/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-18 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Jun 18 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:24] <weinigLap> Hixie: you around?
# [00:25] <weinigLap> Hixie: I am a little confused about the Location object in the HTML5 spec
# [00:25] <weinigLap> Hixie: are the attributes supposed to readonly?
# [00:35] <Dashiva> weinigLap: They aren't actually readonly, as setting them maps to the assign() method
# [00:36] * weinigLap nods
# [00:36] <weinigLap> hence my confusion
# [00:37] <weinigLap> Dashiva: do you know why they are labeled readonly in the interface definition?
# [00:37] <Dashiva> The attributes are read-only
# [00:37] <Dashiva> You can't change them. However, setting them is treated as an implicit call to change the current location
# [00:38] <weinigLap> ah
# [00:38] <weinigLap> weird
# [00:38] <weinigLap> thanks though
# [00:59] <Hixie> weinigLap: i don't think they should be readonly... send mail?
# [01:00] <weinigLap> Hixie: pardon?
# [01:00] <weinigLap> oh, send you an email, my bad
# [01:00] <Hixie> sorry, yeah, i meant send mail to whatwg@whatwg.org to report the error :-)
# [01:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
# [01:01] <weinigLap> Hixie: doing it now, thanks
# [01:02] <Hixie> np
# [01:02] <Hixie> thanks you!
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# [02:54] * mpt wonders if <image/svg>, <application/mathml+xml>, etc would work
# [02:59] <othermaciej> would work in what?
# [03:12] <mpt> HTML
# [03:13] <mpt> instead of having the HTML specification containing yet another registry for document types
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# [03:22] <othermaciej> you intend those to be tag names?
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# [03:23] <othermaciej> I don't think that generalizes, some interesting XML languages don't have a specific MIME type assigned
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# [05:28] <Wolfman2000> Evening. Is there a link that shows what is planning to be deprecated in HTML5?
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# [06:00] <mpt> Wolfman2000, http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html#dropped-elements
# [06:01] <Wolfman2000> this helps: thanks
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# [07:46] <annevk> yeah, XBL doesn't have a MIME type
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# [08:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm awake now.
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# [08:36] <annevk> hsivonen, why is < more special than & or " or '?
# [08:37] <annevk> they're all non-conforming in the end
# [08:38] <annevk> jgraham, you around?
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# [08:47] <hsivonen> annevk: for unquoted attributes, no, they aren't all non-conforming in the end
# [08:49] <annevk> attribute values?
# [08:49] <annevk> oh, yeah
# [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: < is special, because it makes it look like a new tag is starting. but one isn't
# [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: so conformance checkers should be able to flag it for authors who are going WTF
# [08:49] <annevk> title=2<5
# [08:49] <annevk> there's a use case :)
# [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: also, it should be non-conforming to keep conforming docs reasonable safe for shipped Gecko and WebKit
# [08:49] <annevk> <a title=2<5> already works in Firefox
# [08:49] <hsivonen> oh
# [08:49] <annevk> I think "<" is only special cased in some other states in at least Firefox
# [08:50] <hsivonen> <a <title=2> doesn't
# [08:50] <hsivonen> annevk: good point
# [08:51] <hsivonen> anyway, I added warnings while I was at it in case Hixie disagrees about making it an error
# [08:52] <annevk> I don't think it should be more than an error than a Unicode character that looks like "a" or something
# [08:53] <hsivonen> I wonder how often Russians enter lookalikes by accident
# [08:55] <hsivonen> but yeah, I wasn't properly thinking about some of those cases getting caught on a higher layer
# [08:56] <annevk> I'm going to squash that bug in html5lib now I think
# [08:57] <annevk> And fix all the tests...
# [08:57] <karlUshi> <a title=q<p>math proposal</a>
# [08:57] <hsivonen> annevk: please considering applying my patches for the tests before making other changes that prevent the patches from applying
# [08:59] <annevk> at some point we should sort out math and ruby
# [08:59] <annevk> hsivonen, can't you commit them yourself?
# [08:59] <hsivonen> annevk: AFAIK, no
# [09:00] <karlUshi> <a title=/b</a>math proposal</a>
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# [09:03] <annevk> indeed you can't
# [09:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: you sent a mail about EOF having been dropped recently at some point from some sections in the tokeniser
# [09:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: did you see if they actually got dropped? i think i may just never have had them!
# [09:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: diff tells me you had them and dropped them
# [09:07] <Hixie> huh
# [09:07] <Hixie> any idea when?
# [09:08] <Hixie> i'd love to bring them back exactly as they were
# [09:08] <Hixie> totally wasn't my intention to drop them
# [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: had them on June 12. not anymore on June 17
# [09:08] <Hixie> ok, cool, thanks
# [09:08] <Hixie> that'll help
# [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: probably part of rev 886
# [09:08] <Hixie> the reason i was looking for you earlier was to ask you what the use case for embedded svg was
# [09:08] <annevk> maybe EOF and < were handled in the same way...
# [09:08] <hsivonen> (rev # from off the top of my head)
# [09:09] <hsivonen> annevk: they were
# [09:09] <Hixie> EOF isn't in the diff for 866
# [09:09] <Hixie> er, 886
# [09:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: the use case is including diagrams or graphs
# [09:11] <Hixie> aha
# [09:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: with application/xhtml+xml you can include them inline
# [09:11] <Hixie> 899
# [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. sorry. I was thinking of another recent rev
# [09:12] <Wolfman2000> Hixie: sounds like you know a lot about this HTML 5. Do you have any idea when it will eventually take over HTML 4?
# [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: so not being able to include them inline in text/html is a feature parity bug between the serializations
# [09:12] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: i wrote html5 :-) how do hyou mean, take over?
# [09:13] <Wolfman2000> There are some people in other channels that are worried of the progress of HTML 5. They wonder when/if HTML 5 will become recommended over HTML 4.01 Strict.
# [09:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: the fact that Jacques Distler, Sam Ruby and I intuitively want to include them inline when possible suggests that it is something that we think there's a point
# [09:13] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: it won't be finished for many years
# [09:14] <othermaciej> including XBL inline in HTML is surely useful
# [09:14] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: then again, html4 isn't really finished yet either
# [09:14] <othermaciej> and including SVG in inline XBL bindings for HTML is surely useful
# [09:14] <Wolfman2000> Also, I have a demonstration page about a potentially valid use for target="_top". Let me get it up on the server.
# [09:14] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: so...
# [09:14] <Wolfman2000> Hixie: ...html4 isn't?
# [09:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the diagram or graph is not shared between multiple docs and isn't binary, there's really no good reason not to if putting it inline is possible
# [09:14] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: it's full of bugs and errors (e.g. it says that media=screen is the default, not media=all)
# [09:14] <hsivonen> s/is possible/if possible/
# [09:15] <hsivonen> s/if putting/put/
# [09:15] * hsivonen hasn't properly woken up yet
# [09:16] <annevk> Wolfman2000, contrary to other implementations, HTML5 is driven by implementation
# [09:16] <Wolfman2000> Anyway, the page I mentioned: http://courses.ncsu.edu/csc234/lec/651/jaf_index.html This page won't stay up forever: it's a design that has become retired due to lack of proper disabled support.
# [09:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: should we also allow XBM inline? (just asking to find out where you think the boundary lies)
# [09:16] <annevk> Wolfman2000, so when the spec is done, it will be properly implemented
# [09:16] <annevk> Hixie, what's XBM?
# [09:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know what XBM is
# [09:16] <Lachy> did you mean XBL?
# [09:17] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: can you send your suggestion / help to me by e-mail? ian@hixie.ch (or whatwg@whatwg.org if you are subscribed)
# [09:17] <Wolfman2000> I'm not subscribed yet.
# [09:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: a text bitmap format
# [09:17] <Wolfman2000> What's the best way to subscribe?
# [09:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: i would have said PNG but that's not a text format
# [09:17] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: http://whatwg.org/mailing-list
# [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: but in general I'd be ok with being able to include any namespaced stuff with prefixes and optimize SVG and MathML to work without prefixes
# [09:18] <karlUshi> monchrome bitmap
# [09:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: hm interesting
# [09:18] <othermaciej> XBM is not an XML language
# [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess we shouldn't do XBM because it wouldn't work by just hacking the parser
# [09:18] <othermaciej> or indeed a markup language
# [09:18] <othermaciej> you could put it in a data: URL I guess
# [09:19] <Wolfman2000> awaiting confirmation email
# [09:19] <karlUshi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBM
# [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: but putting SVG or MathML in the DOM already works, so fixing the parser is relatively low-hanging fruit compared to generalizing to XBM
# [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: well fwiw i personally think it'd be great to have a math format and a vector graphics format in html. i think it would be a huge amount of work, though, and i think it would be highly controversial (so i don't plan on doing it anytime soon)
# [09:19] <Wolfman2000> ...on confirming the subscription request, can I use my preferred internet name instead of my real name?
# [09:19] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: yes
# [09:20] <Wolfman2000> Then consider me subscribed.
# [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, pushing text/html and *not* being able to include arbitrary namespaces is also controversial to some
# [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: and I'd expect SVG in text/html to have all the same warts as SVG in application/xhtml+xml
# [09:22] <Wolfman2000> ...so now that I'm in, all I do is send email to whatwg@whatwg.org and everyone sees it, right?
# [09:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think general svg-like or mathml-like syntax in html has reasonably straightforward ways of being done (far from easy, but at least not technically difficult)
# [09:22] * Wolfman2000 hasn't done this in awhile.
# [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: so fixing SVG to WHATWG quality is a more general problem than enabling it in parsing
# [09:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think a general-purpose namespaces system would be practically infeasible though in text/html
# [09:22] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: yup
# [09:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: would it be infeasible to hard-wire prefixes known to date and allowing the declaration of unknown prefixes?
# [09:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not including svg 1.1 in html5 unchanged (e.g. requiring xlink namespace prefixes), that would just be missing a massive opporunity
# [09:23] <Hixie> opportunity
# [09:23] <hsivonen> (I am aware that the list of known prefixes to date is long)
# [09:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: it couldn't be done just by using prefixes, that would have all kinds of issues (e.g. prefixes already do weird things in IE)
# [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: more weird than what the obvious prefix bindings would do?
# [09:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't really have any interest in a simplistic solution that just shoehorns XML syntax into text/html to be honest
# [09:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't see the advantage and the costs can be great
# [09:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, a general-purpose system would be more about fulfilling a bullet point
# [09:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: but anyway, this is something that's on the cards already
# [09:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: but special-casing SVG and MathML still has a point, I think
# [09:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
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# [09:28] <Wolfman2000> Email has been sent, webpage link included.
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# [09:43] <Wolfman2000> ...great. I just received an email saying my email to the group got...well, bounced. It's awaiting moderator approval.
# [09:43] * Wolfman2000 thought he just signed up.
# [09:43] <annevk> did you e-mail to the list you signed up for?
# [09:43] <annevk> there are four lists
# [09:45] <Wolfman2000> I thought I signed up to the right list. I then emailed whatwg@whatwg.org
# [09:45] <Wolfman2000> ...oh crap. I signed up for Implementors.
# [09:46] <Wolfman2000> so I emailed it to the wrong spot?
# [09:46] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: if it got stuck in the moderator queue you'll have to resubscribe, sorry :-|
# [09:46] <Wolfman2000> ...wha?!?
# [09:47] <Wolfman2000> one shot and that's it?
# [09:48] <Wolfman2000> ...strange. it still looks like I'm subscribed. At least...in Implementors.
# [09:48] <annevk> yeah, you have to subscribe to the other list
# [09:48] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: no i mean you'll have to subcribe to the other list
# [09:48] <annevk> and then e-mail your message again
# [09:48] <Hixie> Wolfman2000: the moderator queue is just a black hole
# [09:48] <Hixie> (we were getting too much spam for me to keep up)
# [09:49] <Wolfman2000> From this page: http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list I ended up subscribing to Implementors
# [09:49] <Wolfman2000> I assume there is a different page I'm supposed to go to then?
# [09:49] <annevk> use http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org
# [09:49] <annevk> (it's linked from that same page)
# [09:50] <Wolfman2000> ...oy. four of them.
# [09:50] <Wolfman2000> I'm assuming I should subscribe to all of them then?
# [09:50] <annevk> no
# [09:50] <annevk> just the ones you're interested in
# [09:51] <annevk> I suggest you read the page briefly first
# [09:51] <Wolfman2000> Probably a good idea.
# [09:54] <Wolfman2000> alright, covered. In the end...I think what I wanted the most was help-whatwg.org instead of whatwg.org
# [09:54] <Wolfman2000> about to re-send the email
# [09:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: fixed the EOF isue
# [09:55] <jgraham> annevk: I'm here now...
# [09:55] <Hixie> issue
# [09:56] <Wolfman2000> ...alright, chose to resend to the same place. Let's hope it doesn't go to the black hole this time
# [09:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: thakns
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# [09:59] <annevk> jgraham, it's already working
# [09:59] <annevk> jgraham, I didn't have chardet but that seems to be optional now
# [09:59] <jgraham> Great :)
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# [10:00] <jgraham> Less difficult questions early in the morning == good
# [10:00] <annevk> Currently fixing the new entity stuff by making a small dirty hack that scrapes the HTML5 spec
# [10:00] <jgraham> s/Less/Fewer
# [10:00] <annevk> well, the multpage version
# [10:03] <hsivonen> Safari appears not to have a chardet equivalent. does this mean that chardet is no longer needed on the real Web?
# [10:04] <hsivonen> Opera seems to have autodetection available but it is scoped to Cyrillic, Chinese, Japanese or Korean at a time
# [10:04] <hsivonen> what does IE7 do?
# [10:05] <Wolfman2000> hsivonen: charset detection? Hmm...hang on a second, while I test a certain webpage.
# [10:05] <hsivonen> Wolfman2000: yes
# [10:05] <Wolfman2000> ...I think it's still needed.
# [10:05] <Wolfman2000> http://foonmix.nothing.sh/ Use Shift_JIS
# [10:06] <Wolfman2000> I believe my options are set to use utf-8 by default
# [10:06] <Wolfman2000> does that help a bit hsivonen, or did I misunderstand?
# [10:08] <hsivonen> Wolfman2000: does IE7 have an autodetector?
# [10:08] <Wolfman2000> hsivonen: I'm unsure: I'm on a Mac.
# [10:08] <Wolfman2000> I was testing Safari
# [10:08] <hsivonen> what do Japanese Safari users do? do they use another browser or switch encodings manually?
# [10:08] <Wolfman2000> I needed to switch my encoding manually.
# [10:08] <Wolfman2000> But I'm an American Safari user, so...I don't know.
# [10:08] <Wolfman2000> Most Japanese people use Windows and IE. :(
# [10:09] <hsivonen> well, hooking up jchardet to my tokenizer is on my todo list
# [10:09] <hsivonen> I'd like to know, though, if passing only the first 512 bytes to chardet is enough
# [10:10] <Wolfman2000> I don't know how to test that. I've only just signed up, and I'm merely a simple TA/web designer
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# [10:32] <annevk> simonp
# [10:32] <annevk> :)
# [10:33] <zcorpan> @opera.com?
# [10:33] <annevk> yeah
# [10:33] <zcorpan> oh yep. didn't know i had an opera email already
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# [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: why did you remove "Otherwise, if the next character is a U+003B SEMICOLON, consume that too. If it isn't, there is a parse error.
# [10:36] <hsivonen> "
# [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: in entity tokenization
# [10:37] <annevk> because it is part of the entity name
# [10:37] <hsivonen> whoa
# [10:37] * hsivonen is only diffing the tokenization section
# [10:38] <annevk> I thought this entity stuff would be trivial to implement but it's not
# [10:38] <annevk> I think <object>, <video> etc. should allow block-level fallback...
# [10:38] <hsivonen> annevk: It took me a while to get the previous entity parsing right with minimal string object creation
# [10:38] <annevk> The new entity stuff isn't stable either
# [10:39] <annevk> Apparently IE does something different from this for attributes
# [10:39] <annevk> So maybe you should not fix that for now
# [10:39] <hsivonen> yeah
# [10:39] <hsivonen> actually, I did it without string object creation at all
# [10:41] <annevk> Hixie, it would be useful for other standards if HTML5 defined Almost Standards Mode for them
# [10:41] <annevk> Hixie, if we're going to keep it, that is
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# [10:53] <annevk> hsivonen, fixed the tests
# [10:55] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
# [10:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd like to make entity names without the terminating semicolon parse errors to help conformance checkers alleviate author confusion is the face of typos
# [10:56] * zcorpan agrees with hsivonen
# [10:57] <annevk> blah &amp blah
# [10:58] <annevk> zcorpan, have you changed your entity script to work for attribute values already?
# [10:58] <zcorpan> annevk: no
# [10:58] <zcorpan> i can do it though
# [10:58] <annevk> might be useful to see what IE does there (and how it compares to normal entity parsing)
# [10:58] <annevk> cool
# [10:58] <hsivonen> annevk: if IE is even remotely sane, the entity handling differences for attributes can be handled by loading a different entity table
# [10:58] * hsivonen hasn't tested
# [10:59] <zcorpan> hopefully it just is the same table without the entries that don't end with ;
# [11:00] <annevk> hsivonen, wouldn't that always be possible?
# [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, for easy scraping it would be nice to have the entity table lexicographically sorted
# [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: just mentioning this in case you edit it anyway
# [11:01] <annevk> hsivonen, there's a table scraping script
# [11:01] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't considered insane options :-)
# [11:01] <annevk> it's really easy
# [11:01] <hsivonen> annevk: pointer?
# [11:02] <annevk> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/python/utils/extract-entities.py
# [11:02] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
# [11:02] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess I'll add lex sort to the script
# [11:02] <annevk> just wrote that for my own usage, but integrating the new entity handling didn't work out to well
# [11:02] <annevk> hsivonen, can I add you to the html5lib project?
# [11:03] <annevk> so you can simply commit those changes yourself
# [11:03] <hsivonen> annevk: sure
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# [11:03] <annevk> you have a google account?
# [11:03] <hsivonen> hsivonen@gmail.com
# [11:04] <annevk> done
# [11:04] <hsivonen> thanks
# [11:04] <annevk> http://code.google.com/u/hsivonen/
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# [11:21] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/002.htm -- that is <img alt>... dunno if ie has different rules for <img src> or <a href>
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# [11:23] <annevk> could you another three columns for the non attribute case?
# [11:25] <annevk> IE actually differs for &entity; &entity and &entityX
# [11:25] <zcorpan_> sure
# [11:25] <annevk> I suppose &entity means &entity< or something?
# [11:26] <annevk> or maybe &entity followed by a space
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# [11:30] <annevk> what would be more useful I suppose if you checked the results using DOM methods and then just printed how they are supported... :)
# [11:32] <zcorpan_> yeah
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# [11:40] <hsivonen> where might I find a list of characters that are allowed (per spec) in unquoted attribute values in HTML 4.01?
# [11:40] <annevk> Should </br> also cause the active formatting elements to be reconstructed?
# [11:41] <hsivonen> (without spending hours trying to grok SGML myself after borrowing the Handbook from a library)
# [11:41] <annevk> I think it's [a-Z0-9]
# [11:41] <hsivonen> annevk: what about hyphens, underscores and the like?
# [11:43] <annevk> I'd think details would be in http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/appendix/notes.html
# [11:43] <annevk> but it doesn't seem like it
# [11:44] <annevk> "In certain cases, authors may specify the value of an attribute without any quotation marks. The attribute value may only contain letters (a-z and A-Z), digits (0-9), hyphens (ASCII decimal 45), periods (ASCII decimal 46), underscores (ASCII decimal 95), and colons (ASCII decimal 58). We recommend using quotation marks even when it is possible to eliminate them."
# [11:44] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/sgmltut.html#h-3.2.2
# [11:45] <hsivonen> LCNMCHAR ".-_:"
# [11:45] <hsivonen> yeah
# [11:45] <hsivonen> thanks
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# [12:04] <annevk> bah
# [12:04] <annevk> </br> is harder than it looks
# [12:05] <zcorpan_> ok, the good news is that ie does the same thing with entities in attributes for both <img alt> and <a href>
# [12:05] <zcorpan_> the bad news is that <img alt="&AElig"> works but <img alt="&AEligX"> doesn't
# [12:06] <zcorpan_> need to figure out which characters end entities
# [12:06] <zcorpan_> in attribute values
# [12:09] <annevk> ah, that's only for attribute values?
# [12:09] <zcorpan_> yeah
# [12:09] <annevk> quoted versus double quoted versus unquoted too maybe?
# [12:09] <zcorpan_> oh, that better work the same...
# [12:09] <zcorpan_> but i'll test it too
# [12:11] <hsivonen> when the generic facet of my validation service sees an XHTML 1.0 doctype in text/html, I will (in a future release) tokenize as HTML5 but validate as XHTML 1.0 and I'm going to say that this is bogus but I am doing it for the users' convenience
# [12:11] <hsivonen> should I make the message a warning or an error?
# [12:11] <hsivonen> "bogus" means error but "convenience" means warning
# [12:11] <zcorpan_> error
# [12:12] <zcorpan_> say that it isn't processed as xhtml by browsers unless the document is served with an xml mime type
# [12:12] <zcorpan_> or something
# [12:12] <virtuelv> annevk: doesn't most browsers interpret </br> as <br>?
# [12:13] <annevk> yes
# [12:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: makes sense.
# [12:13] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have an opinion?
# [12:14] <annevk> hsivonen, warning seems fine
# [12:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: or would it make sense to turn it into a warning if the user checked the lax content type checkbox?
# [12:14] <annevk> it's not actively harmful
# [12:14] * hsivonen is inclined to bind this to the lax type option
# [12:16] <hsivonen> doh. I'm already doing something else for the lax type option, so that doesn't work
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# [12:18] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: with the lax option set, wouldn't you process it as xml?
# [12:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes. I can't even remember anymore what the lax option does
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# [12:18] <hsivonen> the code for it is rather hairy, too
# [12:19] <zcorpan_> in any case, when you parse xhtml with the html parser, emit an error imho
# [12:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok
# [12:19] <zcorpan_> if, with the lax option, you parse text/html as xml, a warning is fine
# [12:20] <zcorpan_> back to entities: it seems any character except [a-zA-Z0-9] end an entity in attribute values
# [12:25] <annevk> so you basically consume chars until you hit something out that range
# [12:25] <annevk> hmm
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# [12:29] <zcorpan_> or you consume as many as possible that match the entity table, and for the longest match, check if the next character is in that range. if yes, emit the consumed characters, otherwise emit the entity
# [12:32] <annevk> ok, rearchitected my </br> fix
# [12:32] <annevk> should be easy to add </p> later
# [12:33] <annevk> and _tons_ of other elements that act like that...
# [12:33] <annevk> I love </plaintext>
# [12:35] <annevk> zcorpan_, assuming the entity table doesn't have ; that should work I suppose
# [12:36] <zcorpan_> yeah, the ; is not part of the entity name. we need to revert to the old table and instead have a third column that says which entities always require a ;
# [12:37] <annevk> and a fourth that says which entities require that for attribute values...
# [12:38] <zcorpan_> that is the same
# [12:39] <zcorpan_> unless the next character is [a-zA-Z0-9], in which case all entities require a ;
# [12:40] <annevk> how does that cover <a href="&region">&region</a>
# [12:40] <annevk> oh right
# [12:40] <annevk> interesting
# [12:40] <annevk> what about & as terminating character and ?
# [12:40] <annevk> or did you already try it for a big range?
# [12:42] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/004.htm
# [12:43] <annevk> good stuff :)
# [12:44] <annevk> maybe you should use <span> instead of <a> for 003
# [12:45] <zcorpan_> span doesn't have a href attribute :)
# [12:45] <annevk> use title :)
# [12:45] <zcorpan_> the point was to test a URI attribute
# [12:45] <annevk> ok
# [12:45] <zcorpan_> though i could use # if you don't want a lot of 404s :)
# [12:46] <annevk> I suppose that could help
# [12:47] <zcorpan_> done
# [12:48] <zcorpan_> sent results to the list
# [12:50] <annevk> heh, fun that you replied to my message :p
# [12:50] * annevk goes to fetch some food before it's gone
# [12:52] <zcorpan_> i thought it was appropriate as a reply :)
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# [12:55] <hsivonen> does IE7 support '?
# [12:56] <zcorpan_> no
# [12:56] <hsivonen> that's weird
# [12:56] <zcorpan_> yes
# [12:56] <zcorpan_> iirc i filed a bug on that during their "beta" stage
# [12:57] <hsivonen> gotta remember to make it a warning
# [12:57] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/test/ie7b2-bugs/014.html
# [12:57] <zcorpan_> opera doesn't support &TRADE;
# [12:58] * hsivonen adds a note in the source
# [12:58] <zcorpan_> annevk: is there a bug on that? (can i check that? :P )
# [13:17] * hsivonen wonders what's the best practice regarding memory allocation for growable buffers in a reusable library class
# [13:18] <hsivonen> that is, should I optimize speed and risk memory leaks?
# [13:18] <hsivonen> never leak memory and risk speed?
# [13:18] <hsivonen> or let the user of the library decide?
# [13:19] <hsivonen> annevk: does html5lib ever shrink buffers that grow depending on input? or does Python make these decisions for you?
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# [13:27] <annevk> zcorpan_, Opera does
# [13:27] <annevk> zcorpan_, fetch a newer build now you can ;)
# [13:28] <annevk> hsivonen, I'm not competent enough to answer that question
# [13:28] <annevk> hsivonen, I can say as much as that we don't have weird constraints anywhere to my knowledge
# [13:30] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
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# [14:14] <annevk> onload is broken in Safari: http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/safaribenchmarks.html ?
# [14:14] <annevk> you'd think that if onload is broken pages would be broken as well...
# [14:46] <Fuzzy76> I guess "broken" is a subjective term
# [14:47] <annevk> it certainly explains the statistics on the safari download page...
# [14:47] <Fuzzy76> yes... I've seen several other benchmarks, and none of them showed anything NEAR the numbers from Apple.
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# [15:20] <annevk> can someone explain to me how "After DOCTYPE public identifier state" and "Before DOCTYPE system identifier state" are different?
# [15:20] <annevk> seems like they could be merged
# [15:21] <annevk> i'll keep the separate for now...
# [15:24] * Philip` wonders if there's a reliable way to get multiple asynchronous XMLHttpRequests in flight at once (so the frequency of response arrival can be faster than the round-trip time)
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# [15:37] <annevk> wtf
# [15:37] <annevk> doctype name is no longer uppercase?!
# [15:37] <annevk> uppercased*
# [15:37] <annevk> this is problematic
# [15:39] <annevk> seems to be what Firefox does
# [15:39] <annevk> but the amount of testcases that relies on this quirk...
# [15:43] * annevk fixes tests
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# [15:55] <annevk> Soonish people should be able to use html5lib to determine whether a page will render in quirks or standards mode
# [15:57] <mpt> zcorpan_, what if someone really does want to style the <head> (e.g. head, title {display: block} title {font-size: 2em;})?
# [16:01] <annevk> you don't need a scoped style sheet for that
# [16:03] <Philip`> (Hmm, I can't fix my problem with XMLHttpRequest, but I can dynamically add <script> elements to the page while cycling through server port numbers so it has one outstanding request per port, since the scripts appear to get loaded asynchronously)
# [16:04] <Philip`> (Oh, but they're only asynchronous in Firefox, not Opera, so that won't simply work. But XMLHttpRequest appears to do pipelining in Opera, so I just need to switch between the two methods. And work out what to do for Safari...)
# [16:08] * Philip` can't quite find what HTML5 says should happen in terms of synchrony when adding a (non-async) <script> to the DOM
# [16:10] <Philip`> Oh, looks like it ought to be asynchronous, since the pausing is only done inside the tree construction algorithm
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# [16:15] <zcorpan_> mpt: if scoped stylesheets are changed to not affect their parent, then you couldn't use a scoped stylesheet for it anyway. and as anne says, you can already do that without scoped stylesheets
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# [16:16] <zcorpan_> btw, a girl here (at opera) will be implementing an html5 parser in c++
# [16:16] <Lachy> IE's cryptic error javascript error messages are really annoying :-(
# [16:16] <Lfe> zcorpan_: i would like her even more if she somehow left out those pluses ^_^
# [16:17] <zcorpan_> Lfe: heh
# [16:17] <Lachy> I'm writing a test case to test the toUpperCase and toLowerCase functions in JavaScript against the unicode data file
# [16:18] <Philip`> Could provide a C API around the C++ implementation, so it's easily embeddable in other languages (like C, or Python ctypes, or whatever)
# [16:18] <Lachy> so far, I've identified 3 bugs in Firefox within the first 500 chars (cause it takes far too long to process all 17000)
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# [16:21] <met_> looks like people are confused by all those storages http://ajaxian.com/archives/firefox-3-sqlite-and-more
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# [16:49] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/html5-opera.txt are things that i might write tests for this summer (thought probably less that that, that's just a first filtering)
# [16:50] <zcorpan_> anyone want me to look at something in particular?
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# [16:58] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't implemented anything that is in the tree construction part (yet)
# [17:07] <annevk> ah
# [17:07] <annevk> i just landed all that's needed to enable quirks mode checking
# [17:07] <annevk> someone just has to hook in some flag
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# [17:08] * annevk hopes jgraham can make it look prettier
# [17:09] <annevk> and we need to update the DOCTYPE token to handle systemId and publicId in case they are not None
# [17:10] <zcorpan_> comments before the doctype don't trigger quirks mode per html5? even bogus comments? iirc this triggers quirks mode in firefox: </ foo ><!doctype html>
# [17:10] <zcorpan_> but <? foo ><!doctype html> is standards mode
# [17:11] <annevk> </ foo><!doctype html> doesn't in Opera
# [17:11] <annevk> doesn't give you a comment token either
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# [17:13] <zcorpan_> </ foo><!doctype html> is quirks mode in ie7
# [17:15] <Philip`> XXX<!doctype html> is standards mode in FF too
# [17:15] <Philip`> (unless that > is pushed beyond the first 1024 bytes)
# [17:16] <annevk> So Firefox is sniffing before actual parsing?
# [17:17] <annevk> Guess that's why it's called "doctype sniffing" here and there
# [17:17] <zcorpan_> Philip`: :-O wow, i don't think that was the case before
# [17:17] <zcorpan_> annevk: yeah
# [17:19] <zcorpan_> Philip`: or perhaps i just didn't test that case
# [17:19] <hsivonen> annevk: or you could put JSON nulls in the array for public and system id when not present
# [17:20] <hsivonen> annevk: since that handles nicely the cases when only one is absent
# [17:20] <hsivonen> annevk: and you need to know which on
# [17:20] <hsivonen> e
# [17:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's weird. IIRC, around Mozilla 1.1 it wasn't like that.
# [17:20] <Philip`> It looks like FF must be doing some look-ahead before parsing - compare <!doctype xhtml>
# [17:20] <annevk> hsivonen, that's for the tokenizer tests
# [17:21] <annevk> hsivonen, I was thinking about the tree construction stage
# [17:21] <hsivonen> oh
# [17:21] <annevk> maybe I should handle the tokenizer tests first, prolly easier to make testcases too
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# [17:30] <annevk> hsivonen, should I use None in the tests?
# [17:31] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
# [17:31] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm assuming that your JSON impl. maps None to JSON null
# [17:32] <annevk> I'm talking about the test format
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# [17:32] <hsivonen> annevk: tree tests?
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# [17:33] <annevk> tokenizer tests
# [17:34] <annevk> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/
# [17:35] <hsivonen> annevk: JSON null please
# [17:35] <annevk> that throws an error somewhere else
# [17:36] <hsivonen> annevk: in your JSON to Python mapper?
# [17:37] <hsivonen> I'd expect a correct doctype to look like this: ["DOCTYPE", "HTML", null, null, false]
# [17:37] <annevk> the last one should be true I think
# [17:37] <annevk> as the flag is now "correct"
# [17:37] <hsivonen> argh.
# [17:37] <hsivonen> annevk: you are right, of course
# [17:38] <Philip`> More specifically: FF seems to do standards mode if the first 1024 characters from the first non-whitespace character onwards, parsed using quirks mode rules, contains at least one doctype, and the first doctype is a valid HTML one and is not preceded by any non-comment non-text nodes
# [17:38] <annevk> it seems all tests were a bit bogus with respect to that
# [17:38] <Philip`> (or something roughly like that)
# [17:39] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you sure parsing is in quirks mode initially?
# [17:39] * zcorpan_ should be heading home now so he doesn't miss the train
# [17:40] <Philip`> I think so -  results in two empty comments, instead of one comment with the text "><!doctype html><!" in it
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# [17:40] <annevk> ah ok
# [17:40] <annevk> I didn't have simplejson and hence I got some simplified json parser that didn't get null
# [17:40] <zcorpan_> but is the document standards mode or quirks mode?
# [17:40] <annevk> implemented null in it now
# [17:41] <zcorpan_> if quirks mode then the parser is initially in standards mode -- otherwise you would have seen the doctype in the pre-parse and switched to standards mode
# [17:41] <annevk> Philip`, <!--> should always be a single comment
# [17:41] <zcorpan_> i might have written something about this at sitepoint forums at some point
# [17:42] <zcorpan_> anyway, i'm leaving now
# [17:42] * zcorpan_ waves
# [17:42] <Philip`> If I do <!doctype html> then it is CSS1Compat and it says "#comment: ><!doctype html><!"
# [17:43] <Philip`> If I do  then it is BackCompat and it says "#comment","#comment"
# [17:44] <Philip`> so... it's parsing in standards mode, not finding the doctype, then re-parsing in quirks mode (and finding the doctype but not changing mode)?
# [17:45] <annevk> I have updated some of the tests
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# [18:46] <annevk> I fixed all the DOCTYPE tests and the tokenizer part of the implementation. I also added some more tokenizer tests to cover PUBLIC and SYSTEM ids.
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# [18:53] <rubys> annevk: you've been busy! :-)
# [18:54] <annevk> yeah, I feel a bit sorry for the ruby project
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# [18:54] <rubys> nah, won't be hard to catch up, the divs on the python code points the way.
# [18:54] <annevk> cool
# [18:55] <annevk> There are still some things to implement such as proper DOCTYPE tokens
# [18:55] <rubys> i'd like to wait to resync until you slow down...
# [18:56] <annevk> I'm about to go home
# [18:56] <annevk> so go ahead :)
# [18:56] <rubys> cool, and I see the python tests are passing, which is a good sign.
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# [19:00] <annevk> yeah, I fixed the tests along with the implementation although 3 are still failing
# [19:00] <annevk> I hope Thomas can fix that
# [19:00] <rubys> i don't see any failing... which ones fail for you?
# [19:00] <annevk> some sanitize and serializer tests
# [19:01] <rubys> I just tried again... no failures.
# [19:01] <annevk> hmm ok
# [19:02] <annevk> maybe I'm missing something
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# [19:44] <annevk> jgraham, have you looked at handling "comments" within RCDATA and CDATA blocks?
# [19:44] <annevk> jgraham, seems like we need some character buffer
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# [20:26] <jgraham> annevk: I was going to ask you the same thing :)
# [20:26] <jgraham> I haven't, yet
# [20:26] <jgraham> As I've been a bit busy
# [20:26] <jgraham> I was happy to see all your checkins today though
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# [21:02] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yes, exactly
# [21:07] <Jero> off topic: what do you guys think of this design? http://jero.net/lab/redesign2/
# [21:17] <zcorpan_> Jero: looks a bit like a standard template for a blog
# [21:19] <Jero> well, it is a blog ;), but i see what you mean
# [21:20] <Jero> I'll probably have to dust off my Photoshop skills and try to come up with something original
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# [21:32] <Hixie> annevk: we could define almost standards mode, but there'd be absolutely no detectable conformance criteria in the spec for it :-/
# [21:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: i thought the table _was_ sorted
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# [21:42] <Jero> for all those who care: I now implemented the entire tokenization and tree construction algorithms in my HTML5 parser in PHP (http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/)
# [21:42] <Jero> now to get rid of those bugs (http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/tests.html)
# [21:43] <Jero> (and optimizing might not be such a bad idea)
# [21:47] <rubys> jero: have you taken a look at html5lib's testdata directory?
# [21:48] <Jero> not recently, but the tests in my tests.html file are from the first test file
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# [21:59] <Hixie> annevk: defined almost standards mode
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# [22:36] <Hixie> jesus, <nobr> is wacked in html parsers
# [22:36] <Hixie> how are we gonna handle _that_
# [22:37] <Dashiva> Compared to what parsers?
# [22:40] <Hixie> how do you mean?
# [22:41] <Dashiva> Just wondered if there was somewhere it wasn't wacked, since you qualified the statement like that
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# [22:46] <Hixie> Dashiva: oh well like xml parsing
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# [23:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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# [23:54] <Philip`> Hmph, now I need to do canvas text rendering :-(
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# Session Close: Tue Jun 19 00:00:00 2007

The end :)