/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-14 / end

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  55. # [05:18] <Hixie> Lachy: yt?
  56. # [05:18] <Lachy> yeah
  57. # [05:19] <Hixie> someone submitted a blog entry
  58. # [05:19] <Hixie> (just fyi, i'm sure you'll see the e-mail in due course!)
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  60. # [05:21] <Lachy> I haven't yet. Who sent you the mail?
  61. # [05:21] <Hixie> it was sent to the list
  62. # [05:23] <Lachy> oh, I thanks for pointing it out. It would have been a while before I read it
  63. # [05:24] <Lachy> there's actually 2 waiting for publishing. One is a short description and a link to http://blog.to-be.pl/2007/08/11/nowe-elementy-w-html-5/
  64. # [05:24] <Lachy> the other is about ruby
  65. # [05:24] <Hixie> cool
  66. # [05:24] <Lachy> not sure what language that is, though
  67. # [05:25] <Lachy> I like to include the language in the title, if the post isn't in english
  68. # [05:25] <Hixie> .pl is poland
  69. # [05:25] <Hixie> i think
  70. # [05:25] <othermaciej> that's Polish
  71. # [05:25] <Lachy> oh, I didn't notice the domain
  72. # [05:25] <Hixie> (btw, i recommend not reviewing the posts -- so long as they're not spam, i'd just post them)
  73. # [05:26] <Hixie> (after all, we only added the review step because of spammers)
  74. # [05:26] <othermaciej> it's about "new elements in html5"
  75. # [05:26] <Lachy> ah, that's a translation of that IBM article I read recently
  76. # [05:26] <Lachy> ah, there's a link to it at the bottom http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/
  77. # [05:27] <othermaciej> I can read Polish
  78. # [05:27] <othermaciej> although technical terms sometimes confuse me
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  81. # [05:34] <Lachy> oops! I should have set the post slug before publishing - it's a bit long. http://blog.whatwg.org/xhtml-5-will-have-the-only-usable-implementation-of-ruby-markup
  82. # [05:34] <Lachy> oh well, too late
  83. # [05:34] <Hixie> heh
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  89. # [07:48] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  90. # [07:48] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
  91. # [07:48] <othermaciej> which is up to #3 on my todo queue
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  95. # [09:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  96. # [09:51] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  103. # [10:54] <Hixie> sigh
  104. # [10:54] <Whiskey_M> what's up?
  105. # [10:54] <Hixie> i scan several billion documents, and robert burns isn't happy with the quality of my research
  106. # [10:54] <zcorpan_> Hixie: you're not trying hard enough ;)
  107. # [10:55] * zcorpan_ hides
  108. # [10:55] <Whiskey_M> I hope you did them by hand ;-)
  109. # [10:55] <krijnh> Yeah, we should get ourselves a new editor ;)
  110. # [10:55] <Hixie> and the other reply to my last public-html mail tells me that i shouldn't be making decisions
  111. # [10:55] <krijnh> Robert Burns likes writing..
  112. # [10:55] <Hixie> oh well
  113. # [11:07] * hendry sighs at the weather
  114. # [11:15] * Hixie updates the <img alt> section
  115. # [11:19] <karlUshi> I think what robert burns is saying
  116. # [11:19] <karlUshi> is that stats are not enough
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  118. # [11:20] <karlUshi> stats give us a rough evaluation of quantity, but not the quality.
  119. # [11:20] <Hixie> hah, the great alt="" revamp got the auspicious revision number r1000.
  120. # [11:20] <karlUshi> quality being what are the processes which have led to this stats. How authoring tools operate etc
  121. # [11:20] <Hixie> karlUshi: except in the case he's talking about, the stats were specifically about determining the quality of the content.
  122. # [11:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: scan the whole google cache. kthxbai.
  123. # [11:21] <Hixie> that's not far from basically what i'm doing actually (i work for google)
  124. # [11:21] <karlUshi> quality (in my sentence above) = using authoring tool by hand and sees how the markup is produced in an user interaction.
  125. # [11:22] <karlUshi> s/an user/a user/
  126. # [11:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm aware of what you're doing. I'm just saying _whole_ :)
  127. # [11:22] <Hixie> (though i scan a subset of the whole thing usually for reasons of not wanting to wait three months to get the results)
  128. # [11:22] <Hixie> i've done the whole thing sometimes :-)
  129. # [11:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm just wondering how you can satisfy Robert Burns better with the data you have access to
  130. # [11:22] <karlUshi> gsnedders: that would not solve the problems ;)
  131. # [11:22] <gsnedders> karlUshi: I know
  132. # [11:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: i don't think bigger numbers would make the slightest difference
  133. # [11:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm really not sure what would
  134. # [11:23] <Hixie> ok, any immediate comments on the alt text revamp?
  135. # [11:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: can the entire web.
  136. # [11:23] <karlUshi> exactly because bigger numbers don't do any differences
  137. # [11:23] <gsnedders> *scan
  138. # [11:23] <gsnedders> even if that is technically impossible!
  139. # [11:23] <karlUshi> quantity versus quality.
  140. # [11:23] <Hixie> statistically, what i've scanned is close enough to the entire web as makes no difference, to be honest
  141. # [11:24] <gsnedders> there is realistically no point in doing anything bigger, though
  142. # [11:24] <Hixie> right
  143. # [11:24] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  144. # [11:24] <gsnedders> you'd just get so similar results
  145. # [11:25] <Hixie> it's actually amasing how similar results others have been getting with just samples of a few thousand
  146. # [11:25] <karlUshi> Hixie: If you want different results, imho, you have to categorize
  147. # [11:26] <Hixie> and that's like 0.001% of what i've scanned
  148. # [11:26] <karlUshi> small random sample = big random sample with less confidence
  149. # [11:27] <karlUshi> what is interesting is what is hidden in the data when we just do samples
  150. # [11:27] <karlUshi> http://roslingsblogger.blogspot.com/
  151. # [11:30] <virtuelv> Hixie: re usemap: I'd like to see the opposite stats for what you did here, http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-August/012334.html
  152. # [11:30] <virtuelv> tell me which percentage breaks in which way
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  154. # [11:31] <virtuelv> for some weird reason, that seems to work better as a justification for people
  155. # [11:32] <Hixie> virtuelv: well, go through the list of URLs there and categorise them into the various reasons they fail (or pass), and you'll have that data :-)
  156. # [11:32] <karlUshi> "the problem is not ignorance but preconceived ideas"
  157. # [11:33] <Lachy> Hixie: which UAs support <input useemap>?
  158. # [11:33] <Hixie> firefox and opera, for some definition of "support"
  159. # [11:34] <Hixie> (i mean, the html4 spec was no more detailed about what it should do than it is for anything else)
  160. # [11:34] <Lachy> ok, so the fact that IE doesn't support it should be a good reason for not bothering to include it
  161. # [11:34] <virtuelv> Hixie: neh, just mentioning for future reference. I only follow certain parts of html5 work
  162. # [11:35] <Lachy> though I'm really confused by Robert's statement "Dropping client-side image maps for forms in a recommendation that is focussed on web applications seems completely counter-intuitive to me."
  163. # [11:35] <Hixie> yeah i didn't follow his e-mail at all
  164. # [11:35] <Lachy> I have no idea what use cases he's imaginign for it
  165. # [11:35] <Whiskey_M> is there a URL where his e-mail is stored?
  166. # [11:36] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0462.html
  167. # [11:36] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0462.html
  168. # [11:36] <Hixie> d'oh
  169. # [11:36] <Whiskey_M> 'ta :)
  170. # [11:39] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-188.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  171. # [11:40] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i love the examples on <img alt> :D
  172. # [11:40] <Hixie> :-D
  173. # [11:43] <Hixie> there are about 10 in-jokes in those examples
  174. # [11:43] <Hixie> some obvious
  175. # [11:43] <Hixie> some very obscure
  176. # [11:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm now going to get no work done today, just looking for them :P
  177. # [11:44] <Hixie> hah
  178. # [11:45] <gsnedders> at first glance I thought "XYZ.gif" read "YYZ.gif"
  179. # [11:45] <Hixie> XYZ.gif is one of the less obvious references
  180. # [11:45] * gsnedders ponders
  181. # [11:45] <gsnedders> (and starts playing YYZ while doing so)
  182. # [11:47] <Lachy> heh, I can't wait till I get an iPhone so I can compare the reflectiveness of my apple logo :-)
  183. # [11:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: please don't say 1100670787_6a7c664aef is a joke.
  184. # [11:47] <Hixie> hah
  185. # [11:47] <Hixie> gsnedders: yup :-)
  186. # [11:47] * gsnedders stabs Hixie
  187. # [11:47] <gsnedders> sorry, but that's just evil.
  188. # [11:47] <Hixie> actually that one is one of the more funny ones
  189. # [11:47] <Hixie> and one of the easiest to track down
  190. # [11:47] <gsnedders> I can make several guesses about what it is
  191. # [11:48] * gsnedders wonders if he can search such things for such an ID easily
  192. # [11:48] * Joins: colione (n=anon@c-d324e655.29-7-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  193. # [11:49] <Hixie> actually i don't know how you would track it down, come to think of it
  194. # [11:49] <Hixie> oh, i know
  195. # [11:50] <Hixie> aha, yes
  196. # [11:50] <Lachy> oh, don't reveal the answer yet, I want to try and figure them all out !
  197. # [11:50] <Hixie> i can do one search for a very specific, obvious string, on one site, to find the reference that's to
  198. # [11:50] <gsnedders> OBVIOUS!?
  199. # [11:51] <gsnedders> I really should work :\
  200. # [11:51] * zcorpan_ too
  201. # [11:51] * krijnh too
  202. # [11:51] <Hixie> hah
  203. # [11:51] <Lachy> I'm trying to work out what "sequence of rounded squares with varying shades of green and bold white outlines" refers to. That doesn't sound like the old WHATWG logo
  204. # [11:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: stop wasting our time! ;)
  205. # [11:51] <gsnedders> we're so hard working here
  206. # [11:51] <Hixie> tee hee
  207. # [11:51] <gsnedders> just on the wrong things
  208. # [11:51] <Hixie> Lachy: that one is one of the other pretty funny ones
  209. # [11:52] <Lachy> oh, got it!
  210. # [11:53] <Hixie> hah
  211. # [11:53] * gsnedders still ponders
  212. # [11:53] <Lachy> I missed the bit about the blue book, and then that reminded me of John's book
  213. # [11:53] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  214. # [11:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: shhhh
  215. # [11:54] <Hixie> assuming you all got the reference in the first example (and the other later one with the same text), then there are only three that are really possible to get
  216. # [11:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: so kind
  217. # [11:54] <Hixie> that's the XYZ one, the "consider for a moment" one, and the 1100670787_6a7c664aef one
  218. # [11:55] * hsivonen found 1100670787_6a7c664aef
  219. # [11:55] <Hixie> teehee
  220. # [11:55] <Hixie> you're good
  221. # [11:55] <gsnedders> hmmm…
  222. # [11:55] <gsnedders> it'll be some ID specific to some site
  223. # [11:55] <gsnedders> (probably)
  224. # [11:56] <Hixie> (the other examples are either references that aren't funny, or just made up things based on the other in-jokes)
  225. # [11:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: but no, I didn't get that reference in the first example
  226. # [11:56] <Hixie> the first example should be immediately obvious to anyone here :-P
  227. # [11:57] * Quits: yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) ("Leaving")
  228. # [11:57] <gsnedders> where it comes from, or what?
  229. # [11:57] <Hixie> yeah
  230. # [11:57] <Hixie> it's not funny
  231. # [11:57] <gsnedders> yeah, I got that straight away
  232. # [11:57] <Hixie> right
  233. # [11:57] <gsnedders> I simply glanced over that, looking too deeply
  234. # [11:57] <Hixie> hehe
  235. # [11:57] * gsnedders needs to implement that, actually
  236. # [11:57] <Lachy> how is the XYZ company a joke?
  237. # [11:58] <hsivonen> I like the /images/logo example
  238. # [11:58] <Hixie> lachy: it's a reference to something quite old, and the third example from that series is based on it
  239. # [11:58] <Hixie> not saying it's especially funny mind you
  240. # [11:58] * gsnedders laughs at what iTunes randomly plays
  241. # [11:58] * gsnedders is listening to I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For by U2 from Rattle And Hum
  242. # [11:58] <Hixie> hah
  243. # [11:59] <gsnedders> myself and a friend have a running joke about iTunes being psychic. it _always_ does such things, but _only_ on OS X.
  244. # [11:59] <Lachy> Hixie: the 3rd example in the whole spec from the same series?
  245. # [12:00] <Lachy> or, actually, I'm not sure what you meant by "the third example from that series is based on it"
  246. # [12:01] <gsnedders> I can't get the ΑΒΓ joke at all
  247. # [12:01] <Hixie> Lachy: the third example in the xyz/alpha-beta-gamma series is a reference to something specific
  248. # [12:02] <Hixie> gsnedders: which one?
  249. # [12:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: both
  250. # [12:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: can't get the XYZ one either
  251. # [12:02] <Hixie> ah :-)
  252. # [12:02] <gsnedders> am I just too young? :)
  253. # [12:03] <Hixie> could be, it's reference to something from the late 90s
  254. # [12:03] <Whiskey_M> am I right in thinking (sorry doing other stuff so slow), that the <input type="image" usemap="..." >, functionality would trigger a get user agent request? (sorry for being dim, obviously need more tea)
  255. # [12:03] <Hixie> though i don't expect anyone here to get it without searching for it
  256. # [12:03] * gsnedders feels young again
  257. # [12:03] <Lachy> oh, I see. I thought "series" was referring to some TV series or something
  258. # [12:04] <Hixie> Whiskey_M: how do you mean? when clicked?
  259. # [12:04] <Whiskey_M> yup
  260. # [12:05] <gsnedders> "sequence of rounded squares with varying shades of green and bold white outlines"
  261. # [12:05] <gsnedders> hmmm…
  262. # [12:05] <Whiskey_M> sorry, into a meeting now
  263. # [12:05] <Hixie> Whiskey_M: yeah, it would work much the same way as <img usemap>
  264. # [12:05] <gsnedders> I'd expect it to have been published on a blue book
  265. # [12:06] <gsnedders> 11:06+01 and I haven't started work yet. :\
  266. # [12:10] <Lachy> Hixie: "... but if the image makes it a lot easier for users of visual browsers to understand the concept." - either remove "if" or finish the statement.
  267. # [12:11] <Hixie> oops, missing "including"
  268. # [12:12] <Lachy> I think you should s/if/including/
  269. # [12:13] <Hixie> i was going to do s/if/if including/
  270. # [12:13] <Hixie> but yeah, i'll remove the second if
  271. # [12:13] <Lachy> nah, that doesn't work
  272. # [12:13] <Hixie> (and replace it with including)
  273. # [12:14] * hsivonen doesn't get the specific reference of the alpha-beta-gamma pie chart
  274. # [12:14] <Lachy> it sounds like it could be some Dilbert reference or something
  275. # [12:14] <Hixie> much more obscure than that
  276. # [12:14] <Hixie> (much closer to home than that, too)
  277. # [12:15] <hsivonen> I thought it was a reference to the latest Stevenote but the colors are wrong
  278. # [12:15] <Hixie> oooh, i didn't think of having examples to keynotes
  279. # [12:15] <Lachy> Hixie: where's the obligatory Stargate reference in this section?
  280. # [12:16] <Hixie> heh
  281. # [12:16] <Hixie> haven't seen stargate in months, it's not on the mind
  282. # [12:17] <Hixie> talking about not understanding references, can anyone work out wtf this e-mail is talking about? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-August/012351.html
  283. # [12:18] <Hixie> "My sense is that a consensus is building in the group to use a generalized XML-like syntax for the examples and illustrations in the semantics chapter."
  284. # [12:18] <Hixie> it is?
  285. # [12:19] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  286. # [12:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: no
  287. # [12:19] <Hixie> no to the e-mail, or to the examples' syntax? :-)
  288. # [12:19] <Hixie> or both? :-)
  289. # [12:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: the latter
  290. # [12:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: syntax that is
  291. # [12:20] <Hixie> ah ok
  292. # [12:20] <Hixie> well good
  293. # [12:20] <Hixie> though someone should probably let him know
  294. # [12:20] <Lachy> I found 1100670787_6a7c664aef, but I don't know who the person in the photo is
  295. # [12:20] <Hixie> not it!
  296. # [12:20] <Hixie> Lachy: me
  297. # [12:20] <Lachy> oh
  298. # [12:22] <gsnedders> hah
  299. # [12:23] <Hixie> right
  300. # [12:23] <Hixie> bed time
  301. # [12:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: i added the red boxes like you suggested
  302. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: mind PMing me the link?
  303. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Lachy: to 1100670787_6a7c664aef?
  304. # [12:24] <Lachy> no
  305. # [12:24] <gsnedders> why was I expecting that? :)
  306. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks. the div one is rather opinionated ;-)
  307. # [12:24] <Lachy> I thought it would be obvious which site it came from based on the filename. After that, it's not too hard to figure out what to search for
  308. # [12:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: :-D
  309. # [12:25] <Lachy> the div one? Which one is that?
  310. # [12:25] <gsnedders> Lachy: but surely such a filename could be any photo gallery?
  311. # [12:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: i have but one thing to say about <div>: http://gallery.mac.com/emily_parker
  312. # [12:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: see rev 1001
  313. # [12:27] <Hixie> that url also serves well as an argument for irrelevant=""
  314. # [12:27] * colione found the 1100670787_6a7c664aef too
  315. # [12:27] * zcorpan_ also, btw
  316. # [12:27] * gsnedders feels dumb
  317. # [12:28] * colione wonders how many really famous photo sharing sites there is.. :)
  318. # [12:28] <Hixie> colione: well, i just posted a link to one above :-D
  319. # [12:29] <Hixie> so at least 2 ;-)
  320. # [12:29] * gsnedders can't get what to search for
  321. # [12:29] <colione> :D
  322. # [12:30] <gsnedders> I'm probably on the right site, at least
  323. # [12:31] <gsnedders> ah. searching for a substring of what is needed doesn't help :D
  324. # [12:31] <gsnedders> hmm… it only has two views :\
  325. # [12:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders: try the API
  326. # [12:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: multiple have confirmed I got it right, though
  327. # [12:35] * zcorpan_ got the logo joke
  328. # [12:35] <gsnedders> *multiple people
  329. # [12:37] <Hixie> zcorpan_: woot
  330. # [12:39] <Hixie> right, *gone*
  331. # [12:43] <zcorpan_> xml doesn't define error handling??
  332. # [12:45] <gsnedders> WHAT!?
  333. # [12:45] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/mid/54DFD15E-C8EA-445C-A674-8611405F77CD@robburns.com
  334. # [12:45] <gsnedders> actually, I think XML says it's an error, but not fatal
  335. # [12:46] <gsnedders> no, that must be something else
  336. # [12:47] <gsnedders> here we go.
  337. # [12:47] <gsnedders> "Note that non-validating processors are not obligated to to read and process entity declarations occurring in parameter entities or in the external subset; for such documents, the rule that an entity must be declared is a well-formedness constraint only if standalone='yes'."
  338. # [12:47] <gsnedders> http://w3.org/TR/xml/#wf-entdeclared
  339. # [12:48] <zcorpan_> right, so if there's an external dtd and you're non-validating, entity references you don't know about is an error but not fatal
  340. # [12:48] <gsnedders> it doesn't specify what to do, though
  341. # [12:48] <Lachy> zcorpan_: yes
  342. # [12:49] <Lachy> but I have no idea where Rob is getting his ideas about stray & and < characters
  343. # [12:49] * zcorpan_ neither
  344. # [12:49] <Lachy> they're defined as fatal well formedness errors
  345. # [12:50] <gsnedders> an entity to be treated as above still has to match the requirements for an entity ('&' Name ';')
  346. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> indeed
  347. # [12:51] <gsnedders> which does mean there will be some where that is the case
  348. # [12:52] <gsnedders> surely we have to assume that we have a standard XML parser that creates a DOM, so we can't do anything to it?
  349. # [12:52] <hsivonen> fwiw, the reason why unrecognized entities are fatal in Gecko is that as far as expat is concerned, it hasn't skipped the DTD but parsed a zero-length DTD
  350. # [12:53] <hsivonen> the Gecko entity resolver resolves unknown external entities to a zero-length stream
  351. # [12:53] <hsivonen> unknown: those that don't have a mapping in the built-in catalog
  352. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Rob is right that by configuring the XML processor to skip extenal entities and by using a reference to an external entity in the document, one can open up a loop hole that allows entity references to be expanded on the application level
  353. # [12:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: but he says that stray & and < are not well-formedness errors
  354. # [12:58] <hsivonen> however, the question that one must ask what good is using XML if you do your utmost to exploit loop holes to escape the nature of XML
  355. # [12:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, that part is bogus
  356. # [13:06] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  357. # [13:10] <takkaria> Hixie: typo in new <img> text, grep for "Standadrs" in one of the examples
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  359. # [13:26] <hendry> anyknow what what WICD is about?
  360. # [13:26] <hendry> anyone know what WICD is about? http://www.w3.org/TR/WICD/
  361. # [13:29] * Quits: cplot (n=cplot@mb20736d0.tmodns.net)
  362. # [13:30] <zcorpan_> hendry: it's wicked
  363. # [13:30] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-89-143.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  364. # [13:30] <hendry> zcorpan_: not crazy?
  365. # [13:31] <zcorpan_> </pun>
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  373. # [14:31] <Lachy> I wrote a script to mark the issues in the spec with the text "Big Issue:" http://lachy.id.au/dev/utilities/#mark-issues
  374. # [14:31] <Lachy> I made a bookmarklet to do it manually, though we could probably get the script added to the spec
  375. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: wouldn't CSS generated content work fine?
  376. # [14:36] <Lachy> how well does that work with assistive technology? e.g. JAWS running on IE
  377. # [14:37] <Lachy> I wrote it based on Steve Faulkner's post to public-html
  378. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: oh. IE...
  379. # [14:45] <Lachy> yeah, I just fixed that bug, reload the script
  380. # [14:46] * Joins: grimboy_uk (n=grimboy@85.211.235.75)
  381. # [14:46] <Lachy> now I can't figure out why it's not working in Opera
  382. # [14:47] <Philip`> http://www.twaynet.com/trade/t.asp?ID=1100670787 - aha, that alt text example is a reference to Peek Pi Pps Engineering Plastics Bearings!
  383. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: huh?
  384. # [14:50] <Philip`> It's the same number as in 1100670787_6a7c664aef.jpg and there's only a one-in-a-billion chance of it being a coincidence :-)
  385. # [14:50] <hsivonen> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/08/13/cc-elephants accessibility guy uses alt for title & authorship data
  386. # [14:50] <Lachy> ah, I had uploaded the old version of the bookmarklet. Now it works! :-)
  387. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh
  388. # [14:51] <virtuelv> Lachy: got a URL I can test that script on?
  389. # [14:51] <Lachy> yeah, the spec
  390. # [14:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Other typos in the <img> thing: "greek" -> "Greek"; "aquisition" -> "acquisition"; "shallot.jpeg" -> "shalott.jpeg"
  391. # [14:55] <Lachy> hmm. It doesn't work in Safari :-(
  392. # [14:55] <Lachy> is there some trick to getting bookmarklets to work in it?
  393. # [15:00] <Lachy> hmm. mark-issues.js works fine in Safari, but the bookmarklet is broken. Oh well.
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  398. # [15:10] <virtuelv> Lachy: it's the bookmarklet itself that breaks
  399. # [15:10] <Lachy> yeah, I know. Do you know why?
  400. # [15:11] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/zon/ working prototype parser for a custom tests format i came up with to be able to write lots of tests for getting innerHTML
  401. # [15:12] <virtuelv> Lachy: looking into it, because it should not break
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  403. # [15:16] <virtuelv> Lachy: dunno exactly what happened, but this: javascript:(function(){var d=document.documentElement.appendChild(document.createElement('script'));d.src='http://lachy.id.au/dev/utilities/mark-issues.js'})() works in my version of Opera
  404. # [15:17] <Lachy> yeah, it works in Opera fine now. I fixed the bug that was causing Opera to break already
  405. # [15:17] <Lachy> oh, did you mean Safari?
  406. # [15:18] <virtuelv> don't have Safari here
  407. # [15:19] <Lachy> oh, then why was my version breaking in Opera? Were you using the older version?
  408. # [15:19] <virtuelv> no, I tested in an internal version, in which your bookmarklet broke
  409. # [15:20] <colione> Nice work zcorpan_
  410. # [15:23] <zcorpan_> thanks colione
  411. # [15:34] <Lachy> virtuelv: ok, you'd better file a bug report for it then :-)
  412. # [15:34] <Lachy> virtuelv: I didn't realise you worked at Opera
  413. # [15:35] <virtuelv> Lachy: but you changed the bookmarklet somewhat? I retested it, and now it seems to work
  414. # [15:36] <Lachy> the last change I made to it was to add the outer (function() { ... })()
  415. # [15:36] <Lachy> the original one I had uploaded omitted it by mistake and, although it worked in Firefox, it broke in Opera
  416. # [15:37] <virtuelv> I tested the one that didn't wrap it in a function
  417. # [15:37] <Lachy> ok
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  419. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> "User agents may adjust prefixes and namespace declarations in the serialisation (and indeed might be forced to do so in some cases to obtain namespace-well-formed XML)." -- should this perhaps be fleshed out and be specced as a set of requirements so that it can be tested?
  420. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> getting innerHTML in XML that is
  421. # [15:53] * Quits: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d6.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  422. # [16:09] <gsnedders> or even speccing it out as an algorithm, so everything must implement it consistently?
  423. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> yeah
  424. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> that would be good
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  426. # [16:34] <Lachy> charlvn added the script to the annotate-web-apps.js script, so now the issues get annotated automatically :-)
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  432. # [16:52] <Lachy> ah... how should I respond to this? http://www.w3.org/mid/46C1BF25.9060808@Rhul.Ac.Uk
  433. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: that phrasing confuses me slightly…
  434. # [16:54] <Lachy> in what way?
  435. # [16:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: "Many sites that used usemap="" on <input type="image"> cease to work in browsers that implement usemap, therefore it has been dropped from HTML 5."
  436. # [16:54] <Philip`> Try giving an example where it breaks
  437. # [16:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: I dunno. It just is confusing.
  438. # [16:54] <Philip`> (preferably of a real site)
  439. # [16:55] <Lachy> yeah, I was just making a test case
  440. # [16:55] <Lachy> to see how it works
  441. # [16:55] <Philip`> and then say that UAs which don't implement <img usemap> work better than those which do
  442. # [16:55] <Philip`> and hopefully that'd be clear enough :-)
  443. # [16:56] <Lachy> ok.
  444. # [16:56] <gsnedders> and list UAs
  445. # [16:56] <Whiskey_M> <img usermap, or <input type="image" usermap ?
  446. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Whiskey_M: the latter
  447. # [16:56] * Philip` wonders if this is the kind of place where the HTML 5 test suite should explicitly test that UAs don't support usemap
  448. # [16:56] <takkaria> Lachy: I was very tempted to ask if he could just read it again and save us all bandwidth ;)
  449. # [16:57] <Philip`> (and how you can do that kind of testing nicely when the spec doesn't talk about usemap at all)
  450. # [16:57] <Lachy> ha!
  451. # [16:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: does anything prohibit UAs that implement HTML5 from supporting further elements?
  452. # [16:58] <Philip`> Oops, yes, I didn't mean <img usemap>
  453. # [16:58] <Lachy> perhaps, in cases like this, the spec should give explicit requirements for certain attributes to be ignored
  454. # [17:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: Don't know - it just seems good for UA quality assurance if the HTML test suite can test that UAs work as well as possible, and ignoring usemap appears to be some that is needed for a UA to work as well as possible
  455. # [17:01] <Philip`> and I don't know how that situation would be best handled
  456. # [17:06] <takkaria> I think the spec requring a certain attribute not be handled that was defined in a previous version of the spec would be a good solution; or at least saying that for compatiblity, UAs should not implement the attribute
  457. # [17:10] * Quits: Ducki (i=Ducki@213-102-92-225.cust.tele2.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  458. # [17:10] <Philip`> I posted http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/012063.html a while ago about supporting non-standard features - keeping non-standardised support for compatibility reasons seems like a bad idea in terms of having a relevant-in-the-real-world spec
  459. # [17:10] <Philip`> (because if it's needed for compatibility, it should be in the spec, and if it's not needed, it shouldn't be in the implementations)
  460. # [17:11] <Philip`> It feels kind of cruel to look in people's source code and create test cases specifically for them to fail, though
  461. # [17:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: keeping? what about adding?
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  471. # [18:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't understand what difference between Safari and Firefox http://alforag.com/donate/ illustrates
  472. # [18:21] <Lachy> it's the Sign up for updates form that breaks, were you testing the other one below (which I didn't notice originally)
  473. # [18:22] <Lachy> In Firefox, when you click the go button, it's treated as a link to a file:// URI and goes nowhere. In Safari, it submits the form.
  474. # [18:23] <hsivonen> Lachy: oh, right. I clicked the image outside the red rectangle, so I didn't notice
  475. # [18:24] <Lachy> oh, I didn't notice one could click outside the red
  476. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Lachy: being very observant today? :)
  477. # [18:38] <Lachy> gsnedders: me being observerant? I don't think so!
  478. # [18:39] <gsnedders> maybe this is why I try and do backend development. less observation needed.
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  484. # [19:19] <takkaria> there does seem to be a strong expert-bias in public-html
  485. # [19:23] <Lachy> takkaria: what do you mean by expert-bias?
  486. # [19:24] * Quits: colione (n=anon@c-d324e655.29-7-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
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  488. # [19:25] <takkaria> the comment that brought it about was Philip Taylor's "allowing the craziness of a small number of individuals to outweigh the combined wisdom of all those who formulated the specification for HTML 4.01"
  489. # [19:27] <takkaria> the idea being that an expert's opinion is worth far more than anyone else's, in short
  490. # [19:27] <hsivonen> takkaria: curiously, those who formulated HTML 4.01 are automatically assumed to have had wisdom whereas those who formulate HTML 5 aren't
  491. # [19:27] <hsivonen> I guess that happens when a spec is old enough
  492. # [19:27] <takkaria> interesting how people acquire mythical status over time. :)
  493. # [19:28] <Lachy> yeah, despite the fact that we have a whole 10 years worth of real world evidence that the HTML4 WG didn't have
  494. # [19:31] <gsnedders> why don't we just continue using SGML? fuck the real world, it keeps us consistent with the wisdom of HTML 4.01
  495. # [19:33] <Lachy> gsnedders, XML is the future, SGML failed
  496. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: but that goes against the wisdom of the old HTML WG!
  497. # [19:34] <gsnedders> Lachy: and they must be right!
  498. # [19:34] <gsnedders> Lachy: and you can't say anything to change that!
  499. # [19:34] <Lachy> the old HTMLWG already began the migration to XML as soon as it became available
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  501. # [19:34] <Lachy> they ditched HTML4 after XHTML1
  502. # [19:34] <takkaria> I imagine who you define as an expert is a function of how much your views and theirs match up. :)
  503. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Lachy: were they still called the HTML WG?
  504. # [19:35] <Lachy> takkaria, I define you as an expert :-)
  505. # [19:35] * takkaria grins
  506. # [19:35] * gsnedders defines self as idiot
  507. # [19:35] <Philip`> Did they actually care about SGML when writing HTML4, or did they just keep using it because that's what the previous versions of HTML used?
  508. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: IIRC it's that they didn't want to reverse engineer everything
  509. # [19:35] <Lachy> gsnedders, yes, the status of XHTML1 still talks about the "HTML Working Group"
  510. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Lachy: when did the name change?
  511. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Lachy: the rechartering this year?
  512. # [19:36] <Lachy> it changed from HTML WG to XHTML2 WG earlier this year
  513. # [19:36] <gsnedders> so yeah
  514. # [19:37] <Lachy> I'm sure they just kept using it based on the wisdom of those who wrote HTML 3.2 using SGML
  515. # [19:37] <Lachy> which was in turn based on the wisdom of those who wrote HTML2
  516. # [19:37] <Lachy> which was actually not based on the wisdom of TBL who didn't originally use SGML when he first created it
  517. # [19:38] <gsnedders> which was based on the criticism of the IIIR-HTML draft?
  518. # [19:38] <Philip`> So they were following the SGML cow path? :-)
  519. # [19:38] <gsnedders> was I even born when the IIIR-HTML draft was written?
  520. # [19:38] <gsnedders> 1993. ah good. I was alive!
  521. # [19:38] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Leaving")
  522. # [19:39] <Whiskey_M> gs: lol
  523. # [19:39] <takkaria> did they have cowpaths back then? :)
  524. # [19:39] <Lachy> what does IIIR stand for?
  525. # [19:39] * Joins: weinig_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-3070b208135e8a1c)
  526. # [19:40] <Lachy> ah, Integration of Internet Information Resources Working Group
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  529. # [19:40] <Philip`> They should have called it the I3R
  530. # [19:40] <gsnedders> looking it up on Wikipedia gives a search page, results including "Transsexual sexuality" :\
  531. # [19:41] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  532. # [19:41] <takkaria> sounds like grounds for a libel claim to me
  533. # [19:41] <gsnedders> note to self: wikipedia does not have the answers to everything. google does.
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  564. # [21:51] <Jero> hey, was reading http://pearlcrescent.com/products/pagesaver/ and read their extension uses the <canvas> element to somehow make a screenshot of the page.
  565. # [21:51] <Jero> "Page Saver uses the canvas feature that was introduced in Firefox 1.5."
  566. # [21:51] <Jero> does anyone know how they pull that off?
  567. # [21:52] <Philip`> There's a (non-standard) drawWindow method, which is usable only by extensions and not normal web content
  568. # [21:53] <Jero> i see...
  569. # [21:54] <Philip`> ctx.drawWindow(window, x, y, w, h, bgcolor)
  570. # [21:54] <Philip`> (I think)
  571. # [21:54] <Jero> interesting
  572. # [21:55] <Philip`> (It's disabled for web content because of security concerns)
  573. # [21:55] <Philip`> ( http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/content/canvas/src/nsCanvasRenderingContext2D.cpp#2305 )
  574. # [21:57] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@85-220-84-60.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is)
  575. # [21:58] <Jero> Thanks!
  576. # [22:00] <Jero> the thing is, i was checking out the possibilities of creating a web application that takes a URL, feeds it to Gecko, and outputs a PNG image
  577. # [22:01] <Jero> sort of like khtml2png (http://khtml2png.sourceforge.net/)
  578. # [22:01] * Joins: weinig_ (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-0f2720b2b7aecc49)
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  580. # [22:01] <met_> Philip`, this drawWindow is only for Mozilla XPCOM or is it accessible from JavaScript?
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  582. # [22:02] <met_> Jero, check http://www.screengrab.org/ extension
  583. # [22:02] <Philip`> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2005/05/rendering_web_p.html
  584. # [22:03] <Philip`> met_: It works in JS too
  585. # [22:03] <met_> Philip`, just trying but it gives me some security error
  586. # [22:04] <met_> ah there is example, going to try it, thx
  587. # [22:04] <Jero> met_, thanks
  588. # [22:04] <Philip`> met_: You need UniversalBrowserRead privileges, either by being chrome (like an extension) or by doing some magic to ask the user for permission
  589. # [22:05] <met_> Philip`, ah this 8-(
  590. # [22:05] <met_> so it is not primary designed for web but for XUL apps
  591. # [22:05] <Philip`> netscape.security.PrivilegeManager.enablePrivilege('UniversalBrowserRead')
  592. # [22:05] <Philip`> (Hooray for netscape)
  593. # [22:06] <Philip`> met_: Yes, since the security issues of exposing it to the web are seemingly non-trivial
  594. # [22:07] <Philip`> (I think it would be quite a useful thing to have web access to, but I don't know how it'd be implemented)
  595. # [22:10] * met_ is not sure if there are still some security problems if you can draw only window from your domain
  596. # [22:10] <met_> you can screenshot filled form, but you have access to it anyway
  597. # [22:10] <colione> There will still be som XSS concerns
  598. # [22:11] <met_> colione: iframes and frames from other domains can remain blank
  599. # [22:11] <Philip`> The window from your domain can contain content from other domains (images, iframes, etc) and it's hard to filter all that stuff out correctly
  600. # [22:11] <met_> in rendered view
  601. # [22:11] <met_> not sure if images are the real problem too
  602. # [22:12] <colione> Imagine some badly coded application that takes arguments in a querystring and don't sanitize it...you can put in any arbitrary script there
  603. # [22:13] <met_> colione, but what is problem with canvas2d.drawWindow ?
  604. # [22:15] <colione> that page might lead to a registration page and you can for example hook a function to the submit button that takes a screenshot of the page and send in over the web
  605. # [22:15] <colione> prehaps not the best example, but still possible
  606. # [22:17] <met_> if you have access to this page, frame, you can do it anyway - making screenshot is only better comfort
  607. # [22:19] <Jero> Okay, so lets say if i wanted to make a web application that takes a URL to create a screenshot of it using Gecko. Do you think it would be possible to make the app call Firefox with an extension that uses the drawWindow method on the server to save the image on the server? Or would there be a better way?
  608. # [22:22] <Philip`> Jero: http://www.hackdiary.com/archives/000055.html sounds like what you're doing
  609. # [22:24] <Jero> Philip`, oh wow, awesome, thanks!
  610. # [22:24] <Philip`> (Using an embedded Mozilla is probably much easier than trying to automate the Firefox UI)
  611. # [22:25] <Jero> yeah
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  614. # [22:35] <Hixie> Philip`: there's more than one-in-a-billion chance, it's a birthday attack ;-)
  615. # [22:39] <Hixie> fixed the other typos, thanks
  616. # [22:39] <Philip`> Someone should do a survey of all the numbers that are on the web, limited to ten digits or so - it could be interesting to see if any particular numbers are unrepresented...
  617. # [22:40] <Philip`> (And then publish the results somewhere, hence filling in all the gaps)
  618. # [22:42] <Hixie> it would probably show a propensity towards numbers that start with 1
  619. # [22:43] <Hixie> there's a theory regarding the likelihood of that in any number sample
  620. # [22:44] * gsnedders wonders how high up 42 would be
  621. # [22:44] <Philip`> Hixie: Something I noticed earlier today: Why add <nav> instead of reusing <map>? HTML4 says <map> can be used for navigation stuff, and http://www.noraradcliffe.co.uk/ uses it for that (though that's the only one I could find in ~8000 pages), and you can style it properly in current versions of IE and Firefox (unlike <nav>)
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  624. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> Philip`: then <map> would be sectioning element or not depending on if it was used as an image map or not... and afaict using <map> meaning navigation isn't widely understood by authors
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  626. # [22:50] <Hixie> Philip`: i prefer not to overload things where it isn't necessary
  627. # [22:56] * met_ is lost while reading http://webkit.org/blog/115/webcore-rendering-ii-blocks-and-inlines/ Blocks inside Inline Flows section
  628. # [22:57] * met_ didn't undestund why inlines around block are splitted
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  630. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> jgraham__: that would be awsome (re table algorithm prototyping)
  631. # [22:58] * zcorpan_ has some ideas for possible algorithms, but not really written down
  632. # [23:00] <zcorpan_> trying to figure out header cells from TD-only tables could be interesting, but might be taking it too far...? i mean, there are data tables where all cells are just data
  633. # [23:02] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  634. # [23:08] <Philip`> zcorpan_, Hixie: Okay, makes sense
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  639. # [23:19] * Hixie sighs as he contributes yet another unhelpful e-mail to public-html
  640. # [23:19] <Hixie> maybe i should just unsubscribe
  641. # [23:21] * Quits: cplot (n=cplot@c-98-193-22-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  642. # [23:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: yeah, just leave the WG
  643. # [23:22] <Hixie> the funny thing is, i have no trouble keeping up with the volume of e-mail
  644. # [23:22] <Hixie> my problem is that i sometimes can't help replying to e-mails
  645. # [23:22] <gsnedders> ah. I have no problem with either.
  646. # [23:23] <gsnedders> The amount of junk makes it easier to do the first though, as there is less in-depth reading needed
  647. # [23:25] * Joins: cplot (n=cplot@98.193.22.194)
  648. # [23:39] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  649. # [23:39] <takkaria> I've drafted several replies to things on public-html, but they go in the "drafts" folder and I never remember about things that go there
  650. # [23:41] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  651. # [23:42] <zcorpan_> takkaria: yep, having public-html mail in the drafts folder for a while might be a good thing... :)
  652. # [23:43] <takkaria> well, when I come back to it, I don't remember writing it, so it gets deleted
  653. # [23:43] <takkaria> also, thunderbird has mysteriously hidden one so that it only shows up in the folder view when I look at only-unread stuff
  654. # [23:43] <takkaria> despite it not being unread
  655. # [23:48] <zcorpan_> my point being that it results in less mail to the list. :)
  656. # [23:48] * takkaria nods
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  658. # [23:49] <zcorpan_> if one doesn't remember what a mail was about, it probably wasn't important anyway ;)
  659. # [23:49] <takkaria> no. not on the grand scale of things
  660. # [23:49] <colione> tell the person with amnesia...
  661. # [23:50] <takkaria> normally someone else comes along and makes the same point, more or less eloquently, and I can be happy that I didn't waste bandwidth
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  665. # Session Close: Wed Aug 15 00:00:00 2007

The end :)