/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-10 / end

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  74. # [11:44] <maikmerten> hello
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  76. # [11:49] <maikmerten> once again some stuff on the media elements... http://metavid.ucsc.edu/blog/2007/06/07/html5-video-the-future-is-now/ - this script will "enable" <video> for all browsers. If native <video> support is present the script will just keep the DOM as-is - if <video> it'll embed a Java applet to play back the media, and if Java isn't there it'll try to use <embed> and hope the client has a proper plugin
  77. # [11:49] <maikmerten> the problem I see: As far as I see there's no way to detect if the <video> implementation a certain format
  78. # [11:50] <maikmerten> I think you'll have to try to put a video on the page and see if it throws an error
  79. # [11:50] <maikmerten> (e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#mediaerrdecode )
  80. # [11:52] <maikmerten> now... we're in year 2015, browsers are around that support various MPEG codecs, Ogg Theora, Ogg Dirac, Hyper L33t codec and whatever
  81. # [11:52] <maikmerten> so the script would try to embed Ogg Theora... it fails.... now it'll go for Ogg Dirac.... nope. Then it goes for MPEG... nope. Ah, Hyper L33t works, pfew, lucky us
  82. # [11:53] <maikmerten> that may or may not take its time
  83. # [11:53] <maikmerten> so I wonder if media elements should carry some sort of information to carry information about formats supported
  84. # [11:54] <maikmerten> trial and error may not work in the long run
  85. # [11:56] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
  86. # [12:06] <maikmerten> (oh, and rereading my stuff I wrote above I can only say.... insert verbs wherever suitable... gargh)
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  92. # [13:08] <annevk> Lachy, you mean "Hixie, please sort this out"?
  93. # [13:08] <annevk> (re: offline resources)
  94. # [13:09] <annevk> maikmerten, why not just include all the <source> elements?
  95. # [13:09] * annevk doesn't see the need for inspecting first
  96. # [13:09] <webben_> maikmerten: How does your script handle fallback content for <video>?
  97. # [13:09] <webben_> <noembed> and alt?
  98. # [13:10] <maikmerten> annevk, the problem is that some content vendors only have a certain subset of formats available as fallbacks
  99. # [13:11] <annevk> maikmerten, just give the UA all the alternative <source> elements
  100. # [13:11] <maikmerten> so if vendor A only has files in format B it may be good to know if this format is supported before using <video>
  101. # [13:11] <annevk> why?
  102. # [13:11] <annevk> the UA won't fetch stuff it doesn't support
  103. # [13:11] <annevk> it will iterate through <source>
  104. # [13:11] <annevk> (unless <video> has src= specified)
  105. # [13:12] <maikmerten> hmm... k. So a media error is only thrown if ALL given sources fail
  106. # [13:12] <annevk> I think a media error is thrown only once a resource is actually fetched and it appears it isn't supported or can't be decoded
  107. # [13:13] <maikmerten> webben_, well, that script (it's not mine) just assumes <video> will support Ogg, there's no check to see if that has gone wrong
  108. # [13:13] <maikmerten> webben_, however, if <video> isn't supported at all it'll go for a Java applet to decode the video
  109. # [13:14] <webben_> I'm not talking about video not being supported so much as embed not being supported.
  110. # [13:14] <webben_> (or being disabled)
  111. # [13:16] <maikmerten> well, actually that script seems to use <object> for plugin fallbacks
  112. # [13:17] <maikmerten> oh, and <embed> as nested fallback for that
  113. # [13:17] <maikmerten> http://metavid.ucsc.edu/wiki_dev/mv_embed/mv_embed.js
  114. # [13:18] <maikmerten> annevk, well, as more crude example: The Wikipedia player first determines what options are available, then does document.write stuff to embed a viable solution. No DOM manipulation afterwards, it's basically Netscape 3 compatible stuff (blame this on me, I've provided the logic)
  115. # [13:19] <maikmerten> so once it determined "well, yes, there's a <video> tag with a play() method" it'll use that
  116. # [13:19] <maikmerten> which of course goes completely wrong if the browser doesn't happen to support that particular format
  117. # [13:20] <annevk> you can insert <video><source src=ogg type=someoggtype> <source src=mpg type=somempgtype> </video> ...
  118. # [13:20] <maikmerten> personally I'd like to know what it supports without trying... as trying would most likely also have server interaction
  119. # [13:20] <annevk> that would not be compatible with Opera's implementation fwiw, but the idea is that that's how <video> will work
  120. # [13:20] <maikmerten> yeah
  121. # [13:20] <annevk> of course, you can still do <video src=ogg> in which case the <source> elements will be ignored
  122. # [13:21] <annevk> maybe we should define it that <video src=> is the final fallback...
  123. # [13:21] <annevk> that would make the whole thing "backwards compatible"...
  124. # [13:21] <maikmerten> I have to read what the type attribute is working like
  125. # [13:22] <maikmerten> if I can specify <video src="blubb.ogg" type="application/ogg"> and that thing throws an error without first trying to download and play back the file if Ogg is not supported everything is perfectly fine
  126. # [13:22] <maikmerten> (or whatever valid value for type)
  127. # [13:23] <annevk> type= is not on <video>
  128. # [13:24] <Lachy> annevk: I didn't intend to imply for Hixie to have to sort it out himself :-), I just wanted to let others know about it and start a discussion incase someone knows more about it
  129. # [13:24] <maikmerten> annevk, ah, stupid me
  130. # [13:24] <maikmerten> annevk, no wonder I missed that ;)
  131. # [13:26] <maikmerten> annevk, but right, if <source src="blubb.media" type="application/someformat"> immediately makes sure the <video> element reports back an error if application/someformat isn't supported that's a rather elegant thing
  132. # [13:26] <annevk> Lachy, well, it has been around for several months and the Firefox guys so far have not submitted stuff...
  133. # [13:26] <annevk> iirc
  134. # [13:26] <annevk> I don't think it returns an error...
  135. # [13:27] <annevk> But you're able to find out if it does something with it...
  136. # [13:27] * annevk needs to study <video> some more at some point
  137. # [13:28] <maikmerten> would "<video id='file.media'><source type='some/mimetype'></video>" be a valid construction to determine if some/mimetype is supported?
  138. # [13:28] <maikmerten> I'd hope for the media element to have MEDIA_ERR_DECODE set
  139. # [13:29] <annevk> I think <source> would need to have src= set as well
  140. # [13:29] <annevk> However, I think the right way to go around it is to simply use it
  141. # [13:30] <annevk> and render let the fallback content handle it if it's not supported
  142. # [13:31] <maikmerten> okay, thanks for clarifying these issues
  143. # [13:32] <maikmerten> I now see all use cases that'd make sense being covered
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  147. # [14:35] <kfish> anyone working on open source implementations of <video>, please consider coming to http://www.annodex.org/events/foms2008/
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The end :)