/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-05-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:13] <rxKaffee> is there any data on html5 support in netscape?
  8. # [00:14] <rxKaffee> netscape 8 is based on firefox, so... maybe some support?
  9. # [00:15] <jruderman> i imagine it's the same as in whatever gecko version it uses
  10. # [00:15] <gsnedders> 1.7.x, IIRC
  11. # [00:15] <gsnedders> which was what version of Fx? 1.0?
  12. # [00:16] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: yeah
  13. # [00:17] <rxKaffee> so you mean html5 was added to gecko in 1.7, and netscape uses geko 1.0?
  14. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> rxKaffee: what do you mean with "html5 was added"?
  15. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> rxKaffee: gsnedders said that netscape 8 uses gecko 1.7.x (the same as firefox 1.0)
  16. # [00:18] <rxKaffee> ah,ok
  17. # [00:19] <gsnedders> so it'll support as much as Firefox 1.0 does
  18. # [00:20] <rxKaffee> gecko/20070321 == gecko 1.7?
  19. # [00:20] <zcorpan_> rxKaffee: no
  20. # [00:20] <rxKaffee> oh, that is what netscape 8 reports
  21. # [00:21] <rxKaffee> 20070321
  22. # [00:21] <zcorpan_> really?
  23. # [00:21] <rxKaffee> ummm, netscape 8.1.3 I mean
  24. # [00:21] <rxKaffee> mmm
  25. # [00:21] <zcorpan_> i didn't think gecko 1.7 was updated anymore
  26. # [00:21] <rxKaffee> it also says 1.7.5
  27. # [00:23] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Browser seems to indicate it was based on Firefox 1.0.x until that stopped being maintained, and now it's just (presumably updated) versions of Gecko 1.7.5
  28. # [00:23] <gsnedders> it'll just be updated versions of Gecko 1.7
  29. # [00:23] <gsnedders> whether the patches go upstream or not is another matter
  30. # [00:28] <rxKaffee> hmm, so prb ditch netscape
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  32. # [00:28] <rxKaffee> ok, thanks guys :)
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  34. # [00:29] <gsnedders> othermaciej: does Safari pay any attention to <ttl> in RSS feeds?
  35. # [00:30] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I don't know
  36. # [00:31] <gsnedders> othermaciej: can you find out easily, or not?
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  38. # [00:32] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I can ask the people who implement the system framework that implements feed handling, or I can try to find the code somewhere in apple's source control
  39. # [00:33] <gsnedders> othermaciej: if you have any spare time, could you?
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  43. # [00:40] * gsnedders awaits the arrival of [3]markp
  44. # [00:40] <gsnedders> you aren't having a good day with web access, are you? :P
  45. # [00:41] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I actually don't have any spare time and a big backlog of tasks, so I can only really queue this one up if it is particularly important
  46. # [00:41] <othermaciej> gsnedders: on #webkit on FreeNode you may be able to find someone who knows
  47. # [00:42] <gsnedders> othermaciej: ah, don't worry then
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  82. # [03:23] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14
  83. # [03:23] <Hixie> it's so sad seeing the w3c validator team try to make itself irrelevant
  84. # [03:23] <Hixie> long live hsivonen
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  86. # [03:27] <kfish> http://validator.annodex.org/
  87. # [03:27] <kfish> ^^^ for checking Ogg Theora videos in HTML5 ;-)
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  90. # [03:33] <Philip`> http://validator.annodex.org/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.opera.com%2Fhowcome%2F2007%2Fvideo%2FA_New_Computer--small.ogg :-(
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  92. # [03:37] <kfish> Philip`, yeah, a common encoding problem ;-)
  93. # [03:37] <kfish> perhaps that should be a warning ...
  94. # [03:37] <kfish> gah, gotta go ... l8r
  95. # [03:38] <Philip`> Is there any chance of having a link to an explanation of what the messages mean? :-)
  96. # [03:39] <Philip`> (and maybe suggestions of how to fix them)
  97. # [03:39] <Philip`> because I haven't got a clue what a granulepos is :-p
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  99. # [03:43] <mpt> Granuleposes are delicious delicacies.
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  109. # [04:44] <aroben_> does anyone know why HTMLTableElement doesn't have a createTBody method?
  110. # [04:45] <Hixie> in DOM2 HTML, or in HTML5?
  111. # [04:45] <aroben_> Hixie: either
  112. # [04:45] <Hixie> html5 is just whatever dom2 did
  113. # [04:45] <Hixie> dom2... dunno
  114. # [04:45] <Hixie> we could add one if people actually use these apis
  115. # [04:46] <aroben_> Hixie: it's an inconvenient omission
  116. # [04:46] <Hixie> feel free to send a suggestion to whatwg
  117. # [04:46] <aroben_> Hixie: will do
  118. # [04:46] <Hixie> cool
  119. # [04:46] <aroben_> Hixie: thanks
  120. # [04:46] <Hixie> np
  121. # [04:52] <othermaciej> aroben_: do other browsers have that?
  122. # [04:52] <othermaciej> I think the table methods to create specific table part elements are a little silly
  123. # [04:52] <aroben_> othermaciej: i don't know
  124. # [04:52] <othermaciej> it seems weird for table parts to have a convenience way to make them but not most other elements in HTML, beyond createElement
  125. # [04:53] <aroben_> othermaciej: if we're going to have convenience methods at all they might as well be convenient
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  128. # [04:53] <othermaciej> well, the really convenient way to dynamically munge up markup is innerHTML
  129. # [04:54] <othermaciej> aroben_: furthermore, the tbody element is optional so the need to ever make one dynamically is low
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  174. # [06:26] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  225. # [10:35] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator-about/#src
  226. # [10:35] <hsivonen> feedback from Windows XP/Vista users would be appreciated
  227. # [10:35] <hsivonen> (works on Mac OS X and Ubuntu)
  228. # [10:36] <hsivonen> (doesn't run annevk's tests yet)
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  242. # [11:22] <virtuelv> hsivonen: Just wondering about one of the terms in your license: "You must not cause the service to access content that is deemed illegal in Finland. "
  243. # [11:23] <virtuelv> knowing that might be hard
  244. # [11:23] <hsivonen> virtuelv: right. I guess that is useless anyway.
  245. # [11:24] <virtuelv> yeah, it's kind of unenforcable
  246. # [11:24] <hsivonen> virtuelv: taken out
  247. # [11:29] <hsivonen> aaargh. Jetty API changed argument meanings without changing the signatures
  248. # [11:31] <hsivonen> no. something even weirder going on with Jetty and AJP
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  251. # [11:39] <hsivonen> http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/JETTY-239 fun they won't release a new binary for a total AJP blocker
  252. # [11:54] <krijnh> Is putting a class attribute on <html> acceptable?
  253. # [11:54] <krijnh> Although not allowed by current DTDs
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  257. # [11:57] <hsivonen> krijnh: ok in HTML5
  258. # [11:57] <krijnh> Yeah, I thought so
  259. # [11:58] <krijnh> Was it an error in the html4.01 DTD?
  260. # [11:58] <krijnh> Or was that the id attribute
  261. # [11:59] <hsivonen> krijnh: id at least. can't remember about class
  262. # [11:59] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  263. # [11:59] <krijnh> Me neither
  264. # [12:00] <krijnh> Most of the times I add a js_enabled class to the html element with JS
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  267. # [12:04] <mikeday> Here is a HTML/CSS rendering question for the assembled multitude
  268. # [12:04] <mikeday> why do empty table cells get a default height of one line?
  269. # [12:05] <mikeday> eg. <tr><td> </td></tr> will not be zero height
  270. # [12:05] <hsivonen> mikeday: there's a CSS line box in there
  271. # [12:05] <mikeday> but for <div> </div>, there isn't?
  272. # [12:10] <mikeday> hmm, hang on. Looks like I got confused.
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  274. # [12:10] <mikeday> Bah, each table cell had a secret non-breaking space hidden in it that wasn't showing up in the editor.
  275. # [12:11] <mikeday> That's why it was getting a non-zero height.
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  292. # [13:53] <Dashiva> distributive law, coming soon to your selectors syntax
  293. # [13:56] <virtuelv> annevk: yt?
  294. # [13:57] <annevk> yeah
  295. # [13:58] <virtuelv> pm
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  322. # [16:41] <annevk> http://nickcowie.com/2007/html5-and-mobile-browsers/
  323. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> annevk - quoting that, "One reason being by 2010 more people will be accessing the internet by mobile phone than computer" ... I don't know what data he bases that claim on, but I don't reckon it to be accurate.
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  333. # [17:23] <annevk> any ubuntu users here?
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  335. # [17:24] * annevk wonders how to switch his laptop into "presentation mode"
  336. # [17:24] <annevk> hasather, are you using ubuntu?
  337. # [17:25] <hendry> annevk: are you using FullerScreen extension?
  338. # [17:26] <annevk> I'm just using Opera
  339. # [17:26] <annevk> that's not the problem
  340. # [17:26] <annevk> the problem is what to do once I'm connected to a projector
  341. # [17:27] <hasather> annevk: yea
  342. # [17:27] <annevk> hasather, do you know what to do when you're connected to a projector?
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  344. # [17:27] <hasather> never done that
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  357. # [18:32] <met_> http://www.google.com/trends?q=html%2C+xhtml%2C+xml
  358. # [18:37] <Dashiva> Lots of XHTML in Czech Republic (relatively)
  359. # [18:38] * met_ will stop googling for xhtml whole day and it will decrease 8-)
  360. # [18:38] <met_> and the winner is India
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  378. # [19:53] <annevk> Presentation at reboot went quite good I think
  379. # [19:54] <annevk> Except that I had to switch to Windows last minute because I couldn't get multiple screens to work in Ubuntu on time
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  383. # [20:02] <met_> annevk: are slide from your presentations somewhere? or it is the same html file with svg on background?
  384. # [20:03] <annevk> questions: why have <font>, is there multiple file upload, why not use xhtml, why make the language looser (we don't), how long before we can use it, ...
  385. # [20:03] <annevk> fortunately it's recorded...
  386. # [20:03] <annevk> met_, it's similar, but different
  387. # [20:03] <annevk> not online yet
  388. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> annevk - recored = videotaped?
  389. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> recorded
  390. # [20:04] * clotman_ is now known as clotman
  391. # [20:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah
  392. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> excellent
  393. # [20:04] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-24-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  394. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> how long was your actual presentation?
  395. # [20:04] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.96.233)
  396. # [20:04] <met_> questions - maybe update http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/ ?
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  400. # [20:13] <annevk> MikeSmith, I think 30 minutes
  401. # [20:13] <annevk> MikeSmith, I think QA took about 10, not entirely sure
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  403. # [20:14] <zcorpan_> annevk: you mean Q&A?
  404. # [20:14] <annevk> yeah
  405. # [20:14] <annevk> the audience was really involved, it was quite good
  406. # [20:14] <annevk> I guess everyone has opinions about HTML :)
  407. # [20:14] <zcorpan_> oh indeed
  408. # [20:15] <Dashiva> Did they understand document conformance?
  409. # [20:15] <annevk> I'm not sure
  410. # [20:15] <annevk> I don't think I did a good job of explaining it though
  411. # [20:16] <annevk> good point, I should add examples about a document that's syntacally correct but non conforming and one that's syntactically incorrect
  412. # [20:16] <annevk> anyway, got to go
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  414. # [20:16] <annevk> got a flight in 30 minutes or so and I need a new book
  415. # [20:17] <othermaciej> HTML for Dummies!
  416. # [20:18] * zcorpan_ wonders when there will be an HTML5 for Dummies
  417. # [20:20] <met_> it will be HTML for Dummies 5
  418. # [20:21] <zcorpan_> oh right
  419. # [20:22] <Dashiva> I thought HTML5 was for dummies (too)
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  421. # [20:28] <othermaciej> zing!
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  428. # [21:17] <zcorpan_> wtf is this about? http://softwinsite.org/rss-publishing-software/firefox-and-its-advantages/
  429. # [21:18] <met_> zcorpan_ based on http://neoarticle.com/Article/Firefox-And-Its-Advantages/27309
  430. # [21:18] <met_> free article service
  431. # [21:19] <zcorpan_> ok, but what is the actual article about?
  432. # [21:19] <met_> do you have website with no content? no problem look on neoarticle.com for some free article, put them on you website and ... you have content. then add google adds and wait for money
  433. # [21:19] <met_> is whole about SEO and money
  434. # [21:19] <zcorpan_> ah
  435. # [21:19] <met_> hardly understandable for technical people 8-)
  436. # [21:20] <met_> not worth reading
  437. # [21:20] * Parts: icaaq_ (i=icaaaq@c-a237e455.231-7-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  438. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> makes sense, the article is about nothing and there are lots of ads
  439. # [21:21] <met_> looks like all article from this domain vere copied from neoarticle.com
  440. # [21:22] <Philip`> Why would someone copy an article that's not even written in coherent English? There must be much better places to borrow from
  441. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> Philip`: who cares? it has lots of good keywords ;)
  442. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> even WHATWG in there
  443. # [21:23] * Quits: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-6544ca328e9fcc71) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  444. # [21:24] <met_> Philip` as I have said, it's hardly understandable for technical people 8-)
  445. # [21:24] <Philip`> Oh, good point - I suppose they don't actually care what anyone thinks after having read it, as long as you look at their page once :-)
  446. # [21:24] <zcorpan_> so long as they get money from their ads
  447. # [21:26] <Philip`> Ooh, my advanced SEO techniques have finally given me higher Google ranking on my site's name than a material safety data sheet PDF for some single-sided woven tape
  448. # [21:26] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com)
  449. # [21:27] * Philip` should start selling links to people
  450. # [21:28] * met_ will blackmail Philip` about not telling Google that Philip` uses forbidden technique, so should be banned form google index completely
  451. # [21:32] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.105.136)
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  462. # [22:22] * Quits: SavageX (n=maikmert@L91a2.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  463. # [22:23] <ddfreyne> Heh, people are saying HTML should have a </sarcasm> tag — open tag forbidden, close tag required :)
  464. # [22:27] <jruderman> lol
  465. # [22:32] <met_> it was on whatwg mailing list about 2 months ago
  466. # [22:32] <met_> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/011023.html
  467. # [22:33] <ddfreyne> Oh, hadn't seen it on the list yet… awesome.
  468. # [22:33] <met_> read whole thread
  469. # [22:35] <Philip`> It's more compatible with current authoring practices if both the opening and closing tags are optional
  470. # [22:37] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com)
  471. # [22:43] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  472. # [22:54] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  473. # [23:15] * Quits: weinigLap (n=weinig@17.255.100.166) (Remote closed the connection)
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  475. # [23:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: yes, but that's a UA requirement! :P
  476. # [23:22] <gsnedders> </sarcasm>
  477. # [23:35] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@c5144430c.cable.wanadoo.nl)
  478. # [23:43] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-188.rev.home.ne.jp)
  479. # [23:45] <Philip`> The main UA requirement would be for the UA to be AI-complete, so it can detect sarcasm and allow user stylesheets to highlight it in case the user wasn't reading carefully enough, which shouldn't be that hard
  480. # [23:45] <Philip`> If browsers developers concentrated all their effort on the AI, then once they've finished they can sit back and the rest of the browser can literally write itself, after pointing it at a few C++ tutorials
  481. # [23:46] <annevk> <ai> does that
  482. # [23:46] <annevk> specifically, "data:text/html,<ai>"
  483. # [23:48] <zcorpan_> annevk: are your slides available somewhere?
  484. # [23:48] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  485. # [23:49] <Dashiva> Philip`: Then what happens when the browser discovers the HTML tutorials on the web? :)
  486. # [23:50] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  487. # [23:54] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("kthxbai")
  488. # [23:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: I suppose you'd have to keep it in a carefully-controlled offline environment and only give it access to a limited number of documents, else it's likely to go insane like anyone else who looks at too much HTML
  489. # [23:58] * annevk looks into putting his slides online
  490. # Session Close: Fri Jun 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)