/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 04 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:47] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i can't get to that site, is it down?
  10. # [00:48] <hsivonen> oh dear. this "low quality" thing is going to be a rathole
  11. # [00:51] <Hixie> it's the same style="" rathole we've always had
  12. # [00:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: no. now it is becoming a b and i rathole as well
  13. # [00:55] <Hixie> othermaciej_: <font> and style="" are "low quality" because they are media-specific, and potentially hide information from non-presentational UAs.
  14. # [00:56] <Hixie> othermaciej_: <div>s-containing-inlines are "low quality" because they imply some sort of paragraphing structure without giving any information about why
  15. # [00:57] <Hixie> othermaciej_: (typically, the latter is used as a workaround for the lack of a widget abstraction language like xbl)
  16. # [00:57] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  17. # [00:57] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't see how style="" is media-specific
  18. # [00:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: it lacks the ability to give different styles per media, but can still be used in media-independent ways
  19. # [00:58] <othermaciej> since in practice most styles are not media-scoped anyway, nor do they need to be
  20. # [00:59] <Hixie> ok, strike the media-specific part
  21. # [00:59] <othermaciej> in that case, style="" hides no more information than <style>, <link rel="stylesheet"> or <style scoped>
  22. # [00:59] <Hixie> (though i actually do believe they usually result in media-specific content, even if it's technically possible to use them otherwise)
  23. # [00:59] <othermaciej> none of which you have labelled "low quality"
  24. # [01:00] <othermaciej> I have to go grab a beer, brb
  25. # [01:00] <Hixie> i considered including <style>, but in practice if you use a style sheet with selectors you tend to be pushed towards content that can stand even without the stylesheet.
  26. # [01:01] <Hixie> obviously though that's not automatically the case, which is why the other mode wouldn't be called "high quality"
  27. # [01:05] <othermaciej> back
  28. # [01:06] <othermaciej> if you include <style> and <link rel="stylesheet"> it would make it pretty hard to have a useful non-low-quality document
  29. # [01:06] <Hixie> indeed
  30. # [01:07] <othermaciej> but I don't think there's any evidence of a difference in hiding information from non-presentational UAs between those and style=""
  31. # [01:07] <Hixie> oh come now
  32. # [01:07] <othermaciej> I mean, that might be the case, but I am not sure how you would quantify it
  33. # [01:08] <Hixie> oh i don't know that it could be quantified
  34. # [01:09] <othermaciej> is there any way to show evidence for or against?
  35. # [01:09] <Hixie> but it certainly is clear to me that you can improve the quality of almost any document with <font>, style="", or <div>s-containing-inlines, whereas i don't think the same can be said of all documents that do not have those characteristics.
  36. # [01:09] <Hixie> objectively? i don't know
  37. # [01:09] <Hixie> i haven't looked at it in detail
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  39. # [01:10] <othermaciej> obviously it's hard to argue against your proposal if it is based on an an unfalsifiable claim
  40. # [01:11] <Hixie> it's not really a proposal
  41. # [01:11] <Hixie> just an idea
  42. # [01:11] <Hixie> i don't think we can drop style="", <font>, and <div>s-containing-inlines altogether
  43. # [01:11] <othermaciej> ok, s/proposal/idea/
  44. # [01:11] <Hixie> but i do think that we should discourage their use in favour of the alternatives
  45. # [01:11] <Philip`> Could call it "Compatibility" instead of "Low quality", and have it provide the features that are compatible with implementations and content and forbid things that are likely to cause authors pain and not attempt to make subjective judgements of value
  46. # [01:11] <othermaciej> dropping all those would certainly make a lot of documents nonconforming for seemingly-gratuitous reasons
  47. # [01:12] <Hixie> Philip`: it's not really compatibility either, since if we were desigining the language from scratch, you'd still want these features
  48. # [01:12] <othermaciej> I just don't see any reason to discourage style="" if <style scoped> won't be similarly discouraged
  49. # [01:12] <othermaciej> the latter can be abused in all the same ways, the main difference is that it is more verbose
  50. # [01:13] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm not even talking about legacy content, even for a brand new language with no content i think these features are necessary, e.g. for prototyping
  51. # [01:13] <othermaciej> and less compatible with compatible with existing UAs
  52. # [01:13] <Hixie> nor am i talking about abuse
  53. # [01:13] <Hixie> you can abuse <ins> and <del>
  54. # [01:13] <Hixie> and anything else
  55. # [01:13] <Hixie> i'm talking about completely conforming and correct uses
  56. # [01:13] <othermaciej> ok, let me put it this way
  57. # [01:13] <othermaciej> I don't think systematically replacing all style="" with <style scoped> would improve any documents
  58. # [01:13] <Hixie> i agree
  59. # [01:14] <Hixie> it's a case-by-case problem
  60. # [01:14] <Hixie> sometimes style="" has to be replaced with samething else, e.g. using a different element altogether
  61. # [01:14] <othermaciej> thus, creating an incentive to do so (badge-seeking behavior, etc) seems like a bad idea
  62. # [01:15] <Hixie> granted, but it seems better than giving the impression that a page that uses only <div>s and style="" is fine.
  63. # [01:16] <Hixie> bbl
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  66. # [01:24] <othermaciej> I agree such documents are not great; just not sure how to make a good machine-checkable rule that detects bad style
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  68. # [01:48] <Hixie> yeah
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  72. # [02:00] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i think having different conformance levels is a bad idea. we should just allow style="" and <div>s containing inlines but perhaps discourage the former for authors
  73. # [02:02] <Hixie> how?
  74. # [02:03] <zcorpan_> by saying that they are conforming, and then having a note about why style="" can be harmful
  75. # [02:04] <zcorpan_> this way, badge hunters won't replace their style=""s with more verbose but no better alternatives, and people can cite the spec about why people shouldn't use style=""
  76. # [02:05] <zcorpan_> (i don't think <div>s containing inlines is harmful)
  77. # [02:07] <Hixie> there are pages that consist of nothing but <div>s and style=""s
  78. # [02:07] <Hixie> or even just <div>s and stylesheets
  79. # [02:08] <zcorpan_> indeed
  80. # [02:09] <zcorpan_> they are not going to disappear if we label them non-conforming, but some might be rewritten to use constructs that pass validation without increasing the quality or semantics
  81. # [02:10] <zcorpan_> i don't think labeling them non-conforming will result in them being rewritten to use semantic markup
  82. # [02:12] <Hixie> it might not affect _those_ pages, but i think it would help with people the same way that having "strict" vs "transitional" has helped some in terms of mindshare growth
  83. # [02:13] <zcorpan_> hmm, perhaps
  84. # [02:15] <Philip`> That seems to resulted in people choosing to use transitional twenty times more often than strict
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  94. # [04:48] <Lachy_> <alt for=idref> is exactly the kind of explicit association that won't work in reality. I do not understand why some people have concluded explicit markup associations are the only way to solve the problem - they seem to be ignoring the expressiveness of natural language
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  103. # [08:04] <Hixie> "Fine, so my comparison wasn't perfect. None ever are." is an interesting way of dismissing someone's counterargument that i hadn't seen before
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  115. # [10:54] <Dashiva> Lachy_, Hixie: Grumbling in here is just going to spawn another formal objection, be careful ;)
  116. # [10:55] <Lachy_> Dashiva: we're still allowed to discuss issues in here
  117. # [10:56] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  118. # [10:56] <gsnedders> Lachy_: even though it's logged in the same place?
  119. # [10:57] <Lachy> gsnedders: the fact that it's logged doesn't matter
  120. # [10:58] <Lachy> as long as our comments focus on the issue and not attack anyone personally, it's fine
  121. # [11:10] <hsivonen> hmm. apparently the W3C survey system uses colons in ids
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  125. # [11:26] <Hixie> i'll be damned if i'm going to let people stop me from chatting about html on irc
  126. # [11:36] <ROBOd> <hello world=all>
  127. # [11:37] <ROBOd> i have a question: is there any implementation of the outlining algorithm?
  128. # [11:41] <krijnh> Man, that Lachy is irritating me
  129. # [11:41] <krijnh> Ow, wait
  130. # [11:41] <Lachy> ?
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  140. # [13:05] <Philip`> ROBOd: Does the implementation in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#outlines count?
  141. # [13:08] <zcorpan_> re sam ruby's idea with cdata, isn't it better to hide the text with css than to use a specific syntactic construct?
  142. # [13:08] <ROBOd> Philip`: not really. i was thinking of some independent implementation
  143. # [13:09] <ROBOd> Philip`: one that also determines which heading and section applies to a particular node
  144. # [13:09] <zcorpan_> svg\:svg { display:none; } should do the trick, also for browsers that don't support declarative namespaces
  145. # [13:09] <ROBOd> using the given algorithm
  146. # [13:10] <zcorpan_> ROBOd: i don't know of any
  147. # [13:10] <Philip`> zcorpan_: You'd want to hide it from browsers that support namespaces but don't support SVG
  148. # [13:11] <Philip`> (Also svg\:svg would hide it from IE, which does support namespaces)
  149. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> Philip`: sam's proposal doesn't address that either
  150. # [13:11] <zcorpan_> (but it doesn't support svg, which is why he wanted to hide the text from ie)
  151. # [13:12] <zcorpan_> Philip`: however, other browsers already support svg, so that is a non-issue
  152. # [13:13] <hsivonen> hmm. I now see that the quality of English in my reply to Sam is really poor. fortunately, English doesn't use Draconian error handling.
  153. # [13:14] <hsivonen> my problem is that I don't see my own errors until I have flushed the writing flow from my head
  154. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> is error handling for English defined? :)
  155. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: try reading backwards, that sometimes helps finding errors
  156. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> but mostly just typos
  157. # [13:17] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I suppose SVG is already supported everywhere but if you used e.g. MathML then you wouldn't want non-MathML-supporting browsers showing all the raw textual content
  158. # [13:17] <Philip`> (but then you probably wouldn't want it to just show nothing at all)
  159. # [13:18] <zcorpan_> indeed. so don't do m\:math { display:none; } ... ;)
  160. # [13:20] <zcorpan_> i don't know of any good fallback story for inline mathml
  161. # [13:21] <zcorpan_> you either use mathml or GIF or html tables
  162. # [13:39] <hsivonen> it is interesting how people are complaining on www-validator about the validator now being more correct with XML
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  171. # [15:15] * annevk notices replies to ancient e-mails in his mailbox, directed to fora@annevankesteren.nl :-o
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  176. # [16:14] <gsnedders> annevk: you were referencing a script by Bert Bos when discussing the formatting of the spec (pointlessly at this stage), is it available anywhere?
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  178. # [16:49] <zcorpan_> wow http://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-lexicon/
  179. # [17:12] <annevk> gsnedders, if you're a W3C Member
  180. # [17:20] <Lachy> Hixie was right, Ratatouille is really good movie :-)
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  185. # [18:30] <gsnedders> Ratatouille isn't out here till Oct :(
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The end :)