/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 08 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: apparently & is not allowed in the fragment identifier so the IRI parser barfs
  4. # [00:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: the form on validator.whatwg.org is ok
  5. # [00:03] <Hixie> interesting about &
  6. # [00:04] <Philip`> Is <base target="_self"> meant to do anything at all useful? (If it does, I can't work out what it is, but TinyMCE appears to use it quite frequently)
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  8. # [00:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: hmm. perhaps it isn't the IRI parser at all. but the HTTP lib doesn't like getting any fragment ids
  9. # [00:09] <hsivonen> I guess I should use the IRI lib to zap the fragment id
  10. # [00:11] <Hixie> yeah you shouldn't send fragids over the wire
  11. # [00:11] <Hixie> maybe the http lib just doesn't know to drop them :-)
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: it probably creates a new window called _self and then targets that a lot - unless something first did window.name = "_self_ ?
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  80. # [04:28] <Hixie> anyone have examples of pages that have custom context menus?
  81. # [04:28] <Hixie> like google maps or live search maps
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  90. # [05:37] <gavin_> the zimbra web ui uses custom context menus
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  95. # [06:23] <Hixie> so anyone know what's up with anne's site?
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  99. # [06:46] * Hixie is more and more convinced that we should only allow integers for <img height/width> and they should match the image coordinates
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  104. # [07:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: (in case you have any influence over the web gallery / iphoto / .mac folks, see http://gallery.mac.com/emily_parker#100335&bgcolor=black with stylesheets disabled)
  105. # [07:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: (that page is an example of why i don't like inlines-in-<div>s and style="" being considered 1st class citizens)
  106. # [07:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't like the div soup design antipattern either
  107. # [07:19] <othermaciej> what iWeb generates is even worse
  108. # [07:19] <Hixie> in other news, <input type=image usemap="#..."> only seems to work in opera and firefox, not in safari and IE
  109. # [07:19] <Hixie> i wonder whether we should support it or not
  110. # [07:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: yikes
  111. # [07:20] <othermaciej> there output is full of, I kid you not, <div class="paragraph">
  112. # [07:20] <Hixie> hah
  113. # [07:25] <Hixie> according to some old data I have, 17% of usemap="" attributes on <img> elements have the value "#Map"
  114. # [07:26] <Hixie> not original, but it works, i guess
  115. # [07:27] <Hixie> roughly 0.008% of <input type=image> elements have usemap="" attributes
  116. # [07:27] <Hixie> i wonder how many have useful values
  117. # [07:28] <Hixie> (it's less common than <input price="">, <input heigth="">, <input typ="">, <input enable="">, <input 1px="">, etc)
  118. # [07:30] <othermaciej> price=""?
  119. # [07:30] <Hixie> dunno
  120. # [07:30] <Hixie> (see topic)
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  145. # [11:04] <zcorpan> "[ac] (1) Make id='' required on <map>. Let me know if that's a problem."
  146. # [11:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: i've suggested to use name="" instead
  147. # [11:06] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010975.html
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  153. # [12:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, any time a common attribute becomes required on a particular element, it is an inconvenience for me. (though this probably isn't a reason not to require them, but anyway)
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  155. # [12:15] <annevk> you shouldn't say that :)
  156. # [12:16] <hsivonen> annevk: say what? the part in parentheses or before?
  157. # [12:16] <annevk> the whole sentence
  158. # [12:17] <annevk> anyway, isn't it quite easy to add required attributes using RNG?
  159. # [12:18] <hsivonen> annevk: it sucks when you can't use common attributes but have to rebuild them on a per-element basis without the one you need to require and so that you can make the one required
  160. # [12:18] <hsivonen> annevk: this is why the grammar for bdo is ugly
  161. # [12:19] <annevk> oh, you can't override global stuff on a per element basis?
  162. # [12:19] <annevk> annoying
  163. # [12:19] <hsivonen> annevk: very
  164. # [12:20] <annevk> yeah, that actually sucks a lot given the amount of attributes we have now
  165. # [12:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: would it help you if the attribute was called name instead of id? :)
  166. # [12:20] <annevk> :p
  167. # [12:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes :-)
  168. # [12:20] <zcorpan> well then :)
  169. # [12:20] <annevk> terrible
  170. # [12:21] <hsivonen> annevk: at least this is my recollection. there's a small chance that I am misremembering something or that my mind is clouded by the DTD compat extension
  171. # [12:27] <hsivonen> annevk: my recollection was correct.
  172. # [12:27] <hsivonen> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fabout.validator.nu%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fduplicate-attr.rnc
  173. # [12:28] <hsivonen> that is, schemas that can derive duplicate attributes are forbidden.
  174. # [12:28] <hsivonen> this sucks pretty badly compared to embracing grammar ambiguity
  175. # [12:29] <annevk> you should raise this (and other issues with RNG) on some list so it can be improved
  176. # [12:30] <hsivonen> I suppose
  177. # [12:31] <annevk> i bet some geeks will find it interesting and fix it :)
  178. # [12:32] <hsivonen> actually, now that James Clark has moved on from hacking on Jing and RNG is an ISO standard, I'm pretty pessimistic when it comes to improving RNG
  179. # [12:38] <annevk> whoa, Elliotte Harold sort of turned around it seems :)
  180. # [12:38] <hsivonen> eww. the feedback mechanism for RNG is overlawyered
  181. # [12:38] <annevk> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/
  182. # [12:40] <hsivonen> It totally sucks that these days the patent system is so sick that people don't want to hear from you until you jump through the hoops of a patent covenant
  183. # [12:41] <hsivonen> too much legal stuff to read for today if I wanted to use the official channel for saying something
  184. # [12:42] <hsivonen> I'm going to ping an unofficial channel first to see if there's a reason why the suggestion wouldn't work anyway
  185. # [12:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, the same rationale that was used for allowing xmlns on root and /> could be used for allowing old-style meta charset syntax
  186. # [13:01] <hsivonen> whoa. Elliotte Harold (or a copy editor) takes the risk of taking a stand on what RSS abbreviates :-)
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  190. # [13:35] <zcorpan> http://niquimerret.com/?p=94
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  192. # [13:40] <zcorpan> what's the use case for HTMLMapElement.images?
  193. # [13:41] <annevk> good question
  194. # [13:41] <annevk> I had one
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  201. # [15:05] <zcorpan> "Each remaining area element in areas represents a hyperlink. Those hyperlinks should all be made available to the user in a manner associated with the text of the img or input element." -- why is this not a MUST?
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  204. # [15:32] <zcorpan> wonder if we should support showing the <area> links when <object> is used and images are disabled
  205. # [15:33] <met_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382267#c15
  206. # [15:36] <zcorpan> <video> doesn't have fallback content in html5-aware UAs
  207. # [15:36] <zcorpan> alternative video formats are covered with <source>
  208. # [15:36] <annevk> the videostream itself needs to be accessible
  209. # [15:37] <zcorpan> yeah
  210. # [15:37] <zcorpan> non-video alternatives would have to be presented alongside the video
  211. # [15:37] <zcorpan> ("alternatives")
  212. # [15:41] <annevk> can someone tell me what the effect of <input type=image usemap> is?
  213. # [15:42] * annevk goes to test it
  214. # [15:43] <annevk> it seems harmful
  215. # [15:43] <zcorpan> same as <img usemap> afaict (as long as it is actually associated with a map)
  216. # [15:44] <annevk> yeah, which makes no sense at all for a control
  217. # [15:44] <zcorpan> agreed
  218. # [15:44] <annevk> maybe to make particular areas unclickable?
  219. # [15:46] <annevk> i think i rather make <input> less bloated than catering for that silly usecase
  220. # [15:46] <zcorpan> ah, clicking outside an area will submit the form as normal
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  222. # [16:11] <annevk> "I agree with Anne for once!"
  223. # [16:11] * annevk ponders
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  256. # [21:13] <Wolfman2000> I know that HTML 5 is only in a working draft right now, but does anyone know which browsers already support it?
  257. # [21:14] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
  258. # [21:15] <annevk> maybe the WHATWG FAQ should point to that...
  259. # [21:15] <Wolfman2000> In other words, not a lot.
  260. # [21:18] <annevk> depending on how you look at it, sure
  261. # [21:19] <annevk> (that page doesn't list all the features from HTML4 that are also part of HTML5 it seems which are obviously implemented too)
  262. # [21:19] <Wolfman2000> The only tag that I see as implemented on that page is <canvas>
  263. # [21:25] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  264. # [21:26] <Philip`> If you're just counting tags, there's <event-source> too
  265. # [21:26] <Philip`> (and <video> if you count experimental implementations)
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  295. # [22:46] <Hixie> hmm
  296. # [22:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you notice the accessibility comment on the Mozilla <video> bug? the spec is silent on captions
  297. # [22:53] <Hixie> uri?
  298. # [22:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382267#c15
  299. # [22:54] * Hixie grumbles about people who think of accessibility as a separate concern from feature design
  300. # [22:54] <Hixie> it's like people who bolt on security afterwards
  301. # [22:54] <hsivonen> what browsers do people use for browsing the spec when they complain about locking? WFM in Firefox on OS X and in Opera on Maemo
  302. # [22:54] <Hixie> or who think "performance" is a separate module
  303. # [22:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd expect Ogg <video> to use in-Ogg Writ captions.
  304. # [22:55] <Hixie> yeah, same with any video stream
  305. # [22:55] <Hixie> it's not an all-or-nothing deal
  306. # [22:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: but the spec is silent on how to enable/disable captions of pick a language in case of multiple subtitles, etc.
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  308. # [23:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: isn't that a UA issue?
  309. # [23:01] <Hixie> if we rely on the page providing that, i predict many "inaccessible" pages
  310. # [23:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: good point.
  311. # [23:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: perhaps the spec should say this
  312. # [23:02] <Hixie> it will, in due course
  313. # [23:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.153)
  314. # [23:09] <Hixie> can anyone work out what chris meant in today's "RE: [whatwg] Where did the "rev" attribute go?"
  315. # [23:10] * annevk skipped those e-mails
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  317. # [23:11] <annevk> I guess he means that a hyphen "means" a space, but I'm not sure what the point is
  318. # [23:11] <Hixie> wow, usemap on <input type=image> is used
  319. # [23:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks like a case of getting semantics from reading the class name in English
  320. # [23:12] <annevk> Hixie, really? What's used for Internet Explorer?
  321. # [23:12] <hsivonen> someone really should write an article that explains why that is a fallacy
  322. # [23:12] <Hixie> i guess it just doesn't do anything in IE
  323. # [23:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: i didn't understand the e-mail at all
  324. # [23:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: I had a flashback of http://tantek.com/log/2002/08.html#L20020821t2114 again
  325. # [23:16] <Hixie> annevk: http://shop.divebooty.com/78.html is one example
  326. # [23:17] <annevk> Hixie, there is nothing matching "searchmap" (the usemap value) in that page though
  327. # [23:17] <tantek> hsivonen - heh
  328. # [23:18] <Hixie> annevk: it's right at the top
  329. # [23:20] <annevk> hmm, doesn't work in Opera if you click with a mouse, if you tab to it and hit enter it does...
  330. # [23:20] <annevk> removing the <map> makes the page work better in Opera...
  331. # [23:20] <Hixie> i love my new imap-fu
  332. # [23:21] <Hixie> annevk: i'm gonna get a more complete list of pages that actually have differences between IE and other browsers
  333. # [23:21] <annevk> this has differences
  334. # [23:21] <annevk> it works less good in Opera and Firefox
  335. # [23:21] <Hixie> yeah, but others in the list i got don't
  336. # [23:21] <Hixie> (don't have differences, i mean)
  337. # [23:22] <Hixie> so i need to get a better sample list
  338. # [23:22] <annevk> ok
  339. # [23:22] <Hixie> e.g. some have usemap="" pointing to non-existent maps
  340. # [23:22] <annevk> why does that not surprise me :)
  341. # [23:22] <Hixie> what surprises me is that some have usemap=""s pointing to actual maps! :-)
  342. # [23:28] <annevk> seems IE might be Unicode case-insensitive for ID values (related to <map> anyway, and at least for the character ë)
  343. # [23:28] <Hixie> ew
  344. # [23:29] <annevk> (same for name=)
  345. # [23:30] <Hixie> noted
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  347. # [23:33] <annevk> seems the developerworks article initiated a few new blogposts
  348. # [23:36] <Hixie> hey anne what's the story with your site?
  349. # [23:36] <Hixie> did it change url?
  350. # [23:42] <annevk> not really
  351. # [23:42] <annevk> oh, you mean this XML5 thing?
  352. # [23:42] <Hixie> http://annevankesteren.nl/ hasn't responded for me for some time
  353. # [23:42] <annevk> oh ok
  354. # [23:43] <annevk> dunno, I've yet to switch it to dreamhost, which might not be better, but at least I get ssh access
  355. # [23:43] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  356. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh so it's just down?
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  363. # [23:48] <Philip`> Is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#audio0 likely to become more specific about numbers of channels and sample rates and bits per sample, or is it expected that people can support any crazy wave file?
  364. # [23:48] <Hixie> probably neither
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  367. # [23:49] <Hixie> though once we have more implementation experience it might describe the common supported subset
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  369. # [23:50] <Hixie> feel free to mail suggestions to the list for what it should require, though
  370. # [23:50] <Hixie> (the minimum supported subset)
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  373. # Session Close: Thu Aug 09 00:00:00 2007

The end :)