/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [01:14] <Lachy> Philip`: just send any comments you have to public-webapi
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  27. # [02:29] <Hixie> Philip`: "CSS Selectors" are selectors used in a css style sheet; the terminology in the selectors spec should be consistent for that
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  30. # [03:46] <Lachy> Hixie, does XHTML Modularisation serve any purpose beyond splitting up the DTDs?
  31. # [03:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: in theory you could reuse XHTML Modules to make your own XHTML subset or to incorporate HTML elements and attributes into a different language
  32. # [03:47] <Lachy> othermaciej: I meant practical purposes
  33. # [03:47] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what relevance it really has given that DTDs are considered mostly obsolete
  34. # [03:47] <othermaciej> Lachy: well, do you consider XHTML Mobile Profile a practical purpose?
  35. # [03:47] <Lachy> not really
  36. # [03:48] <Lachy> I was just checking, cause that's effectively what I'm about to say in the email I'm about to send
  37. # [03:48] <othermaciej> it doesn't have a direct effect on implementations of XHTML per se
  38. # [03:48] <othermaciej> it's just a DTD factoring trick
  39. # [03:48] <othermaciej> I'm not sure how it even applies to XHTML2
  40. # [03:49] <Lachy> I think it applies because the XHTML2 spec refers to chapters as "modules"
  41. # [03:50] <Lachy> and because the DTD will be modularised
  42. # [03:57] <othermaciej> XHTML2 does not have a DTD
  43. # [03:57] <othermaciej> is that planned?
  44. # [03:57] <othermaciej> I thought it would be based on a schema language
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  46. # [04:04] * othermaciej is now known as om_out
  47. # [04:05] <Lachy> om_out: yes, they are planning a DTD http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/dtd_module_defs.html#a_dtd_module_defs
  48. # [04:08] <karlUshi> Lachy: the modularization means you can develop applications for different purposes not only XHTML 2.0
  49. # [04:09] <karlUshi> It means that for example someone who would like to create a specific application for data management in its own company, or a cms
  50. # [04:09] <Lachy> you can do that without modules
  51. # [04:09] <karlUshi> can use part of XHTML Modules plus other custom defined modules.
  52. # [04:09] <karlUshi> without having to reinvent everything
  53. # [04:09] <karlUshi> a kind of plug-in architecture.
  54. # [04:10] <karlUshi> btw it is not related to DTD per se
  55. # [04:10] <Lachy> people have been using HTML in CMSs for years without modules
  56. # [04:10] <karlUshi> but to modularization
  57. # [04:10] <karlUshi> Lachy: yes and ?
  58. # [04:10] <karlUshi> people have been using XML in CMS for years too
  59. # [04:10] <Lachy> and so modularisation isn't really necessary for that purpose.
  60. # [04:10] <karlUshi> creating their own languages
  61. # [04:11] <karlUshi> it is not because Lachy doesn't need it :) that some people don't need it.
  62. # [04:12] <karlUshi> which makes me think that I should find the time to update my old list of CMS http://www.la-grange.net/cms I have 10s of emails in the queue
  63. # [04:12] <Lachy> I maintain that modularisation is just a buzzword with little practical benefit. Hence, the XHTML2 WG's argument that HTML5 doesn't use modularisation is irrelevant
  64. # [04:12] <karlUshi> because you are not the main customer of modularization
  65. # [04:13] <karlUshi> it's a bit like saying "I'm using my skateboard every day to go to university. I'm a cool kid. I don't need a car. it doesn't have a practical purpose."
  66. # [04:14] <Lachy> it's also harmful for those who are. Just look at the XHTML Mobile Profile, for instance. It's a complete disaster that only serves to fragment the mobile web from the desktop web
  67. # [04:15] <karlUshi> hmmm another debate vi/emacs, pepsi/coke, boring… next.
  68. # [04:52] <yod> Hi, I'm a mac... and I'm a Peee ceee
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  78. # [08:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I was away for Midsummer.
  79. # [08:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: I no longer think that a single pass over the HTML document bytes is feasible when meta charset sniffing is needed
  80. # [08:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: as for the charset sniffing algorithm vs. using the tokenizer itself, I don't know if the sniffing algorithm is sufficient
  81. # [08:23] <hsivonen> let's hope it is
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  83. # [08:28] <hsivonen> karlUshi: I think XHTML-MP demonstrates that Modularization does not work. WAP Forum did not respect the prescribed module boundaries when they did their thing
  84. # [08:29] <hsivonen> karlUshi: making a copy of a monolithic DTD (or another schema) and editing it to taste would have worked
  85. # [08:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, see the recent changes, let me know if it's ok
  86. # [08:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  87. # [08:44] <hsivonen> annevk: the tracker is 500
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  90. # [09:20] <Hixie> christ, the html list sure is a lot of knee jerking
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  99. # [09:59] <annevk> hsivonen, I can't reach it at all
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  101. # [10:01] <annevk> hmm, get it now though
  102. # [10:02] <annevk> I wonder what the issue is
  103. # [10:03] * hsivonen tries hard going down the versioning rathole again
  104. # [10:04] <hsivonen> ..to avoid going...
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  110. # [11:09] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe the problem is that svn.whatwg.org is down
  111. # [11:09] <annevk> I'd suggest to use http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html for now
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  113. # [11:12] <annevk> yeah, the script works fine
  114. # [11:12] <zcorpan_> anyone know how to test walk through a range of characters with javascript? e.g. "\u0000" .. "\uFFFF"
  115. # [11:12] <zcorpan_> s/test//
  116. # [11:14] <annevk> eval("\u" + number) maybe...
  117. # [11:17] <zcorpan_> the number will be returned in base 10
  118. # [11:17] <annevk> zcorpan_, doesn't JavaScript have a simple way to make a char from an integer?
  119. # [11:18] <zcorpan_> i thought it did but i can't find anything
  120. # [11:18] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  121. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: you need a four-digit hex string
  122. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Number.toString([base])
  123. # [11:22] <zcorpan_> ah
  124. # [11:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Global_Objects:String:fromCharCode
  125. # [11:24] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: thanks
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  129. # [12:00] <zcorpan_> a "development mode" in browsers is not such a bad idea (where the browser complains about non-conforming stuff)
  130. # [12:00] <zcorpan_> that can be an extension obviously
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  132. # [12:20] <annevk> it's called "error console"
  133. # [12:26] <zcorpan_> yeah, but i think he had in mind something more agressive
  134. # [12:26] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/real/
  135. # [12:33] <annevk> I suppose
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  137. # [12:46] <the_mart> It takes a while to run!
  138. # [12:46] <zcorpan_> yes
  139. # [12:47] <zcorpan_> though it was surprisingly fast in kestrel
  140. # [12:47] <zcorpan_> :)
  141. # [12:47] <the_mart> I keep getting “unresponsive script” warnings. ;oþ
  142. # [12:48] <annevk> ah, the joys of Firefox
  143. # [12:48] <annevk> man, those people complainig about &iuml; should just use the Unicode character directly
  144. # [12:48] <annevk> or some character escape
  145. # [12:48] <annevk> or whatever we call them now
  146. # [12:49] <zcorpan_> 004 is fast in safari 3 too
  147. # [12:50] <the_mart> I was thinking the same.
  148. # [12:52] <annevk> I added "Open Issues": http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html
  149. # [12:54] <the_mart> What actually happened to the “summary” attribute on tables?
  150. # [12:54] * gsnedders didn't even remember |html|@version existed till I looked at that document
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  152. # [12:57] <annevk> the_mart, not researched yet
  153. # [12:57] <the_mart> Oh.
  154. # [12:58] <annevk> It's not really clear to me what it should contain btw. If it's important it should probably be mentioned before the actual table and not be hidden in some attribute...
  155. # [12:58] <annevk> And details about the table can be obtained with simple algorithms...
  156. # [12:59] <the_mart> Really? I always gave a brief description of the purpose of the table.
  157. # [12:59] <annevk> that's my personal pov though, not that of any WG :)
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  159. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> annevk: a glance of the table, so that you can skip the table altogether
  160. # [13:14] <mikeday> Bible5: "Thou SHOULD not kill" <-- what a classic :)
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  162. # [13:40] <hsivonen> annevk: I trust that Hixie will turn down the backwards-incompatible diaeresis suggestions in due course
  163. # [13:40] * hsivonen notes that ä and ö in Finnish don't have German umlaut semantics but people are quite OK with the entity names
  164. # [13:42] <annevk> are the actual unicode characters different?
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  166. # [13:46] <zcorpan_> no
  167. # [13:47] <annevk> in that case the argument is silly
  168. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> yes
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  170. # [13:55] <hsivonen> (it would be incredibly stupid to insist on making separate code points for Finnish semantics because the whole point of using the same characters is compatibility with German and Swedish printing hardware)
  171. # [13:55] <hsivonen> (same goes for pretty much all European languages whose orthography was influenced by German printing hardware)
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  174. # [14:20] <annevk> interesting, changed </form> handling in html5lib and again no tests broke
  175. # [14:20] <annevk> with over 3000 tests that ran...
  176. # [14:21] <annevk> though I suspect that number is not accurate (as some tests are run multiple times)
  177. # [14:23] <annevk> 8 times
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  179. # [15:20] <met_> annevk: looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20070618/ I cann't find there if onreadystatechange should be raised in sync request or not
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  183. # [15:31] <annevk> met_, why not?
  184. # [15:32] <met_> is it specified? cannot find it
  185. # [15:33] <annevk> it's just part of the send() algorithm
  186. # [15:35] <annevk> met_, only when sync behavior is different it is mentioned
  187. # [15:38] <met_> ok, I was confused
  188. # [15:40] <met_> but looks Firefox ignore onreadystatechange in sync
  189. # [15:40] <met_> safari is ok
  190. # [15:42] <annevk> that could be true
  191. # [15:42] <annevk> browsers are very weird :)
  192. # [15:43] <met_> 8-)
  193. # [15:44] <met_> ok, thanks
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  195. # [15:44] <annevk> feel free to file a bug on firefox
  196. # [15:47] <met_> there are so many reported XHR bugs in FF, this should be probably there alreay, im going to look
  197. # [15:48] * met_ wonders who is original author of Bible5 text
  198. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> <object> needs examples in the spec
  199. # [15:53] <annevk> someone needs to write a tutorial
  200. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> yeah
  201. # [15:54] * zcorpan_ writes a wish list to santa
  202. # [15:55] * met_ is now known as santa_
  203. # [15:56] <Lachy> can we write to him at santa@whatwg.org ?
  204. # [15:57] <annevk> there's devnull@whatwg.org
  205. # [15:57] <Lachy> has Hixie really set that up?
  206. # [15:58] <Philip`> Is that the address of the list moderator?
  207. # [15:59] <annevk> your message will get bounced I suppose
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  211. # [16:21] <Lachy> Philip`: in your email you wrote ""var <var>x</var>" - seems odd to do that for just a few of the variables..." Are you suggesting that I remove the <var> markup or add it to all of them?
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  214. # [16:39] <met_> annevk: already there https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=313646
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  220. # [17:40] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't think I have any particular preference either way - it'd just be nicer to be consistent (at least in my opinion), and maybe the easiest way to be consistent is to not use <var> inside the <pre> blocks at all
  221. # [17:40] <Lachy> yeah ok, but I'll use it in the prose when referring to the variables
  222. # [17:43] <Philip`> Okay, that seems reasonable - it should be clear that <var>x</var> in the prose is referring to the un-marked-up "var x = ..." in the code
  223. # [17:43] <Philip`> (Actually, all this stuff is clear anyway without making any changes, if one doesn't insist on being pedantic :-) )
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  225. # [17:50] <Lachy> Philip`: I insist on being pedantic
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  229. # [18:08] <Philip`> Lachy: About the 'var' scoping: JS is weird because it doesn't matter where you say "var x" in a function (or how many times you say it) - it always just declares that the current function has a variable 'x' (always initialised to 'undefined'), and it totally ignores any non-function scoping
  230. # [18:08] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  231. # [18:08] <Lachy> really? That's weird.
  232. # [18:09] <Philip`> so "function f() { x = 1; var x; }" will have a local variable 'x', and won't affect the global variable 'x'
  233. # [18:10] <Philip`> I agree it's weird :-)
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  236. # [18:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: should I expect tokenization changes this week?
  237. # [18:12] <Lachy> well, I first learned about variable scope in languages like Java where it works like I described in the email.
  238. # [18:12] <Philip`> It's why you get fun stuff like "for (var i = 0; i < 10; ++i) { var j = i*2; setTimeout(100, function () { alert(j) }) }" giving an unexpected value of j, since there's only one j shared by the whole function
  239. # [18:13] <Philip`> I believe JS 1.7 adds 'let' which acts like every normal programming language
  240. # [18:13] <Philip`> Uh, I think that setTimeout is a bit wrong
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  242. # [18:15] <Lachy> you got the function and delay reversed
  243. # [18:15] * Philip` can never remember which way they go
  244. # [18:16] <Lachy> neither can I. I looked it up.
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  269. # [21:03] <Dashiva> Is it just me, or do all the accessibility people have giant signatures?
  270. # [21:03] <gsnedders> some
  271. # [21:03] <gsnedders> of
  272. # [21:03] <gsnedders> them
  273. # [21:03] <gsnedders> cover
  274. # [21:03] <gsnedders> many
  275. # [21:03] <gsnedders> lines
  276. # [21:04] <gsnedders> (but yes, most seem to, though you can simply tell a screen-reader to stop, so it isn't an accessibility issue)
  277. # [21:09] <zcorpan_> Dashiva, quote Is it just me, or do all the accessibility people have giant signatures? unquote yeah.
  278. # [21:15] <Dashiva> Oh man, don't get me started on the quote/unquote stuff
  279. # [21:15] <Dashiva> I thought top-posting was as bad as it got
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  282. # [21:26] <Jero> in this piece of code "<nav id=1><nav id=2/></nav>", should #2 be treated as a subnav?
  283. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> Jero: the spec just says that <nav> represents a section with navigation links. thus it will be a section with navigation links in a section with navigation links...
  284. # [21:29] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-db5e0d8a2828a218) ("The computer fell asleep")
  285. # [21:34] <Jero> zcorpan_, yeah, but i think there are cases where it'd be convenient if it would
  286. # [21:34] <Jero> it would be, for instance, a lot easier to understand the structure of a website
  287. # [21:35] <zcorpan_> could you give an example?
  288. # [21:35] <Jero> http://tweakers.net/ for instance (sorry, hreflang=nl)
  289. # [21:36] <zcorpan_> (dat is ok, ik kan nederlands ;) )
  290. # [21:36] <Jero> flex
  291. # [21:36] <Jero> the red nav is their main menu and the black nav is the submenu that applies to the selected section
  292. # [21:37] <zcorpan_> why not nested <ul>s within the <nav>?
  293. # [21:39] <Jero> because i think having a predefined way to discover submenus is better
  294. # [21:39] <Jero> when a UA sees a <nav> inside a <nav>, it knows it is submenu
  295. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> when a UA sees an <ul> inside an <ul> inside a <nav>, it knows it is a submenu
  296. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> ?
  297. # [21:40] <zcorpan_> what is a UA to do with a submenu?
  298. # [21:40] <Jero> because there are a lot of different elements allowed inside the <nav> element, it'd be harder to discover submenus for there are multiple possibilities
  299. # [21:40] <Jero> Google for instance
  300. # [21:41] <zcorpan_> what is Google to do with a submenu?
  301. # [21:41] <Jero> if it wants to spider a website, I think Google (or any other search engine) would like to understand the structure of a website
  302. # [21:42] <zcorpan_> right. i don't see why <ul>s don't do the job
  303. # [21:43] <Philip`> Or if Google wants to display those useful "About | Download | Screenshots | etc" links on its results page, linking to different specific pages of the top result, where presumably it derives those from the site's structure somehow, perhaps
  304. # [21:46] * Joins: Ducki_ (n=Alex@dialin-212-144-083-187.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  305. # [21:48] <Jero> zcorpan_: it's hard to find a good argument about the <ul> case because i can't think of any other element that could be used inside a <nav> element to list the pages, but because the spec doesn't limit the content of the <nav> element to <ul> elements, I thought it'd be nice to have a predefined way to discover submenus that works with all possible elements that can be used in <nav> elements.
  306. # [21:48] <Jero> Philip`, interesting, but I can't find such links >_> Where can I find them?
  307. # [21:49] <Philip`> The multipage HTML5 spec does something roughly like <nav><a href=...>previous page</a> <a>contents</a> <a>next page</a></nav>, as a non-ul example of navs (though I don't know if it's a good example)
  308. # [21:50] <Philip`> Jero: Something like http://www.google.com/search?q=lame links to four sub-pages for the first result
  309. # [21:50] <Jero> oh interesting
  310. # [21:51] <Philip`> and it seems to get the page names via some non-trivial method
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  313. # [22:03] <Jero> Philip`, yeah, it seems to get the page names from the <title> and/or <h1> elements
  314. # [22:03] <Jero> or a combination of the two
  315. # [22:04] <Philip`> I'll just attribute it to magic Google dust
  316. # [22:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: i already turned down the umlaut thing
  317. # [22:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't expect to change the tokeniser this week, in fact i don't really expect to change the spec this week, i want to work on research
  318. # [22:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. thanks for the info. do you expect later changes to entity parsing?
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  320. # [22:17] <Hixie> not particularly, but who knows
  321. # [22:17] <Hixie> mostly i expect to change the encoding details
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  323. # [22:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
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  330. # [23:15] <zcorpan> "xforms has been designed -- one of the members of the wg was blind himself -- and so now we know it's accessible out of the box. you create your website using xforms and you don't have to do it following any guidelines or anything, it's automatically accessible." -- steven pemberton, http://blip.tv/file/241108
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  337. # [23:47] <Hixie> zcorpan: one of the members of the html5 wg is blind too
  338. # [23:47] <Hixie> same guy, in fact
  339. # [23:47] <zcorpan> i don't follow his reasoning though
  340. # [23:48] <Hixie> on an unrelated note, i wonder if anyone is going to use the recent thread where chaals explained that xhtml2's target audience was different than html's to argue that xhtml2 should be called something else
  341. # [23:48] <zcorpan> not me :)
  342. # [23:49] <zcorpan> it doesn't bother me what xhtml2 will be called. so long as the xml serialization of html5 is called xhtml5
  343. # [23:50] * hsivonen notes that Java 1.5 became Java5
  344. # [23:50] <webben> Hixie: Aren't there (at least) 2 blind members of the HTML5 WG?
  345. # [23:50] <webben> Gregory and TV Raman are both members aren't they?
  346. # [23:50] <Hixie> oh is Gregory blind too?
  347. # [23:51] <Hixie> well then XHTML5 must be TWICE as good as xforms
  348. # [23:51] <zcorpan> LOL
  349. # [23:51] <Hixie> i really pity anyone who has to use jaws, btw
  350. # [23:51] <webben> Hixie: don't forget that we don't really know how to use it
  351. # [23:52] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  352. # [23:52] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.99.23)
  353. # [23:52] <webben> Hixie: The way people who use AT all the time use it is different to the way casual web developers tend to use it.
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  355. # [23:52] <zcorpan> yeah
  356. # [23:52] <Hixie> my problems with jaws are far more fundamental
  357. # [23:53] <webben> While screen readers are pretty awful, I don't think they're dramatically worse than UAs to begin with.
  358. # [23:53] <Hixie> let's see if i can get it running again, hold on
  359. # [23:53] <webben> Hixie: Ah ... yeah for the performance problems like that you'd have to blame application authors
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  361. # [23:54] <webben> (for not using accessibility frameworks ... hence necessitating JAWS to fake being a video driver)
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  363. # [23:54] <zcorpan> i've heard that you have to use a screen reader with the monitor turned off for at least 3 weeks to have an idea of what it's like
  364. # [23:54] <webben> e.g. Safari for Windows doesn't use native controls and doesn't expose to MSAA (for the actual web content)
  365. # [23:54] <webben> it's that sort of thing which has made AT's life really difficult
  366. # [23:55] <Hixie> how the hell do i get jaws to talk again
  367. # [23:55] <webben> (also MSAA is old and sucky)
  368. # [23:55] <webben> Hixie: why did it stop?
  369. # [23:55] * webben didn't have big performance problems when experimenting with JAWs 7.1
  370. # [23:55] <Hixie> i closed it one time and it has never spoken since
  371. # [23:55] <Hixie> i've no idea why
  372. # [23:56] <webben> since, meaning at all ever, or in this windows session?
  373. # [23:56] <Hixie> at all ever since the last time i closed it
  374. # [23:56] <Hixie> running the jaws program brings up this window with their logo but does nothing else
  375. # [23:57] <webben> Hixie: do you have any other readers installed?
  376. # [23:57] <Hixie> nope
  377. # [23:57] <webben> Hixie: I'd post a quick message to one of the JAWS's mailing lists. A regular user would probably know what to do.
  378. # [23:58] <webben> Hixie: does JAWS respond to commands (e.g. does the link list open)
  379. # [23:58] <Hixie> how do i get that up again? my manual's in the other building
  380. # [23:58] <webben> Hixie: the JAWS manual is available for download
  381. # [23:58] <Hixie> let me try logging out and back in again
  382. # [23:58] <webben> (in an exe file, which unloads to chm, bleh)
  383. # Session Close: Tue Jun 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)