/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  20. # [02:09] <Hixie> any opera people here?
  21. # [02:11] <karlUshi> which nationality?
  22. # [02:11] <karlUshi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Opera_singers_by_nationality
  23. # [02:12] <Hixie> ...
  24. # [02:12] <Hixie> any opera software employees here?
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  26. # [02:20] <Dashiva> Hixie: Temporarily, at least
  27. # [02:21] <Hixie> hey
  28. # [02:22] <Hixie> do you know what the offical Opera opinion is of moving postMessage from Document to Window?
  29. # [02:22] <Hixie> is it something you guys can do without breaking too much content? would you have to support both for a while? is that ok?
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  31. # [02:25] <Dashiva> Let's see...
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  34. # [02:26] <Dashiva> Last I heard it was "window might be nicer, but not breaking the API is probably better"
  35. # [02:28] <Dashiva> You'll have to poke anne (I think) for anything official
  36. # [02:28] <Hixie> ok
  37. # [02:28] <Hixie> thanks
  38. # [02:28] <Hixie> i think i'm gonna break the API, in case you can poke people internally about this to make them aware of it
  39. # [02:30] <Dashiva> I'll see what I can do. Not sure what the official Opera policy on shooting messengers is ;)
  40. # [02:30] <Hixie> :-)
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  53. # [03:09] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE html> a<ruby> b <rt>rt1</rt> <rt>rt2</rt> </ruby>c
  54. # [03:09] <Hixie> and
  55. # [03:09] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE html> a<ruby> b <rt>rt1</rt><rt>rt2</rt> </ruby>c
  56. # [03:09] <Hixie> render very differently in IE
  57. # [03:09] <Hixie> grr
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  60. # [03:19] <karlUshi> judt because of the space?
  61. # [03:20] <karlUshi> I think it would be a good opportunity to include Richard Ishida in the discussion. He's on the list.
  62. # [03:22] <Hixie> it's not really a ruby problem, ironically
  63. # [03:22] <Hixie> it's an IE parsing problem
  64. # [03:23] <Hixie> knowledge of ironically ruby doesn't really help with speccing what to do with parsing ruby :-(
  65. # [03:23] <Hixie> er
  66. # [03:23] <Hixie> knowledge of ruby ironically doesn't really help, even
  67. # [03:26] <Hixie> i wonder if we should make <ruby> a formatting element
  68. # [03:27] <Hixie> it's the only way i can see to handle <ruby>a<rt>b<p>c</ruby>d
  69. # [03:27] <Hixie> in a way that resembles IE
  70. # [03:27] <Hixie> though maybe the solution is to not resemble IE
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  76. # [03:52] <Lachy> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/?ca=dgr-lnxw01NewHTML
  77. # [03:52] <Lachy> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/08/1558225
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  84. # [04:22] <karlUshi> first comment "And here I was thinking that solved all of my web design problems. Now I might have to learn a second type of tag!"
  85. # [04:22] <karlUshi> :)
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  92. # [04:37] <deltab> that comment as intended: "And here I was thinking that <pre> solved all of my web design problems. Now I might have to learn a second type of tag!"
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  120. # [07:37] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/287 comes from the new study
  121. # [07:37] <Hixie> (about usemap)
  122. # [07:39] <Hixie> i think we can throw it out safely
  123. # [07:40] <Hixie> but if someone wants to look at how those pages use usemap="" on <input> to see if any of them use it in a way that matters, that'd be great
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  131. # [09:19] <Lachy> Hixie, the first 6 results from that study don't use the map for anything useful at all. I don't expect to find any that do if I keep looking
  132. # [09:28] <Hixie> all the pages have an <input> with type=image with a usemap="" that points to a <map> with a name or ID that matches
  133. # [09:28] <Hixie> i didn't check if the <map> had <area> elements
  134. # [09:29] <Hixie> lachy: in what way were they useless?
  135. # [09:30] <Hixie> hm, gotta go (i'm amused that people randomly twitter single words on whatwg.org btw)
  136. # [09:30] <Lachy> some had no <area> elements, some had them without href attributes and others had <area ... href=""> or <area ... href="#">
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  140. # [09:47] <annevk> Hixie, we don't want to break the API I think
  141. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, there was this bug report you commented on relevant to that
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  159. # [12:16] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/image-maps/ 003..004 confirms that id/name with usemap is unicode case insensitive
  160. # [12:17] <zcorpan> in all 4 browsers
  161. # [12:17] <zcorpan> (except in xhtml in fx and saf, where it is case sensitive)
  162. # [12:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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  200. # [18:32] <zcorpan> Lachy: is http://lachy.id.au/dev/presentation/developing-with-html5/ announced anywhere? can it be added to the wiki?
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  202. # [19:07] <annevk> http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/comm47.asp is another page which is worse in browsers that support <input usemap>
  203. # [19:08] <Hixie> hmm
  204. # [19:09] <Hixie> guess we'll remove it
  205. # [19:09] <annevk> http://www.soe.uwm.edu/pages/welcome/Certification_and_Degrees too
  206. # [19:09] <annevk> (if you click advanced search you go to the normal search page except that it doesn't submit any data you typed in)
  207. # [19:10] <annevk> although I think that site actually had the intention of making it useful
  208. # [19:11] <annevk> http://www.universaldizayn.com/irtibat.php login breaks in Opera and Firefox
  209. # [19:12] <Hixie> i'm gonna do the study again but only get pages that have <map>s with <area>s
  210. # [19:12] <Hixie> which themselves have both coords="" and href="" and their href="" isn't "" or "#"
  211. # [19:12] <annevk> these all had <area>
  212. # [19:12] <annevk> oh
  213. # [19:12] <Hixie> anything else i should filter out?
  214. # [19:13] <annevk> I just looked at those three so far
  215. # [19:13] <annevk> I already filed a bug for removal...
  216. # [19:13] <Hixie> yeah i'm pretty sure we want to remove it
  217. # [19:13] <Hixie> i just want to make sure
  218. # [19:14] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-7332d28e89d4c356)
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  221. # [19:24] <annevk> http://www.ljagri.gov.cn/nykj_syjs.asp also has the # problem
  222. # [19:24] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-a3dc64946a4f90a0) ("Fades out again…")
  223. # [19:25] <Hixie> yeah that one wouldn't be caught in the new survey i just launched
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  227. # [19:28] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Ciframe%20src%3Dhttp%3A//www.opera.com/%3E%3C/iframe%3E%0Axx%3Cscript%3E%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22iframe%22%29%5B0%5D.contentDocument.location%20%3D%20%22http%3A//google.com%22%20%3C/script%3E
  228. # [19:28] <annevk> is one reason why postMessage might just as well stay on Document
  229. # [19:28] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-76dd5e1c708c5b07)
  230. # [19:28] <annevk> oh, interesting, it only seems to work in Firefox
  231. # [19:28] * annevk ponders
  232. # [19:29] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-181a32ea21bad7db)
  233. # [19:29] <Hixie> yeah document shouldn't be accessible cross-origin
  234. # [19:29] <annevk> I thought they were the ones having issues with this document being accessible?
  235. # [19:29] <annevk> We'd like to keep postMessage() as is, if possible...
  236. # [19:29] <Hixie> no they were the ones who said that they had too many security problems
  237. # [19:29] <Hixie> oh?
  238. # [19:29] <Hixie> why?
  239. # [19:30] <annevk> see pm with link to internal bug report
  240. # [19:30] <annevk> basically, jl doesn't really see a good reason to break the API
  241. # [19:31] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  242. # [19:33] <annevk> btw, would be nice if Live DOM Viewer had something like $(id) and $$(tagname) in the global scope or something similarly named
  243. # [19:42] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  244. # [19:47] * maikmerten is now known as maik|bath
  245. # [19:49] <annevk> oops, made a mistake
  246. # [19:49] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ciframe%20src%3Dhttp%3A//www.opera.com/%3E%3C/iframe%3E%3Cscript%3Eonload%3Dfunction%28%29%7Bdocument.getElementsByTagName%28%22iframe%22%29%5B0%5D.contentDocument.location%20%3D%20%22http%3A//google.com/%22%7D%3C/script%3E%20
  247. # [19:49] <annevk> does make the redirect in Opera
  248. # [19:50] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.181)
  249. # [19:51] <annevk> lol, that variant throws an exception in Firefox
  250. # [19:52] <zcorpan> ie7 as well (when you change contentDocument to contentWindow.document)
  251. # [19:54] <Lachy> zcorpan: sure, you can add it to the wiki. I will be blogging about it shortly too
  252. # [19:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-168-4-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]")
  253. # [19:55] * moeffju[afk] is now known as moeffju
  254. # [19:56] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-168-4-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  255. # [20:04] * Hixie slowly builds the most elaborate cross-domain attempt he has ever made
  256. # [20:05] <zcorpan> Lachy: done
  257. # [20:11] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?<!DOCTYPE html><body onload%3D"setTimeout(test1%2C 100)%3B setTimeout(test2%2C 200)%3B">...<iframe src%3D"http%3A//labs.google.com"></iframe><script>function test1() {w('contentDocument%3A')%3Bvar y %3D document.getElementsByTagName('iframe')[0]%3Bw(y)%3Bw(y.contentDocument)%3Bw(y.contentDocument.write)%3By.contentDocument.write('test')%3B}</script><script>function test2() {w('contentWindow%3A')%3Bvar x %3D do
  258. # [20:11] <Hixie> (did that truncate?)
  259. # [20:11] <Hixie> anyway my conclusion is that only Opera lets you iterate over the Document, and only Firefox lets you access document.write()
  260. # [20:14] <Hixie> actually i can't even call document.write() in firefox
  261. # [20:16] <Hixie> wait that wasn't the right test
  262. # [20:18] <Hixie> annevk: i commented on the bug
  263. # [20:18] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/288 is my "testcase"
  264. # [20:18] * maik|bath is now known as maikmerten
  265. # [20:29] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  266. # [20:33] <Hixie> i can't work out how to make <ruby> work
  267. # [20:33] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  268. # [20:34] <Hixie> specifically, the parsing of <ruby> in IE is not compatible with a non-tree DOM
  269. # [20:34] <Hixie> i wonder how much ruby is out there
  270. # [20:35] <Hixie> hm, not much
  271. # [20:35] <Hixie> it's not in the top 200
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  283. # [21:17] <Hixie> woot, my first official google blog post - http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2007/08/optimisation-data-for-html5-parser.html
  284. # [21:17] <Hixie> (also on code.google.com)
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  293. # [22:24] * Hixie launches a study of <ruby> parsing
  294. # [22:25] <Hixie> i don't understand how people wrote specs before
  295. # [22:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you taken a look at the ODF spec?
  296. # [22:26] <Hixie> no
  297. # [22:26] <Hixie> should i?
  298. # [22:26] <hsivonen> well, it certainly is very different from HTML 5.
  299. # [22:26] <Hixie> heh
  300. # [22:27] * Hixie starts looking at adding URIs and titles to pushState()
  301. # [22:27] <hsivonen> it is basically a commentary on the schema
  302. # [22:27] <Hixie> eh, that's a pretty common way of writing specs
  303. # [22:27] <Hixie> HTML4 is pretty much that
  304. # [22:28] <hsivonen> not on that level
  305. # [22:28] <Hixie> scary
  306. # [22:29] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.181)
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  310. # [22:30] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-a6f452859bf754b6)
  311. # [22:30] <hsivonen> anyway, as far as spec writing goes, this processing model thing as well as error handling seem to be novel :-/
  312. # [22:31] <hsivonen> OOXML has detail, but more like a DoS of detail. I haven't figured out yet, if it is useful and sufficient detail
  313. # [22:31] <Hixie> but how do you write a "version 2" without being able to study the existing content and examine the cowpaths?
  314. # [22:33] <hsivonen> you take the next version of MS Office and figure out what new data structures there are? :-)
  315. # [22:33] <Hixie> on another note, i have this small slice of the web that i use for testing my scripts before i run them on the real data, and every time i do a test run over that data my parser skips over these same pages, which it outputs the url of to the console
  316. # [22:33] <Hixie> one of them is http://www.online-dating-facts.net/
  317. # [22:34] <Hixie> which has so many copies of "<b>Warning</b>: feof(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in <b>/home/online/public_html/inc/articles.inc</b> on line <b>4</b><br />" that my script runs out of bits to store elements in
  318. # [22:35] <Hixie> it may in fact be an infinite page, i can't quite tell
  319. # [22:35] <Hixie> i don't think i've ever reached the end of it
  320. # [22:35] <Hixie> (my test data file has a truncated copy of it)
  321. # [22:37] <Hixie> anyone have an opinion on whether pushState() should always require a URI or whether we should continue to allow state to be included without a URI?
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  325. # [22:53] <KevinMarks> Afternoon
  326. # [22:54] <KevinMarks> having a bit fo trouble following the rel="bookmark" stuff
  327. # [22:54] <KevinMarks> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#link-type2
  328. # [22:54] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  329. # [22:55] <Hixie> what don't you follow?
  330. # [22:58] <KevinMarks> the implications of sections - if there are no <article> elements, the rel="bookmark" only applies to a subset fo the document?
  331. # [22:59] <KevinMarks> or can the bookmark link apply to the whole page?
  332. # [23:00] <KevinMarks> concrete example, go to google maps, and do a search. The 'link to this page' url has rel="bookmark" on it, which is intended to mean 'use this for the page permalink, not the top url as the content changed"
  333. # [23:00] <Hixie> it applies to the nearest <article>, or if there are no such ancestors, to the nearest <body>, <section>, <nav>, <blockquote>, or <aside> element
  334. # [23:01] <Hixie> whichever comes first
  335. # [23:03] <KevinMarks> that 'section' discovery is tricky
  336. # [23:03] <Hixie> you mean working out which element is a section?
  337. # [23:04] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  338. # [23:05] <KevinMarks> what seems 'natural' to me is to flood-fill outwards from each rel="bookmark" link until you hit another's boundary
  339. # [23:06] <KevinMarks> is the intent of that code to not 'leak' out from the subsections to the filler?
  340. # [23:07] <Hixie> i don't recall what the thinking was
  341. # [23:07] <Hixie> i think it was to make it possible to mark blog posts primarily
  342. # [23:07] <KevinMarks> right
  343. # [23:07] <Hixie> and then when you're not doing a post, to mark sections and stuff
  344. # [23:07] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  345. # [23:08] <Hixie> but maybe we should drop that altogether
  346. # [23:08] <Hixie> and make it the nearest <article> or <body>
  347. # [23:08] <KevinMarks> no, broadly it makes sense
  348. # [23:08] <Hixie> i'm not sure i really see the point of permalinking to a section really
  349. # [23:08] <Hixie> i recommend sending feedback to the list (whatwg@whatwg.org) or me (ian@hixie.ch) so i look at it more closely, if you want it changed at all
  350. # [23:08] <KevinMarks> it is a huge usecase in blogs
  351. # [23:09] <Hixie> certainly <article> should definitely scope permalinks
  352. # [23:09] <Hixie> i'm talking mainly about <section> et al
  353. # [23:09] <KevinMarks> it's the independence of the sction parsing and the bookmark linking that confuses me a bit
  354. # [23:09] <Hixie> i don't see a real use case to scope to them
  355. # [23:09] <Hixie> i don't understand what you mean by "section parsing"
  356. # [23:10] <KevinMarks> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#outlines
  357. # [23:10] <Hixie> oh outlining
  358. # [23:11] <KevinMarks> wondering if anyone has implemented that yet - is that part of Sam's html5lib?
  359. # [23:11] <Hixie> i don't know of any implementation work short of the small script in the spec itself
  360. # [23:12] <KevinMarks> OK, thanks
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  367. # Session Close: Fri Aug 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)