/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 01 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:34] <Philip`> Three more messages to go...
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  32. # [01:35] <Hixie> http://groups.google.com/group/opera.general/browse_thread/thread/c815c26e44f91c3c/2cef47d6d17f260e?q=whatwg&rnum=1#2cef47d6d17f260e
  33. # [01:36] <Hixie> what an amusingly dismissive last two lines
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  36. # [01:49] <Hixie> lol, i just saw the tagline from this channel got put on the blog
  37. # [01:50] <zcorpan_> that was a while ago, i think
  38. # [01:51] <Hixie> i don't read our blog that often :-P
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  41. # [01:58] <zcorpan_> btw, i got employed at opera, so i can continue to work full-time on html5 :)
  42. # [01:58] <Hixie> nice
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  52. # [02:53] * Hixie works his way towards emptying his mailbox of anything other than whatwg and public-html mail
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  54. # [03:00] <Lachy> hsivonen, yt?
  55. # [03:03] <Lachy> hsivonen, compare http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Flachy.id.au%2Ftemp%2Fid.xhtml and http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Flachy.id.au%2Ftemp%2Fid.html
  56. # [03:03] <Lachy> the first in XHTML, the other is HTML. Why is the validity of the id attribute different?
  57. # [03:04] <Hixie> IDs in XML can't start with numbers
  58. # [03:04] <Hixie> according to XML
  59. # [03:05] <Lachy> welcome back Hixie!
  60. # [03:05] <Hixie> not sure what this means in terms of HTML5 though
  61. # [03:05] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  62. # [03:05] * Hixie started the day with ~8000 e-mails
  63. # [03:05] <Hixie> down to ~4000
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  65. # [03:05] <Lachy> I thought that XML issue related to the validity constraint with XML DTDs, and since we're not using DTDs, it didn't matter
  66. # [03:06] * Parts: cstextiles (n=SpShah@59.184.49.168)
  67. # [03:06] <Hixie> yeah, i assume he's got some XML stuff in there somewhere though :-)
  68. # [03:06] <Lachy> did you notice the poll for the selectors api naming debate? That closes later today, if you wanted to put in your vote
  69. # [03:06] <Hixie> done already
  70. # [03:07] <Lachy> cool
  71. # [03:07] <othermaciej> having a poll for that was slightly silly
  72. # [03:07] <othermaciej> but an online poll is still better than a voice vote at a face-to-face meeting
  73. # [03:07] <Hixie> that was the gist of my comment on the poll
  74. # [03:08] <deltab> the xml:id spec requires NCName for ids (not that XHTML uses xml:id)
  75. # [03:08] <deltab> (so it's not just a DTD thing)
  76. # [03:09] <Hixie> in XML it's a DTD thing
  77. # [03:09] <Hixie> in XMLID it's an XML ID thing
  78. # [03:09] <Hixie> in RelaxNG it's a RelaxNG thing
  79. # [03:09] <Hixie> etc :-)
  80. # [03:09] <Hixie> just happens many of them agree
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  82. # [03:10] <Hixie> (insert rant about whatwg being affected by "not invented here" syndrome here, and rant about how whatwg ignores industry practices, etc)
  83. # [03:11] <Lachy> then I wonder why hsivonen's validator marks them different, since I thought it uses RelaxNG for checking some validity issues for both serialisations
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  85. # [03:13] <zcorpan_> it may be that id processing isn't done at all on the html side. or something.
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  97. # [04:19] <Lachy> Hey, I'm looking for a couple of example sites where <meter> could be useful. Any ideas? I need the use cases for my presentation I'm doing on Friday
  98. # [04:20] <Lachy> oh, YouTube is a perfect example!
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  101. # [04:27] <Hixie> Lachy: the example in the spec is from google groups
  102. # [04:28] <Lachy> yeah, I could show that too
  103. # [04:28] <Hixie> there's also the usual thinks like disk usage (google docs, webmail apps)
  104. # [04:29] <Lachy> ah, the spec even has a nice image for me to steal :-)
  105. # [04:29] <Hixie> :-)
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  107. # [04:32] <Lachy> the spec shows this example <meter><object data="graph75.png">0.75</object></meter>, does that work with <img> too?
  108. # [04:32] <Hixie> yup
  109. # [04:32] <Hixie> uh wait
  110. # [04:32] <Hixie> no
  111. # [04:32] <Hixie> we don't yet scan alt="" iirc
  112. # [04:33] <Hixie> though mind you, i haven't even looked at the spec in 3 weeks
  113. # [04:33] <Hixie> so what do i know :-P
  114. # [04:34] <Lachy> ok, I'll use the object example. Is the intention that it would render the image, instead of generating its own bargraph?
  115. # [04:35] <Lachy> (perhaps I should have spent more time working on this, instead of cramming at the last minute)
  116. # [04:36] <Lachy> ah, it probably wouldn't.The image would probably just be fallback for UAs that don't support meter
  117. # [04:36] <Hixie> yeah
  118. # [04:36] <Hixie> the latter
  119. # [04:38] <Lachy> google groups doesn't appear to use that bar graph any more
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  121. # [04:47] <Hixie> heh
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  143. # [06:41] * Hixie wonders what he's supposed to do with http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tvg629ividj3kv@hp-a0a83fcd39d2
  144. # [06:42] <Hixie> i already examined what the browsers did when i wrote the spec
  145. # [06:42] <Hixie> and the e-mail doesn't point out any problems
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  147. # [07:06] <Lachy> without evidence to show that sites depend on one particular behaviour over another, I think the spec is fine as is
  148. # [07:14] <Lachy> Hixie, see the comments. http://www.search-this.com/2007/07/30/html5-tables/
  149. # [07:14] <Lachy> Looks like a possible bug in the table header algorithm.
  150. # [07:14] <Hixie> yeah known issue
  151. # [07:14] <Lachy> ok
  152. # [07:14] <Hixie> my implementation fixes it
  153. # [07:15] <Hixie> i'll port that back to the spec in due course
  154. # [07:15] <Lachy> cool
  155. # [07:15] <Hixie> (the implementation that i used to test whether headers="" helped, that is)
  156. # [07:15] <Hixie> at least if i understand this right
  157. # [07:15] <Hixie> the second comment confused me
  158. # [07:16] <Lachy> I noticed that algorithm doesn't seem to deal with <table><col>, only with <table><colgroup><col>
  159. # [07:16] <Hixie> yeah
  160. # [07:16] <Hixie> didn't know <table><col> was allowed in XHTMl1
  161. # [07:16] <Lachy> it's not, but the algorithm should still deal with it
  162. # [07:16] <Lachy> oh, in XHTML 1, yes it is allowed
  163. # [07:17] <Hixie> yeah we'll have to fix that
  164. # [07:17] <Hixie> there was a mail about it, iirc, i think i saved it to my semantics-table pile
  165. # [07:18] <Lachy> I started writing a JS implementation of it last night.
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  167. # [07:22] * Hixie fears the "conflation of issues or convergence of interests?" thread
  168. # [07:22] <Lachy> actually, that thread has turned out to be quite constructive, for the most part
  169. # [07:22] <Hixie> how unlikely
  170. # [07:23] <othermaciej> hola
  171. # [07:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: there are some offshoots which are not completely insane
  172. # [07:24] <othermaciej> and in any case it is way better than "Re: Formal Recorded Complaint"
  173. # [07:24] <Hixie> hey maciej
  174. # [07:24] <othermaciej> hello Hixie
  175. # [07:24] <othermaciej> back from vacation?
  176. # [07:24] <Hixie> yeah
  177. # [07:25] <othermaciej> cool, did you have a good holiday?
  178. # [07:25] <Hixie> it was... different from work
  179. # [07:25] <othermaciej> well yes, that's the bare minimum one should expect
  180. # [07:26] <Hixie> mostly it was tiring :-)
  181. # [07:26] <Hixie> i started today with 8000 e-mails
  182. # [07:26] <Hixie> i now have 1100
  183. # [07:27] <othermaciej> that's good progress
  184. # [07:27] <Lachy> how on earth do you read so many emails that quickly?
  185. # [07:28] <Hixie> i'm on a LOT of mailing lists, and i don't do more than scan the subject lines of most of them
  186. # [07:28] <Hixie> e.g. i don't do more than scan the subject lines of www-tag
  187. # [07:29] <Lachy> lol, that's what I do with www-tag too
  188. # [07:29] <Hixie> most of the remainder are those that i have to actually read
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  191. # [07:45] <Lachy> in what cases would it be advantageous to use <progress value="60"> instead of just <progress>60%</progress> (or some other appropriate content within the element)?
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  194. # [07:47] <Lachy> oops, that should be <progress value="0.6">
  195. # [07:48] <othermaciej> Lachy: is <progress> expected to render the content text anywhere?
  196. # [07:48] <othermaciej> if so, you might want an amount of kilobytes or something
  197. # [07:48] <Lachy> only as fallback
  198. # [07:48] <othermaciej> instead of a percentage
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  200. # [07:52] <Lachy> oh, I see, it's an advantage when you want to be able to get progress.value, since that would return 0 without the attributes. It never reflects the value parsed from textContent
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  202. # [08:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: your HTML doc was HTML5. your XHTML doc was versionless and the validator picked XHTML 1.0 because XHTML5 is not near CR yet
  203. # [08:13] <Lachy> oh
  204. # [08:13] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  205. # [08:13] <Lachy> I see, it validates if I select HTML5 manually
  206. # [08:14] <Lachy> s/HTML5/XHTML5/
  207. # [08:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, IDs in XML are crazier than just being a DTD thing or an xml:id thing. the permitted charecters in IDs are different in DTDs and in xml:id.
  208. # [08:16] <hsivonen> validator.nu has a long-standing bug here
  209. # [08:17] <hsivonen> (inherited from elsewhere)
  210. # [08:17] <hsivonen> the bug being that the colon is not allowed in IDs for XHTML 1.0
  211. # [08:18] <hsivonen> because the schema uses the XSD definition of ID, but XHTML 1.0 should be subject to the DTD definition of ID
  212. # [08:34] <Lachy> hsivonen: do you have any idea about the origin of the character restrictions in ID and why they are the way they are?
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  217. # [09:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't *know* but I imagine the restriction to Name in XML 1.0 comes from SGML tradition and the production for Name comes from a feeling the for aesthetics Names should capture a certain letter-like format
  218. # [09:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: as for why XSD and xml:id used NCName instead, I can only guess that the writes of the specs didn't want IDs to look like QNames-in-content
  219. # [09:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: anyway, Real Software needs to check those string for equality and both the Name and NCName production are arbitrary
  220. # [09:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: fun
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  223. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> I suspect the reason for character restrictions in ID values is for reasons similar to character restrictions in symbol names in programming languages
  224. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> and in filesystems
  225. # [09:29] <annevk> wb Hixie
  226. # [09:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and in filesystems, the historical convergence has been towards allowing everything except the character reserved for separating path segments
  227. # [09:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: because eventually someone out there wants to use characters that don't fit the sense of aesthetics of the spec writer
  228. # [09:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and no techical badness ensues so it is hard to deny them
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  230. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you won't get any disagreement from me about that. Just was chiming in to speculate on what the thought behind the restriction might have been. FWIW, I've personally run into real-world instances where constraints on ID values are completely counter productive. So I'm not suggesting I think they're sound.
  231. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> I think it's enough of a problem that any tool or processing app that does constraint-checking on ID/xml:id values should offer a switch for disabling it.
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  241. # [12:06] <annevk> jgraham, should we tackle it for HTML5 though or let it rest for HTML6 to tackle?
  242. # [12:06] <annevk> HTML5 already tackles so many issues and there hasn't been much experimental stuff happening yet with namespaces in HTML except one failed attempt at Opera (recognizing xmlns)
  243. # [12:23] <hsivonen> annevk: can you say whether Opera has tried hardwiring well-known prefixes?
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  249. # [12:37] <annevk> hsivonen, I don't think we did, but what exactly do you mean?
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  251. # [12:44] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju[Wacken]
  252. # [12:46] <hsivonen> annevk: I mean hardwiring the rdf prefix to the RDF namespace, the dc prefix to dublin core namespace, svg to svg namespace, etc.
  253. # [12:47] <annevk> so you would have to write <svg:svg> etc. ?
  254. # [12:48] * annevk does not really like that approach
  255. # [12:52] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd like to have scope-based ns mapping for <svg> and <math> subtrees, yes.
  256. # [12:53] <hsivonen> but yes, I did mean doing hardwired things with colonified names
  257. # [12:54] <annevk> and how do you deal with empty elements?
  258. # [12:55] <hsivonen> annevk: /> would have to close the element when in the tag name is colonified or in <svg> or <math> scope
  259. # [12:55] <annevk> hmm
  260. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I care more about <svg> and <math> scoping than about colonified names (except xlink:href)
  261. # [12:56] <zcorpan_> or we make certain tags void?
  262. # [12:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that would miss an opportunity to be forward-compatible with new empty elements added later to MathML or SVG
  263. # [12:57] <zcorpan_> true
  264. # [12:58] <annevk> I'm afraid of breakage
  265. # [12:58] <annevk> I'd rather let this wait until HTML5 parsing itself is reasonably interoperable
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  267. # [13:00] <hsivonen> annevk: I agree we should probably not tackle this in the next 6 months, but I think it is important to make SVG more competitive vs. proprietary closed web technologies
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  270. # [13:04] <Lucian> hi
  271. # [13:04] <annevk> hi
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  273. # [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, that's a fair point I suppose
  274. # [13:21] <hsivonen> annevk: fwiw, the text scaling issue applies to font zoom and em-sized canvases anyway
  275. # [13:22] <annevk> well, I meant that if the canvas size depended on the size of the div
  276. # [13:22] <annevk> that is, if the canvas grid depended on the rendered size of the <div>
  277. # [13:22] <annevk> (the canvas grid for <canvas> depends on width and height, which simply take integers)
  278. # [13:23] <hsivonen> oh. I missed the point
  279. # [13:25] <annevk> I suppose it was not clear
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  284. # [14:16] <hsivonen> whoa! the XHTML2 WG namespace minutes are 11 months old!
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  286. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> how is "version 1.0 or later of XML" different or more specific than "some version of XML"?
  287. # [14:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it looks more rigorous than "some"
  288. # [14:26] * annevk made http://html5.org/ more usable
  289. # [14:45] <annevk> hsivonen, isn't the table sorted?
  290. # [14:47] <Philip`> It isn't - it puts "AElig;" before "AElig"
  291. # [14:47] <annevk> Hixie, help-whatwg and implementors-whatwg are affected as well
  292. # [14:49] <annevk> ah, I see, oh well, it doesn't realy matter as long as we keep a dictionary implementation
  293. # [14:49] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/parser/tokeniser.html uses a big entityNameMatch regexp, which sorts the names by descending length, but my C++ one uses a lexicographically-sorted table instead since I copied hsivonen's idea)
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  295. # [14:55] <annevk> a \ exposes a bug in your JS tokenizer
  296. # [14:56] <Philip`> ?
  297. # [14:57] <annevk> it outputs \\
  298. # [14:58] <hsivonen> aren't you supposed to escape \ in JSON?
  299. # [14:58] <Philip`> You are supposed to
  300. # [14:58] <Philip`> which is why it does :-)
  301. # [14:58] <annevk> oh
  302. # [14:58] * annevk hides
  303. # [14:58] <Philip`> The "Serialised HTML" view gives a single \
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  306. # [15:16] <grimeboy> You know it'd be pretty interesting if HTMLAudioElements had an attribute of type string called waveform, or even better an attribute of type byte_array called waveform.
  307. # [15:18] <grimeboy> Actually javascript needs a ByteArray.
  308. # [15:18] <Philip`> For reading the waveform, or for altering it?
  309. # [15:19] <annevk> ES4 has a byte array
  310. # [15:19] <grimeboy> Both.
  311. # [15:19] <annevk> XMLHttpRequest level 2 is going to use it
  312. # [15:19] <grimeboy> Oh that's good.
  313. # [15:19] <Philip`> Byte arrays wouldn't be very useful for 16-bit audio
  314. # [15:20] <grimeboy> No, probably not.
  315. # [15:21] <Philip`> For just generating audio files dynamically, I guess you can already do audio.src = 'data:audio/wav;base64,...'
  316. # [15:22] <grimeboy> Oh right. That's a interesting idea.
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  318. # [15:27] <Philip`> Are there specific cases for which it'd be useful to read the waveform?
  319. # [15:28] <Philip`> (I can't think of anything obvious that wouldn't be horribly slow to do in JavaScript...)
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  321. # [15:39] <grimeboy> No, I suppose most things would be too slow (although javascript implementations are getting faster). I was thinking the traditional stuff, changing pitch, averaging with a sine wave, etc. etc.
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  323. # [16:13] <zcorpan> annevk: the thread is about wrap=off specifically
  324. # [16:13] <annevk> does that map to soft?
  325. # [16:14] <zcorpan> submission-wise yes, rendering-wise no
  326. # [16:14] <annevk> oh, I see
  327. # [16:15] <annevk> spec doesn't seem to deal with invalid values
  328. # [16:16] <annevk> edited my reply
  329. # [16:17] <zcorpan> "For other attributes that contain invalid values"
  330. # [16:18] <annevk> so like soft
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  416. # [22:58] <Hixie> annevk: IE supports draggable=""??
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  423. # [23:43] <Xsss4hell> hi
  424. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> hi
  425. # [23:43] <Xsss4hell> http://webforms2.org/ is offline
  426. # [23:43] <Xsss4hell> or are you just redesigning?
  427. # [23:44] <zcorpan_> probably just down temporarily
  428. # [23:44] <Xsss4hell> yep, hope it's back in some minutes =)
  429. # [23:45] <Xsss4hell> I'm developing a framework and wanted to use this nice xforms
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  436. # Session Close: Thu Aug 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)