/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 02 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <Xsss4hell> which xpath and xforms frameworks do you recommend for clients having browser which do not support xforms and xpath
  4. # [00:04] <Xsss4hell> I'm talking about IE :P
  5. # [00:06] <zcorpan_> are there browsers that natively support xforms?
  6. # [00:07] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: your test case sucks ;) "FAIL" should be "This text should be striked out"
  7. # [00:08] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: or better yet, "This line should have a green background" along with background:lime
  8. # [00:09] <zcorpan_> and p { background:red }
  9. # [00:09] <Philip`> (Is it striked or struck? Or maybe it could be strike outed)
  10. # [00:11] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3Ep%7Bbackground%3Ared%7D%23t%E91%5C%24t%7Bbackground%3Alime%7D%3C/style%3E%3Cp%20id%3D%22t%E91%24t%22%3EThis%20line%20should%20have%20a%20green%20background.
  11. # [00:14] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: meh. throwing stuff together while half asleep :P
  12. # [00:14] <jgraham> annevk: I think we will have to at least look at the issue (SVG+etc. in text/html) for HTML 5. I have no idea what the outcome will be.
  13. # [00:14] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: fair enough :)
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  15. # [00:14] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: and also in the middle of doing other stuff
  16. # [00:26] <Xsss4hell> no script that enabled xpath and xforms crossbrowser?
  17. # [00:32] <zcorpan_> Xsss4hell: i don't know of any. there is an xforms player plugin for ie and an extension or something for firefox, though, iirc
  18. # [00:32] <zcorpan_> Xsss4hell: there are however scripted implementations of web forms 2.0
  19. # [00:33] <zcorpan_> Xsss4hell: and opera supports wf2 natively
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  21. # [00:43] <Xsss4hell> I've found some xpath and xforms player but thought you know better, however thankx
  22. # [00:43] <Xsss4hell> sf.net^^
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  26. # [01:03] <Hixie> only 772 e-mails to go
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  36. # [01:25] <Hixie> Robert Burns and I interpret XHTML2 and related issues in rather dramatically different ways.
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  39. # [01:32] <Hixie> man, some people are taking this stuff way too seriously
  40. # [01:32] <Hixie> lighten up people, it's only a markup language
  41. # [01:33] * othermaciej is now known as om_meet
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  47. # [02:09] <Hixie> blimey, what's with the obsession with xhtml
  48. # [02:09] <Hixie> didn't we already establish that was a waste of time?
  49. # [02:12] <zcorpan_> no, it's the future and the answer to all problems :)
  50. # [02:12] <Hixie> sheesh
  51. # [02:13] * Hixie couldn't care less about which syntax people use
  52. # [02:13] <Hixie> but really
  53. # [02:13] <Hixie> arguing about what the syntax should be is a waste of time
  54. # [02:13] <Hixie> since it's not going to change
  55. # [02:18] <grimboy> semantics > syntax
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  61. # [02:36] <kingryan> grimboy: don't you mean "semantics &gt; syntax"?
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  63. # [02:37] <grimboy> Heh
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  100. # [07:56] <Hixie> robert burns has too much free time
  101. # [07:56] <Hixie> i swear he accounts for like half the volume to public-html
  102. # [07:57] <Hixie> and his e-mails are rarely short
  103. # [07:57] <Hixie> i don't really know if his posts are especially good, because my eyes start to glaze over when i get to an e-mail from him, because subconsciously i realise that i can get through the mail much faster if i just skip his
  104. # [07:58] <Hixie> i need to read them more carefully
  105. # [08:00] <othermaciej> he is not so clueless that you could immediately dismiss him, but his understanding of many issues seems murky
  106. # [08:01] <karlUshi> http://www.robburns.com/
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  114. # [08:38] <Hixie> wow, some people really have trouble with namespaces
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  116. # [08:39] <Hixie> at least one of these threads has a number of people repeatedly misreading what I thought was a pretty simple statement about namespaces
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  120. # [09:18] <Hixie> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=253027&threshold=-1&commentsort=3&mode=nested&pid=20064769
  121. # [09:18] <Hixie> slashdot is weird
  122. # [09:18] <Hixie> (me and zcorpan trying to explain something to someone commenting there)
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  124. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> slashdot is hopeless
  125. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> except for the entertainment value provided by some people who post there
  126. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> much of which entertainment is unintended on the part of the people posting there
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  128. # [09:51] <karlUshi> what is the color of Henri IV's white horse? (translated from French say for children) cf "slashdot is weird"
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  136. # [10:59] <annevk> Hixie, I thought it did
  137. # [11:00] <annevk> Seems I was wrong: http://www.google.com/search?q=msdn+draggable
  138. # [11:00] <annevk> (that's not a testcase, but it comes pretty close...)
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  153. # [15:16] <Xsss4hell> Do you have recommendations related to css typography and layouts?
  154. # [15:18] <annevk> you probably want something like #css
  155. # [15:20] <Xsss4hell> haha I'm already in that chanell ^^
  156. # [15:20] <Xsss4hell> And I'm pretty good with css
  157. # [15:20] <Xsss4hell> But I'm open to learn new things
  158. # [15:21] <annevk> from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#scope "The scope of this specification does not include addressing presentation concerns (although default rendering rules for Web browsers are included at the end of this specification)."
  159. # [15:22] <Xsss4hell> Isn't WHATWG a consortion that heps standards that were left alone by W3C. So that's why I'm here, to learn..
  160. # [15:22] <annevk> well, we're working together with the W3C again
  161. # [15:22] <annevk> s/again/now/
  162. # [15:23] <annevk> currently "we"'re not doing anything related to typography or layouts
  163. # [15:23] <annevk> just HTML, APIs, etc.
  164. # [15:23] <Xsss4hell> I know you're defining new standards
  165. # [15:26] <annevk> well, then I'm not sure how I can help you :)
  166. # [15:29] <Xsss4hell> OK, I've once tried an aplha of XHTML2, it was pretty powerful, but it power was just limited to things that were intended to preset in the preview, it was a closed preview, or it was very hard to find any information about it, I don't know. But can you tell me any news related to XHTML2, can I start websites with it now? I mean is the draft finished but just needs approvement by the w3c, or is it not ready yet.
  167. # [15:31] <annevk> We're not working on XHTML2
  168. # [15:31] <Xsss4hell> only HTML5?
  169. # [15:31] <Xsss4hell> hmm..
  170. # [15:32] <Xsss4hell> so why XHTML2 and HTML5? I don't understand
  171. # [15:32] <annevk> yes, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#relationship0
  172. # [15:33] <zcorpan> http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/#why-html5-xhtml2
  173. # [15:44] <Xsss4hell> ok I've read it all
  174. # [15:46] <Xsss4hell> I just hope, microsoft doesn't buy html5.
  175. # [15:48] <annevk> ?
  176. # [15:48] <Xsss4hell> oh http://webforms2.org/ is still down
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  178. # [15:48] <Xsss4hell> somebody informed the site owner?
  179. # [15:52] <Xsss4hell> I want to use webform2, but they're offline. aarrrgh http://webforms2.org/
  180. # [15:52] <Xsss4hell> since 2days or more..
  181. # [15:52] <Xsss4hell> a w3c site
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  183. # [15:53] <Philip`> webforms2.org doesn't seem to have ever existed
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  185. # [15:54] <Philip`> Oh, maybe it did, but Google's not very good at finding it
  186. # [15:54] <zcorpan> Xsss4hell: what did you expect to find at webforms2.org?
  187. # [15:55] <annevk> Philip`, http://whois.domaintools.com/webforms2.org
  188. # [15:55] <annevk> It most certainly existed
  189. # [15:55] <mpt> Xsss4hell, it's probably impossible for Microsoft to "buy" html5
  190. # [15:56] <Philip`> http://web.archive.org/web/20070125014928/http://webforms2.org/ - it doesn't seem to have existed in terms of having actual content
  191. # [15:56] <Xsss4hell> I just wanted to use webforms2 on my websites with all browsers that support it, and serve other browsers an alternative
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  193. # [15:57] <zcorpan> was it this? http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/
  194. # [15:57] <Xsss4hell> so before..I use it: webforms2 or xforms??
  195. # [15:57] <mpt> Xsss4hell, you may be looking for http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/
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  198. # [15:58] <Xsss4hell> Thanks for your help :)
  199. # [15:59] <annevk> zcorpan, a frontpage for that I believe, yes
  200. # [15:59] <Xsss4hell> omg (2005-09-28 13:08)
  201. # [15:59] <Philip`> Oh, it did have content once - http://web.archive.org/web/20070327030455/http://webforms2.org/download/wf2_0_1.zip
  202. # [15:59] <Xsss4hell> yes, it is the frontpage for weforms2.org
  203. # [16:00] <annevk> Xsss4hell, Web Forms 2 has been stable for quite some time, but it has had bug fixes since that date (latest is October 2006), eventually it will be integrated into HTML5
  204. # [16:01] <Xsss4hell> oh, so I don't need to use it until 2022?
  205. # [16:01] <Xsss4hell> oh my..
  206. # [16:02] <annevk> ??
  207. # [16:03] <Xsss4hell> the docs say html5 will be ready earlier but we expect it getting fully supported or whatever in ~2022
  208. # [16:04] <zcorpan> Xsss4hell: html4 is not interoperably implemented. css level 2 is not interoperably implemented. can you use those today anyway?
  209. # [16:04] <Xsss4hell> yes I can, with lotta hacks and quirks. until then 20.000 test nees to be written an passsed, they say
  210. # [16:05] <annevk> prolly more
  211. # [16:06] <zcorpan> Xsss4hell: yeah. so you can use new features in html5 as they get implemented (although they may well have some bugs initially)
  212. # [16:07] <Xsss4hell> What I find is kinda weird is that the us military already have a working prototype of a new web-protocol that is thousand times faster then http and compresses so good that you can get some gb/s with a normal broadband cable connection..
  213. # [16:08] <zcorpan> that's cool
  214. # [16:08] <Xsss4hell> and thats old news..^^
  215. # [16:08] <Xsss4hell> they've things oh lord...
  216. # [16:10] <Xsss4hell> u know that there is already a cpu with 16cores and two 10gb/s lanes for network? It was a military chip producer, until they got dissmissed due to better concurennce
  217. # [16:10] <Xsss4hell> now they make high-end pc parts
  218. # [16:12] <Xsss4hell> Where to find practical examples of HTML5, with and without webforms or xforms or whatever =)
  219. # [16:13] <zcorpan> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/improve-your-forms-using-html5/
  220. # [16:13] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/presentations/html5-geekmeet.en
  221. # [16:14] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/suggest/
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  223. # [16:20] <Xsss4hell> thaaaaaaaaaanks
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  240. # [18:29] <zcorpan> annevk: http://quuz.org/xml5/play?source=%3Cxml%3Afoo%3E
  241. # [18:29] <zcorpan> should be in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace
  242. # [18:30] <zcorpan> similarly <xmlns:foo>
  243. # [18:31] <zcorpan> or wait
  244. # [18:32] * zcorpan got unsure about xmlns
  245. # [18:33] <zcorpan> "Element names MUST NOT have the prefix xmlns."
  246. # [18:35] <zcorpan> well, as far as xml5 goes, the logical thing to do would be to just act as if it was declared, i.e. same as the xml prefix
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  248. # [18:46] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  249. # [18:50] <Philip`> Is there any documentation on how IE handles XML-like tags outside of a <xml>?
  250. # [18:50] <gsnedders> I would hedge a bet at "no"
  251. # [18:51] <zcorpan> Philip`: define XML-like tags
  252. # [18:51] <Philip`> Tags with colons
  253. # [18:51] <Philip`> or I think ([a-zA-Z][^:>/\s]*):([^>/\s]+) in particular
  254. # [18:54] <Philip`> <x:y>...</x:y> makes an element with actual content, <x:y/> makes a void element, etc
  255. # [18:54] <zcorpan> i haven't seen documentation, but i've played with it a bit
  256. # [18:54] <Philip`> <x:y>a<x:z>b</x:y>c</x:y> does the usual non-tree thing
  257. # [18:54] <Philip`> Oops
  258. # [18:54] <Philip`> <x:y>a<x:z>b</x:y>c</x:z>
  259. # [18:54] <zcorpan> stray end tags are ignored
  260. # [18:54] <zcorpan> a start tag with a non-declared prefix implies a PI before it... or something
  261. # [18:54] <zcorpan> <?xml:namespace prefix = x />
  262. # [18:54] <zcorpan> at least when getting innerHTML
  263. # [18:56] <Philip`> <html xmlns:x="foo">Test<x:y> gives innerHTML with <BODY>Test<?xml:namespace prefix = x ns = "foo" /><x:y></x:y></BODY>
  264. # [18:56] <Philip`> but only when the xmlns is on <html>, not any other element
  265. # [18:57] <zcorpan> ah indeed
  266. # [18:57] <Philip`> (though you can put in multiple <html> tags anywhere and it uses them all)
  267. # [18:58] <zcorpan> innerHTML will output the PI if the declarations are on the element itself or an ancestor
  268. # [18:59] <zcorpan> attributes are parsed the same way as on other tags
  269. # [19:00] <zcorpan> end tags can have attributes in the tokenizer (</x:x y=">">)
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  275. # [19:08] <Philip`> document.namespaces gives an array of them, including explicit (via <html xmlns:x>) and implicit (via <x:y>) ones
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  277. # [19:09] <Philip`> (The namespace object has properties name, urn, and tagNames except the last one just gives me "not implemented" errors)
  278. # [19:10] <Philip`> (and onreadystatechange and readyState (?!))
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  280. # [19:16] <Philip`> It's fun how MSDN is missing much of the information about these things, and much of the information that it does have is incorrect
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  305. # [21:44] <annevk> Hixie, since you're online, the help-whatwg and implementors-whatwg archives are still not public
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  311. # [21:58] <Hixie> fixed
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  313. # [22:01] <annevk> cool
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  322. # [22:17] <annevk> Interoperability is such a great thing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0002/offset-mess.htm
  323. # [22:17] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@pae3703.tokyte00.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  324. # [22:18] <othermaciej> I wonder if Safari matches any of those
  325. # [22:18] <annevk> no access to Safari here, would be nice to have results
  326. # [22:19] <othermaciej> annevk: http://www.apple.com/safari/download/
  327. # [22:19] <annevk> for Ubuntu?
  328. # [22:19] <othermaciej> did someone else do the IE7 tests?
  329. # [22:19] <othermaciej> I assumed you had Windows based on that
  330. # [22:19] <annevk> ah, I have some hack to run IE7
  331. # [22:20] <othermaciej> or I can try it for you, but I don't know how to determine the table results from the test case that's referenced
  332. # [22:20] * Parts: wildcfo (n=wild_c_f@ip72-200-106-241.tc.ph.cox.net) ("Leaving")
  333. # [22:21] <annevk> check body or the html element; put the doc in quirks or standards and put lots of content in it (that causes a scrollbar) and few and observe the changes on the side
  334. # [22:21] <annevk> roughly
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  337. # [22:26] <annevk> the main problem is deciding what is correct
  338. # [22:27] <annevk> as it will break stuff; in fact, it is already breaking stuff
  339. # [22:29] <othermaciej> I'm not smart enough to know offhand how to test whether <body> is getting the viewport height or ICB height or the max
  340. # [22:29] <othermaciej> if you point me to specific test cases to run I can report results
  341. # [22:30] <annevk> the viewport height of the box is roughly 256, you'll see it directly if body doesn't contain any content
  342. # [22:30] <annevk> say it's 256 without content and something larger than 256 with content that causes a scrollbar you know it's max
  343. # [22:30] <annevk> if it stays 256 it's vh
  344. # [22:31] <annevk> if it's some small without content and increments with new content it's icb
  345. # [22:31] <othermaciej> with the default contents of the test page
  346. # [22:31] <othermaciej> http://tc.labs.opera.com/tools/cssom/layout-dom-attributes
  347. # [22:31] <othermaciej> I have a height of 18
  348. # [22:31] <othermaciej> for the div
  349. # [22:31] <othermaciej> body is 18/256/18
  350. # [22:32] <othermaciej> html is 18/18/256
  351. # [22:32] <othermaciej> if I take off the doctype entirely is that good enough to test quirks mode
  352. # [22:32] <othermaciej> ?
  353. # [22:32] <annevk> yeah
  354. # [22:32] <othermaciej> quirks div - 18/18/18
  355. # [22:32] <othermaciej> quirks body - 18/256/18
  356. # [22:33] <othermaciej> quirks html - 18/256/18
  357. # [22:33] <othermaciej> er
  358. # [22:33] <othermaciej> wrong
  359. # [22:33] <othermaciej> quirks html is 18/18/256
  360. # [22:33] <othermaciej> so there don't appear to be quirks/strict differences in webkit
  361. # [22:33] <annevk> put in lots of content that causes a scrollbar and test again?
  362. # [22:34] <annevk> (and are these results in testpage order or result page order?)
  363. # [22:35] <othermaciej> result page order
  364. # [22:35] <othermaciej> top to bottom
  365. # [22:35] <othermaciej> offsetHeight / scrollHeight / clientHeight
  366. # [22:37] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  367. # [22:38] <othermaciej> annevk: ok, I added enough content to make it scroll
  368. # [22:38] <othermaciej> standards mode div w/ scroll - 486/486/486
  369. # [22:38] <annevk> then just do the same tests again and report the new results (<div> is not needed fwiw)
  370. # [22:38] <mpt> zcorpan, is <http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/suggest/> supposed to work in any released browsers?
  371. # [22:38] <othermaciej> standards mode body w/ scroll - 486/486/486
  372. # [22:39] <othermaciej> standards mode html w/ scroll - 486/486/256
  373. # [22:39] <othermaciej> quirks mode is the same
  374. # [22:40] <mpt> zcorpan, never mind, I see it works in Opera :-)
  375. # [22:42] <annevk> so you guys didn't need any quirks standards mode differences...
  376. # [22:42] <annevk> interesting
  377. # [22:42] <annevk> othermaciej, this is WebKit from what day?
  378. # [22:46] <othermaciej> annevk: today
  379. # [22:48] <othermaciej> annevk: we certainly could be having compat issues due to our behavior - just none that have bubbled to the top of the fix pile
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  381. # [22:49] <annevk> seems you guys have reverse engineered standards mode behavior in other browsers
  382. # [22:50] <annevk> I e-mailed a new version to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/ but it doesn't seem to have appeared just yet
  383. # [22:52] <annevk> hmm, maybe I did something wrong; oh well, if it's not there tomorrow I'll e-mail it again
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The end :)