/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 14 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  39. # [07:37] <hsivonen> annevk: it would be super-useful to allow diffing using http://google-diff-match-patch.googlecode.com/ in the Tracker
  40. # [07:39] * hsivonen tries to figure out which tokenization states Hixie changed in rev 886. hard to see in diff -u
  41. # [07:43] <hsivonen> rev 886 is so cute
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  57. # [09:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: the data state
  58. # [09:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: so I figured using google diff patch match
  59. # [09:45] <Hixie> ah
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  63. # [10:13] <zcorpan_> what will <b>x<i>y</b>z</i> parse into? is it <b>x</b><i><b>y</b>z</i> or <b>x<i>y</i></b><i>z</i>?
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  65. # [10:29] <Fuzzy76> there is no definite answer to that, it will vary between browsers afaik
  66. # [10:30] <citoyen> Fuzzy76: I assume the question is related to what it will parse as following HTML5
  67. # [10:30] <Fuzzy76> handling of incorrect nesting is also defined?
  68. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> Fuzzy76: yes
  69. # [10:31] <Fuzzy76> I _really_ need to get through that spec some day :-$
  70. # [10:31] <annevk> ouch, <!-- and --> parsing in <style> blocks
  71. # [10:33] <Fuzzy76> Every time I say something in here I seem to lodge my foot in my mouth :p
  72. # [10:39] <annevk> that can be solved by reading the spec multiple times in multiple directions
  73. # [10:39] <Fuzzy76> heh
  74. # [10:39] <Fuzzy76> I'll take a note of that :)
  75. # [10:42] <Fuzzy76> heh. Opera print preview didn't like the specs... :p
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  77. # [10:43] <citoyen> printing is black magic
  78. # [10:45] <Fuzzy76> It just took a while :)
  79. # [10:45] <citoyen> it's a large file
  80. # [10:45] <Fuzzy76> 401 pages
  81. # [10:46] <zcorpan_> Fuzzy76: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/printing-wa10/
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  84. # [10:52] <annevk> It's funny. You ask for comments on the document itself and people start complaining about HTML5 terminology such as XHTML5
  85. # [10:55] <Fuzzy76> zcorpan_: Thanks for the tip. :)
  86. # [10:57] <annevk> Ah, the <script><!-- <script> --> </script> makes more sense now
  87. # [10:58] <zcorpan_> annevk: you mean <script><!-- </script> --> </script> ?
  88. # [10:59] <annevk> yeah
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  90. # [11:07] <annevk> I wasn't aware it had to do with <!-- and -->
  91. # [11:09] * annevk thinks it's kind of neat
  92. # [11:10] <hsivonen> annevk: your latest email to public-html probably had a copy-paste error
  93. # [11:11] <hsivonen> should it say ...(obviously) also not in XHTML5.
  94. # [11:13] <annevk> hmm
  95. # [11:13] <annevk> the attributes of elements, that are in HTML4 but not in HTML5, are not in HTML5
  96. # [11:13] <annevk> is what I'm trying to say although I wonder how useful it is given the amount of confusion
  97. # [11:14] <hsivonen> isn't it an obvious tautology that stuff that isn't in foo isn't in foo?
  98. # [11:14] * zcorpan_ would suggest to drop the paragraph
  99. # [11:14] <annevk> ok, dropped it
  100. # [11:24] <mpt> hsivonen, hendry: <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3791983.stm> describes millions of people who use Java embedded in Web pages
  101. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> annevk - What do you think of DanC's proposed introduction for the HTML5vs4 diff doc?
  102. # [11:25] <annevk> I'm working on that right now
  103. # [11:26] <annevk> The last paragraph needs some work I think
  104. # [11:26] <annevk> HTML became an application of SGML starting with HTML2
  105. # [11:26] <annevk> and I don't think any implementation ever had a fully conforming SGML parser
  106. # [11:29] <hsivonen> mpt: yeah, games are a case that I'd count as not benefiting from HTML embedding (i.e. better as WebStart)
  107. # [11:30] <hsivonen> mpt: I'm not trying to say that applet don't exist. I was just giving hendry my opinion that applets tend to always be a worse solution than WebStart or JavaScript
  108. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> hmm, I see Hixie recently changed part of the intro of the parsing section to read:
  109. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> [[
  110. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> The resulting confusion — with validators claiming documents to have one representation while widely deployed Web browsers interoperably implemented a different representation — has wasted decades of productivity.
  111. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> ]]
  112. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> just added the "wasted decades of productivity" part
  113. # [11:36] <mpt> hsivonen, I haven't used Web Start, but from screenshots I'm not sure that the target audience would understand it well
  114. # [11:37] <annevk> MikeSmith, I don't see that here...
  115. # [11:38] <annevk> I see that now though
  116. # [11:41] <hsivonen> mpt: WebStart does suffer from the same usability vs. security problem as MIDP
  117. # [11:42] <hsivonen> mpt: that is, the defaults are too secure and users are asked to authorize stuff they don't understand
  118. # [11:42] <mpt> MIDP?
  119. # [11:42] <hsivonen> mpt: Java on phones
  120. # [11:42] <hsivonen> mpt: the thing you use to run Opera Mini
  121. # [11:43] <mpt> Actually, I don't :-)
  122. # [11:43] <mpt> but thanks for the explanation
  123. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Opera Mini is the only useful use case I have so far
  124. # [11:43] <hsivonen> although I hear that Google Maps Mini is good, too
  125. # [11:44] <hsivonen> (My phone is too old for Google Maps Mini)
  126. # [11:44] <hsivonen> mpt: anyway, every time I start using Opera Mini, I have to clear an authorization menu, which sucks
  127. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - Opera Mini the only useful use case for MIDP?
  128. # [11:47] <hsivonen> judging from Wii and Maemo, having Flash support in a browser is a much higher priority than having Java applet support
  129. # [11:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so far for me, yes
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  141. # [13:13] <annevk> hmm, more expensive checks in the data state
  142. # [13:13] <annevk> there has to be a way to optimize that
  143. # [13:14] <hsivonen> annevk: in a couple of encoding test cases the #data marker lacks a newline after it
  144. # [13:14] <hsivonen> annevk: is there a good reason why?
  145. # [13:14] <hsivonen> annevk: in html5lib
  146. # [13:15] <annevk> I'm afraid I didn't make those
  147. # [13:16] <annevk> Ask jgraham
  148. # [13:16] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  149. # [13:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: in html5lib/testdata/encoding/tests1.dat there are a couple #data markers without a newline before the actual data. is this intentional? should I fix my harness or should you fix the test data?
  150. # [13:17] <virtuelv> today's fun Firefox bug
  151. # [13:18] <virtuelv> when the bookmarks toolbar is too small to content, Firefox continually dispatches a resize event on the document in view
  152. # [13:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: basically, when I am on a marker line, I skip until and including \n
  153. # [13:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: which fails
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  159. # [13:51] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  160. # [13:51] <hsivonen> now passing encoding test cases in tests1.dat except for the two with a weird #data marker
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  162. # [14:02] <hsivonen> argh. the html5lib encoding tests seem to assume a multicharacter delimiter
  163. # [14:02] <hsivonen> \n#
  164. # [14:05] <hsivonen> and there a place where there are two empty lines before #data
  165. # [14:05] <hsivonen> is the test case format documented somewhere? It seems that I've been making simplified assumptions about the format?
  166. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Parser_tests ?
  167. # [14:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: thanks but this is about the encoding sniffing test format
  168. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> ok
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  172. # [14:25] * hsivonen passes tests2.dat
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  176. # [15:20] <hsivonen> whoa! 13 JSON impls in Java to choose from
  177. # [15:26] <hsivonen> down to 3 candidates...
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  179. # [15:33] <annevk> hsivonen, I suggest e-mailing implementors@whatwg.org with html5lib issues
  180. # [15:39] <hsivonen> annevk: instead of filing bugs?
  181. # [15:42] <annevk> guess that might work as well
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  199. # [19:31] <KevinMarks> who do I need to persuade to not use <dt><dd> in <dialog> ?
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  203. # [20:10] <zcorpan_> KevinMarks: why not and what do you propose instead?
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  205. # [20:15] <KevinMarks> because it breaks assumed containment within <dl> and overloads the meaning
  206. # [20:15] <KevinMarks> I propose <q> instead of <dd>
  207. # [20:16] <KevinMarks> for <dt> you could use <cite>
  208. # [20:17] <KevinMarks> I can't see how using <dt> that ambiguously can make any sense
  209. # [20:18] <KevinMarks> <cite> and <q> have exactly the desired semantic as far as I can see
  210. # [20:18] <zcorpan_> <q> is a quotation from another source. in a dialog, you're not quoting from another source, it's direct speech
  211. # [20:19] <zcorpan_> also, html4 suggested <dl> for dialogs
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  213. # [20:19] <zcorpan_> so if you followed html4's suggestion it is straight forward to migrate to html5 (just change <dl> to <dialog>)
  214. # [20:21] <zcorpan_> finally, <dt><dd> have a good default rendering for dialogs in legacy browsers
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  216. # [20:30] * virtuelv agrees with zcorpan_
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  221. # [20:53] <KevinMarks> how is a definition closer in meaning to direct speech than a quotation?
  222. # [20:53] <KevinMarks> seriously?
  223. # [20:53] <zcorpan> <dd> is not a definition
  224. # [20:54] <zcorpan> in html4 it was, loosely, but it is defined differently in html5 (see the spec)
  225. # [20:54] <KevinMarks> it was defined as a definition in html3
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  227. # [20:55] <zcorpan> so?
  228. # [20:55] <KevinMarks> and 4
  229. # [20:55] <zcorpan> yes, i said that above
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  231. # [20:59] <KevinMarks> it is the redefinition I am objecting to
  232. # [20:59] <KevinMarks> it messes up semantic parsing assumptions
  233. # [20:59] <KevinMarks> by all means define new elements for speaker and direct speech
  234. # [21:00] <KevinMarks> but don't redefine others and destroy containment rules
  235. # [21:04] <KevinMarks> how is "description" closer in meaning to "direct speech" than "quote" is ?
  236. # [21:04] <KevinMarks> the spec even says "the discourse, or quote, part in a conversation (dialog element)."
  237. # [21:05] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("brb")
  238. # [21:05] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-b3889370c074b139)
  239. # [21:07] <KevinMarks> did you go away?
  240. # [21:13] <Hixie> how does it mess up any parsing assumptions? any parser that was looking for <dt>s or <dd>s without a <dl> is already broken anyway.
  241. # [21:16] <zcorpan> KevinMarks: in practice, <dl>s are used for all sorts of things. if you see a <dd> that is not inside a <dl> then it was probably used for indentation
  242. # [21:23] * weinigLap_ is now known as weinigLap
  243. # [21:35] * Quits: weinigLap (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-54ccba6e20d2cadc)
  244. # [21:40] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com) (".")
  245. # [21:45] <gsnedders> "The new content models only apply to the DOM and the XML serialisations, they can't be expressed in the HTML serialisation." — expressed in what way?
  246. # [21:48] <Hixie> in any way
  247. # [21:48] <gsnedders> but what do you mean by that?
  248. # [21:49] <KevinMarks> so you are saying "people use this ambiguously, so lets make the spec more ambiguous" ?
  249. # [21:50] <gsnedders> how can they be expressed in XML but not HTML?
  250. # [21:50] <zcorpan> KevinMarks: rather make the spec reflect the real world more closely
  251. # [21:50] <Hixie> KevinMarks: it's not made ambiguous, it's made much more precise than html4 ever was.
  252. # [21:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: in XML you could do ...<p><ul>...</ul></p>...
  253. # [21:51] <Hixie> gsnedders: in HTML you can't, since <p><ul> is equivalent to <p></p><ul>
  254. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: ah.
  255. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: would it be possible to have such an example in the spec?
  256. # [21:53] <Hixie> i thought i had
  257. # [21:53] <KevinMarks> "The term is given by the DT element and is restricted to inline content. The description is given with a DD element that contains block-level content." is clearer than "The dd element represents the description, definition, or value, part of a term-description group in a description list (dl element), and the discourse, or quote, part in a conversation (dialog element)."
  258. # [21:53] <gsnedders> I can't find any mention of the fact that it isn't possible in HTML now, even.
  259. # [21:54] <Hixie> 8.1.2.5. Restrictions on content models
  260. # [21:54] <Hixie> i could add an example
  261. # [21:54] <Hixie> send mail asking for one?
  262. # [21:54] <Hixie> KevinMarks: i disagree, but ok
  263. # [21:56] <KevinMarks> so <dd> now means quote, as does <q>
  264. # [21:56] <Hixie> no
  265. # [21:56] <Hixie> it doesn't mean quote
  266. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: hmm. the prose is clearer than I remember it being.
  267. # [21:56] <Hixie> a quote is something someone else said
  268. # [21:56] <zcorpan> "and the discourse, or quote, ..."
  269. # [21:57] <Hixie> in <dialog>, you might not be quoting anyone (e.g. in a screenplay)
  270. # [21:57] <Hixie> it CAN give a quote
  271. # [21:57] <Hixie> e.g. if the <dialog> is used for transcribing an IM conversation
  272. # [21:58] <zcorpan> yeah, ok
  273. # [21:59] <KevinMarks> Content inside a q element must be quoted from another source
  274. # [21:59] <KevinMarks> IM isn't anotehr source?
  275. # [21:59] <zcorpan> gsnedders: where did you quote that text from regarding content models?
  276. # [21:59] <gsnedders> zcorpan: from a snippet I had lying around of things to question :P
  277. # [22:00] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I can't remember the original source
  278. # [22:00] <zcorpan> ok
  279. # [22:00] <Hixie> KevinMarks: your question seems to imply that if you have a quote you _must_ use <q>.
  280. # [22:00] <Hixie> KevinMarks: which is not the case
  281. # [22:00] <Hixie> KevinMarks: i don't really understand what the problem is you are trying to report.
  282. # [22:00] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@posom.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  283. # [22:01] <KevinMarks> I'm saying <q> is a better SHOULD than <dd>
  284. # [22:01] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@posom.com)
  285. # [22:01] <Hixie> what for, and why? and what problem does this solve?
  286. # [22:04] <KevinMarks> what problem does redefining <dd> solve?
  287. # [22:04] * Joins: weinigLap (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-db9dcfaab2ddb1db)
  288. # [22:05] <Hixie> in <dialog>, you mean?
  289. # [22:05] <KevinMarks> what problem does <dialog> solve?
  290. # [22:06] <zcorpan> people don't know what markup to use for dialogs
  291. # [22:07] <Hixie> <dialog> solves the problem that people have come up with dozens of creative and highly verbose ways of transcribing conversations, none of which handled screenplays and scripts, and all of which were an absolute pain to use in practice. By introducing <dialog>, we can shortcircuit the entire problem with a short syntax, which happens to already work in legacy UAs.
  292. # [22:07] * Hixie looks at an e-mail from zcorpan asking for guidance on how innerHTML should handle namespaced nodes
  293. # [22:08] <zcorpan> pointer?
  294. # [22:09] <Hixie> 3 oct 96
  295. # [22:09] <Hixie> er
  296. # [22:09] <Hixie> 2006
  297. # [22:09] <Hixie> in it you suggest using the local names for these elements and dropping the prefixes
  298. # [22:10] <Hixie> it's not really clear to me that we shouldn't just raise an exception
  299. # [22:10] <Hixie> i mean, it's not like it's going to round-trip
  300. # [22:10] <Hixie> whatever we do
  301. # [22:10] <zcorpan> a lot of things don't round-trip innerHTML
  302. # [22:11] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("brb")
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  304. # [22:12] <Hixie> true
  305. # [22:12] <KevinMarks> so why is <dialog><cite><q> no good?
  306. # [22:13] <Hixie> because you're not citing or quoting anyone in many cases
  307. # [22:13] <Hixie> e.g. screenplays
  308. # [22:13] <Hixie> also, it doesn't really have a good backcompat story
  309. # [22:13] <Hixie> you'd end up with everything in one long line
  310. # [22:13] <KevinMarks> er, you're not defining anyone
  311. # [22:13] <Hixie> ?
  312. # [22:13] <Hixie> what do you mean?
  313. # [22:14] <KevinMarks> you are expanding the meaning of definiiton and term to include speaker and speech
  314. # [22:14] <KevinMarks> but you won't expand the meaning of cite to speaker and quote to speech
  315. # [22:15] <Hixie> we're not expanding the meaning of <dt> and <dd>. <dt> and <dd> when not in a <dl> mean absolutely nothing in HTML4.
  316. # [22:15] <Hixie> the <dt> and <dd> elements in <dialog> elements are entirely new, they just happen to have the same spelling as elements that are used in <dl> elements.
  317. # [22:15] <KevinMarks> so spell them <cite> and <q>
  318. # [22:16] <Hixie> <cite> and <q> have defined meanings everywhere, so we _would_ be redefining them
  319. # [22:16] <Hixie> we would also be doing them a disfavour, by removing the only thing they mean from them in certain cases
  320. # [22:16] <Hixie> and, probable most importantly, you would lose the backwards compatible renderingness
  321. # [22:17] <Hixie> you never answered the three questions i asked earlier: what for, and why? and what problem does this solve?
  322. # [22:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: do you remember what you reasoning was for dropping the prefixes?
  323. # [22:20] <KevinMarks> <dialog><cite>Kevin Marks</cite> <q>agreement</q></dialog>
  324. # [22:20] <KevinMarks> <dialog><dt>Kevin Marks<dd>dissension</dialog>
  325. # [22:20] <KevinMarks> legacy rendition looks OK for the former
  326. # [22:21] <Hixie> <dialog><cite>Kevin Marks</cite> <q>agreement</q> <cite>Ian Hickson</cite> <q>look again</q></dialog>
  327. # [22:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: at least two browsers do it
  328. # [22:24] <KevinMarks> <dialog><li><cite>Kevin Marks</cite> <q>agreement</q> <li><cite>Ian Hickson</cite> <q>look again</q></dialog>
  329. # [22:24] <Hixie> and now we're back to having the creative and highly verbose ways i mentioned earlier
  330. # [22:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: although i see now that safari does what ie does, which neutralises that point
  331. # [22:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: or actually tips it over to me thinking that keeping the prefixes is better (since it's harder to change ie) :)
  332. # [22:27] <Hixie> well this is all highly academic really
  333. # [22:27] <Hixie> but yeah
  334. # [22:27] <Hixie> so you're ok with leaving the same as is?
  335. # [22:27] <zcorpan> leaving what?
  336. # [22:27] <Hixie> the definition of innerHTML
  337. # [22:28] <zcorpan> right now it says what safari/ie do, right?
  338. # [22:29] <Hixie> i believe so
  339. # [22:31] <Hixie> afk for 20 minutes or so
  340. # [22:31] <zcorpan> ok. then yes, i'm ok with leaving it as is
  341. # [22:36] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La6db.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  342. # [22:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: however, none of ie, firefox, opera or safari change the case of the characters when a node is in a different namespace.
  343. # [22:48] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-69-142-103-232.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
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  346. # [22:48] <zcorpan> the spec doesn't say to change the case, but it says "(which is all lowercase)"
  347. # [22:52] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  348. # [22:54] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.143.253)
  349. # [22:55] <Hixie> back
  350. # [22:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: ok, i'll fix that
  351. # [22:58] * Joins: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  352. # [22:59] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  353. # [22:59] <zcorpan> hmm, testing "br" elements with contents, in different namespaces, has interesting results
  354. # [23:06] <Hixie> oh?
  355. # [23:06] * Quits: yod (n=ot@bas11-montreal02-1128537678.dsl.bell.ca) ("Leaving")
  356. # [23:06] <zcorpan> will upload tests
  357. # [23:10] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/dom/the-document/dynamic/in-html/ -- 001 and 002
  358. # [23:11] * Quits: Toolskyn (i=toolskyn@amy.bdick.de) (SendQ exceeded)
  359. # [23:12] <Hixie> wtf is firefox doing
  360. # [23:12] * Joins: kingryan_ (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  361. # [23:13] <zcorpan> it is printing the contents of the element first as child of the br, then omitting the end tag, then printing it again as sibling
  362. # [23:13] <zcorpan> for 002
  363. # [23:13] <zcorpan> safari and opera do the same but don't omit the end tag
  364. # [23:13] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  365. # [23:14] <Hixie> but... why?
  366. # [23:14] <zcorpan> no idea
  367. # [23:14] <zcorpan> :)
  368. # [23:15] <Hixie> i guess it's one of those things where the topic comes into play
  369. # [23:15] <zcorpan> perhaps they don't want to drop anything from the dom, and don't print out the contents of empty HTML elements, but instead print out them as siblings
  370. # [23:16] <zcorpan> then apply the same logic to non-HTML elements which results in the same being printed twice
  371. # [23:16] <zcorpan> ie seems to refuse to put contents in br elements
  372. # [23:16] <Hixie> well, the spec just has the contents be omitted
  373. # [23:16] <Hixie> which i think makes more sense anyway
  374. # [23:17] <zcorpan> yeah
  375. # [23:18] <zcorpan> it's not like anyone is using elements with the tag name "br" in another namespace, with contents, and then uses innerHTML
  376. # [23:18] <Hixie> indeed
  377. # [23:40] * Quits: hendry (i=hendry@conference/debconf/x-acb05a20d825c6e0) (Remote closed the connection)
  378. # [23:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  379. # [23:50] <Hixie> zcorpan: k, fixed that
  380. # [23:57] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@c-69-142-103-232.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  381. # Session Close: Fri Jun 15 00:00:01 2007

The end :)