/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-07-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:02] <Philip`> Ooh, I never knew Safari did <input type=slider>
  5. # [00:02] <Philip`> Uh
  6. # [00:02] <Philip`> Ooh, I never knew Safari did <input type=range>
  7. # [00:03] <Philip`> but it appears to not handle non-integer steps, which is annoying
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  14. # [00:30] <Philip`> Why is &#13; a parse error? It sounds like a fairly legitimate thing to do
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  17. # [00:40] <zcorpan_> Philip`: good question
  18. # [00:41] <zcorpan_> wonder how &#10;&#13; is treated in browsers
  19. # [00:42] <zcorpan_> (or is it the other way around?)
  20. # [00:52] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cpre%3Ea%26%2313%3B%26%2310%3Bb
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  23. # [00:57] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cpre%3Ea%26%2313%3B%26%2310%3Bb%3Cscript%3E%0D%0A%20var%20node%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.firstChild%3B%0D%0A%20node.data%20%3D%20node.data.replace%28/%5Cr/g%2C%20%22%5C%5Cr%22%29.replace%28/%5Cn/g%2C%20%22%5C%5Cn%22%29%3B%0D%0A%3C/script%3E
  24. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> ie: &#13;&#10; becomes \r. opera: it becomes \r\n but only one linebreak is rendered. safari, firefox: it becomes \n\n (as per html5)
  25. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> (unless i'm misreading the spec)
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  27. # [01:02] <PlayPause> !seen nickshanks
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  32. # [01:40] <Philip`> Hmm, IE seems to support some named entities that Mozilla (and, I think, HTML5) don't
  33. # [01:40] <Philip`> in particular, 8203: zwsp; 8234: lre; 8235: rle; 8236: pdf; 8237: lro; 8238: rlo; 8298: iss; 8299: ass; 8300: iafs; 8301: aafs; 8302: nads; 8303: nods
  34. # [01:40] * Philip` wonders if anyone cares about those
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  36. # [01:47] <zcorpan_> Philip`: how did you find those?
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  38. # [01:48] <Philip`> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A264548 has a list that includes them
  39. # [01:49] <zcorpan_> ok
  40. # [01:50] <zcorpan_> ie seems to be alone in supporting those
  41. # [01:51] <zcorpan_> but i'm not against adding them to html5
  42. # [01:53] <Philip`> They don't appear to be the most highly documented entity names
  43. # [01:53] <Philip`> (like, that one list is the only place on the whole web)
  44. # [01:54] <zcorpan_> do they appear in your html research sample?
  45. # [01:54] <zcorpan_> (probably not)
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  47. # [02:00] <Philip`> I didn't collect any data about unrecognised entities when I was looking at the ~8K pages
  48. # [02:01] <Philip`> (The tokeniser did actually report unrecognised entities but I just discarded all that data instead of saving it anyhwere)
  49. # [02:01] <Philip`> s/hw/wh/
  50. # [02:01] <Philip`> In the other ~2.5K pages that I still have a copy of, none of those entities turn up at all
  51. # [02:04] <zcorpan_> yeah, we'd probably need a billion documents research to find the relevance of these entities
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  53. # [02:07] <Philip`> http://www.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duerst-iri-bidi-00 talks about lre, lro, rle, rlo, pdf
  54. # [02:09] <zcorpan_> Philip`: will you post this to the list?
  55. # [02:09] <Philip`> but that looks like it's just a coincidental use of the same names
  56. # [02:09] <Philip`> I will do
  57. # [02:09] <Philip`> (But which list? :-) )
  58. # [02:10] <zcorpan_> (doesn't matter)
  59. # [02:10] <zcorpan_> i'll cover &#13; btw
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  61. # [02:19] <Philip`> Opera 9.2 is missing &REG;
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  66. # [02:56] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cp%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3E%26ampxyz123%3C/p%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.getElementsByTagName%28%27p%27%29%5B0%5D.innerHTML%3D%27%26ampxyz123%27%3C/script%3E%0D%0A
  67. # [02:56] <Philip`> in IE
  68. # [02:58] <Philip`> When you set innerHTML, it appears to discard all alphanumeric characters after a "&amp" (or whatever) if there are no non-alphanumeric characters before the end of the string
  69. # [03:06] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/entities.html
  70. # [03:06] <Philip`> That appears to reliably crash Firefox trunk
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  72. # [03:11] * zcorpan_ points at http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/real/
  73. # [03:13] <Philip`> Aha
  74. # [03:13] <Philip`> But mine makes IE fail more ;-)
  75. # [03:14] <Philip`> (and works in html5lib/etc, though unfortunately all the implementations get everything right which is no fun)
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  77. # [03:16] <zcorpan_> :)
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  79. # [03:26] <Philip`> http://yy28.60.kg/test/read.cgi/maido3/1096370177/l50 - there's someone using &zwsp;
  80. # [03:26] <Philip`> http://www.tasb.com/services/field/staff/index.aspx?print=true - there too
  81. # [03:26] <Philip`> It's lucky that Google doesn't understand these entities, so it lets you search for them by name
  82. # [03:27] <zcorpan_> there you go
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  84. # [03:29] <Philip`> Most of the references seem to be in Chinese ASCII-art comment spam (or is that not spam?), largely on 2ch.net
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  86. # [03:33] <zcorpan_> it's Shift_JIS-art (*ﾟーﾟ)
  87. # [03:49] <deltab> no zwsp in http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/entities.html
  88. # [03:49] <deltab> ... but you probably already knew that
  89. # [03:50] <zcorpan_> yeah... all entities in html4 are already in html5
  90. # [03:50] <zcorpan_> (i hope!)
  91. # [03:51] <Philip`> At least all the ones in Mozilla and Opera are
  92. # [03:51] <Philip`> Only IE is 'special' :-)
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  141. # [11:32] <annevk> CRLF was already raised once on whatwg@whatwg.or
  142. # [11:32] <annevk> g
  143. # [11:36] <hsivonen> implementing a check for NCName makes me wonder if the original XML WG stopped to write down the code for checking it before making it part of the spec...
  144. # [11:37] <annevk> In XML5 it's easy :)
  145. # [11:52] <hsivonen> speaking of NCNames and stuff: are there known test cases that test the detection of various XML spec lawyering NCName subtleties?
  146. # [11:55] <hsivonen> I wonder what back end software http://www.weblogs.com/feedvalidator.html runs
  147. # [11:56] * annevk hopes his comparison between Harry Potter and specs won't be seen as offensive
  148. # [11:56] <hsivonen> annevk: on list or on blog?
  149. # [11:56] <annevk> list
  150. # [11:57] <hsivonen> annevk: my guess is it will be seen as offensive
  151. # [11:58] <annevk> bah
  152. # [12:01] <hendry> damn, i had the badware pcpro popup whilst using my bank's website...
  153. # [12:01] <hsivonen> I wrote a regexp for NCName suitable for sticking into a Java String literal and it is 7875 characters long!
  154. # [12:03] <annevk> ouch
  155. # [12:04] <annevk> write your own tokenizer? :)
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  157. # [12:05] <hsivonen> annevk: this is part of the feature set for parsing HTML into XML 1.0 infosets
  158. # [12:06] <hsivonen> annevk: no I need to be able to detect non-NCNames either to treat them as fatal or to drop them
  159. # [12:06] <hsivonen> anyway, the regexp is so long that Eclipse refuses to scroll enough to the right to show it all
  160. # [12:08] <hsivonen> using ICU4J for this would be cleaner and might even perform better, but I want to avoid the dependency
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  162. # [12:11] <annevk> omg, this quote/unquot has to stop
  163. # [12:20] <hsivonen> at least HTML 5 is much more author-friendly reading than any ISO spec
  164. # [12:21] <hsivonen> (I wonder how much work it takes to obfuscate something like ODF or OOXML to comply with ISO drafting rules.)
  165. # [12:21] <hsivonen> (or might ISO make an exception on those?)
  166. # [12:21] <hsivonen> (not to say that being more author-friendly than an ISO spec is enough)
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  169. # [12:34] <annevk> he took it as insult
  170. # [12:36] <hsivonen> annevk: not surprising. if it wasn't meant as one, it was a badly formulated non-insult
  171. # [12:38] <annevk> I guess
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  181. # [14:32] <hsivonen> canvas at work: http://westciv.com/xray/
  182. # [14:34] <annevk> in Opera I always get back <canvas>
  183. # [14:34] <annevk> I wonder if that's a bug
  184. # [14:34] <hsivonen> annevk: documentation says it only works in Gecko and WebKit. not working in Presto and Trident is known
  185. # [14:35] <annevk> of course, but what's the issue?
  186. # [14:35] <annevk> and is that an issue in Opera or Firefox?
  187. # [14:36] <hsivonen> I don't know. Based on what you said, I guess the issue is making the canvas event-neutral so that clicks go through it
  188. # [14:39] <annevk> jgraham, simpleson has no attribute "loads" causes tons of errors
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  190. # [14:40] <annevk> the rests of the tests are about some silly space after <!DOCTYPE ...
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  195. # [15:08] <G0k> hey all
  196. # [15:12] <annevk> hi
  197. # [15:13] <hsivonen> hi
  198. # [15:22] <G0k> so this TCP/UDP connection stuff in HTML5
  199. # [15:22] <G0k> has anyone actually tried implementing that?
  200. # [15:22] <annevk> I don't think so
  201. # [15:22] <annevk> That section is very much unstable, afaict
  202. # [15:23] <G0k> yeah i mean
  203. # [15:23] <G0k> i guess i'm not really even clear on its...purpose
  204. # [15:23] <G0k> i mean it seems kinda misnamed
  205. # [15:23] <annevk> communicating without the overhead of HTTP
  206. # [15:24] <annevk> and I believe it was also intended to address P2P at some point
  207. # [15:24] <G0k> it's not really a TCPConnection so much as a NewProtocolWeJustInventedThatHappensToUseTCPConnection
  208. # [15:24] <hsivonen> e.g. for games, IM clients, continuous visualizations of data, etc.
  209. # [15:24] <hsivonen> G0k: it isn't a pure TCP connection for security reasons
  210. # [15:25] <G0k> yeah that's surely legitimate, but calling it a TCP connection isn't really accurate
  211. # [15:25] <G0k> i mean there's also no reason that protocol couldn't be made to run over SCTP, for instance
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  213. # [15:26] <annevk> you could point it out on the list
  214. # [15:27] <G0k> yeah that would require typing in complete sentences and stuff, it's much easier to complain to you people
  215. # [15:28] <hsivonen> G0k: the connection initialization if coupled with TCP ports isn't it?
  216. # [15:29] <annevk> there's also http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/network-api/network-api.html?rev=1.3
  217. # [15:29] <annevk> G0k, hah
  218. # [15:29] <G0k> well yeah i mean the DOM interface is TCP-specific but the protocol itself needn't be
  219. # [15:31] <met_> annevk, you remind me Don LaFontaine in your spot http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/07/web it's like I hear his common sentence "I a strict world where..." (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJMGS7l0wT8 )
  220. # [15:33] * annevk doesn't have flash atm
  221. # [15:35] * hsivonen didn't know that "Don" is a real one guy
  222. # [15:36] <met_> hsivonen see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkhdy6bavuk
  223. # [15:38] <hsivonen> met_: just watched it
  224. # [15:41] <met_> Don's rewriting of annevk's spot: In a strict world, where pages using those new features completely break, new hero will rise. HTML5 from producers of Safari, Opera and Firefox. In December 2010 !
  225. # [15:44] <annevk> with 10% discount if you order now
  226. # [15:48] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@203-214-140-60.perm.iinet.net.au)
  227. # [15:52] <Lachy> hey, I'm looking for some example flash sites that provide alternative HTML versions of the site. In particular, ones that link to the HTML-only versions of the site below the flash. Anyone know of any?
  228. # [15:53] <Lachy> or even sites that use video and provide alternative content
  229. # [15:53] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22skip+intro%22 ?
  230. # [15:53] <Philip`> http://www.jkrowling.com/ has a text-only version
  231. # [15:54] * Joins: polin8 (n=brian@dsl081-134-176.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  232. # [15:54] <Lachy> yeah, I already got jkrowling
  233. # [15:54] * Quits: polin8 (n=brian@dsl081-134-176.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  234. # [15:54] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22text+only+version%22
  235. # [15:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'd start by looking at recent movie promo sites
  236. # [15:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: with this method, starting from the Apple Trailer page, I found http://www.rushhourmovie.com/
  237. # [15:55] <Lachy> oh, good idea
  238. # [15:55] <hsivonen> it puts the textual alternative in noscript!
  239. # [15:56] <Lachy> oh, and it uses black text on black background when you disable JS
  240. # [15:57] <zcorpan_> all i get is "A flash player upgrade is required to view this website, click here to continue."
  241. # [15:57] <hsivonen> http://www.noendinsightmovie.com/ also has a short writeup in the source
  242. # [15:57] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps the alternative content is for google--not browser users
  243. # [16:01] <hsivonen> the interesting thing is that even though movie promos most likely aren't trying to take blind users into account, they still bother putting text in there. this suggests that pitching textual alternatives as a SEO method might be attractive to site makers
  244. # [16:03] <hsivonen> hmm. http://cleanishappy.com/ contains a really long text writeup aimed at seach engines
  245. # [16:03] <hsivonen> but useless for users who can't browse Flash
  246. # [16:06] <Lachy> wow, that's got to be the longest meta description I've ever seen!
  247. # [16:08] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  248. # [16:08] * Parts: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com)
  249. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://del.icio.us/tag/flash%2Bmarketing
  250. # [16:15] <Lachy> thanks
  251. # [16:43] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  252. # [16:45] * annevk wonders why SVGSVGElement is not named SVGSvgElement
  253. # [16:56] <annevk> <dfn title="GDO">Garage Door Opener (<abbr>GDO</abbr>)</dfn> ...
  254. # [17:02] <zcorpan_> in typography, is it common to have the whole thing in italics, or just the "Garage Door Opener" part, or perhaps just the "GDO" part?
  255. # [17:02] <annevk> dunno
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  269. # [18:08] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
  270. # [18:09] <gsnedders> only 373 unread emails on public-html having been away
  271. # [18:24] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-9559e1e7449edd74)
  272. # [18:27] <Philip`> Is this month going to beat May?
  273. # [18:27] <Philip`> It's only 15 behind at the moment
  274. # [18:31] <zcorpan_> we need something controversial
  275. # [18:32] <annevk> that should be trivial
  276. # [18:34] * maik|eat is now known as maikmerten
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  285. # [19:19] <Lachy> why on earth does Firefox return true for if(document.createNodeIterator); but it returns an NS_ERROR_NOT_IMPLEMENTED whenever I try to invoke it!?
  286. # [19:20] <hasather> Lachy: when are you coming to Norway?
  287. # [19:21] <Lachy> don't know yet.
  288. # [19:21] * zcorpan_ might come to norway sometime soon also
  289. # [19:21] <hasather> zcorpan_: ahh, cool
  290. # [19:21] <zcorpan_> perhaps next week
  291. # [19:22] <Lachy> cause I want to go to Web Directions at the end of September, and if I go over in August, then I'd be coming back a few weeks later, so it was suggested that I go over in October
  292. # [19:22] <hasather> Lachy: so you're not coming in August?
  293. # [19:23] <Lachy> probably not, but I haven't heard back since I last emailed Annchen
  294. # [19:23] <hasather> ok
  295. # [19:24] <annevk> zcorpan_, you have to come next week :)
  296. # [19:24] <Lachy> is the difference between a NodeIterator and a TreeWalker that the NodeIterator only looks at child nodes, and the TreeWalker looks at all descendants?
  297. # [19:24] <zcorpan_> annevk: when are you leaving again?
  298. # [19:25] <annevk> zcorpan_, I'm going to Spain the 11th of August and will be back briefly the 17th to attend Friday beer :) The 18th I'll go to the Netherlands for some more vacation afer which university starts again...
  299. # [19:25] <zcorpan_> alrighty
  300. # [19:27] <Philip`> Lachy: createNodeIterator was added in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82625
  301. # [19:27] * Joins: dev0 (i=Tobias@unaffiliated/icefox0)
  302. # [19:28] <Philip`> and it looks like those functions were just added for completeness
  303. # [19:29] <Lachy> Philip`: assuming you mean createTreeWalker was added in that bug, ok.
  304. # [19:29] <Lachy> but it looks like I should be able to use a TreeWalker and nextSibling for my needs anyway
  305. # [19:34] <Philip`> I meant createNodeIterator, or at least the createNodeIterator stub that just returns NS_ERROR_NOT_IMPLEMENTED
  306. # [19:36] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-f6a98af703d23138) ("Fades out again…")
  307. # [19:57] <Lachy> Robert Burns' new quoting technique is so much harder to read :-(
  308. # [19:59] <Lachy> in fact, I just can't read it, cause I can't keep track of where I'm up to!
  309. # [20:00] <Lachy> I sent him off list mail telling him about RFC 2646 and asking him to comply with the existing convention
  310. # [20:01] <annevk> I gave up on reading that e-mail
  311. # [20:02] * annevk thought Hixie would be back this week
  312. # [20:04] <annevk> given http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070705#l-669 he should be, maybe he died!
  313. # [20:07] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  314. # [20:21] <Lachy> I hope he hasn't
  315. # [20:22] <Lachy> I wonder who would know where he is?
  316. # [20:23] <Lachy> some weird is happening with my script. I'm getting a non-existent COL element returned from the tree walker
  317. # [20:29] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  319. # [20:30] <Lachy> oh, it's not weird, it's my mistake :-)
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  349. # [22:29] <jgraham> Astronomy spam is the best
  350. # [22:36] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-253-134.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  351. # [22:41] <hasather> annevk: he's alive: http://twitter.com/Hixie/statuses/178895922
  352. # [22:45] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  355. # [23:06] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) ("clearing IRC client buffers...")
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  357. # [23:08] <Hixie> i have returned
  358. # [23:10] <jgraham> Nice holiday?
  359. # [23:10] <Hixie> certainly it was nice to have a break from public-html
  360. # [23:10] <jgraham> :)
  361. # [23:11] <hasather> Hixie: welcome back
  362. # [23:12] <Hixie> so, anything bad happen while i was away? any servers die?
  363. # [23:12] <Hixie> configurations go mysteriously awry?
  364. # [23:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: there have been complaints about whatwg archives
  365. # [23:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: URIs broke or something
  366. # [23:12] * Hixie looks
  367. # [23:12] <jgraham> The archives are private
  368. # [23:14] <Hixie> fixed
  369. # [23:14] <Hixie> nothing i can do about the uri changes
  370. # [23:16] * Quits: om_out (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  371. # [23:17] * Quits: Charl (n=charlvn@c1-186-13.wblv.isadsl.co.za) ("Leaving")
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  373. # [23:27] <hsivonen> hmm. 1300 messages on public-html this month
  374. # [23:27] <hsivonen> July, that is
  375. # [23:52] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  376. # [23:58] * Quits: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-edfaf6d65b53d917)
  377. # Session Close: Wed Aug 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)