tags correctly too
  284. # [21:27] <Jero> oh yeah, you're right
  285. # [21:29] <Jero> i've added it to the tests (3rd entry)
  286. # [21:34] * zcorpan_ fixed http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Example_simple
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  292. # [21:38] <zcorpan_> Jero: you move <style> to HEAD, which you shouldn't, and the contents of STYLE are moved to the BODY, which they shouldn't
  293. # [21:38] <Jero> i know, the implementation of style and script elements is messed up at the moment
  294. # [21:38] <Jero> that's why all tests with either of the two elements always fail
  295. # [21:38] <zcorpan_> ok
  296. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> oh, seems like <style> is parsed as an empty element by ph5p
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  299. # [22:05] <Jero> well, i got to go
  300. # [22:05] <Jero> thanks for your input!
  301. # [22:05] <Jero> i'll try to get some improvements up tomorrow
  302. # [22:05] <Jero> later
  303. # [22:05] <zcorpan_> cya
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The end :)