/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 01 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] * annevk used the <u> element
  4. # [00:09] <annevk> Presentation is at http://www.w3.org/mid/op.ts7o3ua264w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com
  5. # [00:09] <zcorpan_> cheers
  6. # [00:09] <zcorpan_> (as in thanks, not as in bye :) )
  7. # [00:10] <zcorpan_> annevk: btw, you don't need class="one-liner"
  8. # [00:10] <zcorpan_> body > * { page-break-after:always; }
  9. # [00:11] <annevk> I think this is faster in browsers :p
  10. # [00:11] <zcorpan_> yeah yeah :P
  11. # [00:11] <karlUshi> annevk has made a very good presentation of html5 at the XTech lightning talk
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  14. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> annevk: lol at the plug :)
  15. # [00:19] <annevk> there were these Opera marketing people around :)
  16. # [00:19] <zcorpan_> ok :)
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  27. # [00:50] * Hixie comes back from meeting with the TAG
  28. # [00:50] <Hixie> they didn't kill me!
  29. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> did you get some soup?
  30. # [00:50] <Hixie> they are apparently reconsidering their versioning finding
  31. # [00:51] <zcorpan_> is that http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning ?
  32. # [00:51] <Hixie> i mean the one in www-arch
  33. # [00:51] <Hixie> but that document is part of the work they're doing yes
  34. # [00:52] * zcorpan_ isn't following what TAG are doing
  35. # [00:52] <Hixie> i wasn't either
  36. # [00:52] <Hixie> i pointed out to them that what they were doing wasn't really useful to the html work
  37. # [00:52] <Hixie> nor the css work
  38. # [00:52] <Hixie> they didn't seem horrified by this
  39. # [01:00] <zcorpan_> what is the finding saying? skimming that document didn't get me any wiser
  40. # [01:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: so they didn't hassle you about content sniffing?
  41. # [01:02] <Hixie> zcorpan_: that versioning information must be included
  42. # [01:02] <zcorpan_> ok
  43. # [01:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: they asked me what they could do. i suggested rescinding the mime type finding. we then discussed why the finding was great theoretically, but couldn't work in many cases.
  44. # [01:03] <othermaciej> neat
  45. # [01:04] <Hixie> i don't know if anything will happen
  46. # [01:04] <othermaciej> wow, the diagrams in that versioning finding hurt my brain
  47. # [01:04] <Hixie> (i don't really see the point of the tag frankly)
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  63. # [02:24] <zcorpan_> Hixie: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4329.txt
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  65. # [02:29] <Hixie> oh is that what he was referring to
  66. # [02:29] <Hixie> interesting
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  70. # [03:10] <Hixie> is "01/01/1970 00:00:00" any sort of standard date format?
  71. # [03:13] <gavin> mysql DATETIME?
  72. # [03:13] <Hixie> hm
  73. # [03:13] <gavin> hmm, no I guess that uses dashes, not slashes
  74. # [03:13] <Hixie> i was hoping for some RFC or something
  75. # [03:13] <Hixie> oh well
  76. # [03:13] <Hixie> it's not a format i recognise as being standard
  77. # [03:13] <Hixie> (it's the format document.lastModified uses)
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  82. # [03:21] <zcorpan_> new Date() return slightly different things in opera vs firefox/ie7
  83. # [03:21] <zcorpan_> opera has a comma after the weekday
  84. # [03:22] <zcorpan_> firefox/ie7 don't
  85. # [03:22] <Hixie> nice
  86. # [03:22] <zcorpan_> or well, there are more differences actually
  87. # [03:23] <zcorpan_> Fri Jun 1 03:23:36 UTC+0200 2007 (ie7)
  88. # [03:24] <gavin> hmm, we changed the format for lastModified Firefox 1.5
  89. # [03:24] <gavin_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99224
  90. # [03:24] <Hixie> does it match what i put in teh spec?
  91. # [03:24] <gavin_> - CopyASCIItoUCS2(NS_LITERAL_CSTRING("January 1, 1970 GMT"), aLastModified);
  92. # [03:24] <gavin_> + aLastModified.Assign(NS_LITERAL_STRING("01/01/1970 00:00:00"));
  93. # [03:24] <zcorpan_> Fri Jun 01 2007 03:23:44 GMT+0200 (firefox)
  94. # [03:24] <zcorpan_> Fri, 01 Jun 2007 03:23:47 GMT+0200 (opera)
  95. # [03:24] <gavin_> the person who changed it didn't change the comment that said "match what ns4.x returned", though :(
  96. # [03:25] <Hixie> so yes
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  98. # [03:27] <gavin_> it looks like they were just trying to match IE
  99. # [03:28] <zcorpan_> yeah. opera returns January 1, 1970 GMT
  100. # [03:28] <gavin_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107445#c6
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  102. # [03:30] <yod> # # [03:23] <Hixie> it's so sad seeing the w3c validator team try to make itself irrelevant
  103. # [03:30] <yod> how is listening to the decision of the WG in charge "making itself irrelevant"?
  104. # [03:30] <yod> or maybe the problem is that this WG is disagreeing with you?
  105. # [03:31] <yod> thinking like GW Bush is not making the web a favour, you know...
  106. # [03:31] <Hixie> the problem is the WG agreeing with the rest of the planet, and the validation team following them blindly
  107. # [03:32] <Hixie> but luckily we have the html wg now, and the html wg is defining this sanely, so the issue is moot
  108. # [03:32] <yod> then why the insulting comment?
  109. # [03:32] <Hixie> which part is insulting?
  110. # [03:33] <yod> "try to make itself irrelevant"
  111. # [03:33] <Hixie> that's not insulting, that's descriptive
  112. # [03:33] <Hixie> olivier decided to not fix a bug, because the htmlwg contradicted itself and olivier thought it wiser to follow them than to help the validator's users
  113. # [03:34] <yod> I'm olivier, BTW :)
  114. # [03:34] <Hixie> oh. well then i spoke to you just the other day on #html-wg about this.
  115. # [03:34] <yod> and I agreed with you
  116. # [03:34] <yod> on some of the issues
  117. # [03:35] <yod> but it doesn't change the fact that the xhtml WG is in charge of xhtml, and that the validator is supposed to follow what rules they set
  118. # [03:35] <Hixie> they haven't set any actual rules here. they have just made two contradictory non-normative statements.
  119. # [03:35] <othermaciej> the xhtml2 WG is not in charge of the text/html MIME type
  120. # [03:36] <othermaciej> but I'll agree the text/html media type is currently quite poorly specified
  121. # [03:36] <Hixie> othermaciej: the validator is claiming (as i understand it) that its not a text/html validator, it's an html4 and xhtml1 validator
  122. # [03:36] <Hixie> over which the xhtml2 wg does claim ownership
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  124. # [03:38] <zcorpan_> does anyone have a pointer to any of this?
  125. # [03:39] * zcorpan_ doesn't follow what is being discussed
  126. # [03:40] <Hixie> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070531#l-82
  127. # [03:41] * karlUshi thinks that some people would have better behavior in physical meetings than other IRC.
  128. # [03:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "Note: The dir attribute on the HTMLDocument interface is defined along with the dom content attribute." -- there is a "dom" content attribute?
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  130. # [03:52] <Hixie> oops
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  132. # [03:59] <zcorpan_> Hixie: btw, you may need to spec document.embeds too
  133. # [04:00] <Hixie> you know the drill -- send mails ;-)
  134. # [04:01] <zcorpan_> yup :)
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  161. # [07:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: where do you keep your character encoding tests?
  162. # [07:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: are they somewhere on damowmow? can't find them on hixie.ch
  163. # [07:33] <Hixie> which ones?
  164. # [07:33] <Hixie> you mean smontagu's?
  165. # [07:33] <Hixie> smontagu.damowmow.com?
  166. # [07:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC you had some tests when you wrote the encoding sniffing section
  167. # [07:34] <Hixie> that'll be in hixie.ch/tests somewhere
  168. # [07:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks like smontagu's tests are what I was about to write. thanks
  169. # [07:35] <hsivonen> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/ looks like it
  170. # [07:36] <hsivonen> nah. smontagu's tests lack the C1 range which is what I am interested in
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  190. # [09:50] <hendry> am I right in claiming that in some Web designs, that if the font the Web designer used in his design isn't availible and another one is substituted the design can really mess up?
  191. # [09:50] <hendry> like overlapping text et al?
  192. # [09:50] <Hixie> overlapping text shouldn't happen unless the designer in question didn't use 'em' units (e.g. setting line-height in px)
  193. # [09:51] <hendry> Hixie: right
  194. # [09:51] <hendry> though pixel based designs are all too common
  195. # [09:51] <hendry> http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/521334985/ # e.g. of overlapping text
  196. # [09:59] <mikeday> just means you need to install as many fonts as possible, starting with the Microsoft ones
  197. # [10:00] <hendry> mikeday: ah that's a solution I'm trying to avoid :)
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  199. # [10:01] <hendry> http://natalian.org/archives/2007/05/31/chinese-font/
  200. # [10:01] <hendry> for example the ms corefonts don't quite exist in CJK markets
  201. # [10:02] <mikeday> the other option is to hire a typographer to design fonts that match the metrics of the Microsoft fonts
  202. # [10:02] <mikeday> just as the Microsoft fonts were designed to match Times/Helvetica/Courier :)
  203. # [10:03] <mikeday> by the way, DejaVu looks likes Vera 'cos it's designed from Vera
  204. # [10:03] <mikeday> part of the license agreement for Vera is that you have to change the name if you modify it.
  205. # [10:05] <mikeday> Oops, looks like Red Hat is already doing that
  206. # [10:05] <mikeday> "Red Hat contracted with Ascender Corp., one of the leading commercial developers of fonts, to develop a set of fonts that are metrically equivalent to the key Microsoft fonts."
  207. # [10:06] <mikeday> https://www.redhat.com/promo/fonts/
  208. # [10:09] <hsivonen> hendry: in the case of DejaVu, adding glyphs to Vera as an open source project seems to work
  209. # [10:11] <hendry> hsivonen: could you add that as a comment? Or should I re-edit my rant? :)
  210. # [10:12] <hendry> mikeday: aha
  211. # [10:12] <hendry> mikeday: i also must add that info to the blog entry
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  215. # [10:15] <jruderman> i hope that isn't a font called "Serif". that would screw with http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#serif-def
  216. # [10:15] <hendry> hsivonen: ok, i have updated the blog entry, so no need to comment
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  221. # [10:35] <mikeday> Having a font called "Serif" is a bit silly, but I think in this case it is supposed to be "Liberation Serif"
  222. # [10:35] <mikeday> "Libre" would be a better name I think, but you'd need an accent on the e and that might confuse people :)
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  224. # [10:39] <Dashiva> Hixie: scrollIntoView says scrolling the document into view (instead of the element) in r852, parameter=true case
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  251. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: why deus the meta charset algorithm continue if the charset name is unsupported? That seems weird. Is it what browsers do?
  252. # [14:19] <hsivonen> s/deus/does/
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  261. # [16:31] <krijnh> annevk: verslaafde ;)
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  263. # [16:36] <annevk> hehe
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  313. # [20:59] <annevk> Questions today: does HTML5 provide more trivial shorthands for doing asynchronous requests (I showed the Google suggest code)?
  314. # [21:00] <annevk> Others have been asked before: how does <section> work combined with <h1> - <h6>, when will it be done, when will it be implemented, etc.
  315. # [21:05] <annevk> http://www.webdevout.net/tidings/2007/05/22/self-contradictions-in-the-html-wg/
  316. # [21:16] <om_food> annevk: did you see my datalist trick for doing an "ajax combobox" with basically two lines of html5 code?
  317. # [21:17] * om_food is now known as othermaciej
  318. # [21:17] <othermaciej> (not sure if these are your questions or someone else's)
  319. # [21:18] <annevk> <input list=foo oninput="list.data = '?p' + encodeURIComponent(value)"><datalist id=foo></datalist> ?
  320. # [21:18] <othermaciej> yes
  321. # [21:18] <annevk> yeah, I showed that one
  322. # [21:18] <othermaciej> the template thing Hixie and hyatt are working on would be even more general
  323. # [21:18] <annevk> I think people want more of where that came from :)
  324. # [21:19] <annevk> kk
  325. # [21:19] <othermaciej> and I think <datagrid> can also have an external data source
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  335. # [22:04] * hsivonen wonders why the charset meta sniffing algorithm bothers to upper-case attribute values
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  340. # [22:19] <hsivonen> lower-case that is
  341. # [22:23] <Hixie> it compares one of the attribute values, no?
  342. # [22:26] <Hixie> gotta love people who admit that the use cases are extremely rare but STILL want the feature
  343. # [22:29] <gsnedders> can we have every accessibility feature possible, regardless of the size of the use case?
  344. # [22:35] <Dashiva> What if we have invisible aliens who interact through sandpaper rasping sounds
  345. # [22:36] <annevk> There are probably simpler cases that are not addressed :)
  346. # [22:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, it says "If the next six characters are not 'charset'"
  347. # [22:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: is continuing when the tentative encoding is unknown the current browser behavior?
  348. # [22:42] <hsivonen> (sorry if you answered already and the answer slipped by my scrollback)
  349. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it intentional that the sniffing algorithm talks about supported encodings and not supported *rough ASCII superset* encodings?
  350. # [22:46] <othermaciej> one quirk in Safari is that if there's a meta tag claiming the source is utf-16, we treat it as utf-8
  351. # [22:46] <annevk> is that a bug or actually needed?
  352. # [22:46] <hsivonen> othermaciej: is that a bug that stuck or is it needed by content out there?
  353. # [22:47] <othermaciej> (that's assuming there was no content-type header claiming otherwise)
  354. # [22:47] <Dashiva> If it's utf-16, it wouldn't be able to decode using the ascii process, right?
  355. # [22:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there is content that needs it
  356. # [22:47] <othermaciej> and if it was really utf-16, you wouldn't have found the meta tag
  357. # [22:47] <annevk> got to love the web
  358. # [22:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok. what about UTF-32? :-)
  359. # [22:49] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-169-24-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  360. # [22:49] <Dashiva> The new scrollIntoView says to scroll the -document- into view for the true case. Am I right in seeing that as an error?
  361. # [22:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: dunno, haven't really looked into it recently. probably need to fix things up in the spec.
  362. # [22:51] <annevk> fyi: I heard lots of people complain about the charset finding byte algorithm
  363. # [22:51] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think we may treat any claimed unicode charset in a <meta> tag as utf-8
  364. # [22:52] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok
  365. # [22:52] * hsivonen sends an email to get this on record
  366. # [22:52] <othermaciej> (I think maybe same for xml declarations)
  367. # [22:52] <annevk> Why would people write UTF-8 and then claim it's UTF-32?!
  368. # [22:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that would be dirty and very un-XML :-)
  369. # [22:53] <othermaciej> annevk: because Win IE handles it?
  370. # [22:53] <othermaciej> hsivonen: maybe we just reject such cases for XML, I dunno
  371. # [22:53] <Hixie> annevk: any specific complaints?
  372. # [22:55] <othermaciej> actually we do hack it for xml declarations
  373. # [22:55] <othermaciej> if (source == EncodingFromMetaTag || source == EncodingFromXMLHeader || source == EncodingFromCSSCharset)
  374. # [22:55] <othermaciej> m_decoder.reset(encoding.closest8BitEquivalent());
  375. # [22:55] <annevk> Hixie, the English algorithm was more complex than the implementation, for one
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  377. # [22:56] <annevk> Hixie, hsivonen mentioned earlier that the algorithm "encouraged" look-ahead
  378. # [22:56] <othermaciej> closest8BitEquivalent currently only translates UTF16 (including BE and LE variants) to UTF-8
  379. # [22:56] <annevk> I believe jgraham had some thoughts about it as well, but I don't recall them
  380. # [22:56] <Hixie> annevk: ah, yeah, it's not as close to an implementation as the parser
  381. # [22:57] <Hixie> annevk: mostly because i didn't implement it :-)
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  389. # Session Close: Sat Jun 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)