/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 05 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
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  23. # [01:09] <Lachy> I've just been asked to write an article for A List Apart, but I'm not sure what to write about
  24. # [01:09] <zcorpan> can you write about anything you want?
  25. # [01:09] <Lachy> yeah
  26. # [01:11] <Dashiva> Did they indicate what kind of article they wanted?
  27. # [01:11] <zcorpan> write about the google gears <-> html5 conspiracy
  28. # [01:11] <Lachy> lol
  29. # [01:11] <Hixie> hah
  30. # [01:12] <zcorpan> :)
  31. # [01:12] <Lachy> what's the conspiracy?
  32. # [01:12] <zcorpan> dunno
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  34. # [01:12] <zcorpan> your call
  35. # [01:12] <Dashiva> It's not in html4, so it must be evil and proprietary
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  37. # [01:13] <zcorpan> if there's an ala article about it, then it has to be some conspiracy ;)
  38. # [01:13] <Lachy> I'll have to learn something about google gears then
  39. # [01:14] <Dashiva> Maybe you could work in the privacy scare about google street view
  40. # [01:15] <Lachy> :-D
  41. # [01:15] <Lachy> oh, and apparently I have to organise a 3 minute presentation for Web Jam this thursday
  42. # [01:15] <Lachy> I'm considering presenting the video element
  43. # [01:15] <jruderman> streets aren't private!? i better put some clothes on next time i walk to work.
  44. # [01:16] <Lachy> jruderman: just keep an eye out for an unmarked vehicle with cameras on the roof. Otherwise, you can continue walking to work naked
  45. # [01:17] <Dashiva> And make your cats knows how to draw the curtians
  46. # [01:17] <zcorpan> Lachy: did you see håkons presentation on the <video> element?
  47. # [01:17] <Lachy> no
  48. # [01:17] <zcorpan> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5545573096553082541&q=the+video+element
  49. # [01:17] <Lachy> oh, yeah, I think I did
  50. # [01:18] <Lachy> where can I find a build of Opera with support for <video>?
  51. # [01:19] <Dashiva> labs.opera.com I think
  52. # [01:21] <Lachy> thanks
  53. # [01:21] <zcorpan> entries in labs.opera.com don't have URIs?
  54. # [01:23] <Lachy> ok, now I need to find an example video (or make one). Any suggestions? Maybe I could take one from wikipedia
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  56. # [01:24] <zcorpan> http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/three.html
  57. # [01:24] <Lachy> thanks
  58. # [01:24] * zcorpan notes that that page contains a <DOCTYPE> tag
  59. # [01:25] <Lachy> lol
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  63. # [01:46] <Lachy> nice! http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/05/support-for-html-video-element-in.html
  64. # [01:56] * zcorpan wonders why most links that are posted in here are purple
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  66. # [02:06] <Lachy> does anyone know if there is any documentation available for which <video> features Opera supports in that build?
  67. # [02:06] <Hixie> .play(), .stop(), and .pause(), i think
  68. # [02:06] <zcorpan> see their proposal sent to the list
  69. # [02:07] <Lachy> ok
  70. # [02:07] <Lachy> I'm considering making a video of myself lip syncing to some song for the presentaiton. Any suggestions for a song?
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  72. # [02:09] <zcorpan> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6739710473912337648&q=lip+syncing
  73. # [02:10] <Lachy> I had one suggestion for a paris hilton song ;-)
  74. # [02:14] <zcorpan> which one?
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  76. # [02:27] <Lachy> he wasn't specific about which one
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  84. # [02:43] <Lachy> hmm, it's not working with the video I created. I converted a .mov to .ogg using ffmpeg2theora and it won't play in Opera
  85. # [02:44] <zcorpan> have you tried any other ogg file?
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  87. # [02:44] <Lachy> yes, the ogg I downloaded from those Opera demos works fine
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  89. # [02:45] <zcorpan> then i don't know
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  91. # [02:49] * om_out is now known as othermaciej
  92. # [02:53] <Hixie> hmmm
  93. # [02:54] * Hixie considers the "Attribute for holding private data for scripting" thread
  94. # [02:55] <othermaciej> role!
  95. # [02:56] <othermaciej> (j/k)
  96. # [02:56] <Hixie> actually i was thinking of dumping this into my "role" folder for later consideration, but it seems this actually has some use cases
  97. # [02:57] <Hixie> though the thread itself is free of any such information
  98. # [02:57] <Lachy> what are the use cases?
  99. # [02:57] <Hixie> that's my question too
  100. # [02:57] <othermaciej> I can give you some examples
  101. # [02:58] <othermaciej> dojo widgets in markup
  102. # [02:58] <othermaciej> they want to add key/value pairs to the markup for use by script code later
  103. # [02:58] <othermaciej> class only lets you give flat values, not key-value pairs
  104. # [02:58] <Hixie> do you have a sample uri showing this?
  105. # [02:58] <othermaciej> right now they just use nonstandard attributes
  106. # [02:58] <othermaciej> let me find you some example
  107. # [02:58] <othermaciej> s
  108. # [02:59] * Hixie was also told today that dojo was supporting role="", but has yet to see an example of that either
  109. # [02:59] <othermaciej> I have no idea what that would even mean
  110. # [03:00] <othermaciej> http://dojotoolkit.org/demos/email
  111. # [03:00] <othermaciej> look at the subframe source
  112. # [03:00] <othermaciej> a brief sample from the source:
  113. # [03:00] <othermaciej> <div id="treePane" dojoType="TreeV3" toggle="wipe" toggleDuration="500" listeners="treePaneController;treePaneIcons;treePaneSelector" sizeMin="20" sizeShare="15">
  114. # [03:00] <othermaciej> <div dojoType="TreeNodeV3" title="Mail Account" nodeDocType="FolderMailbox">
  115. # [03:00] <othermaciej> <div dojoType="TreeNodeV3" title="Inbox" nodeDocType="FolderInbox"></div>
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  117. # [03:01] <othermaciej> besides dojo, one assumes XBL widgets will want to be able to support some extended attribute-like key-value mechanism in the markup, without forcing the document to be nonconforming
  118. # [03:01] <Hixie> wow, that page is an accessibility disaster
  119. # [03:02] * Hixie looks
  120. # [03:02] <othermaciej> that's probably why they'd like to do some role-type thing
  121. # [03:02] <Hixie> there's a hell of a lot they could do before getting there
  122. # [03:03] <Hixie> like using actual list elements for their lists
  123. # [03:03] <Lachy> I am having no luck at all. If I encode the video using ffmepg2theora, the video won't play in Opera. If I encode it using VLC, it will play but there's no sound :-(
  124. # [03:03] <othermaciej> it's kind of div soup
  125. # [03:04] <Hixie> just disable styles to see what i mean
  126. # [03:04] <Hixie> there's no reason a page should depend on css that much
  127. # [03:04] <Hixie> to be usable
  128. # [03:04] <othermaciej> at least they use real checkboxes and buttons
  129. # [03:05] <othermaciej> anyway, point being, this is an example of a possible use case - I can't vouch for quality of their toolkit or even validity of this example
  130. # [03:05] <othermaciej> but it seems reasonable to me that for late-bound script or for XBL2 you will want something that acts like extra attributes
  131. # [03:05] <othermaciej> and it would be nice if you could do that without making your document nonconforming
  132. # [03:06] <Hixie> yeah, i agree that there are use cases
  133. # [03:06] <Hixie> i'm studying them to see if i can find good examples and work out what the spec should say
  134. # [03:08] * weinigLap is now known as weinigFood
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  137. # [03:10] <Hixie> man, that demo page is a testament to irrelevant=""
  138. # [03:12] <Hixie> i'm not really seeing any good examples of custom attributes here though
  139. # [03:12] <Hixie> most of them are presentational
  140. # [03:12] <Hixie> the rest could be folded into class=""
  141. # [03:13] <Hixie> these pages are why i want to ban <div>
  142. # [03:13] <Hixie> god
  143. # [03:20] <webben_> Hixie: I think the place to look for functioning role examples would be the Mozilla access pages.
  144. # [03:21] <webben_> especially http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML#Sample_widgets
  145. # [03:21] <webben_> (if you want to UA support, best get yourself the accessibility toolbar from ICITA and Fire Vox)
  146. # [03:22] <webben_> although possibly things are already working with Window-Eyes and NVDA
  147. # [03:22] <webben_> not sure
  148. # [03:22] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=63 - man, like 10 proposals in one post
  149. # [03:24] <webben_> okay actually that page includes a checklist of what Window-Eyes JAWS and Zoomtext support already
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  153. # [03:27] <webben_> http://reefchat.overscore.com/ is probably the most fully developed current example
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  155. # [03:30] <webben_> information about using role in dojo is at: http://www.dojotoolkit.org/book/dojo-book-0-4/part-8-internationalization-and-accessiblity/accessibility/creating-accessible-wi
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  158. # [03:33] <zcorpan> wonder if it's possible to split a post in phpbb
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  168. # [04:29] <Lachy> woo hoo! I finally got a video of me to work in Opera :-)
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  198. # [07:33] <Hixie> woot, Folder/Directory "input-for-whatwg-dom" deleted.
  199. # [07:33] <Hixie> any requests for what I should work on next?
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  203. # [07:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: from my selfish point of view, it would be nice if you looked at the corner cases of character decoding and encoding sniffing
  204. # [07:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, it would be really nice to have the spec deviations of html5lib that anne was talking about addressed in the spec
  205. # [07:57] <Hixie> so parsing, then
  206. # [07:57] <Hixie> ok, i can do the parser next
  207. # [07:57] <weinig> Hixie: have you investigated the behavior of passing dom functions and attribute ecmascript/js null and ecmascript/js undefined?
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  209. # [07:57] <Hixie> there's only 400 outstanding comments related to the parser
  210. # [07:58] <Hixie> weinig: i'm kinda waiting to see what comes of heycam's DOM/JS spec
  211. # [07:58] <Hixie> weinig: i'm hoping i don't have to define any of this stuff
  212. # [07:58] * weinig nods
  213. # [07:58] <weinig> thanks
  214. # [07:59] <Hixie> all the e-mails i've received on the topic (to whatwg) are all waiting in input-for-whatwg-dom-js-integration
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  216. # [08:00] <weinig> Hixie: nice
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  218. # [08:01] <Hixie> so if heycam doesn't define it, i still have the list
  219. # [08:01] <Hixie> but i hope i don't have to do it
  220. # [08:01] <Hixie> :-)
  221. # [08:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks Re: "< Hixie> ok, i can do the parser next"
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  226. # [09:02] * hsivonen really should have IE7 available for testing... :-(
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  235. # [10:16] <annevk> woohoo
  236. # [10:16] <annevk> parsing :)
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  238. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - get a macbook and run parallels with Linux and XP guest OSes:)
  239. # [10:26] * syp_ is now known as syp|
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  241. # [10:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my PowerMac is too new and fast to justify the expense of a new Mac.
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  243. # [11:09] <annevk> hsivonen, hey, you're making our parser lib harder to implement!
  244. # [11:10] * annevk wonders if DOCTYPE sniffing is like charset sniffing or if it's actually part of tokenization
  245. # [11:11] <hsivonen> annevk: it can be part of the tokenization unless you are IE.next
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  254. # [12:16] <annevk> http://open.info.nl/archief/2007/06/05/html-5-liever-vandaag-dan-morgen/
  255. # [12:17] <hsivonen> Google Translator does not support Dutch :-(
  256. # [12:17] <ddfreyne> the annevk translator does :>
  257. # [12:18] * hsivonen will try to read in German/English/Swedish quirks mode
  258. # [12:18] <ddfreyne> funny how the first "new" thing in html5 they mention is the doctype… as if that's what html5 is about
  259. # [12:20] <ddfreyne> ignore that
  260. # [12:20] <Philip`> Babel Fish makes a valiant effort at translating Dutch
  261. # [12:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  264. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> cool to see that he mentions the conformance checker
  265. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> is "ook" a real word in Dutch?
  266. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> I thought that was just a caveman word
  267. # [12:30] <ddfreyne> heh, it's dutch for "also"
  268. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> ddfreyne - cool, I think I'll start using that in english too -- I like it a lot better than "also"
  269. # [12:33] <annevk> It's also "too"
  270. # [12:37] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, they asked about it
  271. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> annevk - whose site is that (open.info.nl) ... I see lots of stuff in the webstandaarden category
  272. # [12:37] <annevk> Probably something to mention by default
  273. # [12:37] <annevk> MikeSmith, Dutch web company
  274. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> k
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  277. # [12:47] <annevk> What actually happens for <script></script><base>?
  278. # [12:47] <annevk> does the script get refetched?
  279. # [12:48] <annevk> or <script> document.write(<base>) </script> :)
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  284. # [13:29] <hsivonen> annevk: they == IE.next team?
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  289. # [13:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  290. # [13:47] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  303. # [14:11] <annevk> hsivonen, oops, meant to say that to Mike
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  305. # [14:55] <mpt_> hsivonen, you have wonderful nouns
  306. # [14:57] <mpt_> "walled-gardenism", "academic time sink", "charmod correctness fig leaf"
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  309. # [15:12] <hsivonen> mpt_: :-)
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  319. # [16:51] * annevk likes "blackbox reverse engineering"
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  324. # [17:19] <zcorpan> annevk: ie7 handles <base> the same in standards mode and quirks mode
  325. # [17:20] <annevk> I know
  326. # [17:20] <annevk> but how are the specific cases I mentioned above handled?
  327. # [17:21] <zcorpan> oh, this was re your mail to jonas
  328. # [17:22] <annevk> oh i know
  329. # [17:22] <annevk> oh, already said that :)
  330. # [17:24] <zcorpan> ah, so you meant that it would change to option 2, not option 3
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  337. # [17:33] * annevk is confused
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  339. # [17:35] <zcorpan> you said "I suppose 1 would be the option I pick although I wonder how long it takes before that starts breaking stuff too if people code towards the new IE7."
  340. # [17:36] <zcorpan> so, if stuff starts to break, i.e. if there are more pages that rely on ie7's behavior instead of ie6's, then it would switch to option 2 instead of option 1
  341. # [17:37] <zcorpan> i initially thought you meant that it would switch to option 3
  342. # [17:42] <annevk> ah
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  346. # [17:43] <annevk> besides the potential reparsing of stuff in <head> (do browsers actually do that?!)
  347. # [17:43] <zcorpan> dunno
  348. # [17:43] <annevk> there's also the issue of what to do with href= when it contains something like "www.example.org"
  349. # [17:44] <annevk> treat it as a directory name (Opera), domain name (IE7), or error (Firefox)
  350. # [17:44] <zcorpan> ie7 treats it as a domain name??
  351. # [17:44] <zcorpan> wow
  352. # [17:44] <annevk> (Firefox requires actual URIs iirc)
  353. # [17:44] <annevk> "complete URIs"
  354. # [17:45] <zcorpan> yeah
  355. # [17:45] <zcorpan> html4 doesn't allow relative uris
  356. # [17:45] <annevk> if only it defined error handling
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  371. # [18:49] <annevk> ah, Boris tells me what the answer is
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  430. # [22:36] <zcorpan> http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=8083&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0#53117
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  441. # [23:17] <gsnedders> apparently <p></p> isn't an empty element…
  442. # [23:17] <gsnedders> *is
  443. # [23:18] <zcorpan> gsnedders: why wouldn't it be?
  444. # [23:19] <gsnedders> zcorpan: SGML and XML both define <p/> (I know that's invalid) as empty element syntax
  445. # [23:20] <gsnedders> people are arguing that you can close tags with the self closing syntax in HTML, 'cos the validator says so.
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  449. # [23:29] <zcorpan> what it means in sgml depends on the sgml declaration
  450. # [23:30] <zcorpan> with the sgml decl for html4 it is valid and equivalent to <p>>, where the next / closes the P
  451. # [23:30] <gsnedders> zcorpan: that's my point
  452. # [23:30] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I'm being told it's valid, and equiv to <p></p>
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  455. # [23:33] <zcorpan> ok
  456. # [23:33] <gsnedders> which is plainly untrue.
  457. # [23:36] <othermaciej> gsnedders: <p/> in SGML includes the > in the text content, the validator even says so
  458. # [23:37] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I know
  459. # [23:40] <gsnedders> othermaciej: wait… how do you get the content to be shown under the new version of the validator?
  460. # [23:40] <othermaciej> gsnedders: don't know, I only remember seeing it on the old one
  461. # [23:41] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) ("needsleeeeeep")
  462. # [23:42] * LeeKowalkowski is now known as PotNoodle
  463. # [23:42] * Parts: PotNoodle (n=Miranda@user-54404d86.wfd75b.dsl.pol.co.uk)
  464. # [23:43] <gsnedders> ironically this actually came out of me complaining about people not knowing anything, yet claiming to always be right
  465. # [23:43] <gsnedders> I can cite as many specs as I want, but it all gets lost.
  466. # [23:52] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
  467. # Session Close: Wed Jun 06 00:00:00 2007

The end :)