/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 26 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <othermaciej> zcorpan: we'll probably fix accessibility in time, it just didn't make the cut for the beta
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> ooo
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> that helped
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> wow, jaws doesn't handle putty well
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> it just says "exclaim" over and over
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> anyway
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie> let's see how it handles my blog
  10. # [00:01] <webben> Hixie: online docs: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_support/doc_screenreaders.asp
  11. # [00:01] <webben> (useful PDF of keyboard shortcuts at top)
  12. # [00:02] <webben> http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/Surfs_Up/_Surfs_Up_Start_Here.htm also useful if you haven't seen it
  13. # [00:03] <webben> Hixie: INS + F7 to list links (on a standard desktop PC keyboard with the standard JAWS layout)
  14. # [00:04] <Hixie> i love that when i hit a page with an http auth dialog, while the dialog is waiting for me to log in, IE keeps saying "25%. 26%. 27%."
  15. # [00:05] * hsivonen notes that JAWS documentation uses <b>
  16. # [00:05] <webben> hsivonen: Screen reader developers are not experts in the HTML domain.
  17. # [00:05] <webben> their websites are generally awful
  18. # [00:05] <webben> (NVDA and Raman's being honourable exceptions IIRC)
  19. # [00:06] <hsivonen> webben: does <b> make their site horrendously inaccessible compared to <strong>?
  20. # [00:06] <webben> hsivonen: No, no. I'm talking about their authoring practices generally.
  21. # [00:06] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.248) (Connection timed out)
  22. # [00:07] <webben> the common failure to provide docs in HTML format is kind of a giveaway
  23. # [00:07] <webben> window-eyes provides HTML docs ... in a frameset
  24. # [00:08] <Hixie> I love how it reads my blog. "The CSS working group is irrelevant back in March. Google host the CSS working group for a three day meeting."
  25. # [00:10] <webben> Hixie: if you want more differentiation between elements try the web-rent-a-crowd scheme
  26. # [00:10] <webben> (or turning on more announcements if you prefer that to voice changes)
  27. # [00:10] <Hixie> hm?
  28. # [00:11] <Hixie> "web-rent-a-crowd?
  29. # [00:11] <Hixie> "
  30. # [00:11] <webben> Hixie: Yeah ... this is why it grates that FS don't provide docs in HTML format
  31. # [00:11] <Hixie> what's "web-rent-a-crowd"?
  32. # [00:11] <webben> Hixie: JAWS has various schemes for how it reads things. Web RentACrowd is one of them.
  33. # [00:11] <Hixie> where do i find that?
  34. # [00:11] <webben> basically different elements are read in different voices
  35. # [00:11] <webben> hang on
  36. # [00:12] <webben> Hixie: I happen to have instructions here: http://www.benjaminhawkeslewis.com/www/accessibility/q-element/q-and-screen-readers#jaws
  37. # [00:12] <Hixie> cool
  38. # [00:14] <Hixie> holy jesus this is the least usable configuration system i've ever used
  39. # [00:14] <Hixie> maybe excluding .emacs
  40. # [00:14] <webben> Hixie: Well it is like emacs in that a lot of it will be accessed by keyboard shortcuts
  41. # [00:15] <webben> I think the shortcuts can be faster than navigating through one config window after another
  42. # [00:15] <Hixie> i meant ".emacs"
  43. # [00:15] <Hixie> as in the .emacs configuration file
  44. # [00:15] <webben> oh i see
  45. # [00:15] <Hixie> i have no idea what most of these settings mean
  46. # [00:15] <Hixie> Text Block Length: [ 25 ]
  47. # [00:15] <webben> Hixie: Ah I know that one.
  48. # [00:16] <webben> Hixie: Basically, JAWS offers a facility for skipping over grouped links.
  49. # [00:16] <webben> by looking for text that is not a link and is a certain length
  50. # [00:16] <webben> I think that's what it means
  51. # [00:16] <webben> 25 is (probably) characters
  52. # [00:16] <Hixie> yeah i worked it out from the help screen
  53. # [00:16] <Hixie> but that's still horrendous ui
  54. # [00:16] <Hixie> that option shouldn't exist
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  59. # [00:19] <webben> Hixie: Other than their failure to put it online in a form where you can refer people to it, FS's documentation is actually not too bad. I've just been trying to deal with Dolphin's documentation to see if it's at all possible to get HAL to do something with longdesc, but their manual is kinda hopeless.
  60. # [00:19] <Hixie> their documentation is ok, yeah
  61. # [00:19] <Hixie> their actual ui is horrid
  62. # [00:19] <webben> You'll get like a configuration dialog full of cryptic options, and the help will be a confusing summary of what the window is for, rather than a breakdown of the different options.
  63. # [00:20] <webben> Hixie: In all fairness, the UI is inevitably going to be fairly complex.
  64. # [00:20] * webben is trying to design part of the UI for Orca atm; it's non-simple.
  65. # [00:20] <Hixie> why?
  66. # [00:21] <webben> Hixie: Partly because people have very different software, very different needs, and very different preferences.
  67. # [00:21] <webben> (e.g. different synths/voices capable of different things, different combinations of braille/speech use, differing ideas about verbosity)
  68. # [00:21] <Hixie> that doesn't explain why the user can decide how many characters to look for when skipping to the next non-link
  69. # [00:21] <webben> and want different things at different times.
  70. # [00:22] <webben> Hixie: It's possible that can be set on a site-by-site basis.
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  72. # [00:22] <webben> where it might well be useful
  73. # [00:23] <Hixie> well rent-a-crowd worked, but it's buggy as hell
  74. # [00:23] <webben> buggy?
  75. # [00:24] <Hixie> e.g. (<a href="">Foo</a>) reads as (voices denoted by case): "left paren VISITED FOO RIGHT PAREN"
  76. # [00:24] <Hixie> wrong voice for the right paren
  77. # [00:24] <Hixie> also, it's still horrible to use
  78. # [00:24] <webben> hmm
  79. # [00:24] <webben> Hixie: If you have a licenced copy, you could submit them a test-case for that.
  80. # [00:25] <webben> (They'll prove ultimately unhelpful if you're just using an evaluation version.)
  81. # [00:25] <Hixie> when you're reading a book to someone (e.g. an audio book) you don't say "heading" before every heading
  82. # [00:25] <Hixie> i have a licensed copy
  83. # [00:25] <Hixie> thanks to google
  84. # [00:25] <webben> cool :)
  85. # [00:25] <Hixie> where's the bug database?
  86. # [00:25] <webben> Hixie: You have to email technical support. Like Opera.
  87. # [00:25] <Hixie> i have an opera bug system account
  88. # [00:25] <Hixie> and opera's bug system has a public facing bug entry page, too, for those who don't
  89. # [00:26] <webben> hmm IIRC FS just have email
  90. # [00:26] <Hixie> who the hell says "left paren" "right paren" all the time, christ
  91. # [00:26] <Hixie> i'm going to go batty using this
  92. # [00:27] <webben> http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_about/Contact_Us_Form.asp?Mail_Subject=Support
  93. # [00:27] <webben> Hixie: you need to reduce your verbosity settings for punctuation
  94. # [00:27] <webben> Hixie: most SR users do; then they increase it temporarily when they need it for something
  95. # [00:27] <webben> (e.g. coding)
  96. # [00:28] <Hixie> do i want SAPI5 or not?
  97. # [00:28] <webben> Hixie: I'm not an expert on voices; this is another thing where people have preferences; supposedly Eloquence is quite good.
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  99. # [00:28] <Hixie> that's what i'm using
  100. # [00:28] <Hixie> it's not SAPI5
  101. # [00:28] <webben> no SAPI5 is the Microsoft voices
  102. # [00:29] <webben> like Sam
  103. # [00:29] <webben> (or at least SAPI5 is the MS synth and comes with some MS voices)
  104. # [00:29] <webben> i think other companies also produce other SAPI5 voices
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  107. # [00:29] <Hixie> yeah i have a bunch apparently
  108. # [00:30] <webben> people tend to assume that SR users want naturalistic voices; but since many of them speed them up so that they are almost unrecognizable to the untrained ear that's not necessarily true
  109. # [00:30] <Hixie> oh thank god, i've found how to kill the punctuation
  110. # [00:31] <webben> Hixie: what version are you using btw?
  111. # [00:32] <Hixie> why does it keep saying "graphic" before <img> elements with alt="" text, grr
  112. # [00:32] <Hixie> 8.0
  113. # [00:32] <Hixie> just got it last week
  114. # [00:32] <webben> Hixie: are they inside links?
  115. # [00:32] <Hixie> yes
  116. # [00:32] <webben> Hixie: Yeah, there's been quite a lot of criticism of 8.0's stability on the lists.
  117. # [00:32] <Hixie> though it doesn't say _that_
  118. # [00:32] <webben> Hixie: are they the sole content of the links?
  119. # [00:33] <Hixie> e.g. the ? icon at the top of the html5 spec
  120. # [00:34] <webben> Hixie: that has alt="WHATWG"
  121. # [00:34] <webben> oh I see you mean alt text not alt=""
  122. # [00:35] <Hixie> right
  123. # [00:35] <webben> yeah that's normal
  124. # [00:35] <webben> you can probably turn it off
  125. # [00:35] <webben> but it can be useful to know things are an image
  126. # [00:35] <Hixie> wow, it screws up the rendering of the <dl> at the top of hte spec, too
  127. # [00:35] <webben> yeah dl dd dt supposedly don't work too well in JAWS ... I've never tested that though
  128. # [00:36] <webben> would be interesting to see what IE does with them in MSAA though
  129. # [00:36] <Hixie> brb going to my office
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  151. # [02:24] <Hixie> well i was going to do some research of year-based data based on Last-Modified headers, but most pages don't actually serve them
  152. # [02:24] <Hixie> so that's gone out of the window
  153. # [02:26] <kingryan> Hixie: have you thought of using the wayback machine?
  154. # [02:26] <kingryan> from archive.org?
  155. # [02:26] <Hixie> how?
  156. # [02:27] <kingryan> they make their data available to researchers
  157. # [02:27] <kingryan> they have indexes from crawls by alexa that are roughly every 6 months since about 1994
  158. # [02:27] <kingryan> if you want to do comparative study based on time, you could use those buckets
  159. # [02:29] <Hixie> it's not clear to me that their system could support parsing every single file in their index
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  161. # [02:29] <kingryan> I think it'd only be possible through the alexa web search apis
  162. # [02:30] <Hixie> yeah, that's not really enough for what i want to do
  163. # [02:30] <Hixie> (find how element usage varies over time)
  164. # [02:30] <Hixie> (and class, and id)
  165. # [02:30] <kingryan> yeah, you're probably right
  166. # [02:33] <Hixie> so i scanned about 100,000 documents (not really at random, so this may not be representative)
  167. # [02:33] <Hixie> about 100,000 of them had no last-modified headers
  168. # [02:33] <Hixie> about 20000 of them said 2007
  169. # [02:33] <Hixie> 1 of them said 200 AD
  170. # [02:34] <Hixie> oh i see, it actually said Tue, 14 Oct 02003 06:53:14 GMT
  171. # [02:34] <bewest> heh. wise guy, eh?
  172. # [02:34] <othermaciej> served from a stone tablet?
  173. # [02:34] <Hixie> 1 said 2044
  174. # [02:34] <Hixie> a number said 2099
  175. # [02:35] <Hixie> and a spanish one said Mon, 26 Jul 2250 05:00:00 GMT
  176. # [02:35] <kingryan> maybe we need to define Time5
  177. # [02:35] <kingryan> or Calendar5
  178. # [02:35] <Hixie> there's also a number of files from 1971 to 1994
  179. # [02:35] <Hixie> which is impressive since the web started in 1990
  180. # [02:36] <Hixie> but not impossible
  181. # [02:36] <Hixie> wow some of them aren't even joking
  182. # [02:36] <Hixie> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4803661&dopt=Abstract
  183. # [02:36] <Hixie> ^ 1973
  184. # [02:37] <kingryan> I suppose that be an accurate LM header then
  185. # [02:37] <Hixie> looks like all the 1971-1979 dates are from nih.gov
  186. # [02:38] <Hixie> and this one from 1985 actually redirects to nih.gov heh
  187. # [02:46] <Hixie> spec says you MUST use GMT
  188. # [02:46] <Hixie> apparently some people in europe didn't understand what MUST means
  189. # [02:46] <Hixie> also what kind of date is "Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:21:22 GMT,Tue, 07 Feb 2006 09:16:47 GMT" ??
  190. # [02:47] <Hixie> wow, all kinds of random formats are used
  191. # [02:47] <Hixie> sheesh
  192. # [02:47] <Hixie> how hard can this be
  193. # [02:47] <Hixie> "{ts '2007-04-29 03:40:38'},{ts '2007-04-29 03:40:38'}" is NOT a valid Last-Modified date!
  194. # [02:47] <Hixie> come on people!
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  196. # [02:58] <Hixie> in my sample of 100000 or so files, there were about 1000 unique _formats_
  197. # [02:58] <Hixie> for the date
  198. # [02:59] <kingryan> any valid ones?
  199. # [02:59] <Hixie> there are only three valid formats per the spec, which would come up as 10 or so the way i counted it
  200. # [02:59] <Hixie> so that's about 990 invalid ones
  201. # [03:00] <kingryan> and you said "so i scanned about 100,000 documents" and "about 100,000 of them had no last-modified headers"
  202. # [03:00] <kingryan> I'm guessing one of those is off by an order of magnitude
  203. # [03:00] <Hixie> actually no
  204. # [03:00] <Hixie> i was _about_ 100,000 files, and _about_ 100,000 of them had no date
  205. # [03:00] <Hixie> both numbers to 1sf
  206. # [03:00] <kingryan> gotcha
  207. # [03:01] <Hixie> actual numbers were closer to 140000 and 100000, i think
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  227. # [05:41] <Hixie> wtf is up with svn.whatwg.org
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  230. # [06:12] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/283
  231. # [06:12] <Hixie> not very scientific
  232. # [06:13] <Hixie> but that seems to be the distribution of years in the Last-Modified headers
  233. # [06:13] <Hixie> on the web
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  236. # [06:49] <Lachy> wow, I wasn't aware the google bot had access to all web pages in space and *time*! It'd be interesting to see what's in the pages that were last modified in 2250, just to get a glimpse of the future ;-)
  237. # [06:51] <Hixie> :-)
  238. # [06:51] <Hixie> see #whatwg for background on those numbers
  239. # [06:51] <Hixie> wait this is #whatwg
  240. # [06:51] <Hixie> aaah
  241. # [06:51] <Hixie> confusing
  242. # [06:51] <Lachy> lol
  243. # [06:52] <Lachy> should I check the logs from past or future discussion?
  244. # [06:52] <Hixie> hah
  245. # [06:52] <Hixie> last block of the logs (when i was talking to ryan)
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  261. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I wonder if 1969 is actually meant to be 1970-01-01 but time zones make it fall in 1969-12-31
  262. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I would have expected to see numbers since 1992 and a peak in 1970
  263. # [10:14] <hsivonen> the data points in between and before are surprising
  264. # [10:15] <othermaciej> I thihnk the default date on macintosh systems was 1969 at one point
  265. # [10:18] <Hixie> the numbers from 1971 to 1990 are intentional -- i spot checked some and they were of a site that made articles from those years available
  266. # [10:18] <annevk> Lachy, svg:svg is not a selector
  267. # [10:18] <annevk> Lachy, its svg|svg
  268. # [10:18] <Lachy> oops
  269. # [10:18] <annevk> Lachy, which would be a SYNTAX_ERR in IEs case
  270. # [10:19] <Hixie> i suppose i'd better actually implement all the spec changes i made recently
  271. # [10:19] <annevk> Lachy, because they don't support namespaces...
  272. # [10:20] <Lachy> they can add sufficient support for namespaces in selectors to at least understand the syntax, they just don't have a DOM with namespaces
  273. # [10:22] <annevk> they actually do... sort of
  274. # [10:23] <Lachy> yeah, they sort of do with xml data islands and stuff, but that's their mess to sort out
  275. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: their mess is generally ours to sort out
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  278. # [10:54] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/284
  279. # [10:55] <Hixie> i wonder what all the low numbers are
  280. # [10:55] <Hixie> other than the timezone ones
  281. # [10:55] <Hixie> and what's with the hundreds of pages in the early 1900s?
  282. # [10:56] <Hixie> i wonder if a few million pages per year is enough to get decent trends data on element class and ID usage
  283. # [10:57] <Hixie> there are more pages that claim to be from 2008 than from 1991
  284. # [10:57] <Hixie> given how unlikely it is for a page to be from 2008, i wonder what tells us about the pages that claim to be from 1991
  285. # [10:59] <Hixie> time to go home
  286. # [10:59] <Hixie> i love how there's a spike at 2038 (max 32bit time_t)
  287. # [11:02] <zcorpan> http://mrclay.org/index.php/2007/06/25/kill-these-dom0-shortcuts/
  288. # [11:03] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah, saw that. i wonder what we should do. we could deprecate those names, but it seems like a slippery slope.
  289. # [11:03] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.248)
  290. # [11:04] <othermaciej> you could make use of them nonconforming, but then suddenly you have conformance criteria on scripts
  291. # [11:04] <zcorpan> browsers can log overwrites in the error console
  292. # [11:04] <zcorpan> well, <form name> is already non-conforming
  293. # [11:04] <othermaciej> the special names don't always take precedence over built-in properties
  294. # [11:04] <Hixie> anyway
  295. # [11:04] <zcorpan> oh
  296. # [11:04] <Hixie> going home now
  297. # [11:04] <Hixie> later all
  298. # [11:05] * zcorpan waves
  299. # [11:05] <annevk> g'night
  300. # [11:05] <othermaciej> I mean depending on the object
  301. # [11:05] <othermaciej> for HTMLFormElement they do
  302. # [11:05] <othermaciej> which is sad
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  304. # [11:05] <zcorpan> <input name=submit>
  305. # [11:06] <othermaciej> for the remaining elements where name is allowed, you could make use of names that conflict with built-in DOM properties nonconforming
  306. # [11:06] <zcorpan> yeah
  307. # [11:06] <othermaciej> but then there are some things that do special lookup like this by id too
  308. # [11:09] <othermaciej> the things in WebKit that have overriding get-by-name in WebKit are HTMLFormElement, HTMLFrameSetElement, HTMLObjectElement, HTMLEmbedElement, HTMLAppletElement and HTMLDocument
  309. # [11:09] <othermaciej> not sure if this is a complete list
  310. # [11:09] <othermaciej> (Window lookup by name is non-overriding I think)
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  312. # [11:17] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  313. # [11:20] <Lachy> I don't get why Robert Burns thinks dropping <img> and <embed> in favour of a new element would work.
  314. # [11:20] <Lachy> he seems to be thinking entirely about accessibility and fallback, and ignoring every other issue like backwards compatibility
  315. # [11:21] <Lachy> and the fact that replacing <img> with <object> was already tried and mostly failed
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  317. # [11:23] <kfish> Lachy, some people just like abstractions for the sake of abstraction :-)
  318. # [11:23] <kfish> whereas others prefer clarity for the sake of clarity
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  325. # [12:11] <Hixie> i wonder if robin misunderstood lachy's e-mail
  326. # [12:12] <annevk> I believe he wants them to be case-sensitive
  327. # [12:13] <Hixie> in which case he misunderstood the e-mail
  328. # [12:13] <annevk> fair enough
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  335. # [12:30] * Lachy goes to respond to Robin to clarify it for him
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  341. # [12:41] <Jero> "...but no start tag token has ever been emitted by this instance of the tokeniser (fragment case)..." This simply means the stack is empty, right?
  342. # [12:42] <annevk> if that's what it means it would be better if the spec said that...
  343. # [12:43] <Jero> well I'm not sure if that's what it means, but it basically seems like it does
  344. # [12:44] <Jero> should I send Hixie an email?
  345. # [12:46] <annevk> why not
  346. # [12:46] <annevk> I suppose it might be a while to get an answer so I'd just go ahead with something and test it
  347. # [12:46] <annevk> maybe compare with html5lib
  348. # [12:48] <Jero> is it completely up to date?
  349. # [12:48] <annevk> was this a recent change?
  350. # [12:48] <annevk> I'm not sure if it's up to date with fragment parsing per se
  351. # [12:49] <Jero> I'm working on revisions 908 till 960
  352. # [12:49] <Jero> though I'm not sure in which revision this change was made
  353. # [12:50] <annevk> I made most of those, didn't see fragment cases though
  354. # [12:51] <Jero> hmm ok
  355. # [12:51] <Jero> I'll just send Hixie and interpret it as "...if the stack of open elements is empty..." for now
  356. # [12:52] <annevk> alternatively you could test browsers
  357. # [12:52] <Jero> hmm yeah
  358. # [12:52] <Jero> i'll do a couple of tests
  359. # [13:05] <Jero> actually it's quite logical, if no start tag has been omitted, then there's no reason to check if the closing tag is the closing tag for the element that triggered the (R)CDATA state
  360. # [13:05] <Jero> thus checking if no start tag has been omitted is practically the same to check if the stack is empty
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  363. # [13:45] <annevk> hsivonen++
  364. # [13:46] * Joins: Ducki__ (n=Alex@dialin-145-254-189-149.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  365. # [13:54] <zcorpan> would i send email to xml-names-issues@w3.org for bugs in the namespaces in xml 1.0 spec?
  366. # [14:05] <annevk> would or should?
  367. # [14:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what bug?
  368. # [14:07] <hsivonen> I think I've finally gotten the byte stream decoding right
  369. # [14:07] <hsivonen> whew. that was hard
  370. # [14:08] <hsivonen> and I only solved the cases that are needed for my tokenizer. a general-purpose InputStreamReader substitute would be even harder
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  376. # [14:13] * Lachy throws a tomato at hsivonen :-P
  377. # [14:14] <annevk> hsivonen, to properly handle unicode?
  378. # [14:18] <Jero> Why can the "DOCTYPE public/system identifier (single/double-quoted) state" not be combined with the "Before DOCTYPE public/system identifier state"?
  379. # [14:18] * Joins: polin8 (n=brian@host3.digitalpulp.com)
  380. # [14:18] <Jero> the QUOTATION MARK case could simple say "get all characters until the next QUOTATION MARK or EOF character"
  381. # [14:19] <Jero> same for the APOSTROPHE case
  382. # [14:19] <annevk> because that's not the way the rest of the states work (such as attribute values)
  383. # [14:20] <annevk> you could implement it that way though
  384. # [14:20] <Jero> right, but the same would also apply to the attribute values then, right?
  385. # [14:20] <annevk> well, attribute values special case & too for obvious reasons
  386. # [14:21] <Jero> oh yeah, that's right
  387. # [14:21] <hsivonen> annevk: to properly decode a byte stream into char[] while using a decoder API that I didn't design, recovering from error, reporting errors at the same time and keeping track of the 512 byte boundary
  388. # [14:22] <annevk> is char[] unicode aware in Java?
  389. # [14:22] <annevk> yeah, it is iirc...
  390. # [14:22] <hsivonen> annevk: char[] is an array of UTF-16 code units
  391. # [14:23] <Jero> annevk: but then again, why should the DOCTYPE states not be changed because the other states don't work that way? It's not like they conflict with eachother
  392. # [14:23] <annevk> so not necessarily 16 bits, right?
  393. # [14:23] <hsivonen> annevk: char[] is an array of unsigned 16-bit values
  394. # [14:23] <the_mart> It only supports the BMP though.
  395. # [14:23] <annevk> Jero, I like the current way better... It's just a way of writing things done. not worth debating too much about I think
  396. # [14:24] <Jero> true
  397. # [14:24] <hsivonen> the_mart: what supports only the BMP?
  398. # [14:24] <the_mart> char in Java.
  399. # [14:24] <annevk> hsivonen, so what about code units that require more than 16 bits? I believe they exist...
  400. # [14:24] <hsivonen> the_mart: char yes, but char[] supports astral planes if you use it right
  401. # [14:25] <annevk> BMP?
  402. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk: UTF-16 code units are always 16 bits. code points that don't fit in 16 bits are handles as two code units
  403. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk: Basic Multilingual Plane
  404. # [14:26] <annevk> ah, code points
  405. # [14:26] <annevk> that makes sense
  406. # [14:26] <the_mart> It uses surrogate pairs, but Java doesn’t have native support for them.
  407. # [14:27] <hsivonen> the_mart: java.nio.charset uses surrogate pairs natively
  408. # [14:27] <hsivonen> the_mart: my code is fully astral-aware
  409. # [14:27] <the_mart> Really?
  410. # [14:27] <hsivonen> the_mart: yes
  411. # [14:27] <the_mart> I’ll have to look at that.
  412. # [14:27] <hsivonen> the_mart: Sun even has done the right thing for java.io classes
  413. # [14:28] <hsivonen> the_mart: the implementation is hairy when you read one char at a time and the decoder needs to look ahead
  414. # [14:28] <hsivonen> the_mart: that's why I said I only covered the cases that my tokenizer needs
  415. # [14:28] <the_mart> Can it convert them to UTF-8 properly?
  416. # [14:28] <hsivonen> the_mart: yes. with error detection and everything
  417. # [14:28] <the_mart> Wow.
  418. # [14:29] <the_mart> I’m not really a Java person myself. :)
  419. # [14:29] <hsivonen> The JDK together with ICU4J is one of the best Unicode wrangling platforms around if you know what you are doing. (I do. :-)
  420. # [14:30] <hsivonen> far from perfect but other platforms suck more
  421. # [14:30] <the_mart> I prefer to program in C#.
  422. # [14:31] * hsivonen prefers Sun shackles over Microsoft shackles
  423. # [14:31] <the_mart> :)
  424. # [14:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's unclear whether two attributes with same local name and namespace is a fatal error or not
  425. # [14:31] <the_mart> Well it is standardised by ECMA.
  426. # [14:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: interesting. I've never considered that case
  427. # [14:32] <hsivonen> the_mart: I don't value standards org labels that much
  428. # [14:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: firefox/safari abort parsing. ie/opera don't. the spec says it's illegal but doesn't explicitly say that it's a namespace constraint
  429. # [14:34] <Lachy> has anyone made an issue page for longdesc on the wiki yet? I can't find one mentioned anywhere
  430. # [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: have you tested Xerces2-J?
  431. # [14:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no
  432. # [14:34] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/ns-malformed/001.xml
  433. # [14:35] <the_mart> Does IE actually support namespaces in XML though?
  434. # [14:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. Ælfred2 does not detect an error
  435. # [14:36] <zcorpan> the_mart: yes
  436. # [14:38] <hsivonen> I guess I'm on the hook for fixing that if the XML folks decide it is a reportable error
  437. # [14:39] <hsivonen> that being Ælfred2 behavior
  438. # [14:39] <annevk> hmm, Opera fails too
  439. # [14:40] <zcorpan> i just wonder where i should report it. xml-names-issues isn't open anymore
  440. # [14:41] <the_mart> Isn’t it covered in section 6.3 of Namespaces in XML?
  441. # [14:43] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("zzz")
  442. # [14:43] <zcorpan> "The confusion comes from document conformace section that says regrading namespace-well-formedness that 'element and attribute names MUST match the production for QName and MUST satisfy the "Namespace Constraints". All other tokens in the document which are REQUIRED, for XML 1.0 well-formedness, to match the XML production for Name MUST match this specification's production for NCName'. Duplicate attributes issue is not explicitly mark
  443. # [14:43] <zcorpan> "namespace constraint" however."
  444. # [14:44] <annevk> I'd e-mail xml-editor
  445. # [14:44] <zcorpan> ok
  446. # [15:04] <zcorpan> "deprecated" is such a misunderstood term
  447. # [15:05] <zcorpan> people say that target="" is deprecated in html4 strict. but it really is forbidden in html4 strict but deprecated in html4 transitional
  448. # [15:07] <annevk> removing <img> is so not going to fly
  449. # [15:26] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=69
  450. # [15:27] <the_mart> At least they don’t say that it’s “depreciated”. ;)
  451. # [15:33] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, I noticed that error too, haven't reported it yet though...
  452. # [15:33] <zcorpan> i can forward the forum post to the list
  453. # [15:38] <annevk> sure
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  458. # [16:14] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/012022.html er, i must have screwed something up there
  459. # [16:15] <zcorpan> i positively had blank lines around the inner quote when i wrote it
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  466. # [16:43] <met_> 'Much of XHTML 2 works already in existing browsers' ( http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/introduction.html#backCompat )
  467. # [16:44] <annevk> if you use client side XSLT... sure
  468. # [16:45] * SavageX is now known as maikmerten
  469. # [16:46] <zcorpan> much of FooML works already in existing browsers, too
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  473. # [17:10] <annevk> Lachy, he means exceptions inside NSResolver
  474. # [17:11] <annevk> Lachy, which are raised while the UA executes it (I think, anyway)
  475. # [17:12] <Lachy> oh, I didn't realise. I just assumed he meant the exceptions that are actually defined in the spec
  476. # [17:14] <Lachy> it should go to the caller anyway, at least in ecmascript, but it would really depend solely on how the programming language handles exceptions
  477. # [17:25] <Philip`> Could lookupNamespaceURI be called again after an exception has been thrown, before selectElement has returned? (Maybe some implementation with a non-interruptible selector system would just set an 'exception' flag when an exception is thrown, but then carry on as normal, before finishing and then rethrowing the exception out of selectElement, or something...)
  478. # [17:26] <annevk> yeah, it should probably say whether exceptions are ignored or re-raised
  479. # [17:27] * Philip` wonders what would happen if you made lookupNamespaceURI call selectElement recursively
  480. # [17:27] <Philip`> (I guess JS implementations have a recursion limit, but does that apply to JS calling native code calling JS calling native code ...?)
  481. # [17:29] <Philip`> (I can't actually think of any existing cases where JS callbacks are run synchronously, but probably just because I'm unfamiliar with the area)
  482. # [17:40] <Lachy> any suggestions for wording to put in the spec?
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  484. # [17:43] * Philip` doesn't really know anything about it :-)
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  487. # [17:50] <Lachy> I suppose it would work like a callback function, like in Array.forEach(callback)
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  489. # [18:00] <Lachy> Does this sound ok? "If an exception is raised by the NSResolver while resolving namespaces, processing must be aborted and the exception passed back to the caller."
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  491. # [18:09] <Philip`> That seems to make sense to me
  492. # [18:09] <Lachy> I haven't checked it in yet. I sent it to the list to see if someone has any better suggestions, since the issue is not entirely clear to me either
  493. # [18:10] <Philip`> though the word "passed" doesn't seem to fit perfectly for exceptions, since that makes them sound more like return values, but I can't think of anything better
  494. # [18:10] <Lachy> perhaps "propogated" instead
  495. # [18:10] <Philip`> (Also, I guess it should say "NSResolver (or ECMAScript Function)" like I vaguely remember it saying elsewhere)
  496. # [18:10] <Lachy> propagated, even
  497. # [18:11] <Philip`> That sounds reasonable
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  499. # [18:11] <Lachy> not necessary, since I've already defined that the ECMAScript Function is just a special language binding for the NSResolver
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  501. # [18:12] <Philip`> Ah, okay
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  520. # [19:46] * Lachy_ wonders why the video codec thread is continuing. I thought the solution was already explained.
  521. # [19:47] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  522. # [19:48] <Lachy> As long as third parties are able to provide browser plugins and codecs that work with <video>, UAs don't need native support for every format built in. Firefox, for example, shoud be able to invoke QuickTime for MP4 content, as long as QuickTime provides an appropriate API for FF to work with.
  523. # [19:49] * Quits: Ducki__ (i=Alex@dialin-145-254-188-191.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Connection reset by peer)
  524. # [19:49] <Lachy> or even VLC
  525. # [19:56] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-be148673454e8730) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  526. # [19:57] <the_mart> Yeah, and it’s a bit harsh how some people keep having a go at Apple over it.
  527. # [20:03] <tndH> I suspect some people will still be arguing after the patents have expired.
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  532. # [21:13] <maikmerten> Lachy, well, the problem is: VLC isn't really legal in many countries and QuickTime isn't installed on many system. I do think it may make sense if browsers try to invoke external media frameworks if they can't handle content themselves, though.
  533. # [21:13] <maikmerten> however, they still should ship with at least one set of codec content providers can rely on
  534. # [21:14] <maikmerten> in worst case that'd mean the market would be split between WMV, MP4 and Ogg.
  535. # [21:15] <maikmerten> but that means you "only" need to encode 3 versions to server like 99% of potential customers ;)
  536. # [21:15] <Lachy> They don't have to ship with VLC in the browser.
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  538. # [21:16] <maikmerten> right
  539. # [21:16] <maikmerten> well, anyway, at least on Windows the more generic choice would be DirectShow
  540. # [21:16] <maikmerten> on Mac it would be QuickTime
  541. # [21:16] <maikmerten> and on Linux perhaps GStreamer
  542. # [21:17] <Lachy> any third party should be able to write and distribute a plugin that will work with the browser, and if VLC does that from their site, no-one can stop any user from downloading it
  543. # [21:17] <maikmerten> that should suffice, combined with one natively supported codec
  544. # [21:18] <maikmerten> well, as a matter of fact VLC does have a browser plugin already
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  546. # [21:18] <Lachy> anyway, I should get some sleep. good night
  547. # [21:18] <maikmerten> night
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  564. # [22:30] <Hixie> Jero?
  565. # [22:30] <Jero> yes?
  566. # [22:30] <Hixie> so that thing you were asking about
  567. # [22:30] <Jero> the "...but no start tag token has ever been emitted by this instance of the tokeniser (fragment case)..." thing?
  568. # [22:31] <Hixie> yeah
  569. # [22:31] <Hixie> let me find it, hold on
  570. # [22:31] <Jero> sure
  571. # [22:31] <Hixie> ah, i see
  572. # [22:31] <Hixie> it doesn't mean "is the stack empty", because the stack is basically never empty (at least not in the fragment case)
  573. # [22:32] <Hixie> nor does it mean "is there only one thing in the stack"
  574. # [22:32] <Hixie> e.g. it wouldn't fire for the second "</" in <html><head></head></head></html>
  575. # [22:32] <Hixie> it literally means that no start tag token has ever been emitted
  576. # [22:33] <Hixie> e.g. because you're doing the innerHTML of a <style> element
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  578. # [22:33] <Jero> oh i see, so in the fragment case, you really need to keep track of the amount processed start tag?
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  584. # [22:42] <Hixie> Jero: somehow or other, yeah
  585. # [22:42] <Jero> ok, thanks for your response
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  600. # Session Close: Wed Jun 27 00:00:00 2007

The end :)