/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 30 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:24] <SimonW> does anyone know the reason that HTTP doesn't include a way of specifying the character set used in a POST?
  11. # [00:24] <SimonW> Or does it have a method that I don't know about?
  12. # [00:25] <zcorpan_> SimonW: you mean character encoding?
  13. # [00:25] <SimonW> yes, character encoding
  14. # [00:25] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-188.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  15. # [00:25] <SimonW> in fact, I can't find the bit of the spec that says "browsers shall submit forms using the same character encoding as the form was served up in"
  16. # [00:25] <SimonW> is that HTML spec instead?
  17. # [00:25] * SimonW is pretty bad at specs
  18. # [00:26] <othermaciej> SimonW: you can't specify Content-Type on a request?
  19. # [00:26] <othermaciej> SimonW: I'd imagine Content-Type w/ a charset parameter would be it, but perhaps that is only allowed as a response header
  20. # [00:27] <SimonW> othermaciej: as far as I can tell you can't
  21. # [00:27] <SimonW> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec5.html#sec5
  22. # [00:27] <SimonW> you can say "Accept-Charset"
  23. # [00:27] <SimonW> common knowledge appears to be that you can't either
  24. # [00:27] <SimonW> which is ludicrous - it means that server side scripts have to either guess the character set
  25. # [00:28] <SimonW> or use statistical analysis to figure it out
  26. # [00:28] <SimonW> or just apply a heuristic: "try to decode as UTF 8, if that fails assume ISO-885-1"
  27. # [00:28] <SimonW> 8859-1
  28. # [00:28] <SimonW> so I thought I'd pop in here and check my facts before ranting about it on my blag
  29. # [00:29] <SimonW> unless there's a more appropriate forum?
  30. # [00:30] <zcorpan_> dunno. i know that trackbacks usually don't leave hints about encoding, and come in different encodings
  31. # [00:31] <webben> Do you mean the transfer encoding or the content encoding?
  32. # [00:31] <zcorpan_> webben: content encoding
  33. # [00:32] <SimonW> content encoding - utf-8 v.s. iso-8859-1 etc
  34. # [00:32] <SimonW> it appears to be a huge gaping hole in HTTP which everyone has been ignoring for the past 15 years
  35. # [00:33] <zcorpan_> then we have anothing thing to fix for HTTP5... ;)
  36. # [00:33] <webben> Weird at http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.11
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  38. # [00:33] <webben> it says: "If the content-coding of an entity in a request message is not acceptable to the origin server, the server SHOULD respond with a status code of 415 (Unsupported Media Type)."
  39. # [00:34] <webben> which would seem to imply that request messages must be able to specify content-coding.
  40. # [00:34] <zcorpan_> webben: yeah, but that's about gzip &c, not utf-8 &c
  41. # [00:35] <zcorpan_> a different level of "encoding"
  42. # [00:35] <webben> oh, a third level
  43. # [00:36] <zcorpan_> character encoding (utf-8) -> content encoding (gzip) -> transfer encoding (7bit)
  44. # [00:37] <SimonW> aah, so I care about character encodin
  45. # [00:37] <zcorpan_> SimonW: yeah
  46. # [00:37] <SimonW> I'm going to e-mail Roy Fielding
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  49. # [00:41] <othermaciej> SimonW: I guess that's a bug in HTTP, though de facto you have to post in the page encoding and the server assumes that
  50. # [00:41] <SimonW> I've been trying to find where that de facto rule is written down
  51. # [00:41] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@c5144430c.cable.wanadoo.nl)
  52. # [00:41] <othermaciej> SimonW: I don't think it is
  53. # [00:42] <othermaciej> if you mean in the form of documentation or normative reference
  54. # [00:42] <zcorpan_> SimonW: a de facto rule is that iso-8859-1 pages will submit form content as windows-1252
  55. # [00:42] <othermaciej> there are no iso-8859-1 pages on the web
  56. # [00:43] <othermaciej> (the ones that claim to be are windows-1252)
  57. # [00:43] <zcorpan_> right
  58. # [00:43] <Dashiva> There was that "bug" earlier about webpage not "supporting" pure ASCII
  59. # [00:43] <SimonW> aha, http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html#sec3.7.1 looks relevant
  60. # [00:45] <zcorpan_> annevk: hey
  61. # [00:46] <zcorpan_> annevk: found a blog software written in turbogears that i wanted to try out
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  63. # [00:47] <SimonW> pah, turbogears :P
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  65. # [00:47] <annevk> zcorpan_, don't talk about that with SimonW around :p
  66. # [00:47] <zcorpan_> why not?
  67. # [00:47] * annevk is kidding
  68. # [00:47] <zcorpan_> SimonW: what's wrong with turbogears?
  69. # [00:47] <SimonW> it's not Django :)
  70. # [00:48] * SimonW co-founded Django
  71. # [00:48] <SimonW> on a more practical note, it seems to be being eclipsed by Pylons these days
  72. # [00:48] <SimonW> the TurboGears team made a bunch of decisions at the start which were very sane then but haven't really held out over the long run
  73. # [00:49] <SimonW> their choices for the core components have mostly been replaced by better alternatives
  74. # [00:49] <othermaciej> just rename Django to Python in Pails or something
  75. # [00:49] <SimonW> which seems to have left the project in an awkward position
  76. # [00:49] <SimonW> personally I'm hoping TurboGears and Pylons will merge, and Django and Pylons will work towards a common API for core features
  77. # [00:50] <Dashiva> Pythons on Planes
  78. # [00:50] <othermaciej> heh :-)
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  84. # [01:07] <annevk> SimonW, first step of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#x-www-form-urlencoded defines what you're looking for
  85. # [01:08] <annevk> browsers should follow that roughly (with the caveats mentioned earlier)
  86. # [01:09] <annevk> when that's integrated with HTML5 it will be more detailed I suspect although it's pretty clear already
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  96. # [02:38] * othermaciej is now known as om_food
  97. # [02:38] <zcorpan_> "It adds semantic richness, and that's valuable for its own sake" -- http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3413761#post3413761
  98. # [02:41] <Philip`> The unquoted second part of that sentence doesn't seem to agree with the first part, since it talks about adding semantic richness for the sake of enhanced behaviour from future UAs instead of just for its own sake
  99. # [02:42] <zcorpan_> yeah
  100. # [02:42] <zcorpan_> indeed
  101. # [02:42] <Philip`> That's still a kind of tenuous theoretical sake, though
  102. # [02:43] <om_food> rel vs. rev is so brain-hurtingly confusing
  103. # [02:45] <Philip`> Need to work on a Brain 5, to fix the problems that today's legacy brains have with understanding really complex things
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  105. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> Brain 5 must be backwards compatible, otherwise it won't be adopted
  106. # [02:51] <karlUshi> om_food: what is the result of "7./2."?
  107. # [02:53] <karlUshi> there's a new apple member in the HTML WG. Adam Roben
  108. # [02:53] <karlUshi> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1&order=org
  109. # [02:53] * om_food is now known as othermaciej
  110. # [02:53] <othermaciej> karlUshi: 3.5?
  111. # [02:54] <karlUshi> yes othermaciej
  112. # [02:55] <karlUshi> :) my point is when we were at school, starting to learn division of rational numbers. It was hard. There was a learning curve.
  113. # [02:55] <karlUshi> HTML has very simple things (though markup languages are difficult for most people) and there are features a bit more complex and it just takes time to learn.
  114. # [02:56] <Dashiva> It used to be 3 1/2 for a few years, then it became 3.5
  115. # [02:56] <karlUshi> cf. <om_food> rel vs. rev is so brain-hurtingly confusing
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  117. # [02:59] <othermaciej> karlUshi: rel vs. rev is more in the realm of path integrals than rational division
  118. # [02:59] <othermaciej> even experts have a hard time
  119. # [02:59] <zcorpan_> 399 invited experts
  120. # [03:00] <karlUshi> othermaciej: yes, it takes time to learn things and be a *pro*
  121. # [03:00] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
  122. # [03:02] <karlUshi> it reminds me of http://www.molly.com/2005/11/14/web-standards-and-the-new-professionalism/
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  132. # [04:15] <zcorpan_> damn, it's hard to test <noscript> when the tools you have at your disposal to inspect the DOM is javascript
  133. # [04:15] <zcorpan_> s/tools/tool/
  134. # [04:18] <Philip`> Disable JS, load the page, reenable JS, click the scripted DOM-inspection button on the page?
  135. # [04:18] * Philip` isn't sure exactly what happens when you toggle JS
  136. # [04:20] <zcorpan_> yeah. don't have such a button in ie7 though, and i can't figure out how to actually disable js in ie7 (i thought it was "Active Scripting")... and i don't trust the web dev toolbar in ie7
  137. # [04:22] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@66.120.92.34)
  138. # [04:23] <zcorpan_> oh, the setting doesn't apply to local files, apparently
  139. # [04:26] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-128.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  140. # [04:26] <zcorpan> input document: <!doctype html><head><noscript>X</noscript></head><body>Y</body>
  141. # [04:26] <zcorpan> .innerHTML on the root element: <HEAD><NOSCRIPT></HEAD>
  142. # [04:26] <zcorpan> <BODY>X</NOSCRIPT>Y</BODY>
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  144. # [04:27] <Philip`> That looks nice and tree-like
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  153. # [04:30] <zcorpan> i guess it makes sense to pop the noscript when it contains non-HEAD content, and then treat it as if it was found in HEAD
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  155. # [04:30] <zcorpan> i.e., .innerHTML being <head><noscript></noscript></head><body>XY</body>
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  171. # [04:50] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/noscript-in-head/
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  183. # [06:05] <Hixie> zcorpan: your proposal for parsing <noscript> wouldn't allow round-tripping of valid dacuments, which is a requirement
  184. # [06:05] <Hixie> oh wait
  185. # [06:05] <Hixie> actually
  186. # [06:05] <Hixie> it would
  187. # [06:05] <Hixie> well...
  188. # [06:05] * Hixie ponders
  189. # [06:05] <Hixie> what you proposed probably wouldn't but there are ways around it i guess
  190. # [06:05] <Hixie> hm
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  192. # [06:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: i don't follow, what is the problem?
  193. # [06:09] <Hixie> nothing
  194. # [06:09] <Hixie> just thinking out loud
  195. # [06:09] <zcorpan> oh, ok
  196. # [06:09] <Hixie> sorry :-)
  197. # [06:09] <zcorpan> no worries :)
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  245. # [11:00] <Jero> I've been reading Lachy's article about the <b> and <i> elements and I can't help thinking "then what about <u>, <s>, <strike>, and <big>!?"
  246. # [11:00] <Jero> I know they're deprecated in HTML 4 and all, but the reason for keeping <b> and <i> would IMO also apply to those elements.
  247. # [11:06] <othermaciej> the official reasoning in the HTML5 spec for what elements are kept is that they can represent useful semantics associated with the given default presentation
  248. # [11:07] <Jero> then so can the <u> element, right?
  249. # [11:08] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@c5144430c.cable.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  250. # [11:09] <othermaciej> <u> is not used for any common typographical conventions in typeset text
  251. # [11:09] <othermaciej> (underline rather)
  252. # [11:11] <Jero> but the underline also hints that the text somehow has a different meaning than the rest of the text
  253. # [11:13] <hsivonen> does Python come with a standard library that allows me to spider the Web Forms 2.0 test suite without invoking wget?
  254. # [11:14] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I can't think of anything offhand, but would http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/spider.py/0.5 help?
  255. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Jero: fwiw, I'd like to keep <u> for the use cases that <m> has been created for
  256. # [11:15] <hsivonen> virtuelv: thanks. the point of avoiding wget is avoiding any non-default stuff, though
  257. # [11:20] * hsivonen hacks up something quick and dirty
  258. # [11:23] <KevinMarks> hsivonen: you can use urllib
  259. # [11:23] <KevinMarks> see diveintopython.org for examples
  260. # [11:23] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: thanks
  261. # [11:24] * hsivonen didn't know urllib can spider
  262. # [11:25] <KevinMarks> well, depends what you mean by spider
  263. # [11:25] <KevinMarks> http://diveintopython.org/html_processing/index.html is an overview
  264. # [11:26] <KevinMarks> though if it's a hack and not some performance fest, use BeautifulSoup
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  266. # [11:28] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: I only want to grab a local copy of Anne's Web Forms 2.0 test suite without invoking anything that users don't get by installing a vanilla *nix system and python
  267. # [11:28] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: the diveintopython stuff is what I need. thanks
  268. # [11:28] <KevinMarks> ah, right, no parsing
  269. # [11:29] <KevinMarks> http://diveintopython.org/http_web_services/index.html is the right place to start then
  270. # [11:30] <KevinMarks> http://diveintopython.org/http_web_services/review.html specifically ;)
  271. # [11:32] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: yeah, I have the single url download case covered already. need to traverse the directories, though
  272. # [11:33] <hsivonen> which is what the html_processing example shows
  273. # [11:33] <virtuelv> hsivonen: why do you want to avoid wget?
  274. # [11:33] <KevinMarks> markp++
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  276. # [11:33] <hsivonen> virtuelv: Mac OS X doesn't have wget by default
  277. # [11:33] <virtuelv> ah
  278. # [11:33] <virtuelv> neither does windows, for that matter
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  280. # [11:43] <Jero> hsivonen: yeah, keeping <u> instead of <m> seems reasonable
  281. # [11:44] <Jero> but still, keeping those presentational elements because the can represent useful semantics associated with the given default presentation still seems a bit odd to me
  282. # [11:44] <Jero> heck, even <blink> would fall under that
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  285. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> kfish - PechaKuchaNight tonight in Tokyo
  286. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> http://www.tokyoartbeat.com/event/2007/EE5B
  287. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> volume 42
  288. # [11:50] <kfish> MikeSmith, sweet
  289. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> you should come up and do a web-designer-friendly 20x20 overview of Annodex some time
  290. # [11:51] <kfish> MikeSmith, sounds good :-)
  291. # [11:54] <hsivonen> hendry: did you see Ari Jaaksi's blog post from May 15th about Mobile Web being dead?
  292. # [11:54] <virtuelv> hsivonen: url?
  293. # [11:55] <hsivonen> virtuelv: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2007/05/mobile-is-dead.html
  294. # [11:55] <virtuelv> ty
  295. # [11:56] <hendry> hsivonen: no I haven't, will read.
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  298. # [12:13] <hendry> hsivonen: i left a comment
  299. # [12:33] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
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  302. # [12:37] <hendry> hsivonen: do you anything about fonts?
  303. # [12:37] <hendry> :)
  304. # [12:37] <hsivonen> hendry: I know about fonts but I'm not doing anything about fonts
  305. # [12:38] <hendry> I was wondering how fonts like Dejavu and perhaps VeraSansYuanTi gets treated by CSS
  306. # [12:38] <mikeday> font-family: DejaVu Sans;
  307. # [12:39] <hendry> or how rather Firefox chooses the fonts
  308. # [12:39] <hsivonen> hendry: depends on the UA and the font back end I guess
  309. # [12:39] <hendry> as i don't expect Web authors to do a "font-family: DejaVu Sans;"
  310. # [12:39] <hsivonen> hendry: why not? without testing, I'd expecting Safari to support that
  311. # [12:39] <mikeday> use @font-face to map "sans-serif" to "DejaVu Sans" :)
  312. # [12:39] <hendry> aren't Web authors supposed to choose a family or something? instead of an actualy named font
  313. # [12:40] <hsivonen> hendry: DejaVu Sans is a font family in CSS terms
  314. # [12:40] <hendry> where can i read further about this? is the a CSS font doc I wonder
  315. # [12:41] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
  316. # [12:41] <hsivonen> mikeday: speaking of CSS fonts and DejaVu: for some reason, prince didn't find the DejaVu fonts in /Library/Fonts. I had to install them in prince's own font dir and edit fonts.css
  317. # [12:41] <mikeday> there are the standard families: serif, sans-serif, cursive, monospace
  318. # [12:42] <mikeday> hsivonen, can other MacOS X apps see them?
  319. # [12:43] <hendry> i wonder if there is some firefox option to show all the registered fonts?
  320. # [12:43] <hendry> on the system.
  321. # [12:44] <mikeday> Font Book or \Windows\Fonts or whatever depending on platform
  322. # [12:45] <mikeday> it's not really a browser-specific thing
  323. # [12:46] <hendry> well, just to know what Firefox (on the system) sees when it comes to fonts, not so much the system
  324. # [12:47] <hendry> gosh, did that make any sense :)
  325. # [12:47] <mikeday> yeah, that makes sense
  326. # [12:47] <mikeday> when you run prince --debug it prints a list of all the fonts that it can see
  327. # [12:47] <hendry> mikeday: you wrote Prince?
  328. # [12:47] <mikeday> ie. all the fonts that show up when it asks the OS: "Which fonts are installed?"
  329. # [12:48] <mikeday> well, the easy bits :)
  330. # [12:48] <mikeday> (and the font system, which is a nasty bit, I guess)
  331. # [12:48] <hendry> mikeday: it's pretty cool. :)
  332. # [12:49] <mikeday> thank you, I'm glad you like it :)
  333. # [12:53] <mikeday> funny thing about the default font families is that you can't mix and match them
  334. # [12:53] <mikeday> eg. font-family: serif monospace;
  335. # [12:54] <hendry> mikeday: http://static.natalian.org/2007-05-30/fc-list_monty.txt http://static.natalian.org/2007-05-30/monty-fonts.txt
  336. # [12:54] <mikeday> the presence of serifs is orthogonal to monospacing
  337. # [12:54] <hendry> fc-list seems to pick up more. what is fc-list doing I wonder?
  338. # [12:54] <hendry> are the 'standard families' et al documented somewhere?
  339. # [12:54] <mikeday> it is probably including PostScript Type 1 fonts, which Prince doesn't support yet
  340. # [12:55] <mikeday> all the fonts that Prince lists should be TrueType fonts
  341. # [12:55] <mikeday> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#generic-font-families
  342. # [12:55] <hendry> monty$ wc -l monty-fonts.txt fc-list_monty.txt
  343. # [12:55] <hendry> 63 monty-fonts.txt
  344. # [12:55] <hendry> 179 fc-list_monty.txt
  345. # [12:56] <mikeday> rather Latin-centric, the standard font families
  346. # [12:56] <mikeday> they might as well be named Times, Helvetica, and Courier; it'd be less typing
  347. # [12:57] <hendry> mikeday: dejavu isn't mentioned on http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#generic-font-families
  348. # [12:57] <mikeday> no, as DejaVu is an actual font, derived from Bitstream Vera
  349. # [12:57] <mikeday> not a generic abstract font family, as defined by CSS
  350. # [12:58] <mikeday> "sans-serif" is not a physical font, it's a placeholder for any number of actual fonts
  351. # [12:58] <mikeday> (that don't have serifs, hopefully)
  352. # [12:58] <hendry> this is a science ...
  353. # [13:05] <mikeday> possibly the most useless generic font family is "fantasy"
  354. # [13:05] <mikeday> useless because it doesn't map to any obvious Microsoft Core font :)
  355. # [13:05] <hendry> i find it confusing that actual font can be in font-family like "font-family: DejaVu Sans;"
  356. # [13:06] <hendry> mikeday: do you have exp with CJK fonts? esp. Chinese?
  357. # [13:06] <mikeday> a little
  358. # [13:06] <mikeday> I use the Arphic fonts
  359. # [13:08] <hendry> afaik there a four free chinese fonts ttf-arphic-ukai ttf-arphic-uming ttf-fireflysung xfonts-wqy
  360. # [13:08] <mikeday> the arphic font pack includes several fonts
  361. # [13:08] <mikeday> eg. traditional + simplified variants
  362. # [13:09] <mikeday> hmm, actually, they're each in separate packages now it seems
  363. # [13:09] <hendry> is it actually used out there? compared to proprietary simsun or VeraSansYuanTi?
  364. # [13:09] <mikeday> ttf-arphic-gbsn00lp, ttf-arphic-gkai00mp for the simplified ones
  365. # [13:09] <mikeday> I have no idea, but I would guess that most Chinese websites are designed for Microsoft fonts
  366. # [13:10] <hendry> damn, this is hard. :)
  367. # [13:11] <mikeday> what are you trying to do, actually?
  368. # [13:11] <hendry> build an OS http://webconverger.com/
  369. # [13:11] <hendry> that doesn't suck for the Chinese market :)
  370. # [13:12] <hsivonen> mikeday: yeah, Font Book saw them
  371. # [13:12] <mikeday> define OS?
  372. # [13:12] <mikeday> hsivonen, they are probably getting silently dropped by Prince for some reason
  373. # [13:13] <mikeday> Prince 6.0 rev 2 includes a fix for some font issues on MacOS X, and extra debug info
  374. # [13:13] <mikeday> (see Prince development roadmap http://www.princexml.com/roadmap/ )
  375. # [13:13] <hsivonen> mikeday: ok. I didn't know about --debug nor about a roadmap. thanks
  376. # [13:14] <hsivonen> mikeday: I'm on Mac OS X 10.4.9
  377. # [13:14] <mikeday> the roadmap is new, it's an experiment in being open to our users :)
  378. # [13:14] <hendry> mikeday: based on Debian. boots up kernel. detects hardware, launches X and Firefox (Webconverger)
  379. # [13:14] * Quits: Ducki (n=Alex@nrdh-d9b980d7.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  380. # [13:14] <mikeday> so it's like a distro for web kiosks
  381. # [13:15] <mikeday> and you're wondering what packages you need to include?
  382. # [13:15] <hendry> mikeday: http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/521334985/
  383. # [13:15] <hendry> mikeday: yes, exactly
  384. # [13:15] <hendry> mikeday: though I've lived out in CJK
  385. # [13:16] <hendry> and I know that they're really fussy about the fonts.
  386. # [13:16] <mikeday> hmm, sina.com.cn looks better than that when I load it here
  387. # [13:16] <mikeday> try installing all the arphic fonts
  388. # [13:17] <hendry> ok, though will Firefox use them I wonder.
  389. # [13:17] <hendry> I think that test rendering looks pretty bad myself :)
  390. # [13:18] <mikeday> it should use them if they are installed properly, otherwise might need some Fontconfig tweaking
  391. # [13:18] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  392. # [13:21] <hendry> mikeday: ok, i'll try a build out later. Webconverger is totally free software btw http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debian-live/configs/webconverger-cn/config/chroot_local-packageslists/locale?op=file&rev=0&sc=0
  393. # [13:21] <hendry> mikeday: thanks for your help, I need to get busy on other stuff
  394. # [13:21] * mikeday waves
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  402. # [14:04] * hsivonen tries to figure out the most robust way to track which files in the Opera test suite are expected to be conforming and which ones are expected to be non-conforming
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  421. # [16:37] <gsnedders> markp: you see my email about having non ASCII superset encoded autodiscovery tests?
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  425. # [16:57] <markp> gsnedders: no
  426. # [16:57] <markp> checking
  427. # [16:58] <gsnedders> markp: it was a while ago.
  428. # [16:59] <markp> doesn't mean anything
  429. # [17:00] <gsnedders> markp: what doesn't? the date? the email? something else?
  430. # [17:00] <markp> found it
  431. # [17:00] <markp> er, the fact that it was a while ago <-- doesn't mean anything
  432. # [17:00] <markp> i'm months behind on email
  433. # [17:00] <gsnedders> ah
  434. # [17:00] <markp> ah, from november?
  435. # [17:01] <gsnedders> markp: 20th Feb
  436. # [17:01] <markp> hmm
  437. # [17:01] <markp> aha
  438. # [17:01] <markp> found it
  439. # [17:01] <gsnedders> I talked to you about the nov one a while ago, probably in Jan or so
  440. # [17:02] <gsnedders> I was just thinking of something like UTF-16
  441. # [17:02] <markp> i can do utf-16
  442. # [17:02] <gsnedders> as I say, it'll break my implementation for one
  443. # [17:02] <markp> excellent
  444. # [17:03] <gsnedders> and that's part of the point of tests :P
  445. # [17:04] <markp> did you want the html or the xml in utf-16?
  446. # [17:04] <markp> or both?
  447. # [17:04] <gsnedders> the HTML
  448. # [17:05] <gsnedders> anything apart from plain ASCII XML I think should be in the Atom test case (and my implementation copes with that, just not the HTML)
  449. # [17:05] <gsnedders> my feeling is the XML should be kept as simple as possible, as it's really the ability to get the <link> in the HTML that's being tested
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  453. # [17:08] <markp> bah
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  457. # [17:36] <markp> http://diveintomark.org/tests/client/autodiscovery/html4-057.html
  458. # [17:36] <markp> i suppose i should add a whole bunch of tests for the new rel="feed" too
  459. # [17:39] <virtuelv> heh. I see lowsrc="" is making a return in the form of 'cite'
  460. # [17:39] <virtuelv> (yes, I realise that there's a difference)
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  462. # [17:48] <gsnedders> markp: heh. what I didn't realise before is that we now can't actually find the <link rel="next> either now :P
  463. # [17:49] <markp> yeah, i had to fix that in my atomautodiscovery.py test harness too
  464. # [17:50] <markp> to make it easy for you, every html and xhtml file is guaranteed to have a content-type with a charset parameter
  465. # [17:50] <markp> so you can cheat a little
  466. # [17:51] <gsnedders> I don't think I'll get the fix in 1.0, as it requires changing quite a bit, and most of that stuff is already meant to go into 1.1
  467. # [17:51] <gsnedders> so unlikely to be fixed till the end of the year in a stable release
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  537. # [23:49] <Hixie> i'm really quite amused by the way the headers="" discussion is still going on
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  540. # Session Close: Thu May 31 00:00:00 2007

The end :)