/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-19 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jun 19 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:11] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0375.html
# [00:11] <Hixie> o_O
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# [01:01] * Hixie wonders how it is "frequently unclear whether a suggestion is aimed at the language definition or at the browser behaviour specification"
# [01:01] <Hixie> isn't it pretty obvious?
# [01:03] <jgraham> Hixie: From Phillip's mail to public-html? That whole email made no sense to me.
# [01:03] <Hixie> i have to say i generally understand mails to whatwg a whole lot better than those to p-h
# [01:04] <Hixie> it's kinda annoying since it makes it harder for me to deal with the p-h ones
# [01:05] <jgraham> whatwg (still) seems to be where all the work is getting done... maybe we can change the tag line to "Putting the 'work' into working group" or somesuch ;)
# [01:06] <Hixie> no comment
# [01:08] <jgraham> I'm joking of course...
# [01:08] <jgraham> And, I think it is generally obvious what is a document conformance requirement and what is a US requirement
# [01:09] <jgraham> I also think the spec makes for a poor reference for authors
# [01:09] <Hixie> it certainly makes a poor reference to anyone who isn't technically minded
# [01:10] <Hixie> i'm not really skilled enough to write text that is both unambiguous and clear to non-technical people, sadly
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# [01:45] <Hixie> ok so my experience with JAWS is somewhat poor
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# [01:45] <Hixie> i can't even get past the first screen of the installer without accessibility problems
# [01:49] <Hixie> ok, got it past the first screen by cheating
# [01:50] <Hixie> it installed stuff, then said it had to reboot, and then crashed my machine hard.
# [01:50] <Hixie> had to hard-power-reset it
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# [02:26] <Hixie> holy fornicating rabbits, if jaws is the state of the art in speech reading software i'm not _surprised_ that accessibility people are so cranky
# [02:26] <Hixie> sweet jesus
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# [03:53] <Dashiva> I thought m12n was bad enough, now we have a11y?
# [04:05] <karlUshi> for a long time it seems http://www.google.com/search?q=a11y
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# [05:57] <Hixie> wow, the DOM that IE makes for <!DOCTYPE HTML><form> sure is... inretesting
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# [06:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm awake now
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# [06:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: i replied to mail instead
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# [06:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
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# [07:13] <Hixie> nearly done with this doctype thread
# [07:13] <Hixie> sheesh
# [07:18] <Hixie> yay, finally done with it
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# [07:32] <Hixie> i wonder why the definition for the HTML innerHTML setter starts with "Otherwise,"
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# [07:50] * hsivonen finds out he followed up to a post with already a large number of follow-ups that weren't properly threaded. :-(
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# [08:28] <hsivonen> annevk: my impl passed html5lib/testdata/tokenizer/test1.test on the first try after the new doctype stuff. yay
# [08:30] <hsivonen> test2.test revealed one bug. fixed
# [08:48] <Hixie> you guys have already got that implemented?
# [08:48] <Hixie> sheesh
# [08:48] <Hixie> talk about bleeding edge
# [08:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, I implemented the tokenization part--not yet the tree builder part
# [08:50] <Hixie> ah ok
# [08:52] <zcorpan_> </><!doctype html> is another interesting case (because the token doesn't reach the tree construction stage). though handled the same as </ foo ><!doctype html> in browsers
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# [08:53] <Hixie> yeah i
# [08:53] <Hixie> er
# [08:54] <Hixie> yeah i'm sure there are lots of edge cases that act slightly differently between the spec and browsers
# [08:54] <Hixie> those are usually the cases that aren't really important and that the browsers all do differently anyway
# [08:54] <zcorpan_> perhaps
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# [09:05] <hsivonen> people say that authors know HTML 4.01 and, therefore, they want to know the diff to HTML 5, but commentary suggests that usually people don't really know the HTML 4.01 details. witness optional tags
# [09:06] <Hixie> i keep saying that
# [09:06] <Hixie> people don't believe me though
# [09:07] <othermaciej> I love the people staring at gape-jawed horror at the optional tags
# [09:08] <othermaciej> and suggesting that XML syntax is a good way to teach HTML
# [09:08] <othermaciej> *shudder*
# [09:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the doctype 1024 bytes thing is firefox, not opera or ie. dunno about safari. reproducable from local disk
# [09:09] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yeah, i reproduced it eventually myself too (with your help)
# [09:09] <karlUshi> othermaciej: it is. XHTML syntax makes it a lot easier. believe me.
# [09:09] <karlUshi> By experience
# [09:09] <karlUshi> I have taught both languages
# [09:10] <Hixie> zcorpan_: doesn't seem to happen for only spaces, only happens if there's some thing before the doctype other than whitespace
# [09:10] <othermaciej> karlUshi: the problem is if you assume XML syntax actually applies
# [09:10] <othermaciej> and start doing things like <div id="placeholder" />
# [09:10] <othermaciej> or <script src="foo.js" />
# [09:11] <Hixie> btw, the html5 parser spec is starting to get good enough that when people report bugs with them, it's usually the case that the bug is actually in one browser and that most of hte other browsers don't have that quirk
# [09:11] <karlUshi> but it is not what people do :) this is a geek comment.
# [09:11] <zcorpan_> Hixie: you can have whitespace within the doctype, with nothing before the doctype. if the > is not within the first 1024 bytes then firefox gets quirks mode
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# [09:11] <Hixie> <script src="foo.js" /> is far too common
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# [09:11] <Hixie> so common we might have to in fact put it in the spec, though i really hope not
# [09:11] <othermaciej> <canvas /> is also distressingly common
# [09:12] * othermaciej apologizes for that one
# [09:12] <karlUshi> hehe
# [09:12] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i had 1024 x ' ' followed by a doctype and i got standards mode. but a bogus comment then 1024 x ' ' then the doctype, and it's quirks.
# [09:12] <Hixie> othermaciej: not so much on the web, only mostly in dashboard widgets, thankfully
# [09:12] * karlUshi is going to look for his whips in the closets. oh and ropes
# [09:12] <othermaciej> karlUshi: teaching people that some tags don't need a close tag seems simpler to me than teaching them that <foo /> is a self-closing tag, but can only be used for a fixed small set of tags
# [09:12] <karlUshi> it is not because it depends on the tag
# [09:13] <othermaciej> karlUshi: even though the XML spec you are nominally following says it can be used for anything
# [09:13] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i don't get standards mode with 1024 x ' ' followed by a doctype in firefox
# [09:13] <othermaciej> I agree that XML syntax would be easier to teach if you could actually use XML syntax
# [09:13] <othermaciej> but as it is, teaching a well-structured version of HTML syntax seems better
# [09:13] <karlUshi> plus things like I was typing yesterday on the channel
# [09:13] <othermaciej> (i.e. tell people to close non-empty tags that don't need it to avoid confusion)
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# [09:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: or wait, nm, you're right
# [09:18] <karlUshi> weeeell, from my *practical* teaching experience, xhtml rules create far less misunderstanding. and what I heard from most teachers is the same. But we might have had different contacts with different people
# [09:19] <othermaciej> a lot of people writing XHTML don't understand that the browser is not going to use an XML parser
# [09:19] <othermaciej> (possibly most)
# [09:20] <karlUshi> here again you see it on the geek side.
# [09:21] <karlUshi> it is not relevant for most people to know which parser is used.
# [09:21] <karlUshi> but for web developers when reading and maintaining the code it is relevant
# [09:21] <karlUshi> hmmm
# [09:21] <karlUshi> I have something in my head to publish on HTML viewed from different angles
# [09:21] <karlUshi> and people refusing to accept the other camps
# [09:22] <karlUshi> it is kind of funny because I do the same kind of arguments on both sides
# [09:22] <othermaciej> here's the thing, it's not just that people are unsure
# [09:22] <othermaciej> they are deeply factually convinced that XHTML is parsed as XML when served as text/html, or that at least it should be
# [09:22] <othermaciej> even prominent w3c working group members are often confused on this point
# [09:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: I definitely didn't mean to ask for a 1024 char limit when I asked for doing what Gecko and WebKit do
# [09:23] <karlUshi> it is not a problem for web developers :)
# [09:23] <othermaciej> when many people actively believe something false, that says to me there is a problem
# [09:23] <othermaciej> if web developers choose not to think about it that is one thing, but like I said many have an active belief that is contrary to fact
# [09:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: even w3c xhtml2 working group members are often confused on this point! and they invented the spec in question!
# [09:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah ok
# [09:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: good :-)
# [09:24] <othermaciej> if I believed my CPU was a PPC chip not an Intel chip, it probably wouldn't matter to me most of the time
# [09:24] <othermaciej> but the times that it does, it would seriously mess me up
# [09:24] <othermaciej> especially if I refused to accept evidence that it was indeed an Intel chip
# [09:25] <hsivonen> othermaciej: :-)
# [09:25] <karlUshi> othermaciej: good example. When does it really matter? I'm really curious.
# [09:25] * karlUshi having is life on macs for more than 10 years now
# [09:25] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
# [09:26] <othermaciej> karlUshi: as a developer, I have to care when writing inline assembly code, which is rare but sometimes necessary
# [09:26] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: people use things like <span/> and expect it to close itself
# [09:26] <Hixie> annevk: so you asked for  to be treated like
# [09:26] <karlUshi> othermaciej: here again, talking about ubergeeks
# [09:26] <Hixie> annevk: but it turns out only IE does that in no-quirks mode
# [09:26] <othermaciej> karlUshi: as a user, I need to realize that PPC-only binaries will be running in emulation and so will be slower and will use a lot of memory
# [09:26] <othermaciej> karlUshi: well, most people don't have to care what their CPU is
# [09:26] <Hixie> annevk: so, do we want to change no-quirks-mode comment parsing, or do we want to introduce a quirks-mode tokeniser difference?
# [09:26] <karlUshi> people who deals with xslt and xquery etc. Yes I agree with you will have to know what is XML
# [09:27] <karlUshi> not most web developers
# [09:27] <othermaciej> karlUshi: but if you call tech support and tell them you have a PowerPC chip instead of "I don't know", you could have problems
# [09:27] <othermaciej> it's better not to know than to be convinced of the wrong thing
# [09:27] <othermaciej> if you don't know, at least you know that you should look it up if you need to know
# [09:27] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the former, imho, unless it breaks pages
# [09:28] <Hixie> i wonder how to find out whether it breaks pages
# [09:28] <Hixie> hm
# [09:28] <karlUshi> Many people say they machine name at best, (sometimes the color and the shape) and when they bought it. The rest is
# [09:28] <annevk> am now
# [09:28] <annevk> Hixie, I think if IE does it it should be safe enough for other browsers
# [09:29] <annevk>  btw
# [09:29] <Hixie> (yeah)
# [09:29] <Hixie> hmm
# [09:29] <Hixie> that's a plausible argument i guess
# [09:29] <annevk> it is for parsing
# [09:29] <Hixie> right then
# [09:29] <othermaciej> karlUshi: right, many people don't know what their CPU is, but few are certain that it's something other than what it is
# [09:29] <annevk> if this was about DOM methods...
# [09:30] <Hixie> we'll see what browser vendors say when they try to implement it! :-)
# [09:30] <hsivonen> karlUshi: even if people don't know which CPU they have, they aren't vehemently believing that they have a different CPU than what they actually have
# [09:32] <karlUshi> interesting, I hear people from this group asking for being real with people, and then sometimes to have people to require extreme knowledge of the technology... when obviously xhtml syntax rules worked for most people and made them developer beautiful xhtml/css web sites. :)
# [09:32] <karlUshi> not. logical. at. all.
# [09:32] <karlUshi> anyway
# [09:32] <karlUshi> need to move my butt to the train
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# [09:33] * hsivonen wonders how misrepresenting testable facts is being real
# [09:33] <hsivonen> (i.e. teaching people that XHTML as text/html gets an XML treatment)
# [09:34] <annevk> I wonder what the difference is between learning for which tags you can write <foo/> and for which you always have to write <bar></bar> and learning HTML
# [09:34] <othermaciej> because the former is well-formed XML and the latter is tag soup
# [09:34] <hsivonen> on the bright side, even if XHTML brings out irrational beliefs it doesn't make people as hostile as syndication feeds :-)
# [09:35] <annevk> othermaciej, I see it now, makes perfect sense!
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# [09:37] * othermaciej takes a bow
# [09:38] <weinigLap> claps
# [09:38] <Hixie> ok this comment thing is going to be a bitch
# [09:38] <annevk> http://validator.whatwg.org/ is cool!
# [09:38] <Hixie> to get the right parse errors i have to add two new states!
# [09:38] <Hixie> annevk: heh, it's been there since forever (though it used to give a 403)
# [09:38] <Hixie> but the link seemed useful, indeed
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# [09:46] <MikeSmith> so what reason do you give to those already indoctrinated in closing-tag-required-on-empty-elements for why <script src="foo.js" /> is not conformant?
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# [09:48] <annevk> MikeSmith, IE doesn't support that?
# [09:48] <annevk> nor do lots of older browsers
# [09:49] <annevk> it's not backwards compatible at all
# [09:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: they're writing HTML4. And it's not conforming HTML4.
# [09:50] <Hixie> MikeSmith: for the same reason that {script} isn't conforming HTML4. it's just not HTML4's syntax.
# [09:57] <MikeSmith> or to point out that you can create a well-formed, valid XHTML1 document that is no HTML4-conformant ... ?
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> not HTML4-conformant
# [09:58] <othermaciej> it's pretty hard to make a document that's both conforming XHTML1 and conforming HTML4
# [09:58] <annevk> it's impossible
# [09:58] <zcorpan_> annevk: nope, you can play with PIs
# [09:59] <zcorpan_> they end with > in html and ?> in xml
# [09:59] * annevk wonders how that would solve stuff
# [09:59] <Hixie> it is indeed possible, though not at all useful
# [09:59] <hsivonen> IIRC, there's one on damowmow
# [09:59] <Hixie> indeed
# [10:00] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/html-or-xml.html
# [10:00] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/html-or-xml.xml
# [10:00] <Hixie> (same file)
# [10:00] <Hixie> technically it's not conforming to either HTML4 nor XHTML1, but it validates as both
# [10:01] <zcorpan_> Hixie: why is it not conforming?
# [10:01] <Hixie> PIs aren't allowed
# [10:01] <Hixie> iirc
# [10:04] <annevk> Hixie, do you want replies to e-mails where I agree with your response (even if phrased as question)?
# [10:04] * annevk isn't keen on flooding the list with "Yeah", "Yeah", ...
# [10:05] <annevk> Hixie, cool
# [10:05] <hsivonen> is a conforming application of SGML allowed to ban PIs?
# [10:05] * hsivonen guesses no
# [10:05] * hsivonen assumes HTML 4.01 isn't conforming
# [10:06] <zcorpan_> html4 says that authors are discouraged from using sgml features with little support in html uas, or some such
# [10:06] <zcorpan_> don't think xhtml bans pis
# [10:07] <zcorpan_> except in appendix c
# [10:09] <Hixie> annevk: no, don't bother sending mail unless you want me to change the spec
# [10:09] <Hixie> (i mean, you can, but i'm not tracking the issues that i've replied to, so it doesn't really do much)
# [10:10] <annevk> good
# [10:12] * hsivonen still does not understand why Java JSON impls don't inherit JSONArray from LinkedList and JSONObject from HashMap
# [10:13] <othermaciej> wouldn't you want an array to be an array, instead of a linked list?
# [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, thanks for aligning the quirks mode sniffing with the html5lib implementation (whether intentional or not)
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# [10:14] <othermaciej> also, wouldn't restricting the allowed key/value types for HashMap violate the Liskov Substitution Principle?
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# [10:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: given what "array" means in JSON, the obvious mutable Java mapping is an instance of the List interface
# [10:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm assuming an array in JSON is much like a JavaScript Array
# [10:16] <othermaciej> which is a sparse array, not a linked list
# [10:16] * othermaciej is not sure if JSON allows the elision syntax, if not, it's non-sparse
# [10:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: not having a JSONValue common subtype indeed would make generics with JSONArray and JSONObject ugly, but having those take java.lang.Objects with magic restrictions would eliminate annoying boxing code
# [10:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: as far as I can tell, JSONArray is conceptually a java.util.List
# [10:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: doesn't matter if it is backed by LinkedList or ArrayList
# [10:18] <othermaciej> well, performance-wise it does
# [10:18] <othermaciej> it's almost never good to use a linked list instead of an array
# [10:19] <hsivonen> of course, but in API terms both are better than this boxing/unboxing drudgery I have to deal with
# [10:19] * othermaciej wonders what the difference is between ArrayList and Vector
# [10:19] <Hixie> annevk: what did i change?
# [10:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ArrayList doesn't do synchronized on its own
# [10:20] <hsivonen> Vector is part of the overly thread-safe legacy
# [10:20] <othermaciej> I see
# [10:20] <hsivonen> would be cool to update onvdl to use non-synchronized collections some day
# [10:21] <annevk> Hixie, the formatting and moving down the two doctypes for which the systemid has to be missing
# [10:23] * Hixie looks up the Liskov substitution principle and wonders why it has such a fancy name instead of being called "common sense"
# [10:23] <Hixie> annevk: i did it purely for readability reasons, but i'm glad it made things better :-)
# [10:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: people shows more respect if you use a fancy term instead of saying "that violates common sense"
# [10:24] <Hixie> fair point
# [10:25] <Hixie> i had the same reaction when i learnt of De Morgan's laws at university
# [10:26] <hsivonen> If I some day write my own JSON mapper for Java, JSONString will be a straight java.lang.String, JSONArray will be java.util.List<Object> and JSONObject will be java.util.Map<String, Object>
# [10:26] <Hixie> i was like "wait, this has a name? i've been doing this since i was 10"
# [10:26] <annevk> whatwg.org down?
# [10:27] <Hixie> it's having issues
# [10:28] <annevk> oh well, there are two repositories now :)
# [10:29] <annevk> maybe someone should get ambitious and make the html5.org tracker handle timeouts by switching repository
# [10:29] <Hixie> http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/ usually has information about why whatwg.org or hixie.ch are down
# [10:29] <Hixie> though not this time
# [10:32] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yeah, too bad you can't make the generics quite exactly perfect without introducing a base class for simple values
# [10:32] <annevk> it's back up it seems
# [10:32] <othermaciej> I guess you have to either box primitive types and strings or make the interface a little looser than Java likes
# [10:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the latter is so much nicer to program with
# [10:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej: also, in this case, it would have made equal() sane by default
# [10:33] * hsivonen had to write an external JSON equality test
# [10:33] <othermaciej> :-(
# [10:33] <hsivonen> equals()
# [10:34] <hsivonen> anyway, all that code is now done
# [10:34] <hsivonen> and tests pass
# [10:42] <annevk> Hixie, several changes such as &&, </ in <script>, etc. have only been updated in the parsing section and not in the "writing" equivalent sections
# [10:43] <Hixie> oh, crap
# [10:43] <Hixie> any idea what the "etc" are?
# [10:44] <annevk> the other &... thingies
# [10:44] * annevk checks for more
# [10:44] <annevk> that's it
# [10:44] <annevk> although maybe <p>test</body> needs something... dunno
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# [11:03] <Hixie> good lord
# [11:03] <Hixie> i can't work out how to write the requirements on magic cdata comment stuff for authors
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# [11:07] <annevk> you already did that
# [11:17] <Hixie> turns out it's wrong
# [11:18] <Hixie> it disallows
# [11:19] <annevk> that makes me wonder what  --> does
# [11:19] <Hixie> it disallows that too
# [11:20] <Hixie> both should be allowed
# [11:20] <annevk> you can nest them?
# [11:23] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
# [11:23] <Hixie> no
# [11:23] <Hixie>  --> is equivalent to <!- xx--> xxx
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# [11:44] <Hixie> right, fixed
# [11:53] <Hixie> ugh http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12646
# [11:53] <Hixie> html5 breaking pages
# [11:53] <Hixie> bummer
# [11:57] <zcorpan_> is it <h3><h4> vs <h3><a><h4>?
# [11:57] <Hixie> yes
# [11:59] <Hixie> wait... IE lets you nest them anyway
# [11:59] <Hixie> wtf
# [12:00] <zcorpan_> indeed
# [12:00] <annevk> the rendering doesn't change though
# [12:00] <annevk> nested <h1> keep the same font size
# [12:01] <Hixie> sure, because they use absolute font sizes
# [12:01] <annevk> I suppose that might have been the reason for other browsers to not do the nesting
# [12:01] <zcorpan_> <h1><p>
# [12:01] <Hixie> we could do that too with the 'rem' units
# [12:01] <Hixie> hah
# [12:01] <Hixie> IE is weird
# [12:02] <Hixie> all browsers do <h1><p> as nesting
# [12:02] <Hixie> as does the spec
# [12:02] <zcorpan_> ah, ok
# [12:03] <Hixie> what should we do? allow header nesting and require the stylesheet to use 'rem' or 'px' units?
# [12:03] <Hixie> or special-case <a>?
# [12:03] <Hixie> hmm
# [12:03] <annevk> <h1><p>x</h1>x :(
# [12:04] <Hixie> ":-(" ?
# [12:04] <annevk> I get red text nodes in IE
# [12:04] <Hixie> interoperable for me
# [12:04] <Hixie> oh well yes
# [12:04] <Hixie> IE goes red at a moment's notice
# [12:04] <annevk> heh
# [12:04] <annevk> I'd go for nested headers with rem I think...
# [12:05] <annevk> (would be nice if rem took <body> into account...)
# [12:06] <Hixie> it's sad since every other browser does it the same way
# [12:06] <hsivonen> annevk: got tests for the crazy [R]CDATA escape flag?
# [12:07] <annevk> yeah
# [12:07] <annevk> tests5.dat
# [12:07] <annevk> html5lib doesn't pass them though
# [12:07] <hsivonen> annevk: ah. thanks. no tokenizer-level tests, though?
# [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk: is it ok to write and check in some even if html5lib itself doesn't pass them yet?
# [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk: shall I start a new file?
# [12:08] <annevk> hsivonen, please make it a separate file
# [12:08] <hsivonen> ok
# [12:08] <annevk> hsivonen, I suppose some people want to disable it like they did with html5
# [12:08] <annevk> euh, test5
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# [12:13] <Hixie> wouldn't tests that fail be the most useful kind of test?
# [12:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: in TDD you want to pass tests--not fail :-)
# [12:14] <Hixie> tdd?
# [12:15] <zcorpan_> is the .constructor attribute specced anywhere? (can i use it in test cases?)
# [12:15] <Hixie> zcorpan_: try ECMA262
# [12:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: Test-Driven Development
# [12:18] <hsivonen> argh. the % operator in Java is crazy
# [12:18] <hsivonen> sane in Python
# [12:18] <Hixie> ah
# [12:18] <Hixie> well, sure, you want the tests to pass
# [12:19] <Hixie> but when you write them they should fail
# [12:19] <Hixie> new tests that pass seem pointless :-) (except for regression testing, of course, but that's boring :-P)
# [12:19] * hsivonen failed due to -1 % 4 resulting in -1 instead of 3
# [12:20] <zcorpan_> Hixie: thanks
# [12:21] * Hixie comes across an e-mail showing yet another difference between IE and all other browsers
# [12:21] <Hixie> <ol> <li> xxx </li> yyy </ol>
# [12:21] <zcorpan_> yup
# [12:21] <Hixie> i guess i'll sleep on it
# [12:22] <Hixie> since we don't have a bug report for this one i'm tempted to leave it
# [12:22] <annevk> I think we're fine with aligning more with IE
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# [12:22] <zcorpan_> in wysiwyg editors that use contentEditable or designMode, a nested list takes the form <ul><li>foo</li><ul><li>bar</li></ul></ul>
# [12:22] <Hixie> if we don't, we'll end up putting comments and spaces in the wrong place
# [12:22] <Hixie> zcorpan_: good times
# [12:22] * hsivonen makes his first check-in to html5lib
# [12:22] <zcorpan_> if you write content with ie the end result is conforming because the </li> is ignored. if you write with other browsers the end result is non-conforming
# [12:23] <zcorpan_> people blame other browsers
# [12:23] <Hixie> yeah
# [12:23] <Hixie> oh?
# [12:23] <Hixie> uri to blame-giving?
# [12:23] <Hixie> i haven't seen people complain about that
# [12:23] <Hixie> that's interesting
# [12:23] <Hixie> i'd love to read more
# [12:23] <zcorpan_> s/people/wysiwyg tool authors/
# [12:24] <zcorpan_> only over IM
# [12:24] <zcorpan_> in swedish
# [12:24] <Hixie> heh ok
# [12:24] <Hixie> well changing these things is very risky and expensive
# [12:24] <Hixie> but we'll see
# [12:24] <Hixie> first though, i shall sleep
# [12:24] <Hixie> nn
# [12:24] <zcorpan_> nn
# [12:24] <hsivonen> nn
# [12:26] <annevk> hmm
# [12:26] <annevk> handling <!-- in CDATA requires either rearchitecture or hooking into the tree construction stage
# [12:27] <hsivonen> annevk: huh. WFM in the tokenizer
# [12:27] <annevk> and I don't have a clear plan for the rearchitecture either
# [12:27] <annevk> hsivonen, does your tokenizer have knowledge of tag names?
# [12:27] <hsivonen> annevk: it knows about void elements
# [12:27] <zcorpan_> "The location attribute of the HTMLDocument interface must return the Location object for that Document object." -- i don't know how to test this
# [12:30] <annevk> hsivonen, is your impl online somewhere?
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# [12:39] <hsivonen> annevk: not yet. I had emailed cvsdude support about it. they just emailed my that I have to ask fantasai, so I emailed her to flip the switch
# [12:40] <hsivonen> annevk: If you want it now, I can upload a .zip somewhere
# [12:40] <hsivonen> s/my/me/
# [12:41] <annevk> I can wait I suppose
# [12:41] <annevk> there are some other changes I want to make
# [12:41] <hsivonen> creating a dump now
# [12:42] <rubys> anybody have plans to fix the tests that hsivonen just checked in?
# [12:42] <hsivonen> rubys: fix the tests or fix the impl to pass the tests?
# [12:42] <annevk> yes, but I'm not sure how
# [12:42] <annevk> (talking about fixing the impl here)
# [12:43] <rubys> hsivonen: I'm just trying to figure out whether this will be fixed shortly, or if these tests should be added to the todo list.
# [12:44] <annevk> If someone can give me a plan for how to do it I'll fix the Python code
# [12:44] <annevk> until that happens it's prolly TODO work
# [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/htmlparser-dump.zip
# [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: look in nu.validator.*
# [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: fi.iki.* is legacy
# [12:45] <hsivonen> annevk: the impl should be in sync with June 17th spec for everything except entities which is in sync with June 12th
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# [12:49] <hsivonen> annevk: see the last lines of read() as well as dataState()
# [12:53] <annevk> HTML4 errors, nice
# [12:54] <hsivonen> annevk: as for the plan, I suggest you do what I'm doing, but you need to figure which one of Python's data structures is the most effient one for that kind of low level stuff
# [12:54] * hsivonen guesses either list or string
# [12:56] <annevk> the problem is getting the last set of characters
# [12:57] <annevk> getting this to work fast is another issue...
# [12:57] <annevk> for instance, since < triggers closetagopen state that will emit a character '<' on its own
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# [12:57] <annevk> which is only accessible from the tree construction stage
# [12:58] <hsivonen> annevk: can't whatever you use to read the next char put the char into a four-slot ring buffer?
# [12:59] <annevk> just for the data state?
# [12:59] <annevk> that makes some sense
# [12:59] <hsivonen> annevk: don't you have an equivalent for my read()?
# [12:59] <annevk> I do
# [12:59] <annevk> so that would actually make it fairly trivial :)
# [13:00] <annevk> I think...
# [13:02] <hsivonen> if (contentModelFlag != ContentModelFlag.PCDATA) {
# [13:02] <hsivonen> prevFourPtr++;
# [13:02] <hsivonen> prevFourPtr %= 4;
# [13:02] <hsivonen> prevFour[prevFourPtr] = c;
# [13:02] <hsivonen> }
# [13:02] <hsivonen> return c;
# [13:03] <hsivonen> where the if may be a premature optimization
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# [13:04] <rubys> in python/ruby you do just as well with push and pop(0)
# [13:05] <hsivonen> rubys: ok. I'm not familiar enough with the performance characteristics of python/ruby date structures for this kind of thing
# [13:23] <annevk> hsivonen, do you just do that in the dataState?
# [13:23] * annevk wonders if it covers <!</-- well enough
# [13:24] <hsivonen> annevk: didn't Hixie spec it for the data state only?
# [13:25] <hsivonen> annevk: read() updates the ring buffer from underneath the states
# [13:28] <annevk> ah ok, that clarifies it
# [13:29] <hsivonen> it's crazy how long the read() method needs to be in order to get all the right things done
# [13:35] <annevk> our read method is on the iput stream object
# [13:37] <hsivonen> for efficient SAX character data reporting, the tokenizer in Java needs to have access to its buffer
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# [14:18] <annevk> you actually only need to look at the last three characters, no?
# [14:29] <zcorpan_> "The href attribute returns the address of the page represented by the associated Document object, as an absolute IRI reference." -- this means that both percent-encoded and not percent-encoded are ok, right?
# [14:32] <annevk> prolly
# [14:50] <annevk> reserializing this document gets ugly: <script><!--
# [14:50] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, the current character has already been seen, so it is sufficient to examine the three previous ones
# [14:57] <annevk> hmm
# [14:57] <annevk> it's sort of working but I'm hitting weird bugs I can't figure out
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# [15:23] <annevk> hah, I think I nailed it
# [15:23] <annevk> running tests it doesn't seem slower so far
# [15:24] <annevk> time to update the tests
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# [15:39] <annevk> hsivonen, one of your tests has a bug
# [15:40] <annevk> hmm
# [15:41] <hsivonen> annevk: oh. which one?
# [15:41] <annevk> foobaz</bar>
# [15:41] <annevk> <!--> is either a single comment or the start of one
# [15:42] <annevk> it's certainly not character data
# [15:42] <hsivonen> annevk: why not?
# [15:42] <annevk> after the first </bar> is emitted you switch to PCDATA
# [15:43] <annevk> we do at least, I suppose that could differ per implementation
# [15:44] <hsivonen> oh, right. the latter one
# [15:44] <annevk> yeah, the second
# [15:44] <zcorpan_> annevk: <!--> can be the start of a comment?
# [15:44] <annevk> it also says "end tag surrounded"
# [15:44] <annevk> zcorpan_, that was previously the case
# [15:44] <zcorpan_> ah
# [15:45] <annevk> hsivonen, that should also be changed I suppose
# [15:45] <hsivonen> I start to suspect my test harness or impl is broken
# [15:46] <hsivonen> brokenness with harness
# [15:46] * hsivonen blushes
# [15:47] <hsivonen> my impl is totally b0rked, too
# [15:55] <hsivonen> my harness was so b0rked it isn't even funny
# [15:57] <annevk> another advantage of multiple implementations
# [16:05] <annevk> our test coverage is pretty good btw
# [16:05] <annevk> each change I make triggers at least one error in the testsuite
# [16:05] <annevk> I usually add some regression tests while I'm at it
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# [16:12] <hsivonen> annevk: has the handling of <!--> in PCDATA changed since June 17th?
# [16:12] <annevk> yes
# [16:12] <annevk> there are two new comment states to handle  as near-empty incorrect comments
# [16:12] <hsivonen> argh
# [16:13] <hsivonen> I guess I have to go diffing the spec again
# [16:13] <annevk> you misunderstand, this is a good thing :)
# [16:13] <hsivonen> sure
# [16:14] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
# [16:16] <annevk> I think I'll implement that now and see what breaks
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# [16:38] <annevk> hsivonen, I checked in basic  tokenizer tests
# [16:42] <rubys> annevk: I'm seeing two failures w/python, is that what you are seeing?
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# [16:43] <annevk> I have three
# [16:43] <annevk> I suspect one of them is just something on my side
# [16:43] <annevk> There's one failure in escapeFlag, but that's because the testcase has to be fixed
# [16:43] <rubys> do a svn up... you might not have t.broyer's fix
# [16:43] <annevk> and there's a failure with respect to newlines
# [16:43] <annevk> I've no idea how to fix that
# [16:44] <annevk> I got his fixes
# [16:44] <rubys> when the code stabilizes, I'll take a look at test_newlines
# [16:48] <rubys> ... which I guess is now (down to one failure)
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# [16:49] <annevk> yeah, for the moment
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# [16:55] <rubys> fixed
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# [17:00] <annevk> cool
# [17:02] <rubys> planning to break more stuff? :-) Or is it safe to try to port these changes to Ruby now?
# [17:04] <annevk> heh, I think I'll stop doing html5lib for the rest of the day
# [17:08] <annevk> things we need to do at some point:
# [17:08] <annevk> * fix the new innerHTML stuff (adding a newline for <pre> and <textarea>)
# [17:08] <annevk> * fix <isindex>
# [17:08] <annevk> * implement almost standards mode
# [17:08] <annevk> * <p></body>
# [17:09] <rubys> "almost standards mode" doesn't apply to fragments, does it?
# [17:10] <annevk> currently quirks mode and almost standards mode don't affect parsing at all
# [17:10] <annevk> they're just determined during tree construction
# [17:10] <rubys> ah, gotcha
# [17:12] <rubys> why did you comment out #import hotshot, hotshot.stats in mockParser?
# [17:13] <annevk> oh, that happened on accident I think
# [17:13] <annevk> I don't have hotshot here and wanted to play with the other parts
# [17:13] <rubys> ok, I'll include that in my next commit.
# [17:14] <rubys> I'll move the import down to where it is needed
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# [18:36] <mitsuhiko> is there lxml support for html5lib around somewhere?
# [18:36] <mitsuhiko> i want xpath ;)
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# [18:51] <rubys> libxml2 is supported in python html5lib
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# [19:05] <mitsuhiko> rubys: really?
# [19:05] <mitsuhiko> i can't find it somehow
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# [19:12] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: Are you looking in the 0.9 release rather than the SVN version?
# [19:13] <mitsuhiko> Philip`: no. svn version
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# [19:19] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/python/src/treebuilders/__init__.py - looks like it needs etree with implementation=lxml.etree
# [19:19] <mitsuhiko> ah
# [19:20] <Philip`> (I've not tried using it myself, though)
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# [20:11] <Jero> does the <dialog> element also apply to comments on a weblog?
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# [20:42] <jgraham> mitsuhiko: Did you get it working?
# [20:42] <mitsuhiko> jgraham: i haven't further tried because i found out that lxml is not exactly what i need
# [20:43] <mitsuhiko> basically what i want is a simple tree i push to plugins which then manipulate it, i pickle it afterwards and render on request
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# [20:44] <jgraham> Does lxml not fulfil that use case
# [20:44] * jgraham wonders if picking wouldn't work
# [20:44] <jgraham> pickling even
# [20:44] <mitsuhiko> jgraham: it's out of the scope because it's not a python library
# [20:44] <mitsuhiko> (unfortunately)
# [20:45] <jgraham> Oh, you need to work with the python stdlib?
# [20:45] <mitsuhiko> no, just not binary stuff
# [20:45] <jgraham> Does that not rule out XPath?
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# [20:45] <mitsuhiko> jgraham: indeed. that's why i found a different solution
# [20:46] <jgraham> What are you using?
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# [20:47] <mitsuhiko> i have a minimal Node class with a filter function that uses a very simple query "language" that is easily parsable
# [20:47] <mitsuhiko> (in theory performance doesn't matter because i put the pickled stuff into the database but i want to keep it simple)
# [20:48] <mitsuhiko> but the html5 library is really nice :D
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# [21:08] <annevk> Jero, I'd suggest e-mailing the list; that is either a good example for good usage or bad usage
# [21:09] <annevk> Jero, personally I think it would be incorrect, <article> is for marking up comments iirc
# [21:09] <annevk> Jero, personally I think it would be incorrect, <article> is for marking up comments iirc
# [21:09] <Jero> annevk: yeah, I saw that too, but <dialog> also seemed like a good candidate. I'll email the list, thanks
# [21:10] <annevk> krijnh, pointer?
# [21:10] <annevk> hmm
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# [21:29] <annevk> http://pkarl.com/notebook/if-you-dont-approve-of-html5-then-youre-a-communist/
# [21:30] <Lfe> got to love how blogs has improved page titles :)
# [21:30] <annevk> http://www.burningbird.net/technology/marathon-20/
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# [21:48] <Jero> does anyone know anything about the http://php-html5lib.dashslot.net/trac project?
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# [22:19] * Philip` wonders why he always ends up writing far more than he intends to
# [22:20] <Hixie> just go back and remove sentences afterwards :-)
# [22:20] <Hixie> i often write e-mails twice as long as the ones i eventually send out
# [22:20] <Hixie> just have to apply a razor
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# [22:31] <Hixie> annevk: maybe try "Conformance requirements phrased as algorithms or specific steps may be implemented in any manner, so long as the end result is equivalent."
# [22:33] <annevk> christ
# [22:33] <annevk> got to love comments like that
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# [22:34] <Hixie> yeah
# [22:34] <Hixie> the text above is what html5 says
# [22:34] <Hixie> fwiw
# [22:34] <annevk> k
# [22:34] <Dashiva> How about just combining them? "MUST follow either the algorithm below or an algorithm giving identical results"
# [22:35] <gsnedders> I prefer the current text over that
# [22:35] <othermaciej> I think instead of changing the conformance requirements for every algorithm, the text that says equivalent algorithms are ok could be made more explicit
# [22:36] <annevk> I think that's what Hixie suggested above
# [22:36] <Hixie> Dashiva: there's like a thousand occurences of the text "must follow these steps:" in html5, i'm not replacing every single one with weasle-wording
# [22:37] <othermaciej> I did not see his text above
# [22:37] <othermaciej> I guess I should check the logs
# [22:37] <Hixie> 22:31 < Hixie>|annevk: maybe try "Conformance requirements phrased as algorithms or specific steps may be implemented in any manner, so long as the end result is equivalent."
# [22:37] <Hixie> (it's what's in html5)
# [22:38] <othermaciej> that sounds pretty good
# [22:40] <Hixie> it wouldn't satisfy people who are looking for problems where there are none, sadly
# [22:45] <othermaciej> if you wanted to be even more explicit you could say "Wherever this user agent says that a user agent must follow a particular algorithm or sequence of stops, user agents may use any algorithm that has the same results."
# [22:45] <othermaciej> just so no one imagines a must / may conflict
# [22:46] <Dashiva> That's a good one
# [22:46] <othermaciej> s/this user agent/this specification/
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# [23:00] <annevk> bjoern disagrees...
# [23:00] <annevk> I think I'll call it a day
# [23:00] <annevk> to boring to worry about now
# [23:01] <Hixie> hear hear
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# [23:12] <Hixie> hey, anyone have a link to that summary of why versioning is bad? i think it was either henri or lachy that wrote it
# [23:12] <Hixie> can't find it anywhere
# [23:15] <gavin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0858.html , maybe?
# [23:15] <gavin> I recall one from hsivonen that I can't find, either
# [23:17] <Hixie> yeah that's all i could find too (arguments against IE's plan, rather than versioning in general)
# [23:17] <gavin> this is going to bother me now
# [23:18] <bewest> Hixie: some people interpret the versioning issue to imply that since html(5) will have no versioning in the doctype, that therefore every feature of html5 is perfect and won't need revising.
# [23:19] <Hixie> yeah
# [23:20] <bewest> at least, that is the complaint in #web
# [23:20] <bewest> among others.
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# [23:22] <hasather> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0433.html?
# [23:23] <Hixie> hm yes
# [23:23] <Hixie> i think that was it!
# [23:23] <Hixie> thanks!
# [23:24] <gavin> ah, good
# [23:25] <hasather> Hixie: there's also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0279
# [23:26] <Hixie> i think he sent one to www-tag at some point, too
# [23:27] <hasather> found those via zcorpan's del.icio.us :)
# [23:27] <Hixie> dbaron's is pretty good too, yeah
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# [23:30] * Hixie sends his mail to www-archive
# [23:33] <hendry> are there any specs for spreadsheet type support in html?
# [23:33] <hendry> there's mathml, in know, but is that it?
# [23:33] <Hixie> define "spreadsheet type support"?
# [23:34] <Hixie> http://spreadsheet.google.com/ is all HTML
# [23:34] <hendry> functions and stuff I guess
# [23:34] <hendry> :)
# [23:34] <bewest> and there's an API for the spreadsheets stuff
# [23:34] <hendry> though that's a representation?
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# [23:41] <othermaciej> annevk, Hixie: I think to be really and truly proper, it is a bit nicer to explicitly say "as if" at each site mentioning an algorithm, but a blanket clarification in the conformance section is also fine
# [23:41] <othermaciej> bjoern's suggested alternative is just crazy
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# [23:48] <Hixie> the html5 spec is hard enough to read already without having pointless "as if"s all over the place
# [23:48] <Hixie> everyone to whom it actually matters is completely aware that it's "as if" anyway
# [23:49] * gsnedders just wants to say "as if it's hard to read!"
# [23:55] <hsivonen> en-GB-x-hixie-x-valleygirl
# [23:56] <gsnedders> as if.
# Session Close: Wed Jun 20 00:00:00 2007

The end :)