/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-17 / end

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  16. # [02:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't have a good page to point to that i can think of. what's the argument, exactly?
  17. # [02:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: haven't looked at the svg/mathml thing. i don't think putting svg in html would make sense, though, and presentational mathml is nearly as bad.
  18. # [02:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: and the insertion point can be weirder than that iirc
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  24. # [04:40] <othermaciej> Sam Ruby puts SVG in XHTML
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  46. # [09:41] <met_> http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/blog/2007/06/17/fixing-the-web-fix-your-browser/
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  52. # [10:36] <Hixie> wow, molly sure is taking a beating
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  60. # [11:37] <annevk> ooh, quirks mode
  61. # [11:43] <Ducki> :O
  62. # [11:44] <annevk> Hixie, did you leave out almost standards mode with some hope that we might change some CSS stuff to pull almost and standards mode back together?
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  65. # [12:30] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0017.html "Furthermore XHTML2 maintains
  66. # [12:30] <annevk> backwards compatibility with HTML4 and XHTML1 in a way that we do not. It has no clean slate policy, but instead tries to maintain elements and attributes from prior W3C recommendations."
  67. # [12:31] <hasather_> annevk: hehe, wtf
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  75. # [13:23] <annevk> I think I've addressed most requests so far: file://localhost/home/annevk/projects/dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html
  76. # [13:24] <hasather_> annevk: that was localhost
  77. # [13:25] <annevk> cool
  78. # [13:25] <hasather_> :)
  79. # [13:25] <annevk> It's also checked in though: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html
  80. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: the rationale behind the semantic change complaint seemed to be that you are pulling the rug from under those who are authoring assuming previous de jure semantics
  81. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: The idea that SVG should be kept out of text/html because it is presentational is totally unconvincing. I don't see how things get any better--even theoretically--when you move a chunk of markup into an external network resource
  82. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you think my thesis, the Distler blog and Sam Ruby's blog would benefit from putting SVG into a separate HTTP resource?
  83. # [13:31] <annevk> "http://www.ibm.com/data/dtd/v11/ibmxhtml1-transitional.dtd"
  84. # [13:31] <annevk> heh
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  86. # [13:48] <kfish> hi ctford
  87. # [13:48] <ctford> hello all
  88. # [13:50] <ctford> does anyone know if the new <video> tag supports width and height attributes to force the browser to display it as a particular size?
  89. # [13:50] <ctford> i know there are videoWidth and videoHeight attributes, but they seem to refer to the native height of the video, not the size it's displayed at.
  90. # [13:50] <annevk> you size it with CSS and then the video scales to fit to the width and height
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  92. # [13:51] <annevk> (videoHeight and videoWidth are DOM attributes, not content attributes)
  93. # [13:51] <ctford> yep, makes sense
  94. # [13:51] <ctford> so could you do <video src=??? width=200 height=200 /> then?
  95. # [13:52] <annevk> just <video src=video>
  96. # [13:52] <annevk> video { width:100%; height:100% } in your CSS
  97. # [13:53] <kfish> annevk, so to give the browser a hint about the actual video dimensions, we'd have to generate the corresponding CSS with px values?
  98. # [13:53] <annevk> there's no way to give hints
  99. # [13:54] <annevk> there's a way to specify a size for the video frame in which the video will render (CSS)
  100. # [13:54] <annevk> if you don't use CSS the video will be displayed with its native height and width
  101. # [13:55] <kfish> sure, except that it might take a few seconds to determine that
  102. # [13:55] <kfish> but specifying the size of the video frame is what i was referring to anyway
  103. # [13:55] <annevk> I suppose one could argue that the size of a video frame is not presentational
  104. # [13:55] <annevk> dunno
  105. # [13:56] <annevk> for now there are no such attributes though
  106. # [13:57] <ctford> annevk: so you can't use a style attribute?
  107. # [13:57] <ctford> i know it's better practice to put it in a separate css stylesheet
  108. # [13:59] <kfish> ctford, putting it into a style element would be ok (not require generating a separate css resource for each video)
  109. # [14:00] <ctford> kfish: for our purposes it's probably best to put all the sizing in css, because that's where you'd be messing with the page layout and it's the page layout that determines what size you want the videos to be.
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  111. # [14:02] <kfish> yes, but if it's just width and height than that css can live inside <style> ... </style> in the page
  112. # [14:02] <annevk> ctford, style= is not allowed
  113. # [14:02] <annevk> <style> is
  114. # [14:02] <ctford> annevk: ah, thanks
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  117. # [14:03] <ctford> kfish: sure, it could live in the page, but the rest of the sizing info is in separate stylesheets right?
  118. # [14:05] <kfish> ctford, for cmmlwiki, the rest of the styling is static across the site, not dependent on the video content
  119. # [14:07] <ctford> kfish: yeah, so don't we have to force the video to be a certain height so that it fits in with the static sizing of the rest of the page?
  120. # [14:07] <kfish> ctford, -> #annodex :-)
  121. # [14:08] <ctford> :)
  122. # [14:08] <kfish> annevk, thanks
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  124. # [14:09] <ctford> cheers annevk
  125. # [14:11] <annevk> you guys working on some <video> project?
  126. # [14:12] <kfish> annevk, yeah, just putting support into cmmlwiki, eg. http://media.annodex.net/cmmlwiki/
  127. # [14:12] <kfish> which is a demo for annodex, which is about hyperlinked video
  128. # [14:12] <kfish> www.annodex.net :-)
  129. # [14:14] <kfish> we also work closely with xiph.org on ogg
  130. # [14:14] <annevk> cool
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  132. # [14:25] * annevk wonders how far Hixie is with parser feedback...
  133. # [14:25] * annevk wonders if he mentioned that Opera is doing </br> and </p> quirks in either parsing mode already
  134. # [14:25] * annevk ... lik IE
  135. # [14:44] <zcorpan> annevk: i did some testing on that before, can't remember if i have sent results to the list though
  136. # [14:45] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/stray-end-tags/
  137. # [14:46] <annevk> yeah, we have <BR> and <P></P> for 001 now
  138. # [14:46] <annevk> identical results in 002 and 003
  139. # [14:47] <annevk> wow, IE does it for a lot more elements...
  140. # [14:47] <zcorpan> indeed
  141. # [14:47] <zcorpan> </plaintext>!
  142. # [14:47] <annevk> h1-h6, address, ol, ul, etc.
  143. # [14:48] <Jero> yeah, you should check the innerHTML in IE for test 110 on http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/tests.html
  144. # [14:48] <annevk> fancy
  145. # [14:49] <annevk> Firefox does it 1) only in quirks) and 2) only for BR and P
  146. # [14:50] <annevk> I like </plaintext>
  147. # [14:50] <Jero> Safari does <p></p> in standards mode
  148. # [14:51] <annevk> Does Safari do <br> too?
  149. # [14:51] <zcorpan> Jero: are tests 50 and 83 up to date? (the spec changed recently)
  150. # [14:51] <Jero> only in 003
  151. # [14:51] <annevk> k
  152. # [14:51] <annevk> guess we'll get </br> and </p> in all modes at least
  153. # [14:51] <kfish> if anyone has a browser supporting <video>, try eg: http://media.annodex.net/cmmlwiki/SFD2005-Trailer
  154. # [14:52] <Jero> zcorpan: what changes are you referring to?
  155. # [14:52] <Jero> i got these tests from html5lib
  156. # [14:52] <annevk> Some tests in html5lib are now wrong
  157. # [14:52] <annevk> And some might contradict tests5.dat
  158. # [14:53] <Jero> these are only the tests from tests1.dat
  159. # [14:53] <annevk> those contain some errors now
  160. # [14:53] <Jero> do you know which tests (except 50 and 83)?
  161. # [14:54] <annevk> no, I haven't looked through that yet
  162. # [14:54] <annevk> I'm actually hoping someone else will update stuff...
  163. # [14:55] <Jero> also, what changes to the spec made the tests have errors?
  164. # [14:55] <annevk> the handling of <!-- and --> in <style>, <script>, etc.
  165. # [14:56] <zcorpan> Jero: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=885&to=886
  166. # [14:56] <annevk> the handling of "<" in tag / attribute names, attribute values
  167. # [14:56] <Jero> i've fixed the < in tags yesterday in my script
  168. # [14:56] <Jero> but not the handling of <!--
  169. # [14:57] <zcorpan> "<" is http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=899&to=902
  170. # [14:58] <Jero> yup, i had seen those
  171. # [14:58] <Jero> *have
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  173. # [14:59] <annevk> <!-- checking seems annoying
  174. # [14:59] <annevk> < is trivial
  175. # [14:59] <annevk> extended DOCTYPE parsing seems doable, but the big table makes it cumbersome
  176. # [15:00] <annevk> (for quirks mode checking)
  177. # [15:01] <annevk> one of the problems I have is that I don't have all the dependencies for html5lib anymore on my new machine so running the tests doesn't work...
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  179. # [15:16] <hsivonen> <style> compared to width= height= is awfully impractical
  180. # [15:17] * hsivonen doesn't mind having presentational stuff when it's practical
  181. # [15:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: for <img>?
  182. # [15:20] <Philip`> <div><style scoped>video { width: 300px; height: 150px }</style><video ...>...</video></div> still seems quite verbose (and non-backward-compatible)
  183. # [15:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: video
  184. # [15:21] <zcorpan> ok
  185. # [15:21] * Philip` guesses that <video ...><style scoped>video { width: 300px; height: 150px }</style></video> wouldn't work because the contents of <video> get ignored, but isn't sure what says that is true
  186. # [15:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: contents of video is still processed
  187. # [15:22] <Philip`> Oh, maybe it's not true
  188. # [15:22] <Philip`> "User agents should not show this fallback content to the user." - sounds like it's there but undisplayed
  189. # [15:22] <Philip`> in which case you could style videos in that way
  190. # [15:22] <zcorpan> if style scoped will affect the parent
  191. # [15:23] <Jero> is the scope attribute new?
  192. # [15:23] <Jero> *scoped
  193. # [15:23] <zcorpan> Jero: yes
  194. # [15:23] <Philip`> Oh, it does at the moment but I guess that could change
  195. # [15:24] <zcorpan> hm, wonder if it should be disallowed to put <style scoped> in head
  196. # [15:25] <Jero> yeah, that would seem like a good idea
  197. # [15:25] <zcorpan> and/or whether such elements should just affect the whole document anyway
  198. # [15:25] <Jero> i think the attribute should just be ignored
  199. # [15:25] <zcorpan> not sure
  200. # [15:25] <zcorpan> it makes implementation more complex
  201. # [15:27] <Jero> i doubt that
  202. # [15:27] <Jero> you could easily check whether or not the style element is in the head element
  203. # [15:27] <Jero> if so, ignore the scoped attribute
  204. # [15:27] <zcorpan> the alternative is to not check
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  206. # [15:30] <Jero> and let it be ignored you mean?
  207. # [15:33] <zcorpan> apply to the head
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  211. # [15:53] <Jero> zcorpan: that's almost the same :p
  212. # [15:54] <Jero> though, as the purist that I am, I'm still not sure if this is such a good idea
  213. # [15:55] <Jero> i understand the advantages of course, but I think having a more powerful styling language (CSS5) would be much better
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  216. # [16:12] <Lachy> not surprisingly, unicode case folding has not been implemented properly by browsers :-(
  217. # [16:24] <Jero> In the U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS (-) case of the data state ( http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-tokenisation.html#data-state ), why check if there are at least three character before the current character in the input stream?
  218. # [16:24] <Jero> oh nvm
  219. # [16:25] <Jero> i get it now
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  227. # [17:01] <Jero> zcorpan: I've implemented revision 886, thanks
  228. # [17:02] <zcorpan> Jero: if <style scoped> in head is non-conforming, the handling of it can be considered error handling. why make it more complex than it needs to be? it's not like there is content that depends on a particular handling
  229. # [17:02] <zcorpan> Jero: cool
  230. # [17:03] <Jero> zcorpan: true
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  237. # [18:56] * Lachy fixed several more issues in Selectors API http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/selectors-api/Overview.src.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=UTF-8
  238. # [19:11] * Quits: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net) ("ciao")
  239. # [19:47] <Jero> oh snap, i had been working for a couple hours on a bug that i thought was in my implementation of the adoption agency algorithm
  240. # [19:48] <Jero> but it turned out that i forgot to change the first character of closing tags from upper to lower case... </frustrations>
  241. # [19:50] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@208.18.85.28)
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  243. # [20:08] * Joins: hendry (i=hendry@conference/debconf/x-be99cf8895201e3a)
  244. # [20:12] <Jero> With "<p><b></p>" a </b> is generated. Should this B element remain in the list of active formatting elements?
  245. # [20:14] <Hixie> annevk: i left out almost standards mode because as far as html5 is concerned, there's no such thing
  246. # [20:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: re changing semantics -- we're not actually changing them, though. <i> and <small> are just broadened to cover non-visual cases, really.
  247. # [20:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: having SVG in an external resource emphasises the point that the resource is not part of the content, and makes it at least slightly more likely that an alternative aural presentation is given (e.g.).
  248. # [20:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: and if it's purely presentational, and thus would not have a visual equivalent, then it should be in hte stylesheet where it can be switched out
  249. # [20:19] <Hixie> Jero: unless the spec says to take it out, it stays in
  250. # [20:21] <Jero> ok, thanks
  251. # [20:56] * Joins: Ducki (n=Alex@dialin-145-254-189-215.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  252. # [20:57] * Joins: weinigLap (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-1a70b2ec233063fb)
  253. # [21:16] <zcorpan> "[ ] Notify me of followup comments via e-mail" -- wow, all blogs should have this feature (from http://dev.aizatto.com/2007/06/18/taking-a-peek-at-html-5/ )
  254. # [21:20] <met_> http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2007/06/whither_w3c/
  255. # [21:23] <Jero> zcorpan: most WP blogs have a separate feed just for the comments
  256. # [21:32] <zcorpan> Jero: true
  257. # [21:32] <jruderman> but then you have to add the feed manually, and remove it after a few weeks to avoid cluttering up your feed reader
  258. # [21:33] <jruderman> and you have to use a feed reader (i don't)
  259. # [21:34] <zcorpan> indeed, adding and removing feeds for all blogs you comment on is cumbersome. getting email is less so
  260. # [21:34] <zcorpan> s/blogs/blog posts/
  261. # [21:39] * om_afk is now known as othermaciej
  262. # [21:39] <jgraham> Hmm, it seems like a river-of-news style feedreader would work better for comment feeds since you wouldn't have old posts cluttering up the UI most of the time (though they'd still get checked I suppose)
  263. # [21:40] <jruderman> river-of-news?
  264. # [21:40] <jgraham> like planet or venus
  265. # [21:40] * Quits: hendry (i=hendry@conference/debconf/x-be99cf8895201e3a) ("ciao")
  266. # [21:40] <jruderman> ahh
  267. # [21:57] * othermaciej is now known as om_out
  268. # [22:14] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-15.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  269. # [22:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: Re: changing semantics: I think the issue has been raised often enough that we need a FAQ entry
  270. # [22:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I still entirely unconvinced about the practicality of your and annevk's stance regarding SVG in text/html. From my point of view, it is a feature parity bug between HTML5 and XHTML5 regardless of whether it's presentational
  271. # [22:21] <hsivonen> s/I/I'm/
  272. # [22:22] <jruderman> SVG in text/html!?
  273. # [22:23] <hsivonen> jruderman: yes. defining appropriate namespace assignment in the tree builder and a void element mode flag in the tokenizer
  274. # [22:24] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  275. # [22:25] <hsivonen> jruderman: I think publications like the Distler blog should be able to use text/html with math and vector graphics ending up in the right namespaces in the DOM
  276. # [22:26] <jruderman> what would the syntax look like?
  277. # [22:26] <hsivonen> <svg> ... </svg> and <math> .... </math>
  278. # [22:27] <hsivonen> jruderman: implicit namespace assignment based on <svg> and <math> subtree root
  279. # [22:27] <jruderman> what about foreignObject?
  280. # [22:28] <jruderman> or using an html:img as the denominator of a fraction?
  281. # [22:28] <jruderman> would those still require moving to xhtml?
  282. # [22:28] <hsivonen> jruderman: I guess having an <html> subtree in there should switch back to the XHTML namespace
  283. # [22:28] <jruderman> hmm
  284. # [22:30] <Philip`> Could it be done so that future extensions (like adding <x3d>...</x3d> or whatever) can degrade gracefully, rather than being treated like a collection of <span>s and text that will get misinterpreted by old UAs (and confuse search engines, etc)?
  285. # [22:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't know how to handle arbitrary vocabulary combinations without prefixing
  286. # [22:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: but I want to optimize for SVG and MathML
  287. # [22:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'd be OK with a hairier arrangement for arbitrary vocabularies if we really want to do those
  288. # [22:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: (I know that there are WG participants who want to)
  289. # [22:32] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe something like <svg xmlns>...</xml> so it's easy to remember/write but means browsers can easily determine that it's some XML extension and they should ignore it unless they understand what "svg" means?
  290. # [22:32] <Philip`> Uh
  291. # [22:32] <Philip`> <svg xmlns>...</svg>
  292. # [22:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: radical!
  293. # [22:41] <Jero> erm... SVG and MathML in HTML?
  294. # [22:41] <Jero> we might as well kill XML then...
  295. # [22:43] * Quits: SavageX (n=maikmert@T66d6.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
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  298. # [23:00] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  299. # [23:20] * Quits: Jero (n=Jero@d207230.upc-d.chello.nl) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]")
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  301. # Session Close: Mon Jun 18 00:00:00 2007

The end :)