/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 02 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:30] <Philip`> "If the next six characters are not 'charset'" - isn't that seven characters?
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  8. # [00:46] <Hixie> arguably, yes
  9. # [00:46] <Hixie> i mean, if you insist on precise numerical counting accuracy
  10. # [00:46] <Hixie> send mail :-)
  11. # [00:46] <kingryan> Hixie: you were counting from 0, right?
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  13. # [00:47] <Hixie> kingryan: i think even i would have trouble arguing that "charset" has length 6. :-)
  14. # [00:47] <Hixie> kingryan: otherwise, how long is the empty string? :-)
  15. # [00:47] <kingryan> there is no empty string
  16. # [00:47] * kingryan waves hands
  17. # [00:47] <Hixie> hah
  18. # [00:48] <kingryan> Math5
  19. # [00:48] <kingryan> to go with HTML5
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  27. # [01:31] <zcorpan_> annevk: did you get your t-shirt?
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  46. # [03:58] <kfish> moin
  47. # [03:58] <kfish> is there any way to specify the authorship / authority of subparts of a web page?
  48. # [03:59] <kfish> s/is there/are there any proposals for/
  49. # [03:59] <zcorpan_> <address>?
  50. # [03:59] <kfish> eg. if i wanted to say that the comments section of a web page was not authored by the site, could contain public comments ie. spam
  51. # [04:00] <kfish> basically, to set a nofollow attribute to an element
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  53. # [04:00] <zcorpan_> use rel=nofollow on the links
  54. # [04:01] <kfish> cheers :-)
  55. # [04:02] <zcorpan_> using an outer <article> for the main post and nested <article>s for the comments would indicate that the inner articles were actually comments
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  57. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> kfish - you on mixi?
  58. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> http://mixi.jp/show_friend.pl?id=299825 is me
  59. # [04:28] <kfish> MikeSmith, nice taste in music :-)
  60. # [04:28] <kfish> yeah cool, just sent you an invite
  61. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> you can join my 全日本酔払い連合 community
  62. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> All Japan Drunkard Association
  63. # [04:35] <kfish> hahaha :-)
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  93. # [09:33] <annevk> zcorpan_, yeah
  94. # [09:34] <zcorpan_> annevk: did you wear it at reboot?
  95. # [09:34] <annevk> no :(
  96. # [09:35] <zcorpan_> ok
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  101. # [09:53] <annevk> lol
  102. # [09:53] <annevk> the last e-mail about headers= is so confused
  103. # [09:53] <annevk> trying to read all kinds of silly meaning out of the HTML4 specification...
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  107. # [10:10] <hsivonen> annevk: FWIW, in angels-on-heads-of-SGML-pins discussions one might claim that #IMPLIED attributes are magically there. In Web reality, of course, an attribute can be present or not present in the DOM.
  108. # [10:14] <annevk> hmm, I was afraid of that
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  110. # [10:15] <othermaciej> I think it makes more sense to distinguish absent attribute from attribute set to default value
  111. # [10:15] <othermaciej> (not that my opinion has much relevance)
  112. # [10:15] <annevk> yeah, you're an implementor
  113. # [10:15] <annevk> go away!
  114. # [10:15] <annevk> oh wait
  115. # [10:16] <hsivonen> part of the problem is that SGML and Web have a different notion of what a default value is
  116. # [10:17] <hsivonen> in SGML the parser reports it. on the Web, the default isn't in the DOM but the implementation reading the DOM uses the defaults if stuff isn't in the DOM
  117. # [10:17] <annevk> if people could just accept that "the Web" and not "SGML-based HTML4" is the where we are starting from...
  118. # [10:17] <othermaciej> my opinion on what works or doesn't may be well-informed, my opinion on what makes sense is as arbitrary as anybody's
  119. # [10:17] <annevk> <div contenteditable> and <div> are quite different for instance
  120. # [10:18] <othermaciej> empty vs. null
  121. # [10:19] <annevk> yeah, in the new-world getAttribute() terms :)
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  123. # [10:19] <hsivonen> annevk: is there a new-world getAttribute() now? the old-world getAttribute() is definitely influenced by SGML thinking
  124. # [10:20] * hsivonen hasn't done enough JS DOM work lately: world view influenced by Java DOM
  125. # [10:20] <othermaciej> someone needs to make a DOM Core spec that's useful for browsers
  126. # [10:20] <annevk> getAttribute() returns null if no attribute is specified
  127. # [10:20] <annevk> as opposed to the empty string which is required by the DOM spec
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  129. # [10:21] <hsivonen> annevk: cool.
  130. # [10:21] * hsivonen has written a bug in Java assuming the intuitive behavior when the library implemented the spec
  131. # [10:23] * hsivonen wonders why the Java API designers assume that for character decoding I want to either recover from errors silently or treat them in a Draconian way but they don't offer reported recovery
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  136. # [10:39] <Lfe> i just found out about navigator.onLine.. it will work out quite nicely with google gears :)
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  138. # [10:40] <annevk> Lfe, yeah, in due course the ideas of Google Gears should be integrated with the rest of the APIs I think
  139. # [10:41] <Lfe> annevk: i agree. that's the kind of thing that needs to be "standardized" in order to work nicely
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  141. # [10:41] <othermaciej> there's already a SQL API in the spec, but the offline caching API needs to be worked out
  142. # [10:41] <othermaciej> and reconciled with what Mozilla did
  143. # [10:41] <annevk> and there are these worker thread APIs
  144. # [10:41] * othermaciej is a bit disappointed in Moz for not going to standards with their stuff sooner
  145. # [10:41] <othermaciej> the worker thread APIs are the simplest part
  146. # [10:41] <othermaciej> but also kinda the least useful
  147. # [10:42] <annevk> and you had some ideas about integrating persistent storage with the SQL stuff right?
  148. # [10:42] <othermaciej> well, just a throwaway suggestion
  149. # [10:42] <othermaciej> maybe there is a better way to integrate
  150. # [10:43] <othermaciej> but it bugs me that in the spec they are completely separate
  151. # [10:43] <annevk> otoh, the globalStorage stuff can go from key / value to key / object
  152. # [10:43] <annevk> so you can store arbitrary DOM objects and such
  153. # [10:45] <annevk> I suppose SVGDocument.title can just be dropped...
  154. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I don't see how storing an arbitrary DOM node could possibly give sensible results
  155. # [10:45] <othermaciej> or even storing a function
  156. # [10:45] <othermaciej> (you could stringify, then they it's just a dumb key / value pair)
  157. # [10:46] <annevk> you could store E4X objects or a Document which you can use as XML database
  158. # [10:47] <othermaciej> storing a Node can't preserve identity, which in the case of DOM objects makes a difference
  159. # [10:47] <othermaciej> unlike strings
  160. # [10:47] <othermaciej> if you store an element that's in the document and has children, when you come back to that doc later and retrieve it, it won't still be in the document
  161. # [10:48] <othermaciej> so if you save nodes, you get the equivalent of serializing / deserializing markup anyway
  162. # [10:49] <annevk> oh, you mean they become detached?
  163. # [10:49] <othermaciej> well, it can't preserve identity across document reloads
  164. # [10:49] <annevk> that seems fine
  165. # [10:49] <othermaciej> that just can't work
  166. # [10:49] <annevk> it's just that the browser does the serializing for you
  167. # [10:49] <othermaciej> yeah but it's also not any more useful than storing strings
  168. # [10:50] <hsivonen> annevk: considering how the DOM is implemented, storing DOM nodes seems like a huge pain
  169. # [10:50] <othermaciej> basically you're asking it to store .innerHTML instead of .toString()
  170. # [10:50] <Lfe> regarding the ManagedResourceStore.checkForUpdate() (how one should attain updated data) - gears seems to do a HTTP GET and compare mydata.currentVersion to the localized version string. Why not use HTTP HEAD / etag for this?
  171. # [10:50] <Lfe> (or similar techniques)
  172. # [10:50] <othermaciej> HTTP HEAD is broken enough to be useless in practice
  173. # [10:50] <hsivonen> annevk: if I stick some random function objects onto a C++-backed DOM node, what would you store?
  174. # [10:51] <annevk> hmm
  175. # [10:51] <annevk> at some point Hixie defined it
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  177. # [10:52] <annevk> but removed it based on feedback from Mozilla (too much work iirc)
  178. # [10:52] <hsivonen> annevk: doing an XHR-like save operation to a local store would be a lot simpler that JS/C++ object serialization
  179. # [10:52] <othermaciej> serliazing JavaScript functions in a way that round trips properly is nearly impossible
  180. # [10:52] <Lfe> othermaciej: isn't that up to the host to "solve"? a head/etag would save lots of potential kb's
  181. # [10:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: mmap :-)
  182. # [10:54] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the hard part is handling captured scope - there's no clearly right way to restore it across exit and subsequent reload
  183. # [10:55] <Lfe> ah, manifestUrl != resourceUrl
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  187. # [11:03] <Lfe> othermaciej: powernap?
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  189. # [11:04] <othermaciej> Lfe: no, saw something on another channel that caught my eye
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  194. # [11:51] <annevk> Shouldn't dir= default to something at some point?
  195. # [11:51] <annevk> Say, ltr for the root element...
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  208. # [16:17] <gsnedders> apparently unit tests can avoid the need for an XML serialiser.
  209. # [16:17] <gsnedders> (when it comes to creating well-formed XML)
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  217. # [17:08] <Jero> question: when the input stream is just "<html>", how are, according to the tree construction algorithm, the <head> and <body> elements created?
  218. # [17:09] <annevk> the current tree construction algorithm is not entirely correct as far as that goes
  219. # [17:10] <Jero> ah i see
  220. # [17:10] <annevk> html5lib is :)
  221. # [17:10] <Jero> so html5lib does stuff that isn't in the spec ATM to create those two elements??
  222. # [17:10] <Jero> ok :p
  223. # [17:11] <Jero> and do you think those steps will eventually be added to the spec?
  224. # [17:11] <annevk> we also removed the insertion mode switch
  225. # [17:11] <Jero> or is it just temporarily?
  226. # [17:11] <annevk> and made it all phases
  227. # [17:11] <annevk> the spec will be fixed, yes
  228. # [17:12] <gsnedders> some sites depend on it, so it does need to be fixed
  229. # [17:13] <Jero> annevk: yeah, I noticed html5lib does it differently than the spec
  230. # [17:13] <Jero> will that also be changed in the spec?
  231. # [17:13] <annevk> the spec has a note to that effect at the moment
  232. # [17:13] <gsnedders> Jero: html5lib's deviations are for compatibility with the web, so yes
  233. # [17:14] <annevk> but if Hixie decides to write the same thing down in some other way... so be it
  234. # [17:17] <Jero> okay, but the output of html5lib is still compatible with the spec i assume, even though it changed the steps to process the token?
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  236. # [17:17] <annevk> it's mostly equivalent
  237. # [17:17] <Jero> oh ok, than it doesn't really matter
  238. # [17:17] <Jero> bedankt :)
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  265. # Session Close: Sun Jun 03 00:00:00 2007

The end :)