/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 16 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/zon/001.htm -- the framework should be pretty good now, so now i can start actually writing tests using it... :)
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  8. # [00:23] * jgraham__ is supremely unconcerned with whether his flickr page validates
  9. # [00:23] * jgraham__ is now known as jgraham
  10. # [00:25] <jgraham> But perhaps I should be. I mean I have never considered it as an issue when choosing where to put my photos
  11. # [00:25] <jgraham> I guess valid markup would be easier to scrape
  12. # [00:26] <jgraham> if I wanted to retrieve data and the API was taken away
  13. # [00:26] <Hixie> man if http://my.opera.com/oedipus/albums/ is supposed to be an example of good alt text, my standards are too high
  14. # [00:26] <Hixie> (i tried switching to no CSS and turned off images and that page and its subpages became unusable)
  15. # [00:32] <jgraham> Yeah, those images seem to have no useful alt text
  16. # [00:34] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe it indicates that your perspective is not the same as that of the target audience for alt text
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  19. # [00:37] <Hixie> Philip`: i'd love to see that perspective
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  22. # [00:48] <Hixie> Philip`: so... i'm basically ignorant of the statistics stuff, which i should have learnt at university but it seems i've forgotten all of it
  23. # [00:48] <Hixie> Philip`: how can i determine what the accuracy of my numbers is?
  24. # [00:48] <Hixie> that is, how can i work out the error margin?
  25. # [00:48] <Hixie> the way that you do
  26. # [00:52] <Hixie> (feel free to reply here, i'll be back online in about 25 minutes)
  27. # [00:52] <Philip`> I'm basically ignorant of it too, but I think I can remember just enough to find the parts of Wikipedia that look relevant and non-vandalised :-)
  28. # [00:54] <Philip`> When looking at a random sample of pages and getting a binary value for each (e.g. page does/doesn't have <blink>), the measured mean should follow a binomial distribution (i.e. each value is 'yes' with a probability p, independent of all other values)
  29. # [00:55] <Philip`> and, as in <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution#Normal_approximation>, that can be approximated as a normal distribution with mean n*p and variance n*p*(1-p) (as long as n*p and n*(1-p) are large enough, like about 10)
  30. # [00:55] <Philip`> and then standard deviation = sqrt(variance) = sqrt(n*p*(1-p)) (by definition)
  31. # [00:56] <Philip`> and, as in <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution#Standard_deviation>, about 95% of values are within two standard deviations of the mean
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  33. # [00:58] <Philip`> so there is a 95% probability that the real population mean (from which the sample was taken) is within 2 std devs of the measured sample mean
  34. # [00:59] <Philip`> p is the real population mean, which you can't know since you're just looking at a sample, but there's probably some theory somewhere that says it's valid to do this with p = the measured sample mean
  35. # [01:00] <Philip`> which means you can count n (sample size), calculate p (proportion of sample which were true), then with 95% confidence the real population mean is n*p +/- 2*sqrt(n*p*(1-p))
  36. # [01:01] <Philip`> But I wouldn't mind checking with someone who really knows how to do statistics to make sure that's all valid and not just cheating :-)
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  38. # [01:05] <Philip`> (At least that final equation has roughly the right behaviour - the proportional error decreases with sqrt(n), so using a million times larger sample only gives an extra three decimal places of accuracy)
  39. # [01:05] <Philip`> (which is why I'm happy looking at eight thousand web pages instead of eight billion :-) )
  40. # [01:06] <Philip`> (...at least for things which are >1%, because otherwise n*p gets really small and the data becomes useless if the sample isn't huge)
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  42. # [01:12] <jgraham> Philip`: That final answer looks familiar
  43. # [01:18] <Philip`> Oops, I think I gave Robert Burns the wrong idea about how <input usemap> is currently supported
  44. # [01:19] <Philip`> (I'm not sure why he doesn't just try the example in Firefox and see that it works like it's meant to...)
  45. # [01:26] <Hixie> ok so if p=0.0001878 (fraction of pages with a <td<> element [sic] in my sample)
  46. # [01:27] <Hixie> and n=3.5e9
  47. # [01:28] <Hixie> then the error is 6e6e-7
  48. # [01:29] <Hixie> which if n is, say, 650000, then that's about +/- 2000
  49. # [01:29] <Hixie> which is actually smaller than the error margin that my methodology introduces in and of itself, heh
  50. # [01:30] <Hixie> interesting
  51. # [01:30] <Hixie> (my numbers are obtained using some statistical estimators that have, in the case of this particular sample, an error margin of +/- 4000 or so)
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  54. # [01:44] <Philip`> I'm not sure how you're going from n=3.5e9 to n=650000
  55. # [01:45] <Hixie> er, s/n/p/ and s/650000/650000 div 3.5e9/
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  58. # [01:49] <Philip`> Did you miss the sqrt?
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  61. # [01:50] <Philip`> With n=3.5e9, p=0.0001878, then n*p*(1-p) =~ 650000, and 2*sqrt(n*p*(1-p)) =~ 1600
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  63. # [01:50] <Philip`> Ah, I think that about makes sense with what you said
  64. # [01:51] <Philip`> (There is an assumption somewhere that the population is infinite, so it might be necessary to be a bit careful if the sample size is a significant fraction of the actual population, but I have no idea how relevant that is)
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  66. # [01:54] * mpt is confused by the aspect ratio restriction for <img>
  67. # [01:55] <mpt> "If both [width and height] attributes are specified, then the ratio of the specified width to the specified height must be the same as the ratio of the logical width to the logical height in the image file."
  68. # [01:56] <mpt> Does that mean in <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu> we're doing something wrong? (pretending for the moment that that page is HTML 5)
  69. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: sorry i wasn't clear
  70. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: let me try again
  71. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: if i have N=3.5e9 (number of pages examined)
  72. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: and r=650000 (number of pages with an element <tr<>
  73. # [02:00] <Hixie> Philip`: then p=0.000186 ish
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  75. # [02:02] <Hixie> Philip`: and the error (95% confidence the real population mean r_real is within this much of r) is 2*sqrt(n*(r/n)*(1-r/n))
  76. # [02:02] <Hixie> right?
  77. # [02:02] <Hixie> which is about 2000 (to 1sf)
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  85. # [02:48] <Philip`> Hixie: That sounds highly plausible to me
  86. # [02:49] <Hixie> ok
  87. # [02:49] <Hixie> so that error is about half of the error that i get just from the statistical estimators that i use in getting my data
  88. # [02:52] <Hixie> btw i think one thing that's being missed in this input/usemap discussion is that the majority (all but three of the 50000+ that have been examined) of uses of input/usemap are either no-ops or actually result in _worse_ user experience in browsers that support usemap
  89. # [02:53] <Hixie> and that therefore browsers are better off not implementing it if they want to compete over their handling of existing pages
  90. # [02:54] <Philip`> They're not better off to a sufficiently significant extent that Mozilla or Opera have bothered changing their implementation because of it, so that doesn't seem like an especially important issue
  91. # [02:55] <Hixie> fair enough
  92. # [02:56] <Philip`> Oops, seems I responded to an old message of Rob Burns after he already said it was wrong...
  93. # [02:57] <Philip`> But I still don't understand "the image map areas should instead submit the form with the coordinates (again, there doesn't have to be a server-side to this; some use-cases do not require a server-side round-trip)" - how do you submit a form without a server side?
  94. # [02:57] <Hixie> don't ask me
  95. # [02:57] <Hixie> i don't have any idea what he's talking about
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  98. # [03:02] <Philip`> Maybe you could do an accessible email-based version of Where's Wally, so you have to find and click on him in the image and then it submits the coordinates to a mailto: link, and to be accessible it also has a client-side image map with an <area> per person in the image where the alt text is the name of the person and it submits the email form with the person's coordinates when you choose one
  99. # [03:03] * Philip` struggles to think of more useful examples
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  102. # [03:09] <Hixie> i have written a script that reads the mbox files for public-html, and scores each participant by giving them 1 point per e-mail sent and 1 point per e-mail that was a reply to their e-mail.
  103. # [03:10] <Philip`> Does that only count direct replies?
  104. # [03:10] <Hixie> yes
  105. # [03:10] <Hixie> it counts them via In-Reply-To headers
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  108. # [03:11] <mjs> I wonder4 who scores the highest?
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  110. # [03:12] <Philip`> I'd tend to assume most messages only get one or two replies, because all the annoyingly large conversations are annoyingly long rather than wide
  111. # [03:13] <Philip`> in which case the score would be mainly dependent on how many emails the particular individual sends, and not affected much by the replies
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  113. # [03:26] <Hixie> so i'm actually relatively surprised as to who scores the worst on this thing
  114. # [03:27] <Philip`> Are you assuming high scores are bad? :-)
  115. # [03:27] <Hixie> yes :-)
  116. # [03:28] <Philip`> Depending on who's at the top, you could say it shows who has blessed us most with their knowledge, experience and ideas
  117. # [03:29] <Hixie> the person at the top is mostly at the top because they have triggered so many replies
  118. # [03:31] <mjs> http://www.zeldman.com/2007/08/15/what-crisis/
  119. # [03:31] <mjs> who's got the high score? I gotta know
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  121. # [03:32] <Hixie> mjs: you
  122. # [03:33] <mjs> I'm not all that surprised, if it's mainly through triggering replies
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  124. # [03:33] <Hixie> i think the results would be very different if i only did the last month
  125. # [03:34] <mjs> well that's true
  126. # [03:35] <mjs> I've hardly sent any mail, let alone had lots of replies
  127. # [03:36] <Hixie> bbl
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  135. # [04:17] <mpt> Hixie, the definition of alt= for <area> is much vaguer than the definition of alt= for <img>
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  138. # [04:21] <mpt> Perhaps the former should reference the latter somehow
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  142. # [04:38] <Lachy> Hixie, what's my score in the email count?
  143. # [04:39] <Lachy> and what position do I get?
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  149. # [04:52] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/290
  150. # [04:54] <Lachy> 7th isn't too bad. I correct guessed who would get second, though I would have expected him to get first if mjs hadn't
  151. # [04:55] <mjs> wow, I'm the only one who elicited more responses than emails sent?
  152. # [04:55] <mjs> no, I guess not
  153. # [04:55] <mjs> misread chart at first
  154. # [04:55] <Lachy> it's a shame it doesn't distinguish between productive discussion and useless trolling
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  157. # [04:57] <mjs> regarding contribution value of the #2 entry on the list, I present this: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14945
  158. # [04:59] <mjs> (but maybe it's just a different guy with the same name?)
  159. # [04:59] <Lachy> Hixie, for alt text in "A key part of the content that has no textual alternative", the spec should probably try to emphasise more that alt text should be provided if possible
  160. # [05:00] <Lachy> "In such cases, the alt attribute must be omitted." should be reprhased to say "... may be omitted, but should be provided if at all possible" or something like that
  161. # [05:02] <Lachy> mjs: it's the same person, he posted about the same topic to public-html
  162. # [05:02] <Lachy> suggesting that XHTML5 should somehow more clearly specify XML parsing
  163. # [05:03] <Lachy> (though I didn't bother paying too much attention to it)
  164. # [05:05] <Lachy> oh, I understand Gregory's point about his photo album now! http://my.opera.com/oedipus/albums/showpic.dml?album=212490&picture=3302055
  165. # [05:06] <Lachy> he wasn't suggesting that "perception - photography - image interpretation - blindness" is good alt text, he was suggesting that the comments people have provided for him are good descriptions
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  167. # [05:09] <mjs> really the relevant alternative isn't good alt text vs no alt text
  168. # [05:09] <mjs> alt="" has always been allowed
  169. # [05:09] <mjs> the question is just whether leaving alt out entirely is in some cases better than alt=""
  170. # [05:10] <mpt> It's better than authoring tools producing automated alt="" for sticking-plaster compliance
  171. # [05:10] <mjs> yes, I think so too
  172. # [05:11] <mjs> but there's incentive effects both ways
  173. # [05:11] <mjs> the HTML4 way made it likely that images with no provided alternative text would be treated the same as decorative images, which is harmful to blind users or users of text-only browsers
  174. # [05:11] <mpt> For the same reason that good transcribers include "[inaudible]" in transcripts, instead of just omitting the words/phrases they didn't hear
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  176. # [05:12] <mjs> the (current draft) HTML5 way might do less to encourage thoughtful authors writing by hand to add good alt text
  177. # [05:12] <mjs> since the conformance checker won't remind them
  178. # [05:12] <mjs> that was one potential advantage of noalt
  179. # [05:12] <mjs> you could verify that all your images that lack alt text are doing so on purpose
  180. # [05:13] <mpt> ooh, noalt
  181. # [05:13] <mpt> that's a nifty idea
  182. # [05:13] <mpt> but then would authoring tools produce automated noalt...
  183. # [05:14] <mjs> presumably, yes
  184. # [05:14] <mjs> but that is better than them adding alt=""
  185. # [05:14] <mjs> and it makes it harder to forget to add alt accidentally when authoring by hand
  186. # [05:15] <mjs> I could see the argument either way
  187. # [05:15] <mpt> Maybe there could be an authoring-tool exception, like there is/was for <font>
  188. # [05:15] <mjs> ironically I think Gregory's image gallery shows a valid use case for omitted alt
  189. # [05:16] <mpt> Apologies if I'm unwittingly rehashing suggestions made in public-html@
  190. # [05:16] <mjs> I think this was mostly discussed on the whatwg list actually
  191. # [05:16] <mjs> I don't think the authoring tool exception is a good concept
  192. # [05:16] <mjs> and doesn't really work well for user-generated content embedded in a hand-authored dynamic page
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  194. # [05:17] <mpt> Whenever anyone says "user-generated content" I want to throw something
  195. # [05:17] <mpt> but anyway
  196. # [05:18] <mjs> if you have a better phrase to use for what I'm referring to I would be happy to use that instead
  197. # [05:18] <mjs> I mean to distinguish content created by casual end-users who are doing it incidentally, not professionally or as their primary goal
  198. # [05:19] <mpt> Well, part of the problem with it is that I don't know what you're referring to
  199. # [05:19] <mpt> Photos?
  200. # [05:19] <mpt> Weblog comments?
  201. # [05:19] <mjs> photos posted to a photo sharing site, weblog posts, comments on a review site like yelp...
  202. # [05:19] <mpt> Forums drizzled with emoticons?
  203. # [05:19] <mjs> email messages
  204. # [05:19] <mjs> web forums
  205. # [05:19] <mjs> IM messages
  206. # [05:19] <mpt> So what are you excluding?
  207. # [05:20] <mjs> profesionally developed web sites
  208. # [05:20] <mjs> I should have said "web forum comments"
  209. # [05:20] <mpt> If it's a hand-authored page, I'm not sure how the authoring tool exception kicks in at all
  210. # [05:20] <mpt> oh, unless it's a Weblog comment system that allows images?
  211. # [05:20] <mjs> I would distinguish the web forum itself ("profesionally developed" in some sense), from comments posted by users
  212. # [05:20] <mjs> right
  213. # [05:20] <mpt> but they usually don't anyway, to prevent CSRF
  214. # [05:21] <mjs> but photo sharing sites allow embedding images
  215. # [05:21] <mpt> Maybe "usually" is overstating it
  216. # [05:21] <mjs> and email programs
  217. # [05:21] <mpt> ok, so e-mail programs would use the authoring-tool exception
  218. # [05:21] <mpt> while photo sharing sites would use noalt
  219. # [05:22] <mjs> now I'm not sure what your proposal is
  220. # [05:22] <mpt> That the authoring-tool exception save authoring tools from having to use alt="" or noalt or whatever they think the best default is
  221. # [05:24] <mpt> so that the UA can tell whether any thought has been put into the alternate text
  222. # [05:25] <mjs> if noalt existed I think the right thing would be to treat it the same as missing alt
  223. # [05:25] <mjs> so I don't think that would buy anything
  224. # [05:25] <mjs> the question is just whether noalt is worth it
  225. # [05:25] <mpt> While a photo sharing site knows that the photos are the point of the site, and can therefore apply noalt to all the images.
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  261. # [08:33] <G0k> oy all
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  264. # [08:44] <G0k> so er...more questions about the server-side events thing
  265. # [08:46] <G0k> when dealing with boolean event attributes, should I follow the pattern specified for Cancelable and Bubbles (i.e. "No" is false but everything else is true) or should it treat "false" and "0" as false also?
  266. # [08:54] <Lachy> G0k: IIRC, the default cancelable and bubbles values are defined for each event in the DOM Events spec, and I think HTML5 gives default values for custom events (though I'd have to check the spec)
  267. # [08:54] <G0k> yeah i got that
  268. # [08:55] <G0k> i just mean how should i parse the fields
  269. # [08:55] <G0k> for example, for the MouseEvent interface
  270. # [08:55] <G0k> if i get, say
  271. # [08:55] <G0k> ctrlKey: false
  272. # [08:55] <Lachy> doesn't the spec define that?
  273. # [08:55] <G0k> well it says
  274. # [08:55] <G0k> "If the specified interface has an attribute that exactly matches the name of the field, and the value of the field can be converted (using the type conversions defined in ECMAScript) to the type of the attribute, then it must be used."
  275. # [08:55] <G0k> but that doesn't really make sense for booleans
  276. # [08:55] <G0k> i don't think any string in ECMAScript evaluates to false
  277. # [08:56] <Lachy> hmm. interesting
  278. # [08:56] <G0k> plus, that's inconsistent
  279. # [08:56] <G0k> "No" doesn't evaluate to false in ECMAScript
  280. # [08:57] <Lachy> you could send an email to one of the lists and ask
  281. # [08:57] <Lachy> it may be a bug in the spec
  282. # [08:58] <G0k> oki
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  288. # [10:06] * takkaria considers unsubscribing from public-html :/
  289. # [10:13] <G0k> what'd they do?
  290. # [10:14] <takkaria> just constant sniping and personal attacks and seemingly knee-jerk reactions
  291. # [10:14] <takkaria> to /everything/
  292. # [10:15] <G0k> yeah so fuck em. revolution up in here
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  301. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the score would illustrate the issue better if you divided it by # of days the person has been on the list. (yeah, I realize that developing the score script isn't your main activity)
  302. # [11:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: hehe, not a bad idea. time from first post to last post?
  303. # [11:29] <Hixie> mpt: see the recent large alt text revamp e-mail i bcc'ed you on
  304. # [11:29] <Hixie> so i'm thinking maybe the lack of an alt="" attribute should also be a sign of a "low quality" page, though maybe that would just make people set it to alt="". (empty)
  305. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  306. # [11:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: or time from first post to today
  307. # [11:31] * Joins: cplot (n=cplot@c-98-193-22-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  308. # [11:33] <G0k> should specify that not having an alt attribute means that the UA must not load any banner ads on that page
  309. # [11:34] <G0k> designers never fix anything until you mess with their money
  310. # [11:36] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@d83-176-150-220.cust.tele2.de)
  311. # [11:36] <G0k> i suppose it would just lead to people setting alt attributes like alt="asz89aj9g" but still
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  314. # [11:49] <Whiskey_M> G0K, trust me that would be even worse - also what if you have a page with no images on that aren't purely for display. Therefore they shouldn't have any alt
  315. # [11:49] <G0k> see I almost wonder if there should really be like two different tags
  316. # [11:50] * Whiskey_M would be intrigued by the stats of pages using primarily alt="" which is AFAIK pretty much a kick back against the measurement of automated accessibility checkers
  317. # [11:50] <G0k> an element for images with semantic meaning, then another element for those without
  318. # [11:50] <G0k> thus people who don't care could go on using img-no-alt for their purely display images
  319. # [11:51] <G0k> then people who cared could give use a new image element which absolutely needed the alt tag
  320. # [11:53] <G0k> er attribute
  321. # [11:53] <G0k> thing
  322. # [11:54] * Whiskey_M doesn't see what would necessarily be gained - off to a meeting now, but will be thinking about it
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  327. # [12:29] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/291
  328. # [12:30] <Hixie> lachy and i don't even appear on that chart
  329. # [12:31] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@RAR-21.f.dial.de.ignite.net)
  330. # [12:32] <Lachy> that aligns with my expectations better than the last one - it has expected winner!
  331. # [12:32] <Hixie> we come somewhat below the top 20
  332. # [12:32] <Hixie> 2.59 218 199 0.91 161 Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
  333. # [12:32] <Hixie> 2.50 23 24 1.04 19 John Boyer <boyerj@ca.ibm.com>
  334. # [12:32] <Hixie> 2.49 171 211 1.23 154 Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>
  335. # [12:32] <Hixie> 2.44 2 3 1.50 3 Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com>
  336. # [12:32] <Hixie> 2.36 188 191 1.02 161 Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
  337. # [12:32] <Hixie> 2.35 2 3 1.50 3 Geoffrey Sneddon <geoffers@gmail.com>
  338. # [12:33] <Lachy> how is the score calculated?
  339. # [12:34] <Hixie> (sent+recvd)/days
  340. # [12:34] <Hixie> more or less
  341. # [12:34] <Hixie> it's actually done by seconds
  342. # [12:35] <Hixie> if i merge tina's two accounts she drops off the top 20 too
  343. # [12:36] <Lachy> ok, so the score is the average number of emails sent per day
  344. # [12:37] <Hixie> right
  345. # [12:37] <Hixie> sent and received
  346. # [12:37] <Lachy> yeah
  347. # [12:38] <Lachy> so Robert sends 6.63 emails per day
  348. # [12:39] <Lachy> I wonder if there's some correlation between the number of posts sent+received per day and the quality of the post
  349. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks for the stats
  350. # [12:42] <Hixie> are philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk and excors@gmail.com the same person?
  351. # [12:42] <Hixie> or are those two different philips?
  352. # [12:43] <Lachy> Hixie: I think they're the same person, we're fairly sure there's only 2 Philip Taylors
  353. # [12:44] <Hixie> really? i thought there were three.
  354. # [12:46] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1 lists 2
  355. # [12:46] <Lachy> excors@gmail.com is Philip`
  356. # [12:46] <Hixie> ok
  357. # [12:46] <hsivonen> zaynar is Philip` too
  358. # [12:46] <Hixie> ok
  359. # [12:46] <Hixie> excellent
  360. # [12:46] <Lachy> @zaynor is the same as P.Taylor@Rhul.Ac.Uk
  361. # [12:46] <Hixie> no need to special case the philips in my script!
  362. # [12:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: I believe rhul and turnbridge (sp?) are one as well
  363. # [12:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: huh?
  364. # [12:47] <Hixie> wait, wait, you both just contradicted yourselves
  365. # [12:47] <Lachy> oh, maybe I'm mistaken
  366. # [12:47] <Lachy> let me check...
  367. # [12:47] <Hixie> i have:
  368. # [12:47] <Hixie> Philip TAYLOR <Philip-and-LeKhanh@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org>
  369. # [12:47] <Hixie> Philip Taylor (Webmaster) <P.Taylor@Rhul.Ac.Uk>
  370. # [12:47] <Hixie> Philip Taylor <excors@gmail.com>
  371. # [12:47] <Hixie> Philip Taylor <philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk>
  372. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: my belief is the the first two are one person and the second two are another person
  373. # [12:48] <Hixie> my script will turn those into three, collapsing the bottom two
  374. # [12:48] <Hixie> ok
  375. # [12:48] <Hixie> so i do need to special case them
  376. # [12:49] <Lachy> I thought there were only 3 email addresses for the Philips, so I assumed the @zaynar one had to be the same as the other
  377. # [12:50] <Lachy> Philip`: yt? Care to settle this mystery about the last 2 email addresses?
  378. # [12:51] <Philip`> The last two are me, and the first two are not me
  379. # [12:51] <Philip`> (I don't remember having sent to the list with any other email address too)
  380. # [12:55] * Quits: Ducki (i=Ducki@213-102-93-45.cust.tele2.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  381. # [12:56] <Lachy> Philip`: you have about 22 times by my count of my local archive
  382. # [12:57] <Lachy> oh, wait, I misread your last statement.
  383. # [12:57] <Philip`> I meant I don't remember ever using any other than those two
  384. # [12:58] <Lachy> yeah, I realise that now, I thought it said you didn't remember using the latter email address
  385. # [13:04] <Hixie> wow, a lot of people use mutliple addresses
  386. # [13:05] * Hixie adds generic name collapsing to this script
  387. # [13:06] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/291 updated
  388. # [13:06] * zcorpan_ has used zcorpan@hotmail and zcorpan@gmail on whatwg, and zcorpan@gmail and simonp@opera.com on public-html
  389. # [13:07] <Hixie> yeah my script collapses those all together now
  390. # [13:09] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("daimonji!")
  391. # [13:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: you have an admirable skill of staying out of the ratholes on public-html
  392. # [13:12] <Lachy> Hixie, can you plot the volume of email from each user over time on a graph?
  393. # [13:13] <Hixie> i could
  394. # [13:13] <Hixie> not gonna :-)
  395. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: thanks :)
  396. # [13:13] <Hixie> if you know perl i'm happy to send you my script and you can repurpose it
  397. # [13:14] <Lachy> dammit Hixie! I demand that you do my research for me! :-)
  398. # [13:14] <Lachy> unfortunately I don't know perl
  399. # [13:14] <Hixie> :-)
  400. # [13:15] <Philip`> Perl is easy to learn - it's just like Python without all the words
  401. # [13:15] <hsivonen> perl gives you a hangover. python doesn't
  402. # [13:16] <Hixie> perl is just misunderstood
  403. # [13:16] <Hixie> mostly because it's hard to understand, but still
  404. # [13:17] <hsivonen> by hangover I mean that the day after when one reads one's own perl code, one goes wtf
  405. # [13:27] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-145-188-203.range86-145.btcentralplus.com)
  406. # [13:28] <Hixie> btw spec is updated
  407. # [13:33] <Hixie> with new alt text advice
  408. # [13:38] <Lachy> Hixie: I think the new text balances the issue nicely now
  409. # [13:41] <Philip`> "Note that the following would be a very bad use of alternative text:" - why "very bad"? It doesn't really hurt much, except wasting a couple of seconds of someone's time when they listen to the image, so it only seems a little bit bad
  410. # [13:43] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-145-188-203.range86-145.btcentralplus.com)
  411. # [13:43] * Lachy sets up message filter to clearly identify the sensible Philip from the other one
  412. # [13:43] <zcorpan_> Hixie: how does missing alt now integrate with <figure> semantics in the fallback case?
  413. # [13:44] <Lachy> (Philip`: now messages from you get marked with a gold star in my inbox :-))
  414. # [13:45] <Lachy> Hixie: maybe s/very bad/redundant/ in that paragraph
  415. # [13:45] <Philip`> (Lachy: I feel very special)
  416. # [13:46] <Philip`> (though I remember I used to like shiny silver stars more than gold stars, at least when I was 5)
  417. # [13:47] * gsnedders tries to remember who Philip` is
  418. # [13:48] <gsnedders> which Philip is he?
  419. # [13:49] <Philip`> I'm hope that I'm the sensible one
  420. # [13:49] <Philip`> s/e/ing/
  421. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> the one who wrote the spec splitter, the 8000 tokenization tests, the tokenization diagrams, the canvas test suite
  422. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> and canvex
  423. # [13:50] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: yes, but on the mailing list, which? :P
  424. # [13:50] <gsnedders> the title case one?
  425. # [13:50] <Philip`> and three tokenisers :-)
  426. # [13:50] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: the other than Philip TAYLOR / Philip Taylor (Webmaster)
  427. # [13:50] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: yeah. that's what I thought.
  428. # [13:51] <gsnedders> silly common names…
  429. # [13:51] <hsivonen> use case for namespaces!
  430. # [13:51] * Quits: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@RAR-21.f.dial.de.ignite.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  431. # [13:51] <Lachy> Philip`: sorry, Thunderbird only gives me gold stars
  432. # [13:51] <Hixie> Lachy/zcorpan_: send mail, it's way past my bed time
  433. # [13:51] <Hixie> nn
  434. # [13:52] <Lachy> Hixie: you gonna wake up for the telcon?
  435. # [13:56] <Lachy> hsivonen: they're email addresses are the namespaces. The problem is they both break compatibility by using 2 each, and thus expect each reader to be aware of both!
  436. # [13:57] <Philip`> Readers should just apply message analysis heuristics to determine which addresses are equivalent
  437. # [13:58] <Lachy> that's what I did, it's just confusing because it takes reading the first few sentences to know
  438. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's how I figured there are two persons
  439. # [13:58] <zcorpan_> oops, perhaps i should have changed the subject line for that email... oh well
  440. # [13:58] <Philip`> Also, if you see two of the email addresses replying to each other, they're either distinct people or are one person who is crazy
  441. # [13:59] <Philip`> Anyway, I don't have any problem telling who each message came from :-p
  442. # [14:00] <Lachy> what about in the case of Robert Burns, who frequently responds to himself from the same email address?
  443. # [14:00] <Lachy> zcorpan_: I don't understand the question in your email
  444. # [14:01] <zcorpan_> Lachy: "If the embedded content cannot be used, then, for the purposes of establishing what the figure element represents:"
  445. # [14:02] <Philip`> Hmm, I meant (but didn't say) "replying" as in "responding and discussing an issue from different sides", rather than as in just having Reply-To headers that might be followup messages instead of responses
  446. # [14:04] <zcorpan_> Lachy: the figure section assumes that there will be fallback content (which might be empty), but no alt means that there is no fallback content
  447. # [14:04] <Lachy> yeah, I just read that section
  448. # [14:06] <Philip`> (That reduces to the message analysis heuristics case again, so I guess it's not much help)
  449. # [14:08] <zcorpan_> thinking about it, <embed>, <video> and <audio> don't have fallback content either
  450. # [14:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  454. # [15:22] <zcorpan_> Philip`: do you have any suggestions for how to create lots of testcases for serializing html fragments? i already have a framework to run test cases, now i just need to create them
  455. # [15:26] <zcorpan_> Philip`: the format looks like http://simon.html5.org/temp/zon/tests.dat
  456. # [15:27] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@ne.keryx.se)
  457. # [15:27] <Philip`> The way I did it with the tokeniser was to create a load of short (mostly 1 character) strings, run the tokeniser algorithm on all of them, then remove the ones that were redundant (i.e. resulted in exactly the same tokeniser state), then made a load more slightly-longer strings by appending short strings to each of the ones from the previous stage
  458. # [15:27] <Philip`> ...and then repeated until the strings were sufficiently long that they covered every tokeniser state
  459. # [15:28] <Philip`> (and then did another half-step so that it (almost) covered every transition out of every state)
  460. # [15:28] <zcorpan_> aha. interesting
  461. # [15:28] * Joins: [1]markp (n=markp@adsl-221-112-88.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  462. # [15:29] <Philip`> That requires the ability to run the tokeniser algorithm and see what state it ends up in - I have no idea if you can do the same with HTML serialisation
  463. # [15:33] <Philip`> (Also, it's only really testing that specific implementation of the algorithm - that works alright for the tokeniser since everyone implements it the same way, but it doesn't work in more general cases)
  464. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> hmm, the algorithm doesn't require any specific order for attributes
  465. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> which might be good for performance optimazation but not good for writing test cases
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  470. # [16:04] <hsivonen> we are developing a *Web* spec, right? how are local drives part of the Web?
  471. # [16:06] <Philip`> I've seen quite a few file:/// links on web pages, though I'm not sure if that counts
  472. # [16:06] <Lachy> hsivonen: Google should just index file:// URIs too, and then we could survey local hard drives too ;-)
  473. # [16:07] <Lachy> we could survey intranets too. I'm sure there are plenty that don't have enough security and would let a bot in to fetch the pages
  474. # [16:07] <Philip`> <a href="file:///etc/passwd">SomeUniqueWord</a> then search Google and view the cached copy to see Googlebot's passwords
  475. # [16:08] <Lachy> LOL
  476. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> Philip`: actually, Support Existing Content applies to <input usemap>, it's just that in order to support existing content you have to remove support for the feature... :)
  477. # [16:14] <Philip`> I'm not really convinced by that as a reason, since the number of affected pages seems to be small enough that Mozilla and Opera haven't bothered removing the feature
  478. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> yet
  479. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> we didn't know it was a problem in supporting it
  480. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> :)
  481. # [16:16] <zcorpan_> but it's not critical
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  484. # [16:17] <Lachy> I like Rob's claim that there were no examples presented that break! :-)
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  486. # [16:18] <Lachy> in fact, if it were to be implemented as he imagines, it would break any of the sites that use <input usemap> as a hyperlink image map (though, they should use <img> anyway)
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  489. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> i thought Hixie specifically tried to find valid uses of <input usemap>, and filtered out obvious misuse
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  496. # [16:31] <Lachy> zcorpan_: it depends on your definition of misuse. Hixie filtered out areas with no href on the grounds that it's completely useless in all existing UAs, whereas Rob was to include those and exlude those with href, because that's how his imaginary implementation works
  497. # [16:32] <Lachy> s/was/wants/
  498. # [16:33] <Lachy> but what Rob should be looking for, is pages that fulfil the use case using alternative techniques. But he's refusing to do any work
  499. # [16:34] <zcorpan_> right
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  501. # [16:49] * Philip` wonders when to give up
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  503. # [16:59] <Lachy> Philip`: just give up now. I have. He's clearly not interested in resolving the use case issue, and there's no point discussing it any further
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  509. # [17:51] <Lachy> can anyone make sense of William Loughborough's recent post in the baby steps thread?
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  511. # [17:56] <hober> It didn't make the slightest bit of sense to me.
  512. # [18:00] <Philip`> I have problems parsing his first sentence-paragraph
  513. # [18:00] <Lachy> I just carefully re-read it, looking up obscure words I'd never seen before like 'engendered' and 'deleterious', he seems to be talking about the harm of eliminating the alt attribute and replacing it with something else
  514. # [18:00] <Philip`> (I can't find any way to read it that makes grammatical sense)
  515. # [18:01] <Lachy> nor can I. I mostly did a sort of heuristic analysis and constructed the meaning from a few key words
  516. # [18:02] <hsivonen> it is totally counter-productive that people dramaticize making the alt attribute omissible in some cases as the removal of the possibility to use the attribute
  517. # [18:02] <Philip`> Seems easier to just ignore it :-)
  518. # [18:02] <Philip`> (though maybe less fun, depending on what kind of fun you like having)
  519. # [18:04] <Lachy> it's too stressful to deal with misunderstandings. If someone wants to jump to conclusions about us dropping the alt attribute, good for them. We know we're not, we're trying to improve it as a whole
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  523. # [18:06] <Philip`> It seems the intention is to remove bad features, which nobody really minds (like all the presentational features, and frames, and @name, and script@charset, etc), but some accessibility features are bad features, and people focus on the fact that they're accessibility features rather than that they're bad features
  524. # [18:08] <Lachy> that's because all accessibility features are automatically *good*, regardless of how ineffective they are
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  528. # [18:19] <Lachy> I've been thinking it might be a good idea to explain in the spec that alt text is dependent upon the context in which it's used, rather than just the image itself.
  529. # [18:19] <Lachy> so it's possible for the same image to be used in different contexts, and have completely different alt text
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  531. # [18:20] <mpt> oh yes
  532. # [18:20] * Lachy will send mail
  533. # [18:20] <mpt> I tried to explain that to the Wikipedia developers once
  534. # [18:20] * Lachy wonders whether I should send to public-html or whatwg?
  535. # [18:20] <mpt> They were wondering if the alt text for an image could be kept on the image's page
  536. # [18:20] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/zon/001.htm -- safari does surprisingly well
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  539. # [18:22] <Lachy> it would be clearer if you listed the tests that pass as well. I looked and thought it had failed
  540. # [18:22] <Lachy> or gave some indication about how many tests there are and how many it passed, listing the failed ones below
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  542. # [18:25] <Lachy> mpt: do you know of an example I could list in my email?
  543. # [18:25] <Philip`> http://som.uthscsa.edu/ is weird - it looks like it's really trying to sensibly use <td usemap>, but that doesn't work at all in any browser I've tried
  544. # [18:26] <Philip`> I guess they must have started with a <img usemap> and then changed it to a <td background=... usemap>
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  548. # [18:29] <zcorpan_> Lachy: hmm... is that good enough? :)
  549. # [18:31] <Lachy> oh I see it now. I didn't notice it at first, cause it was just below the bottom of the viewport in Firefox
  550. # [18:32] <mpt> Lachy, unfortunately not, I couldn't find one at the time
  551. # [18:32] <Lachy> could you add a summary that says "Passed: 20, Failed 5" (or equivalent)
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  553. # [18:32] <mpt> Lachy, however, Wikipedia's "This image is used in these articles:" feature might be useful
  554. # [18:33] <zcorpan_> Lachy: now have "Finished processing. 3 of 25 tests passed."
  555. # [18:33] <Lachy> yeah, that's good
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  557. # [18:37] <Philip`> I can't find any real examples, but I can imagine a page that has a fancy logo in the header (alt text being the textual part of it, like the organisation name), where the page is about the history of the organisation and includes images of various logos that it has had (including the same one it's currently using in its header, with alt text being a description of its appearance)
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  560. # [18:42] <Lachy> like Google's list of special event logos?
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  562. # [18:42] <Lachy> good example!
  563. # [18:42] <Lachy> http://www.google.com/holidaylogos.html
  564. # [18:43] <gsnedders> what's worse to come across: the HTML WG, or two hunters on legendary when the rest of the UNSC forces are dead?
  565. # [18:43] <gsnedders> (and when you're out of practice)
  566. # [18:43] <Lachy> what's UNSC?
  567. # [18:44] <Lachy> and what does "two hunters on legendary" mean?
  568. # [18:44] <gsnedders> Halo.
  569. # [18:44] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/stickers.html - top-left logo should presumably have alt="Google", other logos should perhaps have "Small Google logo on white background" so people who want to use it on their own site can find the appropriate one
  570. # [18:45] <Lachy> I'll include both examples
  571. # [18:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Space_Command and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant_%28Halo%29#Hunters
  572. # [18:45] <Lachy> although, perrhaps not, if the table included row headers that describeed the white, grey and black alternatives
  573. # [18:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: and legendary is the hardest difficulty in Halo (and Marathon, IIRC)
  574. # [18:45] <Philip`> The holiday logos might be interesting to consider when they're used on the main search page - the alt text should probably still just say "Google", but it'd be nice to have a longdesc or something so people can find out more about the particular image if they're interested
  575. # [18:46] <Lachy> indeed, it should say google, but they use the alt text given in that page
  576. # [18:46] <Lachy> it should have the extra info in the title attributwe
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  582. # [19:16] <Philip`> Hmm, dangerously close to getting a "+1" on public-html...
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  599. # [20:36] * Philip` wonders what the OOXML namespaces are
  600. # [20:37] <Philip`> The five hundred page Primer document is full of examples like '<revisions xmlns="..." xmlns:r="...">' and I can't find anywhere saying what you actually write in place of '...'
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  603. # [20:50] <Philip`> Oh, the five thousand page specification does mention the namespaces in various places, so that's alright
  604. # [20:51] <Lachy> Philip`: did you download the entire 5000 page spec?
  605. # [20:51] <G0k> well is "..." a valid namespace?
  606. # [20:52] <Lachy> G0k: no, it needs to be a URI
  607. # [20:52] <Lachy> (though, in practice, "..." would work since consumers simply do string comparison. They never need to resolve the URI
  608. # [20:53] <Philip`> Lachy: It's only 33MB
  609. # [20:54] <Lachy> ok
  610. # [20:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: true for just about any API except XOM
  611. # [20:54] <Lachy> what does XOM do specially?
  612. # [20:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: XOM is designed to barf if the string does not look like a URI
  613. # [20:55] <Philip`> "<w:r><w:t>This sentence needs to be long enough to cause some kind of line br</w:t><w:softHyphen/><w:t>eaking.</w:t></w:r>" - isn't there, like, a Unicode character for soft hyphens?
  614. # [20:55] <Lachy> what's its criteria for looking like a URI?
  615. # [20:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: dunno. I haven't checked
  616. # [20:56] <Philip`> (Their examples of line-breaking are all rather broken because the PDF page width is wider than their "long enough" sentences so it doesn't actually demonstrate any line-breaking)
  617. # [20:59] <zcorpan_> Philip`: there is, U+00AD
  618. # [21:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: https://xom.dev.java.net/source/browse/xom/src/nu/xom/URIUtil.java?rev=1.26&view=markup
  619. # [21:00] <G0k> http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/images/OpenXMLSchemas3.pdf
  620. # [21:00] * Philip` wonders why they use the term "high ANSI" for all Unicode characters that are not ASCII, "complex script" or "East Asian"
  621. # [21:00] <G0k> is that list of namespaces at the end what you're looking for?
  622. # [21:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: doesn't appear to be comprehensive
  623. # [21:00] <Lachy> hsivonen: thanks
  624. # [21:01] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I guess the more relevant question is, why <w:softHyphen/> instead of &#xAD;?
  625. # [21:02] <Philip`> G0k: Ah, thanks, looks like it is
  626. # [21:04] <zcorpan_> Philip`: &#xAD; doesn't have enough angle brackets? :)
  627. # [21:05] <G0k> think we should just remove all non-tag stuff from our formats
  628. # [21:06] <G0k> <word value="hello"/><comma /><space /> <word value="world"/>
  629. # [21:07] <Philip`> It's not like they're that fond of angle brackets - they use one tag with a comma-separated lists of font names in an attribute, instead of something properly XMLish like <fonts><font name="1"/><font name="2"/></fonts>
  630. # [21:09] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
  631. # [21:09] <hsivonen> does that look like something that could be announced?
  632. # [21:10] <hsivonen> nope
  633. # [21:10] <Philip`> ODF says to use Unicode characters for soft/non-breaking hyphens
  634. # [21:10] <Philip`> but it does have a <text:tab/> element
  635. # [21:10] <Philip`> Oh, it also has <text:s/> for a space character
  636. # [21:10] <Philip`> (and <text:s text:c="42"/> for multiple space characters)
  637. # [21:11] * hsivonen fixed the download link
  638. # [21:12] <Philip`> I guess XML isn't so great at marking up text documents when you want to have complex typography like whitespace
  639. # [21:13] <hendry> is there some spec that specifies img {display none;} shouldn't download the image?
  640. # [21:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/apidocs/nu/validator/htmlparser/sax/HtmlParser.html says "Version: $Id$" which doesn't sound terribly useful
  641. # [21:14] <Philip`> hendry: I believe HTML5 says they must download the image
  642. # [21:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: hmm. template dating from CVS days. how do I do -kkv with Subclipse?
  643. # [21:15] <Philip`> (or at least it says they must download the image when the image element is created, regardless of whether it's invisible via CSS)
  644. # [21:15] <Philip`> (but Opera doesn't do that, if I remember correctly)
  645. # [21:16] <Philip`> hsivonen: I have no idea with Subclipse, but you'd have to set the file's "svn:keywords" property to "Id" (for each affected file)
  646. # [21:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  647. # [21:17] <hendry> Philip`: {display none;} seems to be a strategy for not downloading imgs on network expensive environments like handhelds/mobiles
  648. # [21:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: Is htmlparser-1.0.zip meant to contain a __MACOSX directory containing only hidden files?
  649. # [21:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: artifact of OSX
  650. # [21:18] <Philip`> I guessed that from the name ;-)
  651. # [21:18] <Philip`> (but have no idea what it's containing)
  652. # [21:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: HFS resource fork and metadata emulation cruft
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  654. # [21:19] <Philip`> hendry: Do you know if browser other than Opera acts that way?
  655. # [21:19] <Philip`> *if any browser
  656. # [21:23] <hendry> Philip`: no, but I think it's a good idea if certain imgs can be marked not to download for the "@media handheld"
  657. # [21:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: The XSLT4HTML5 example appears to run correctly, so that seems good :-)
  658. # [21:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: good
  659. # [21:24] <hsivonen> proof by implementation that XSLT can be used with HTML5
  660. # [21:27] * Philip` tries sorting the HTML5 spec
  661. # [21:27] <Philip`> "Exception in thread "main" org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Start tag ?h1? has a non-NCName name." - oh, that didn't work :-(
  662. # [21:28] <hsivonen> whoa
  663. # [21:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  664. # [21:29] <hendry> """When the src attribute is set, the user agent must immediately begin to download the specified resource, unless the user agent cannot support images, or its support for images has been disabled."""
  665. # [21:31] <hendry> its support for images has been disabled. == img {display none;} ??
  666. # [21:32] <hsivonen> forgot the Digit production...
  667. # [21:32] <takkaria> hendry: no, as in the user has told the browser to not display images
  668. # [21:32] <takkaria> setting an image to display:none does not amount to diabling image support
  669. # [21:32] <takkaria> since e.g. alt text isn't displayed
  670. # [21:32] <hendry> that's really binary when it comes to images.
  671. # [21:33] <hendry> though I guess it could prevent odd things happening.
  672. # [21:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: fixed
  673. # [21:39] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@22.80-203-71.nextgentel.com)
  674. # [21:39] <Philip`> "Exception in thread "main" org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: This document is not mappable to XML 1.0 without data loss to ?--? in a comment."
  675. # [21:39] <Philip`> (I assume that's intentional)
  676. # [21:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: that is correct, isn't it
  677. # [21:43] <Philip`> Hmm... Your validator complains about it on line 41550, column 5
  678. # [21:43] <Philip`> which is
  679. # [21:43] <Philip`> <!-- XXX alt="": Define that either the src="" is shown (as an image)
  680. # [21:43] <Philip`> or the alt="" is shown (inline) but should not ever have both at
  681. # [21:43] <Philip`> once. -->
  682. # [21:43] <Philip`> I'm not quite sure where the "Consecutive hyphens did not terminate a comment." comes from in that section
  683. # [21:43] <Philip`> Oh
  684. # [21:43] <Philip`> There's a <!-- just before that
  685. # [21:44] <hsivonen> whew
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  687. # [21:45] <Philip`> If I fix that, it all seems to work correctly
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  690. # [21:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  692. # [21:49] <Philip`> If I pass a load of arbitrary HTML through it, I get "Exception in thread "main" org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Attribute name ?type"block"? is not an NCName." which seems entirely true
  693. # [21:53] * Philip` can't think of any other easy ways to try to break it
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  718. # [23:59] * tndH is really fed up of hearing the phrase "fight the good fight" in a web standards context
  719. # [23:59] <G0k> yeah we gotta fight dirty
  720. # [23:59] <gavin_> we need to fight the good fight and get rid of that phrase
  721. # Session Close: Fri Aug 17 00:00:00 2007

The end :)