/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 11 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:21] <gsnedders> how many times have I defended IE from people trying to make MS look bad?
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  8. # [00:22] <othermaciej> is that a trick qustion?
  9. # [00:22] <gsnedders> othermaciej: a rhetorical one
  10. # [00:22] <gsnedders> complaining filter goes against the option in CSS2.1 of using hyphens or underscore this time, despite it predating CSS2.1
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  12. # [00:23] <othermaciej> I think the CSS vendor prefix convention also predates CSS 2.1
  13. # [00:23] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I just looked it up. Couldn't find it in CSS2
  14. # [00:23] <othermaciej> although I don't know if it predates the IE filter property
  15. # [00:24] <gsnedders> IE filter was introduced in IE4
  16. # [00:24] <gsnedders> (which also predates CSS2)
  17. # [00:24] <othermaciej> the worse thing about filter is that SVG introduced a filter CSS property with an incompatible syntax
  18. # [00:25] <othermaciej> but I blame SVG for that, not Microsoft
  19. # [00:27] <gsnedders> it's often on a forum which I go to less and less, as I've been called an idiot so many times for believing that XHTML isn't the future, and that MS isn't totally shit
  20. # [00:27] <othermaciej> well, IE is really not that great in terms of standards complliance and has not advanced much in a long time
  21. # [00:28] <othermaciej> so I'm not sure all criticism of MS is off-base
  22. # [00:29] <gsnedders> a lot of it is
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> there are a lot of people who criticise IE unfairly and incorrectly
  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> but there's a lot of criticism that IE could get fairly and accurately that it doesn't
  25. # [00:32] <Hixie> it's possible the two balance out :-)
  26. # [00:32] <gsnedders> also a lot who criticise the devs, cwilso especially
  27. # [00:32] <Hixie> chris is a fine man
  28. # [00:32] <Hixie> not the most active of chairmen, but that's another story
  29. # [00:33] <Hixie> someone give me a random number
  30. # [00:33] <gsnedders> 42
  31. # [00:33] <Hixie> dom-events it is
  32. # [00:33] <gsnedders> (not really random, but hey)
  33. # [00:34] <gsnedders> in the case of some people in the WG they'll complain if he isn't active as chair, and if he is, they'll complain he isn't improving Trident
  34. # [00:34] <Hixie> he could be more active than he is without really eating into his Trident productivity much
  35. # [00:34] <gsnedders> I know, but they'll find reasons to complain at him someway or another
  36. # [00:35] <gsnedders> I remember one reaction I got around a year ago when I told someone Tantek was lead of IE5/Mac. Then my saying how old IE5/Mac was. They had assumed it was recent, and it was terrible because it was MS.
  37. # [00:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: why did you want a random number, though?
  38. # [00:37] <Hixie> i'm picking things to work on in the spec
  39. # [00:37] <gsnedders> then how do numbers map to things in the spec?
  40. # [00:37] <Hixie> 42 was the 42nd folder on my IMAP server
  41. # [00:37] <gsnedders> ah.
  42. # [00:37] <Hixie> INBOX.input-for-whatwg-dom-events
  43. # [00:38] <hendry> :)
  44. # [00:38] <Hixie> ok
  45. # [00:38] <Hixie> <img alt>
  46. # [00:38] <Hixie> it seems there are three kinds of images
  47. # [00:38] <gsnedders> I wonder if Douglas Adams' ever knew what the consequences of trying to think of what a normal number would be
  48. # [00:38] <Hixie> images that are really just fancy alternatives to actual text
  49. # [00:39] <Hixie> images that are purely decorative
  50. # [00:39] <Hixie> and images that are intrinsic to the content but have no textual alternative
  51. # [00:40] * hendry would agree with that
  52. # [00:40] <gsnedders> what about graphs?
  53. # [00:40] <hendry> gsnedders: vector graphics?
  54. # [00:40] <gsnedders> they have vital to the content, but can have a textual alternative
  55. # [00:40] <gsnedders> hendry: no, just images that contain graphs
  56. # [00:40] <gsnedders> anyhow, I must go sleep
  57. # [00:40] <Hixie> examples being a simple diagram or graph that can be described textually, a snapshot from a movie in a movie review or a diagram or graph that just repeats what the prose says, and a photo on flickr respectively
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  66. # [01:21] <Hixie> any
  67. # [01:21] <Hixie> er
  68. # [01:21] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-img is the starting point for my <img>/alt="" redesign
  69. # [01:21] <Hixie> work in progress
  70. # [01:43] <jruderman> interesting, the alt attribute is no longer required and having no alt now has a specific meaning
  71. # [01:45] <jruderman> "The download of the image must delay the load event." might put one variant of the intranet-port-scanning attack into spec, but i'm not sure if you want to be trying to prevent that attack
  72. # [01:45] <jruderman> speaking of specs and security
  73. # [01:46] <jruderman> are you interested in possible changes to the same-origin policy?
  74. # [01:46] <jruderman> some people think IP addresses should become part of origin (along with hostname, protocol, and port)
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  76. # [01:48] <h3h> my guess is that would break sites (mostly intranet) and Microsoft would be reluctant at best
  77. # [01:48] <h3h> but that's just a guess
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  79. # [01:50] <jruderman> won't TCPConnection allow malicious web pages to get around the "servers should check the Host header" solution to DNS rebinding attacks?
  80. # [01:50] <othermaciej> the TCPConnection from HTML5?
  81. # [01:51] <othermaciej> I think it would be hard to use it to connect to an http server
  82. # [01:51] <Hixie> jruderman: (i'm not really here but if you could mail me your feedback ian@hixie.ch -- or to one of the lists -- that'd be great)
  83. # [01:51] <jruderman> oh, it's not allowed to connect to port 80? i guess that helps a little
  84. # [01:51] <othermaciej> but yes, the protocol itself would itself be vulnerable to DNS rebinding
  85. # [01:51] <othermaciej> jruderman: no, it uses a wacky custom protocol and requires a particular handshake
  86. # [01:52] <othermaciej> jruderman: you're not supposed to be able to actually use it to connect to any existing network service
  87. # [01:52] <jruderman> oh, neat
  88. # [01:52] <othermaciej> although the way it enforces this is pretty weak
  89. # [01:52] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  90. # [01:52] <othermaciej> the protocol itself could be subject to DNS rebinding, like I said
  91. # [01:54] <jruderman> it looks like it tries not to be, by making both sides send the hostname(?)
  92. # [01:56] <Hixie> that's the source domain, but yes, that's intended to mitigate the problem partly
  93. # [01:56] <Hixie> the idea of having the IP in the origin might work
  94. # [01:56] <Hixie> though it would cause all kinds of issues in multi-homed sites like, say, google
  95. # [01:58] <jruderman> why are ports below 1024 and ports >= 1024 treated differently?
  96. # [01:58] <Hixie> i recommend starting a thread on whatwg@whatwg.org about the origin idea
  97. # [01:58] * Hixie looks at the spec
  98. # [01:59] <Hixie> oh it's to try and avoid people abusing services by connecting to services and faking the protocol
  99. # [01:59] <Hixie> in case the handshake isn't good enough
  100. # [01:59] <Hixie> to stop that
  101. # [02:00] <jruderman> i think it would be good to specify wraparound behavior for port numbers (or lack of wraparound behavior), since many apps have wraparound behavior without intending to have it
  102. # [02:00] <Hixie> what is "wraparound behaviour"?
  103. # [02:00] <jruderman> port 65616 = port 80
  104. # [02:00] <jruderman> wouldn't want someone to be able to get around the "no port 80 connections" rule that way
  105. # [02:01] <Hixie> the spec already defines that
  106. # [02:01] <Hixie> it says to raise an exception
  107. # [02:02] <jruderman> oh, i read the whole "the port argument is neither equal to 80, nor equal to 443, nor greater than or equal to 1024 and less than or equal to 65535," sentence backwards
  108. # [02:03] <jruderman> it *only* allows connections on port 80, 443, and 1024..65535?
  109. # [02:03] <jruderman> why allow ports 80 and 443? the TCPConnection protocol isn't http or https...
  110. # [02:04] <Hixie> to tunnel out of fascist regimes
  111. # [02:04] <Hixie> basically
  112. # [02:04] <jruderman> hehe, ok
  113. # [02:04] <Hixie> (many sites proxy port 80, and block everything else, so the only way out is 443)
  114. # [02:05] <Hixie> note that othermaciej and others have quite low opinions of this section
  115. # [02:05] <jruderman> ok
  116. # [02:05] <Hixie> personally i'm not sure what to replace it with if we remove it -- the usual suggestion (embedding the whole http stack into this) is not one i feel is plausible
  117. # [02:06] <Hixie> but i guess i need to draw up the requirements/problem space to see what else could address it (and to show if/why http doesn't handle it)
  118. # [02:06] <Hixie> i think notwithstanding the abuse of ports 80 and 443, and not withstanding the fact that it's Yet Another custom protocol, it actually is pretty neat
  119. # [02:07] <Hixie> but those two things are the main things people have against it, and i don't have good answers to those concerns
  120. # [02:10] <Hixie> i've added notes about the two security attacks you mentioned -- rebinding and ip in origin, and port scanning through load events -- to the spec and will look at them in due course.
  121. # [02:11] <Hixie> now i'm really going offline -- bbl. feel free to e-mail the list on things you see, especially security issues.
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  163. # [14:35] <Philip`> HTML5 parsing is incompatible with IE and Opera on http://www.gerv.net/security/content-restrictions/ - it doesn't think half the page is blue
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  165. # [14:39] <Dashiva> Philip`: A little bit more detailed?
  166. # [14:41] <Dashiva> Do you mean the unclosed span causing long runs of blue text?
  167. # [14:41] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20HTML%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cspan%20style%3D%22color%3Ablue%22%3EA%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3EB is about what that page does
  168. # [14:41] <Philip`> Yes
  169. # [14:44] <Philip`> Firefox/Safari/HTML5 put the B outside the span, Opera/IE put it inside
  170. # [14:44] <Dashiva> I'm more concerned about P being a descendant of another P
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  180. # [15:37] <hendry> does anything use <link rel='archives' title='July 2007' type html? googlebot?
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  191. # [17:06] <zcorpan> anyone who has written an html parser: is it faster to parse quoted attributes or unquoted attributes, or indifferent?
  192. # [17:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
  193. # [17:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ^
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  195. # [17:38] <mpt> hendry, iCab? :-)
  196. # [17:48] <Philip`> zcorpan: Quoted should be theoretically a tiny bit faster for long attribute values, since you don't need to keep checking for whitespace, but maybe a tiny bit slower for short values since the quotes mean there are more characters to process, but I think that's all trivial and irrelevant compared to all the other costs (of getting input characters in the first place, of constructing attribute value strings, etc)
  197. # [17:53] <Philip`> The extra 2 bytes for a quoted attribute, if you're downloading a web page at 100KB/sec, would take about 20 microseconds, which is about 40,000 CPU cycles, so a few extra comparison instructions won't be at all significant
  198. # [17:53] <Philip`> ((unless you're writing in Python or something where a comparison might be closer to being that expensive))
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  209. # [19:04] <zcorpan> Philip`: what's the difference between checking for whitespace and checking for the closing quote character? whitespace can be several different characters?
  210. # [19:06] <Philip`> It's just a few more values to check for - unquoted needs to detect 9/10/11/12/32/38/62/EOF, double-quoted only needs to look for 34/38/EOF, so you'd usually need a few more comparisons in the unquoted case
  211. # [19:07] <zcorpan> yeah, ok
  212. # [19:10] <Philip`> I don't think it's an especially compelling reason to use HTML instead of XHTML :-)
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  216. # [19:24] <zcorpan> Philip`: oh, i was just surprised that mskinner's implementation experience suggested that parsing quoted attributes would be "MUST faster" than unquoted
  217. # [19:24] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=93#395
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  226. # [19:52] * annevk looks at <img> redesign
  227. # [19:53] * annevk notes that <audio> prolly needs a note about its constructor too
  228. # [19:56] * annevk reads molly's rant
  229. # [19:56] * annevk notes that #whatwg is the new twitter
  230. # [19:58] * annevk reads the comments about people being frustrated by the WHATWG now it's suddenly in the W3C
  231. # [19:59] * annevk thinks the comments at http://www.molly.com/2007/08/11/dear-w3c-dear-wasp/ are quite hilarious given what has been said so far about headers= etc. on the public-html list
  232. # [20:00] * tantek reads about annevk reading molly's rant and goes to read molly's rant.
  233. # [20:00] * takkaria wonders what all the fuss is about
  234. # [20:01] <tantek> takkaria, a disconnect between those that hold meetings, their topics/agendas, and those that work in the field day-to-day, their real-world challenges and desired solutions.
  235. # [20:04] <takkaria> heh
  236. # [20:05] <takkaria> since when has WHATWG been a semi-secret society?
  237. # [20:07] <tantek> takkaria, it is a general trolling technique
  238. # [20:09] <tantek> often used by bureaucracy trolls: http://tantek.pbwiki.com/TrollTaxonomy#Bureaucraytroll
  239. # [20:10] <takkaria> semi-secret in the sense of "public". :)
  240. # [20:10] <takkaria> I wonder when MS will send feedback on the current spec
  241. # [20:13] <takkaria> nice taxomony, there
  242. # [20:20] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-41-76.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  243. # [20:27] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  244. # [20:31] <Philip`> zcorpan: Maybe quoted vs unquoted matters more if you're writing an actual SGML-like HTML4 parser, since that's much more particular than HTML5 about what characters are allowed in unquoted values
  245. # [20:32] <zcorpan> Philip`: so what would you do when you hit a character that is not allowed?
  246. # [20:34] * Joins: Yudai_ (n=Yudai@pae2f7e.tokyte00.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  247. # [20:34] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@pae3703.tokyte00.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  248. # [20:35] <Philip`> Given what the W3C validator does, you sometimes start reading a new attribute name that begins with the non-allowed character
  249. # [20:35] <Philip`> (at least for <div class=foo'bar></div> - but it seems different for <div class=foo#bar></div> since that just complains about an invalid character inside the value)
  250. # [20:36] <zcorpan> crazy
  251. # [20:36] * zcorpan assumes that sgml doesn't define what to do
  252. # [20:36] <hasather_> zcorpan: SGML has no defined error handling
  253. # [20:37] <zcorpan> hasather_: it has some
  254. # [20:37] <hasather_> like?
  255. # [20:37] <zcorpan> hasather_: e.g., </foo in a cdata element closes the element but is an error if the end tag doesn't match the start tag
  256. # [20:38] <zcorpan> not sure if there are others
  257. # [20:53] <hasather_> zcorpan: yes, so the error there is that is that the end tag doesn't match the start tag. But SGML doesn't define what to do in that case
  258. # [20:58] <zcorpan> hasather_: i thought it did (namely close the element anyway)
  259. # [21:02] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-1562dfdb61c10418)
  260. # [21:02] <hasather_> zcorpan: it says that the first end-tag delimiter-in-context (i.e. ETAGO followed by a name start character) closes the element.
  261. # [21:03] <zcorpan> hasather_: yes, exactly
  262. # [21:06] <zcorpan> but yeah, i guess you could argue that it doesn't say if you should do something different in case it is an error
  263. # [21:20] <tantek> takkaria, thanks. Also, I have attempted to add a rational response to the comments on molly's post: http://www.molly.com/2007/08/11/dear-w3c-dear-wasp/#comment-610009
  264. # [21:23] <takkaria> tantek: I tried that a while ago. never seems to do much, but I suppose one has to try
  265. # [21:24] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  266. # [21:24] <tantek> rationality is worth persistence
  267. # [21:26] <tantek> i'm actually optimistic that accessibility "advocates" can and will adopt more purely rational/scientific approaches to their advocacy, thus build stronger, more appealing cases for accessibility, which more will then listen to, which will hopefully result in more accessibility in technologies, tools, etc.
  268. # [21:28] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz)
  269. # [21:29] <tantek> here is an example of such a rational/scientific approach in progress, thanks largely to James Craig and a few other accessibility advocates: http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results
  270. # [21:29] * takkaria takes a look
  271. # [21:29] <takkaria> I was optimistic for a while, maybe it'll return now public-html has calmed down a little
  272. # [21:29] <tantek> it's not perfect, but it's a huge step in the right direction in terms of approach etc.
  273. # [21:32] <takkaria> yeah, that looks pretty good
  274. # [21:33] <tantek> we have to work on reducing the use of negative/personal rhetoric as a method of discourse - it doesn't help anybody
  275. # [21:34] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  291. # Session Close: Sun Aug 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)