/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 27 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:35] * Hixie wonders if someone is going to point out to Sebastian
  9. # [00:35] <Hixie> that XHTML 1 and XHTML 2 have the same problem
  10. # [00:35] <Hixie> and that in fact XHTML2 and HTML have the same problem
  11. # [00:36] <Hixie> and that XHTML5 and HTML5 are good matches for precisely the reason he gave...
  12. # [00:38] * nickshanks winders what ian is going on about
  13. # [00:38] <nickshanks> *wonders even
  14. # [00:38] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0866.html
  15. # [00:39] <Hixie> yeah
  16. # [00:44] <nickshanks> yeah, he seems to have slipped up there
  17. # [00:44] <nickshanks> but his surname makes up for that
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  19. # [00:45] <zcorpan> i also don't see how he can know that using the name xhtml5 will result in more confusion than a different name (that he didn't propose)
  20. # [00:46] <zcorpan> e.g., if we call the xml serialization of html5 "bob", will there be less confusion than if we called it "xhtml5"?
  21. # [00:47] <nickshanks> Would IE 8's implementation be called Microsoft Bob the?
  22. # [00:47] <nickshanks> then
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  24. # [00:50] * zcorpan will create an xml serialization of html3.2. and name it xhtml3.2
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  30. # [00:55] <nickshanks> HTML 3.0 had some nice things in it
  31. # [00:55] <nickshanks> so don't neglact that one too :)
  32. # [00:55] <Hixie> any other than maths and <credit> that we haven't taken yet?
  33. # [00:55] <zcorpan> <note>
  34. # [00:55] <Hixie> <aside>
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  38. # [00:56] <nickshanks> i still want an <image> element that takes fallback content
  39. # [00:58] <nickshanks> Hixie: do you recall how many webpages used <image> as an empty element (i.e. they meant <img>)?
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  41. # [00:58] <zcorpan> nickshanks: how would you check that?
  42. # [00:59] <nickshanks> by looking for </image>
  43. # [00:59] <nickshanks> oh, never mind, the google web survey only counted opening tags
  44. # [01:01] <Hixie> use <object>
  45. # [01:01] <Hixie> we can't change <image> handling.
  46. # [01:03] <othermaciej> <image> is one of those things that makes you doubt reading people's reading comprehension
  47. # [01:05] <zcorpan> </p style=border:solid> -- opera and safari render a border, ie and firefox don't
  48. # [01:06] <nickshanks> hahaha
  49. # [01:08] <nickshanks> zcorpan: i logged that against safari as 14423
  50. # [01:08] <zcorpan> following ie/firefox would be to just say "act as if a p start tag with no attributes has been seen then reprocess the current token" or something
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  52. # [01:12] <zcorpan> nickshanks: not closing tags in general (it's just </p> and </br> that are magic... except in ie...) and not style attributes specifically
  53. # [01:13] <nickshanks> oh, i misunderstood you then
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  59. # [01:22] <Hixie> ok </p> and </br> magic is now in the spec
  60. # [01:22] <Hixie> annevk: would be cool if the web-apps-tracker had a way of showing the changelist going further back than the last N changes
  61. # [01:24] * Hixie starts the daunting task of backporting all the changes to the parser spec into his year-old parser
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  63. # [01:32] <Hixie> annevk: also cool would be a "next" link next to "I've read the changes!", so that you can go through the diffs one at a time
  64. # [01:33] <othermaciej> is annevk actually here?
  65. # [01:33] <Hixie> no idea but i'm sure he'll see the comments when he comes back online later if no
  66. # [01:33] <Hixie> t
  67. # [01:34] <othermaciej> I'd want to talk to him if he was, is all
  68. # [01:34] <Hixie> ah
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  70. # [01:35] <Hixie> wow, still nobody has pointed out sebastian's faux pas
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  72. # [01:36] <othermaciej> you mean that the more obvious solution would be to rename XHTML 2?
  73. # [01:37] <Hixie> yeah (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070627#l-8)
  74. # [01:38] <Hixie> i wish i understood what the www-tag were talking about
  75. # [01:38] <othermaciej> in general? or is there some specific issue at hand?
  76. # [01:39] <Hixie> most of the discussion in www-tag is way over my head
  77. # [01:39] <Hixie> they're arguing about the meaning of "resource" as far as i can tell
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  79. # [01:44] <Hixie> hahaha, his mail got +1ed!
  80. # [01:44] <Hixie> given my e-mail earlier today that's especially funny
  81. # [01:48] <nickshanks> i know what resource means
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  83. # [01:49] <nickshanks> it's a data block referenced by a ResourceHandle :)
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  85. # [02:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: please make stray </p> and </br> parse errors
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  87. # [02:30] <zcorpan> s/<\/p> and //
  88. # [02:31] <Hixie> valid request!
  89. # [02:32] <Hixie> done
  90. # [02:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: stray </p> were already parse errors, apparently: "If the current node is not a p element, then this is a parse error."
  91. # [02:38] <Hixie> d'oh
  92. # [02:39] <Hixie> fixed
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  94. # [02:42] <zcorpan> nn
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  97. # [02:49] <Philip`> Lachy: In Selectors: s/consise/concise/
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  99. # [02:57] <mpt> I don't care about the name of HTML 5's XML serialization, I want to know what HTML 5's codename is going to be
  100. # [02:57] <mpt> HTML 3.2 was Wilbur
  101. # [02:57] <mpt> HTML 4.0 was Cougar
  102. # [02:57] <mpt> HTML 5 is ...
  103. # [02:58] <Hixie> Web Apps 1.0 is HTML 5 :-)
  104. # [02:58] <Hixie> HTML5 _was_ the codename :-)
  105. # [02:58] <mpt> oh but that's so boring
  106. # [02:59] <Hixie> hey, i'm just telling it how it is
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  109. # [03:17] <Lachy> Philip`: fixed.
  110. # [03:19] * Hixie gets to r886
  111. # [03:19] <Hixie> well crap, now i have to do work
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  139. # [07:42] <Hixie> oh hey, people did eventually point out to sebastian that he was made a mistake
  140. # [07:42] * Hixie looks forward to the reply
  141. # [07:43] <Hixie> this whole naming this is such a joke
  142. # [07:43] <Hixie> i don't understand why we can't just share the name
  143. # [07:43] <Hixie> maybe we should call our XML serialisation "XHTML1 5"
  144. # [07:43] <Hixie> which would get shorted to XHTML 15
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  149. # [08:15] <Lachy> Sebastian responded to me off list and accused me of not addressing his argument. :-/
  150. # [08:33] <Hixie> what was his argument?
  151. # [08:33] <Hixie> You can make the exact same e-mail with s/2/5/ and vice versa
  152. # [08:33] <Hixie> or rather
  153. # [08:34] <Hixie> s/2/5/ and s/5/1/
  154. # [08:34] <othermaciej> I think he would claim that 2 is the valid authoritative continuation of xhtml 1, and 5 is a fork
  155. # [08:35] <Lachy> Hixie: this one http://www.w3.org/mid/4681C56C.8020501@lachy.id.au
  156. # [08:35] <othermaciej> i.e. that organizational continuity trumps language-level compatibility
  157. # [08:36] <othermaciej> I don't think sharing the name "XHTML" is a problem and the fact that it is even being debated is annoying
  158. # [08:36] <Hixie> me neither
  159. # [08:36] <Hixie> and i agree
  160. # [08:36] <Hixie> i really don't understand the problem
  161. # [08:36] <Lachy> there isn't a problem, which is why I said that the debate needs to stop
  162. # [08:37] <Hixie> the thing that nobody has brought up is that XHTML5 is one of _three_ new names in the spec
  163. # [08:37] <Hixie> HTML5, XHTML5, and DOM5 HTML
  164. # [08:37] <Hixie> and having one of those have a different number than the others would be aethestically very displeasing
  165. # [08:37] <Hixie> imho
  166. # [08:39] <Lachy> let's just drop the number, call it HTML, XHTML and DOM
  167. # [08:39] <Hixie> that'd go down well with the versionists
  168. # [08:40] <othermaciej> DOM5 HTML is kind of odd, since there is otherwise no such thing as DOM5
  169. # [08:41] <othermaciej> and with the HTML DOM in the spec, it's not really tied to a specific DOM Core level any more, in any case
  170. # [08:41] <othermaciej> but that's a whole other can of worms
  171. # [08:41] <Hixie> DOM HTML 5
  172. # [08:42] <Lachy> or DHTML5
  173. # [08:42] <Lachy> :-)
  174. # [08:42] <othermaciej> HTML5 DOM
  175. # [08:42] <othermaciej> (SVG spec refers to the "SVG DOM")
  176. # [08:43] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if any other w3c languages have a DOM
  177. # [08:46] <othermaciej> XForms appears to have a bunch of events, and only has a DOM interface for the <model> element (wow, it must be brutally painful to use with scripting)
  178. # [08:46] <othermaciej> MathML calls it the "MathML DOM"
  179. # [08:59] <annevk> someone should e-mail the Sebastian e-mail again and just change XHTML5 to XHTML 2.0 and XHTML 2.0 to XHTML5 :)
  180. # [09:00] <hsivonen> aargh. entity tokenization is subtle. I change something and a bunch of test cases fail :-(
  181. # [09:02] <annevk> at least the test harness is no longer broken :)
  182. # [09:03] <othermaciej> hey annevk
  183. # [09:03] <annevk> morning
  184. # [09:03] <annevk> I see you wanted to ask me something...
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  186. # [09:03] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah. there are some new tests that are wrong, too. fixing those now
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  188. # [09:15] <othermaciej> annevk: just wanted to talk about the design principles document, but I don't remember if I had anything specific - I'll try to do a proofreading pass on it to improve the wording
  189. # [09:15] <annevk> just edit and commit I'd say
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  194. # [09:54] <annevk> the </p> and </br> fix in HTML5 was no good btw
  195. # [09:55] <annevk> it's more complicated than that
  196. # [09:55] <annevk> Hixie, you need to let </br> and </p> pass to trough the <head> element phases and such as well
  197. # [09:56] <annevk> to make <!doctype html></br> work
  198. # [10:01] <Hixie> send mail?
  199. # [10:02] <Hixie> nn
  200. # [10:02] <annevk> done
  201. # [10:02] <annevk> g'night
  202. # [10:05] <zcorpan> "behave similar to the browsers we try to imitate in English." -- in English?
  203. # [10:07] <annevk> the parsing spec is in English, no?
  204. # [10:08] <zcorpan> oh. yes. it sounded like you tried to imitate in english
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  206. # [10:12] <annevk> landed support for my version of the spec in html5lib
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  216. # [11:21] <annevk> Hixie, we don't have <ruby>
  217. # [11:43] <zcorpan> hmm, wonder what i should write test cases for today. content-type sniffing perhaps?
  218. # [11:44] <annevk> <embed>, <object>, etc.?
  219. # [11:44] <zcorpan> sure
  220. # [11:44] <othermaciej> I'd really like to see someone start organizing test cases into a test suite
  221. # [11:45] <othermaciej> at least for more solid areas of the spec
  222. # [11:45] <zcorpan> i might do that later on
  223. # [11:45] <annevk> it would be nice if all <canvas> tests were somehow merged
  224. # [11:46] <annevk> and checked for conformance
  225. # [11:48] <othermaciej> yeah
  226. # [11:49] <othermaciej> that is one area that is ripe for being turned into a test suite
  227. # [11:49] <othermaciej> parser tests might be another
  228. # [11:49] <annevk> we have loads of parser tests
  229. # [11:49] <annevk> and I believe someone wrote a JS framework for them
  230. # [11:49] <othermaciej> so someone needs to review and slap them into dev.w3.org
  231. # [11:50] <zcorpan> how should we deal with automated testing in general?
  232. # [11:51] <othermaciej> there's kind of a tradeoff here
  233. # [11:51] <othermaciej> if you build a test automation framework, that might make the tests harder to integrate into existing test automation frameworks
  234. # [11:51] <annevk> we have this boilerplate for automated tests: "try{top.opener.rr(passed);}catch(e){}"
  235. # [11:51] <annevk> that should be quite trivial to integrate in any framework
  236. # [11:51] <othermaciej> for instance the WebKit regression test suite works best on just raw html files
  237. # [11:52] <annevk> that's for tests that have some JS in them
  238. # [11:52] <zcorpan> or where the result can be determinated with js
  239. # [11:52] <annevk> right
  240. # [11:53] <othermaciej> I guess top.opener would be nil in our regression test system and so harmless
  241. # [11:53] <annevk> it means you either run them in an iframe or some popup window
  242. # [11:53] <zcorpan> i could use both visual indicator and try{top.opener.rr(result);}catch(e){} where possible
  243. # [11:53] <annevk> yeah, most XMLHttpRequest tests on tc.labs.opera.com work that way
  244. # [11:54] <zcorpan> ok. good
  245. # [11:54] <othermaciej> we have a nice framework for test assertions that can be expressed in JS in WebKit
  246. # [11:54] <annevk> there's also a small thingie that lets you run the tests in serie
  247. # [11:54] <othermaciej> I made a sorta-clone of it for the Window spec
  248. # [11:54] <annevk> and report the results
  249. # [11:55] <othermaciej> see here for a live example: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/WindowTestSuite/publish/html/ecmascript/browsing-contexts/Window-document.html
  250. # [11:55] <othermaciej> probably only really good for API tests though
  251. # [11:59] <zcorpan> hmm... perhaps i should use the same technique as hsivonen proposed for document conformance indication -- a file that lists all tests are noninteractive
  252. # [12:00] <zcorpan> or use different folders
  253. # [12:01] <zcorpan> or in the file name -- 001-noninteractive.htm
  254. # [12:02] <annevk> js-framework.txt
  255. # [12:02] <annevk> although you don't really need that
  256. # [12:02] <annevk> if you simply stick with the boilerplate mentioned above a simple crawling script can take care of that
  257. # [12:03] <zcorpan> oh, right
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  261. # [13:09] <Philip`> My approach to the canvas tests is to write them all in YAML with some Python that writes HTML (and PNG), so I'd guess it should be straightforward for that to output different HTML for a different test framework
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  263. # [13:33] <zcorpan> made http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/stray-end-tags/with-attributes/ non-interactive
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  266. # [13:59] <annevk> we need a http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alists.whatwg.org+{s} bookmarklet :D
  267. # [14:10] <mw22> I think you more need to just answer the question
  268. # [14:11] <annevk> if you have time to do that, great
  269. # [14:12] <annevk> having people do some research into previous discussions isn't that bad I think
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  271. # [14:14] <mw22> well, if there is no time to anser question, just tell that then
  272. # [14:16] <annevk> this seems more helpful
  273. # [14:18] <mw22> no, it's not
  274. # [14:19] <annevk> that's just your opinion
  275. # [14:19] <mw22> no, it's not
  276. # [14:19] <annevk> ok
  277. # [14:20] <hsivonen> mw22: my reply may have been impolitely terse but at least it points to where you can find the answer
  278. # [14:22] <mw22> hsivonen, yeah, I also think it's impolite, it would be somewhat friendlier if you at least added one line ('maybe this is useful?') to it
  279. # [14:23] <hsivonen> will do next time
  280. # [14:24] <mw22> ok, thanks
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  282. # [14:24] <hsivonen> yay, Minefield now supports em-sized <svg> elements
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  285. # [14:48] <annevk> mw22, you see, the person found it helpful ;)
  286. # [14:48] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("kthxbai")
  287. # [14:48] <mw22> annevk, I don't have the reply yet, gmail sucks ;)
  288. # [14:49] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0900.html
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  290. # [14:55] <mw22> ah, ok, so now someone should probably reply to him that there is not time to answer his question, but it was already answered and he should look for it himself, or something along that line
  291. # [14:56] <mw22> I still don't have that mail in my mail box
  292. # [14:56] <mw22> gmail is really slow
  293. # [15:00] <mw22> oops, no, it's my fault
  294. # [15:06] <Lachy> someone reply and say that it is not the purpose of the differences document to provide justification for the changes, just to reflect the current state of the spec and describe what they are
  295. # [15:06] <annevk> the difference doc provides some rationale
  296. # [15:07] <Lachy> yeah, but not the detailed rationale some people are asking for, like the people wanting it to explain why accessibility features have been dropped
  297. # [15:07] <annevk> yeah whatever
  298. # [15:08] <annevk> I'll leave that up to Danc I think
  299. # [15:08] <mw22> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-run-netiquette-guide-00
  300. # [15:08] <mw22> "Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message, include enough original material to be understood."
  301. # [15:09] <annevk> see above
  302. # [15:10] <virtuelv> mw22: see http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 instead
  303. # [15:11] <mw22> virtuelv, thanks
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  315. # [16:36] <krijnh> Oi, anything interesting happened lately?
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  321. # [17:52] <gsnedders> hmmm… I've been asking around about people's thoughts on recommending a codec, and the consensus is there should be either none, or multiple recommendations, all of which should be openly documented
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  326. # [18:20] <zcorpan> a working draft is not a "spec"?
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  328. # [18:22] <annevk> I think it is
  329. # [18:22] <annevk> well, depends on the type of working draft... some are specs, others are not
  330. # [18:22] <zcorpan> e.g. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
  331. # [18:23] <zcorpan> i referred to that as "the spec", and got a reply that it wasn't a spec. it was a working draft
  332. # [18:24] <annevk> heh
  333. # [18:25] <annevk> at some point it might become a "W3C Recommendation"
  334. # [18:26] <hsivonen> annevk: do I understand correctly that html5lib unifies phases and insertion modes?
  335. # [18:29] <annevk> yes
  336. # [18:29] <annevk> we need that to correctly deal with EOF
  337. # [18:29] <hsivonen> annevk: is there a reason why the spec doesn't?
  338. # [18:30] <annevk> the spec doesn't deal correctly with EOF yet
  339. # [18:30] <annevk> I suppose Hixie will fold them in due course too
  340. # [18:30] <hsivonen> oh great
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  342. # [18:30] <hsivonen> tracking that spec refactoring will be a mess
  343. # [18:30] <annevk> this is about corner cases such as "<!doctype html>" not giving you "<!DOCTYPE html><html><head></head><body></body>"
  344. # [18:31] <hsivonen> annevk: is your deviation from the spec written down in English somewhere?
  345. # [18:31] <annevk> Hixie said it would be a fairly trivial change
  346. # [18:32] <annevk> hsivonen, it's quite simple, put the three tokens that are handled the same for each insertion mode in HTML 5 in each insertion mode and then drop the concept of insertion modes
  347. # [18:33] <annevk> hsivonen, then modifiy EOF in each phase appropriately
  348. # [18:33] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. thanks
  349. # [18:36] <annevk> I was just thinking that maybe your Java parser might be fast enough for surveys
  350. # [18:39] <hsivonen> annevk: I've been thinking about that, too.
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  360. # [20:19] <duryodhan> hey is there an upper limit to the height for <canvax> drawWindow method ?
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  374. # [21:26] <Jero> What was the last spec revision html5lib implemented?
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  378. # [21:28] <annevk> I implemented </br> and </p>
  379. # [21:29] <Jero> oh cool, that basically means html5lib is completely up to date, right?
  380. # [21:30] <annevk> I guess
  381. # [21:30] <annevk> if you find bugs, let me know
  382. # [21:32] <Jero> i will, but i just wanted to be sure i'm not testing the results of my parser against the results of html5lib if it were a couple of revisions behind
  383. # [21:33] <Jero> though i think i should reorganize my parser a bit
  384. # [21:33] <Jero> one big file of almost 5000 lines isn't exactly optimal
  385. # [21:33] <annevk> we're a little bit ahead of the spec fwiw
  386. # [21:33] <Jero> sweet
  387. # [21:33] <annevk> EOF handling and what I posted regarding </br> and </p> on the list
  388. # [21:34] <Jero> cool
  389. # [21:38] * hendry_ is now known as hendry
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  397. # [21:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: how does one determine if <datagrid> is being used as a tree widget or whether it is being used as a grid widget?
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  402. # [22:09] <Jero> annevk, <t?> makes the script throw an internal error
  403. # [22:09] <Jero> and by script i mean html5lib of course
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  405. # [22:10] <annevk> wfm
  406. # [22:10] <annevk> using the latest SVN version?
  407. # [22:11] <Jero> no, i'm using hasather.net atm
  408. # [22:11] <annevk> that might not be up to date
  409. # [22:12] <Jero> yeah, i guess that's the case then
  410. # [22:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't understand the question (datagrid)
  411. # [22:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: platform widget sets have tree widgets (disclosure triangles or equivalent on the left) and grid widgets (typically no disclosure triagles, column headings available)
  412. # [22:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: how should a UA decide which widget to use?
  413. # [22:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: should the UA report the datagrid to AT as a tree or as a grid?
  414. # [22:16] <hasather> Jero: I upgraded html5lib just minutes ago
  415. # [22:16] <annevk> Jero, if you checkout the CVS version you can cd into the python directorary and run something like 'python parse.py "<t?>"' and get something out of it
  416. # [22:16] * hsivonen is creating a table that shows mappings between WAI roles and HTML5 features
  417. # [22:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: the <datagrid> element is both, you can have it in a mode with headers amd discolsure triangles
  418. # [22:16] <annevk> hasather, why does http://hasather.net/html5/parsetree/parsetree?source=%3Ct%3E throw an error though?
  419. # [22:16] <Jero> annevk, that's good to know, not an expert at Python yet, thanks!
  420. # [22:16] <annevk> hasather, does it have strict handling?
  421. # [22:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: so do you report it to AT as a tree or as a grid?
  422. # [22:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a way to tell?
  423. # [22:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@u-211130159173.hotspot.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  424. # [22:17] <annevk> hasather, everything throws errors, it seems like something is no longer correct
  425. # [22:17] <hasather> annevk: yea, I look into it
  426. # [22:18] * annevk wonders if there were any architecture changes
  427. # [22:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: report it as a tree, i guess, though it might all be at the same level
  428. # [22:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: mmkay
  429. # [22:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: I expect this spec detail will get comments down the road
  430. # [22:19] <annevk> <datagrid> is quite hard to get through as currently specced :(
  431. # [22:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: as far as i can tell, the <datagrid> widget maps directly to the widget in iTunes and to similar widgets in pretty much every modern mail client
  432. # [22:21] <Hixie> hell even _pine_ uses this kind of widget
  433. # [22:23] <hsivonen> hmm. I see disclosure triangles in iTunes only in the Podcast view
  434. # [22:23] <hsivonen> and in that view they aren't the leftmost column...
  435. # [22:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: how does JAWS read that widget to you?
  436. # [22:24] * hsivonen turns on VoiceOver
  437. # [22:26] <hsivonen> when VoiceOver reads a cell that is on a row that has an open disclosure triagle, it says "expanded"
  438. # [22:27] <hsivonen> it seems that VoiceOver groks the concept of cell and the expanded status of rows at the same time
  439. # [22:27] <Hixie> dunno, haven't tried using JAWS there yet
  440. # [22:27] <annevk> Hixie, are you creating a new code.google.com/ page this week or doing different surveys?
  441. # [22:28] <hasather> annevk: Jero: I'm back to the old version for now. I don't really have time to look into it now, but I'll update it as quickly as possible
  442. # [22:29] <Jero> no problem, thanks!
  443. # [22:30] <Jero> ... @ PHP's built-in DOM implementation
  444. # [22:30] <Hixie> annevk: ?
  445. # [22:30] <Jero> $dom->createElement('p-') causes it to throw an error
  446. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie, specifically, publishing a new version of the 2005-12 stats
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  451. # [22:34] <Hixie> annevk: i might do, if i find something worth publishing. let me know if you have any ideas on what i should study.
  452. # [22:35] <Hixie> wow, my e-mail had absolutely no effect on public-html
  453. # [22:35] <Hixie> people are still just shouting at each other over style="", over role="", over <object>...
  454. # [22:35] <annevk> in addition you got a lengthy e-mail back :)
  455. # [22:36] <Hixie> oh good
  456. # [22:36] <annevk> Hixie, I'd be very interested how often the adoption agency algorithm is hit
  457. # [22:36] <Hixie> haven't got to that yet
  458. # [22:36] <Hixie> ^_^
  459. # [22:37] <Hixie> i could report frequency of certain errors i guess
  460. # [22:37] <annevk> As in, how many times is an element duplicated in the average case
  461. # [22:37] <Hixie> my parser skips straight past the entity parsing and the input stream tweaking (e.g. getting rid of U+0000)
  462. # [22:37] <Hixie> hm, might be able to do that
  463. # [22:38] <Hixie> mail the list?
  464. # [22:38] <Hixie> or me
  465. # [22:38] <Hixie> best jut e-mail me on that
  466. # [22:38] <annevk> And maybe investigate if we can adopt the Safari algorithm that produces significantly less elements
  467. # [22:38] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
  468. # [22:38] <Hixie> i thought that's what the spec was
  469. # [22:38] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  470. # [22:39] * Hixie wonders why sebastian doesn't mind XHTML 1.5 as much as XHTML5
  471. # [22:39] <othermaciej> I guess because it gives the impression that XHTML2 is the future
  472. # [22:39] <othermaciej> (and always will be)
  473. # [22:40] <zcorpan> 1.5 doesn't have the useful property of being able to say (x)html5
  474. # [22:41] <zcorpan> anyway
  475. # [22:41] * zcorpan will stay away from naming debates
  476. # [22:42] <annevk> for <p><b><p>...<p>...<p>... the spec does <p><b></b><p><b>....</b><p> and Safari does <p><b>..</b><p><b><p>...</p> ...</b> aiui
  477. # [22:43] <annevk> dhyatt said that it's less expensive than the current algorithm but they encountered one issue with it so far
  478. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: answer to http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/implementors-whatwg.org/2007-June/000108.html would be good to know if you happen to discover it as a side effect of your research
  479. # [22:44] <hsivonen> I'm similarly interested in attribute value and comments lengths
  480. # [22:46] <hsivonen> are XForms alerts modal?
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  482. # [22:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah that's on my list of things to look at
  483. # [22:50] <Hixie> annevk: oh you mean reopen the formatting elements for block elements as well as inline elements?
  484. # [22:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: great
  485. # [22:52] <annevk> Hixie, maybe, dunno
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  488. # [22:54] <annevk> they reopen the inline accross the next set of elements instead of reopening it in each one of them
  489. # [22:54] <annevk> according to dhyatt
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  495. # [23:07] <Hixie> annevk: right, so reopening it for blocks instead of inlines
  496. # [23:07] <Hixie> or as well as
  497. # [23:07] <Hixie> as i said in e-mail, not really sure how to quantify that
  498. # [23:09] <hsivonen> a WAI spinbutton offers "discreet" choices...
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  500. # [23:10] <hsivonen> is input type='number' with step, min and max supposed to be rendered as a "spinbutton"?
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  502. # [23:19] <Hixie> it could be, sure
  503. # [23:20] <Hixie> i'm amused that WAI is exposing platform-specific and presentation-derived widget concepts, instead of exposing underlying concepts and allowing ATs to optimise for their users
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The end :)