/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 11 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  29. # [09:42] <hsivonen> annevk: re: "* annevk wonders why XML does not normalize character references" As I understand it, the consequences of CR-as-NCR were not considered by the WG that defined XML but the resulting spec language was retained for compat with shipped parsers
  30. # [09:42] <hsivonen> annevk: at this point, it seems easiest to copy the exact quirk to HTML
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  37. # [11:25] <annevk> hmm
  38. # [11:25] <annevk> it's ugly
  39. # [11:25] <annevk> then again, it's not that big of a deal
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  44. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> CRs can end up in the DOM anyway with createTextNode, no?
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  46. # [12:06] <annevk> So what I often do is using \r\n or sometimes incorrectly \n\r in JavaScript and put the result in some <pre> element
  47. # [12:06] <annevk> there's online a single linebreak in Firefox and IE and two in Opera if you have the \n\r sequence...
  48. # [12:07] <annevk> So I guess the CSS spec should say something about CR and LF one way or another if they indeed both end up in the DOM
  49. # [12:08] <annevk> Guess I'll have to test that at some point...
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  53. # [12:38] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges we're getting spammed :(
  54. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> annevk - maybe time to consider locking down the wiki - make an additional step where new users have to ask an existing user to add them to the authorized users group before they can edit
  55. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> most wikis seem to have gone that route because of scripted spamming problems
  56. # [12:47] <zcorpan_> or perhaps try the same thing we did to the forum
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  58. # [12:49] <zcorpan_> namely, change the captca input to name="email" and the email input to something else (NCR-encoded too iirc)
  59. # [12:49] <annevk> what did we do on the forum?
  60. # [12:49] <annevk> that worked well?
  61. # [12:49] <zcorpan_> yeah
  62. # [12:53] <annevk> I don't think I can do that though
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  64. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> annevk (or anybody) - can you remind me what the rationale was for making the acronym element non-conformant?
  65. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> authors are confused as to whether they should use abbr or acronym
  66. # [13:14] <annevk> making the language simpler
  67. # [13:14] <annevk> I suppose <acronym> will be defined to be equivalent to <abbr> for UA purposes
  68. # [13:14] <annevk> If we're going into that level of detail anyway...
  69. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> though i like opera's default styling of acronym... :)
  70. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> (small-caps)
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  72. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_, annevk - author confusion and make-the-language-simpler issues seems like a very subjective rationale for dropping it. And I would think that'd need to be weighed against fallout from the objective problem of authors taking existing instances they have that (X)HTML4 validators say are valid, then running them through an HTML5 conformance check and being confronted with conformance errors reported for all acronym instances.
  73. # [13:22] <zcorpan_> don't disagree
  74. # [13:24] <annevk> MikeSmith, changing an element name is quite simple
  75. # [13:25] <zcorpan_> but there's no benefit
  76. # [13:25] <zcorpan_> it's like changing <i> to <em> or vice versa
  77. # [13:25] <annevk> those are defined differently at the moment
  78. # [13:26] <annevk> limiting choice makes some sense in my mind and I don't think it's entirely subjective
  79. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> annevk - I agree that limiting choice makes a lot of sense, but I don't want to have to explain to N different authors why an HTML5 conformance checker is telling them that their HTML4-valid documents containing acronym instances are now considered non-conformant
  80. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> where N = many thousands
  81. # [13:32] <zcorpan_> that's the easy one compared to <img><p> ;)
  82. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_ - yeah
  83. # [13:39] <annevk> just tell them it's a bug in HTML4
  84. # [13:39] <annevk> that the W3C fixed
  85. # [13:40] <annevk> I guess I should draft up a W3C Note with differences from HTML4
  86. # [13:40] <annevk> at some point
  87. # [13:40] <annevk> and clearly state why the differences are there
  88. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> annevk - I would be willing to help out with putting such a Note together were you to draft it
  89. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> I think that (Note outlining HTML5 vs HTML4/XHTML1) differences is something that a lot of people/companies would find really helpful.
  90. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> some have in fact told me as much already
  91. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> so I think we ought to make it a priority
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  94. # [14:01] <Lachy> regarding <acronym>, I agree the only reason it should be considered for inclusion is to ease the migration from HTML4 to HTML5 for documents that use it (if it's really widely used), but it should be defined with identical semantics to <abbr>
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  98. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=9#322 - spam?
  99. # [14:35] <annevk> yes
  100. # [14:36] <zcorpan_> ok
  101. # [14:36] <Lachy> http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/06/07/thoughts-on-html-5/
  102. # [14:38] <annevk> whoa, hsivonen reviews a spec :)
  103. # [14:38] <Lachy> which spec?
  104. # [14:40] <annevk> mobileok
  105. # [14:53] <zcorpan_> perhaps i should review it too
  106. # [14:55] <gavins> hrm, gmail marked hsivonen's review of mobileok as spam
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  116. # [16:13] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cpre%3Ex%0Ax%3C/pre%3E%0A%3Cpre%3Ex%3Cscript%3E%20document.write%28%22%5Cn%5Cr%22%29%20%3C/script%3Ex%3C/pre%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%20alert%28encodeURIComponent%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B1%5D.childNodes%5B2%5D.textContent%29%29%20%3C/script%3E "proves" that scripts are normalized in some way too
  117. # [16:13] <annevk> oops
  118. # [16:13] <annevk> it doesn't
  119. # [16:14] <annevk> It does show (after some tweaking) that \r\n in the input stream becomes \n too
  120. # [16:16] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cpre%3E%3Cscript%3E%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.textContent%20%3D%20%22x%5Cn%5Cr%5Cr%5Crx%22%20%3C/script%3E%3C/pre%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%20alert%28encodeURIComponent%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.textContent%29%29%20%3C/script%3E is a better demo to play with
  121. # [16:18] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cpre%3Ex%3Cscript%3E%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.firstChild.data%20%3D%20%22x%5Cn%5Cr%5Cr%5Crx%22%20%3C/script%3E%3C/pre%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%20w%28encodeURIComponent%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.firstChild.data%29%29%20%3C/script%3E is one that works in IE
  122. # [16:19] <annevk> Interoperability is beatiful
  123. # [16:19] <annevk> beautiful*
  124. # [16:20] <annevk> Firefox breaks at \n for white-space:pre, IE at \r and Opera for both
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  132. # [16:49] <annevk> e-mailed WHATWG with results
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  138. # [17:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm back here now.
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  140. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I wanted to ask (encourage) you to put together a good command-line interface to your conformance checker if/when you have time.
  141. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> I've been messing around with it myself, but I know you could manage to put together something much better than I can manage.
  142. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> If we have that, people can start experimenting with integrating conformance-checking into IDEs and such.
  143. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> As in, IDEs that can parse the errors/warnings and use the line/column information to flag/highlight the places in the HTML source where the problems are.
  144. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I need to drop off for a while
  145. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> back on later
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  148. # [17:33] <krijnh> http://kilianvalkhof.com/2007/web/html5-improving-the-webwhen-its-done/
  149. # [17:34] <krijnh> Fans annevk! ;)
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  161. # [18:33] <zcorpan_> what does <textarea wrap=physical> do?
  162. # [18:34] <zcorpan_> same as wrap=hard?
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  164. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> doesn't seem to do anything in any browser
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  166. # [18:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: seen in the wild?
  167. # [18:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: For Java-based IDEs (and other Java apps) making the conformance embeddable with a clean API makes more sense. (on my todo list)
  168. # [18:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: a guy asks on a forum why it doesn't validate and what its replacement is
  169. # [18:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I put a command line tool on my todo list
  170. # [18:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: non-Java IDEs probably don't want to bear the JVM startup cost every time, so some kind of interprocess communication thing or a JNI montrosity is needed
  171. # [18:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for CMSs the plan for interprocess communication is a RESTful Web service API
  172. # [18:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't see any obvious reason why HTTP to localhost wouldn't work for other apps
  173. # [18:48] <hsivonen> afk again
  174. # [18:48] * annevk wonders what Henrik D is talking about
  175. # [18:48] <othermaciej> WWDC keynote coming up
  176. # [18:48] <othermaciej> for those who care
  177. # [18:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: is it streamed live?
  178. # [18:50] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there's a few places featuring liveblog commentary (engadget, gizmodo, etc)
  179. # [18:50] <othermaciej> dunno about streaming
  180. # [18:50] <othermaciej> I have to shut my laptop off now
  181. # [18:50] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok
  182. # [18:50] <othermaciej> there will be video after the fact I think
  183. # [18:50] * hsivonen goes jogging and will watch the video later
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  185. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - HTTP to localhost would work fine, but currently the conformance checker only supports http: URLs, right? (no support for file: ... )
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  187. # [18:55] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: http and https
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  197. # [19:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: currently the checker wants to fetch the document itself using http or https. The Web service would include the ability to POST the document to the checker
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  210. # [20:50] <zcorpan_> http://www.apple.com/safari/download/ -- safari for windows
  211. # [20:50] * zcorpan_ realises that most here might already know
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  220. # [21:05] * zcorpan_ can't get it to start on XP
  221. # [21:10] <Philip`> Ooh, it even does <canvas>, except it seems to be based on an old version of WebKit that has some Canvex-breaking bugs :-(
  222. # [21:10] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net)
  223. # [21:11] <Philip`> plus the bug that means I can't run my canvas tests without it crashing
  224. # [21:12] <zcorpan_> Philip`: it works for you on XP?
  225. # [21:12] <billmason> wfm on XP, fwiw.
  226. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> hrm. SP2?
  227. # [21:13] <Philip`> I'm using Windows 2000
  228. # [21:13] <Philip`> (on which it works)
  229. # [21:13] * billmason is using XP Professional SP2
  230. # [21:15] <zcorpan_> sigh... why doesn't it work for me
  231. # [21:17] <zcorpan_> perhaps it requires QT?
  232. # [21:21] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  233. # [21:22] <Philip`> Hmm, doesn't seem to have any more problems than WebKit-OSX at canvas rendering, which is nice, though it's limited to the few bits I'm testing and to my memory of what bits WebKit always breaks on
  234. # [21:24] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
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  237. # [21:32] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - nothing interestingly different (unlike WebKit-Qt which applies much more creativity to its rendering)
  238. # [21:34] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@47.80-202-66.nextgentel.com)
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  242. # [21:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I didn't see that one coming. Did Apple resurrect Yellow Box for Windows?
  243. # [21:53] <met_> dunno why many pages are broken in Safari 3 beta? e.g. mozilla.org (Safari 2 is ok)
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  246. # [22:07] <virtuelv_> anyone been able to get it running under Wine (Safari 3, that is)
  247. # [22:09] <Philip`> No - I get up to
  248. # [22:09] <Philip`> ...
  249. # [22:09] <Philip`> ;fixme:shell:URL_ParseUrl failed to parse L""
  250. # [22:09] <Philip`> wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000000 at address 0x6dc6ca5d (thread 0009), starting debugger...
  251. # [22:09] <Philip`> which isn't very useful
  252. # [22:10] <virtuelv_> well, you got further than me
  253. # [22:11] <Philip`> (Oh, now it doesn't get far either)
  254. # [22:11] <Philip`> Have you got as far as / beyond having problems with the C runtime?
  255. # [22:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-5af37f657bbacf84)
  256. # [22:14] <Philip`> (s/get far/get that far/)
  257. # [22:24] <virtuelv_> err:module:import_dll Library MSVCR80.dll (which is needed by L"C:\\Program Files\\Safari\\icuuc36.dll") not found
  258. # [22:26] <Philip`> Try http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/msvcrt.tar.bz2
  259. # [22:27] * Quits: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-b28f90eb21b9b085) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007040314]")
  260. # [22:27] <Philip`> (It doesn't work if you just copy the DLLs into c:\windows\system or something, because Microsoft decided DLLs were far too easy to understand so now there's this SxS system with manifests and everything so that programs have far more ways in which to fail to run without giving decent error messages)
  261. # [22:28] <Philip`> (and once you've written a program and made it work, you can install VS2005 SP1 and then it all stops again and you have to recompile all your libraries)
  262. # [22:28] <Philip`> (or at least that's my experience...)
  263. # [22:32] <virtuelv_> well, now I'm up to loading runtime library incorrectly
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  266. # [22:34] <Philip`> "An application has made an attempt to load the C runtime library incorrectly"?
  267. # [22:35] <Philip`> Hmm, do you have those three .dll and one .manifest file in the same directory as Safari?
  268. # [22:35] <Philip`> (I only get that message when the manifest is missing)
  269. # [22:36] * Joins: hendry (i=hendry@conference/debconf/x-a93ef6814679c305)
  270. # [22:39] <virtuelv_> wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00230000 at address 0x6b262e97 (thread 0009), starting debugger...
  271. # [22:39] <virtuelv_> Unhandled exception: page fault on read access to 0x00230000 in 32-bit code (0x6b262e97).
  272. # [22:39] <virtuelv_> I tried putting them in the windows directory firsdt
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  275. # [22:40] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  276. # [22:40] <Philip`> I have no idea what to do once it starts getting access violations :-)
  277. # [22:41] <virtuelv_> don't know if there's much we can do
  278. # [22:47] <Philip`> I'm not sure if Apple will be interested in bug reports saying "it doesn't work in Wine"...
  279. # [22:50] <met_> Philip` it has even problem with running under localized Win XP
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  287. # [23:15] <jgraham> Is there an list email relating to rev 880 ( Parse errors for <li> <dt> <dd> closing other elements)? I don't quite see what problem is being solved.
  288. # [23:16] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f7db958cfe087902)
  289. # [23:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: the problem being solved is making implicit closing of elements whose end tags aren't supposed to be optional parse errors
  290. # [23:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: and yes, there was an email to the list about it (reply to an old email of mine)
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  300. # [23:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks.
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  305. # Session Close: Tue Jun 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)