/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 17 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Philip`> We could all be friends and stop fighting
  4. # [00:01] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-250-38.dsl.pipex.com)
  5. # [00:01] <G0k> what's the fun in that?
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> Well, maybe we could just act like we're friends, which leaves open the opportunity for backstabbing people when they're not careful
  7. # [00:02] <G0k> aha excellent
  8. # [00:03] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-72b026136c43f443) ("The computer fell asleep")
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  10. # [00:08] * othermaciej is now known as om_afk
  11. # [00:11] <karlUshi> 1. You don't talk about fight club.
  12. # [00:11] <karlUshi> 2. You don't talk about fight club.
  13. # [00:12] * Philip` has probably been playing Defcon too much, where the only reason you ever ally with someone is so you can drop nukes on them from behind when they are busy elsewhere
  14. # [00:13] <Hixie> i'm amused that none of the people discussing the KDE example in the spec have noticed that i didn't make it up
  15. # [00:13] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  16. # [00:13] <Hixie> it's lifted straight from wikipedia
  17. # [00:14] <takkaria> Hixie: you're missing an "attribute" in the new img text for the no-alt section: "In such cases, the alt attribute may be omitted, but the alt should be included"
  18. # [00:14] * Quits: om_afk (n=othermac@17.255.106.86)
  19. # [00:15] <G0k> uh. "may be omitted, but should be include" isn't that like...repetitive?
  20. # [00:17] <G0k> not that there's anything wrong with that
  21. # [00:17] <Hixie> takkaria: fixed, thanks
  22. # [00:18] <Hixie> G0k: in this case, the words "may" and "should" have very specific meaning that make this contrived phrasing useful
  23. # [00:18] <G0k> fair enough
  24. # [00:19] <G0k> Hixie: not to bug but did you get my other note on event-source stuff?
  25. # [00:21] <Hixie> yeah, my mail server is having issues and i can't send my reply
  26. # [00:21] <Hixie> but it's written
  27. # [00:21] <G0k> neato
  28. # [00:23] <G0k> sorry to keep bugging about that...i have an implementation that i don't want to commit until it's pretty
  29. # [00:23] <Hixie> ah
  30. # [00:23] <Hixie> ok
  31. # [00:23] <Hixie> coo
  32. # [00:23] <Hixie> l
  33. # [00:23] <G0k> don't want to start of broken
  34. # [00:23] <G0k> *off
  35. # [00:24] * Quits: grimboy_uk (n=grimboy@85-211-251-31.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  36. # [00:25] <zcorpan_> was it good ideas and bad code that was successful in building communities? :)
  37. # [00:28] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-188.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  38. # [00:35] <Hixie> the people working on the html5 status thing are charlvn and zcorpan_ right?
  39. # [00:38] <zcorpan_> yeah
  40. # [00:38] <zcorpan_> though i haven't done anything on that for quite some time now
  41. # [00:39] <zcorpan_> charlvn had set up some php backend iirc
  42. # [00:39] <gsnedders> ergh. PHP is horrid.
  43. # [00:39] <zcorpan_> but i don't know what is supposed to be passed on to the php script
  44. # [00:40] <gsnedders> (sorry, I've just been paid to do two weeks of work in PHP)
  45. # [00:40] <G0k> php is the VB of the web generation
  46. # [00:40] <Philip`> Writing CGI scripts in C is fun
  47. # [00:41] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/reflect.cgi?%3Cblink%3EHello%20world - I don't know if I should worry that it's the ultimate XSS hole
  48. # [00:42] <G0k> heh
  49. # [00:42] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yeah i need to find someone to take the ball on that and run with it
  50. # [00:43] <zcorpan_> yep, would be good
  51. # [00:43] <G0k> what's the status thing supposed to do?
  52. # [00:43] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-9b06f9e9c1a1a271) ("The computer fell asleep")
  53. # [00:44] <zcorpan_> mark sections as being "work in progress", etc
  54. # [00:45] <Philip`> Could any of it be rolled into the spec-splitter script, or does it all need to work in the single-page version too?
  55. # [00:46] <zcorpan_> dunno
  56. # [00:47] <zcorpan_> i think right now only the interface to update the markers is actually missing
  57. # [00:49] <Hixie> yeah i really want something that i can just have as a floating toolbar over the spec itself that i can just click on a section and then say "this is stable" or "known issue here" and include links to feedback (like blogs) that i have to deal with, as well as linking to test cases and listing what implementations support a particular section, etc
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  59. # [00:51] <G0k> would be really cool if it like..scanned the mailing lists and automagically added links to messages which quoted sections
  60. # [00:51] <G0k> how crrrazy would that be?
  61. # [00:53] <Philip`> That doesn't sound incredibly crazy
  62. # [00:53] <Philip`> at least if "quoted sections" means "posted a link to a section", rather than quoting the actual content
  63. # [00:53] <G0k> sure that
  64. # [00:54] * Philip` already has a script that matches up quoted bits of the spec within a paragraph, though
  65. # [00:54] <Philip`> (to generate the annotations for http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/spec.html )
  66. # [00:56] <Hixie> i'd be happy to have cray cool stuff too, but i recommend starting small :-)
  67. # [00:57] * Philip` needs to get around to finishing rejigging the spec-splitter at some point...
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  74. # [02:07] <G0k> check it out all http://thefridgeowl.com/stuff/domeventtest/test01.html
  75. # [02:07] <G0k> server side event unit test thing
  76. # [02:08] <G0k> anyone with a recent copy of opera?
  77. # [02:12] <Philip`> "Recent" like 9.22, or like 9.5?
  78. # [02:12] <G0k> like..last 6 months i guess
  79. # [02:13] <Philip`> "Statement on line 50: Type mismatch (usually a non-object value used where an object is required)"
  80. # [02:13] <G0k> uh. of which file?
  81. # [02:14] <Philip`> (in 9.22, which is almost the most recent public one)
  82. # [02:14] <Philip`> Line 50 of linked script http://thefridgeowl.com/stuff/domeventtest/test01.js
  83. # [02:14] <Philip`> listener.addEventSource("test01.php");
  84. # [02:14] <G0k> so do any of the Waiting fields turn to "Passed" ?
  85. # [02:14] <colione> three
  86. # [02:14] <colione> mouseover MouseEvent Passed
  87. # [02:14] <colione> mousemove MouseEvent Passed
  88. # [02:14] <colione> mouseout MouseEvent Passed
  89. # [02:15] <Philip`> They all say "Waiting" for me
  90. # [02:15] <Philip`> Oh, now those three say "Passed"
  91. # [02:15] <colione> Opera 9.22.3687 Mac Os X
  92. # [02:16] <G0k> oh heh
  93. # [02:16] <Philip`> They seem to go to "Passed" when I move my mouse over a bit just off the top-right corner of the table
  94. # [02:16] <G0k> because when you move your mouse over the thing
  95. # [02:16] <G0k> yeah
  96. # [02:16] <Philip`> Oh, I mean top rather than top-right
  97. # [02:16] <G0k> hm. so they don't seem to support the addEventListener method
  98. # [02:17] <G0k> lemme try the event-source tag
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  100. # [02:18] <colione> same result in latest webkit
  101. # [02:18] <G0k> yeah i haven't checked my webkit implementation in yet. :)
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  106. # [02:32] <G0k> wow well
  107. # [02:32] <G0k> http://thefridgeowl.com/stuff/domeventtest/test02.html
  108. # [02:32] <G0k> it does do a great job making opera leak memory anyway
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  112. # [02:39] <G0k> finally got opera working...seems to dislike the divx plugin a lot
  113. # [02:39] <G0k> well if anyone wants to play with it http://thefridgeowl.com/stuff/domeventtest/test02.html now kinda works on opera 9.2.whatever
  114. # [02:40] <G0k> some things work some don't
  115. # [02:40] <G0k> dunno who's at fault for the nonworking ones
  116. # [02:40] <Philip`> I get some combination of "Passed", "Waiting" and "Not a (...)Event" on testf02.html
  117. # [02:41] <Philip`> Uh, test02.html
  118. # [02:41] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-247-205.dsl.pipex.com)
  119. # [02:41] <G0k> well. they seem to support some and not support others
  120. # [02:41] <G0k> and/or my tests are bad
  121. # [02:41] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  122. # [02:43] <Philip`> and/or the spec is bad
  123. # [02:44] <G0k> well that's almost undeniable. :)
  124. # [02:45] <G0k> my tests are particularly biased, since i kinda invented them to test my webkit implementation
  125. # [02:46] <Philip`> Opera's implementation is fairly old and untested, so I wouldn't expect it to be a good approximation of correctness. I've got no idea if they've made any improvements to this stuff for v9.5, though
  126. # [02:47] <G0k> is there a 9.5 public beta?
  127. # [02:47] <Philip`> Not yet
  128. # [02:47] <Philip`> The only date I've heard is "soon", for the past few months :-)
  129. # [02:48] <G0k> hm. i know there was a patch for an implementation in mozilla at some point too
  130. # [02:48] <G0k> but it was never accepted
  131. # [02:48] <G0k> kinda curious how that was implemented too
  132. # [02:50] <colione> i know that zcorpan_ has a copy of opera 9.5 *tries to draw his attention to irc*
  133. # [02:50] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338583
  134. # [02:51] <zcorpan_> someone want me to test something in kestrel? :)
  135. # [02:52] <G0k> http://thefridgeowl.com/stuff/domeventtest/test02.html
  136. # [02:52] <colione> :D
  137. # [02:52] <Philip`> zcorpan_: You could save a lot of effort if you accidentally sent an email to the WHATWG list with the Kestrel installer attached
  138. # [02:52] <zcorpan_> 10 passed, 7 failed, the rest are waiting
  139. # [02:52] <zcorpan_> Philip`: ha
  140. # [02:53] <G0k> k so doesn't look like any progress from 9.2
  141. # [02:53] <G0k> zcorpan_: what about http://thefridgeowl.com/stuff/domeventtest/test01.html ?
  142. # [02:53] <colione> hmm 11 past in 9.22
  143. # [02:53] <colione> passed*
  144. # [02:53] <G0k> heh uhoh
  145. # [02:54] <G0k> to be honest, my mechanism for type checking an event is really pathetic
  146. # [02:54] <Philip`> In what way?
  147. # [02:54] <G0k> i check to see if "event" is a XXXEvent by seeing if event.initXXXEvent is defined
  148. # [02:54] <Philip`> Ah
  149. # [02:54] <zcorpan_> G0k: 9 passed, 7 failed
  150. # [02:55] <G0k> zcorpan_: for test01?
  151. # [02:55] <zcorpan_> G0k: yes
  152. # [02:55] <G0k> ah neato so the addEventSource thing is in kestrel. thanks.
  153. # [02:55] <Philip`> Maybe you could do something like Object.prototype.toString(event) and see if it's called "[object XXXEvent]"
  154. # [02:58] <G0k> ah
  155. # [02:59] <G0k> alright well all those that were previously failing in opera now aren't
  156. # [03:00] <G0k> but they're not getting called either
  157. # [03:00] <G0k> i mean
  158. # [03:00] <G0k> the ones that weren't getting called
  159. # [03:00] <G0k> still are not
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  161. # [03:02] <Philip`> "if (Object.prototype.toString(event) == interfaceName) { passed = false; ..." - that doesn't make sense
  162. # [03:03] <Philip`> It should be "if (... != "[object "+interfaceName+"]") ...", I think
  163. # [03:03] <G0k> well. it's returning just the class name
  164. # [03:03] <G0k> in both webkit and opera
  165. # [03:04] <Philip`> But you're setting passed to false if the value is equal to the expected value
  166. # [03:04] <Philip`> when it should be the other way around
  167. # [03:04] <G0k> oh craps
  168. # [03:04] <G0k> wow
  169. # [03:05] <Philip`> Also, I was wrong anyway
  170. # [03:05] <Philip`> It should be Object.prototype.toString.call(event)
  171. # [03:05] <Philip`> else you'll always get "[object Object]"
  172. # [03:05] <Philip`> Also this assumes the objects have the same type as the interface, rather than a subclass, and I don't know if that's valid
  173. # [03:08] <G0k> well i think the server side event spec currently explicitly says which class the events need to be
  174. # [03:09] <G0k> but yeah i mean i suppose it would still be valid if it were a subclass of that class
  175. # [03:11] <G0k> man javascript is really in need of "does this implement some interface" function
  176. # [03:14] <zcorpan_> foo.constructor ?
  177. # [03:15] <G0k> well for instance
  178. # [03:16] <G0k> Opera seems to use the KeyEvent prototype everywhere i would expect a KeyboardEvent prototype
  179. # [03:16] <zcorpan_> hm
  180. # [03:16] <G0k> which...i now notice isn't in dom 3. heh
  181. # [03:17] <zcorpan_> anyway... well beond bedtime for me
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  206. # [06:38] <Hixie> "Niether Hixe nor Philip looked for use of <input usemap> . Hixie looked for misuse (or esoteric use) of <input usemap>."
  207. # [06:38] <Hixie> i thought i had specifically looked for _valid_ cases...
  208. # [06:38] <Hixie> i wonder what rob is basing that on
  209. # [06:39] <G0k> good god is this still being argued?
  210. # [06:40] <G0k> is there seriously a legitimate use for image maps at all nowadays?
  211. # [06:42] <Hixie> i dunno i'm not entering this discussion any more
  212. # [06:42] <G0k> deprecate with extreme prejudice!
  213. # [06:43] <Lachy> Hixie, Rob is looking for usage that matches the way he imagines <input usemap> should work, not the way it has ever been defined or implemented
  214. # [06:44] <Lachy> and thus, he rejects any observation of <input usemap> on the basis that what he's looking for automatically can't exist
  215. # [06:49] <Hixie> anyone tried explaining the whole thing about how scientific research and such is all about looking at what actually is there, and not what you're expecting?
  216. # [06:51] <Lachy> I think he misses the point of the whole observation stage. I think he wants to start directly with some hypothesis developed without any observation at all and then test it
  217. # [06:52] <Lachy> I don't think he understands that a hypothesis should be developed to try and explain your observations, when then gets tested and refined
  218. # [06:55] <Lachy> maybe someone needs to explain that the statistics he's objecting to so much are used as a rough guide only. The more important information is obtained from looking at how and why something gets used, which is what our decisions are based on
  219. # [06:55] * Hixie shrugs
  220. # [06:57] <G0k> maybe it should be decided by a duel.
  221. # [06:58] <Hixie> on a more positive note, i do like how much the various studies correlate
  222. # [06:59] <G0k> anyone know who operates http://validator.nu/ ?
  223. # [07:03] <Hixie> hsivonen
  224. # [07:03] * karlUshi would prefer that people do not use "scientific research" to justify, specifically when things are not really done that way. :) Or at least that there are many ways of doing scientific research.
  225. # [07:04] * karlUshi has the feeling that people are mixing experimental research with scientific research. :)
  226. # [07:06] <Lachy> karlUshi, observation and experementation is part of the whole scientific process, so I don't understand what you mean
  227. # [07:07] <karlUshi> Lachy: My whole academic background is… scientific research :)))
  228. # [07:07] <karlUshi> Astrophysics exactly
  229. # [07:07] <karlUshi> there are many ways of doing sciences, not only one.
  230. # [07:08] <karlUshi> You can start from observations. You can also start from a model and looking for evidences by observing.
  231. # [07:08] <karlUshi> Observations don't necessary come first in the scientific method.
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  233. # [07:20] <G0k> yeah but...once you fail to find evidence, that's not evidence of a conspiracy to undermine your model.
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  238. # [07:47] <Hixie> i hope the hixie.ch dns gets fixed soon so i don't lose too much e-mail
  239. # [07:50] <othermaciej> is Rob just engaging in a brilliantly subtle attempt to drain all productivity?
  240. # [07:50] <othermaciej> I'm starting to be amazed at his ability to disagree with even the most basic things
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  242. # [07:56] <G0k> is this on public-html?
  243. # [08:00] <othermaciej> yes
  244. # [08:01] <othermaciej> public-html is now mostly useful content plus him plus replies to him
  245. # [08:01] <G0k> who is he?
  246. # [08:01] <othermaciej> Robert Burns?
  247. # [08:02] <G0k> yeah what's he do?
  248. # [08:02] <othermaciej> it's hard to explain without experiencing it
  249. # [08:02] <G0k> i mean does he have an occupation?
  250. # [08:02] <othermaciej> oh
  251. # [08:03] <othermaciej> I believe he is a grad student
  252. # [08:03] <karlUshi> http://www.robburns.com/
  253. # [08:04] <karlUshi> I guess he will be able to come at the Tech Plenary being in Mass.
  254. # [08:04] <G0k> does he design pages or something?
  255. # [08:05] <G0k> eeeks econ say no more
  256. # [08:06] <othermaciej> marxist econ
  257. # [08:06] <karlUshi> G0k: this is an innapropriate comment, except if you let me say "Computer Programmer… oh these binary people! say no more.". :/
  258. # [08:07] <Lachy> what is Marxian philosophy?
  259. # [08:07] <G0k> i make try to make as few appropriate comments as possible
  260. # [08:07] <G0k> it is my intention to maximize my offendees
  261. # [08:07] <othermaciej> presumably the philosophy of Karl Marx, his students, and intellectual followers
  262. # [08:07] <G0k> so yeah bring it on
  263. # [08:08] <othermaciej> I don't have a problem with economists as a class
  264. # [08:08] <karlUshi> othermaciej: me neither.
  265. # [08:08] <karlUshi> and computer programmer as well.
  266. # [08:08] <othermaciej> most of them are good at thinking in terms of incentives, spontaneous order, and unintended consequences
  267. # [08:08] <karlUshi> There are people of different nature and different style, specifically online/offline.
  268. # [08:08] <othermaciej> all of which are are useful concepts to apply to global technical standards
  269. # [08:09] <karlUshi> I know a few persons on this channel who behave differently online and offline.
  270. # [08:09] <G0k> i have several economist friends, they're just all very likely to get into an argument with me
  271. # [08:10] <karlUshi> maybe you have to ask questions about yourself then G0k ;)
  272. # [08:10] <G0k> yeah i don't deny that i'm likely to be wrong usually
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  283. # [09:02] <Lachy> Hixie, would it be possible for the spec to provide some sort of heuristic guidelines for programmatically determining when should be provided? e.g. if you have <h1><img src=""></h1>, it should be clear for a validator that the lack of alt text is an error.
  284. # [09:03] <othermaciej> you could require alt in any context that would require text if the embedded content wasn't there
  285. # [09:03] <Lachy> could it be defined that alt="" can only ever be omitted when contained within a <figure>, since that would represent it as a key part of the content
  286. # [09:03] <othermaciej> or something
  287. # [09:04] <Lachy> currently, all the examples in that section where alt can be omitted are contained within figure too
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  289. # [09:06] <othermaciej> allowing missing alt only in <figure> would address the photo gallery use case but not the "pasting images into an end-user rich text editor" use case
  290. # [09:07] <Lachy> hmm, yeah
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  295. # [10:04] <jgraham> Lachy: I would be _very_ wary of trying to subset where alt="" is allowed.
  296. # [10:04] <jgraham> Oh wait a sec, I misread that
  297. # [10:04] <jgraham> Ignore me
  298. # [10:04] <Lachy> right
  299. # [10:16] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@133.27.247.173) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  300. # [10:21] <virtuelv> I really wish people could refrain from bad ad hominems on random blogs
  301. # [10:21] <Lachy> virtuelv, ?
  302. # [10:21] <Lachy> pointer
  303. # [10:24] * Joins: cplot (n=cplot@c-98-193-22-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  304. # [10:26] <virtuelv> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200708/the_html_5_circus_why_i_left_and_rejoined_the_w3c_html_working_group/#comment3
  305. # [10:29] <krijnh> Yeah, thanks for DOSing my server Roger ;]
  306. # [10:32] <krijnh> Ah, the comment
  307. # [10:33] <othermaciej> looks like Google has secretly invented the fountain of youth
  308. # [10:35] <virtuelv> krijnh: yes, I was specifically refering to the comment itself
  309. # [10:36] <virtuelv> While I may not agree with all of what Roger says, he is at least not resorting to fallacies to argue his position
  310. # [10:38] <othermaciej> Roger's actual post seems reasonable, though looking back at his posts to the group and the replies to them, I'm not sure why he felt attacked
  311. # [10:38] <Lachy> "I am far from the only person to think that the current process of editing the specification for the next version of HTML is… less than ideal." - we really need to address this issue somehow.
  312. # [10:38] <Lachy> although the consensus based approach some people are advocating won't work, I think we need better PR to improve the current process
  313. # [10:39] * krijnh agrees
  314. # [10:39] <krijnh> Although I don't know how to fix it
  315. # [10:39] <hsivonen> the IETF has *rough* consensus and *running* code
  316. # [10:40] <hsivonen> much better than consensus on theory
  317. # [10:40] <krijnh> Perhaps it's the whatwg "vs." w3c attitude
  318. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I like the idea of the IETF process
  319. # [10:40] <othermaciej> though I have no real experience with the practice
  320. # [10:40] <Lachy> Roger just suggested to me that, whenever Hixie sends one of his summary emails responding to an issue on whatwg, we should notify public-html of it too
  321. # [10:41] <krijnh> whatwg is easier to track though
  322. # [10:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: good idea
  323. # [10:42] <krijnh> Why isn't that done already?
  324. # [10:42] <krijnh> Seems logical to do so
  325. # [10:42] <Lachy> getting a schedule from Hixie too would be good, and searching the whatwg archives and providing pointers to previous discussions beforehand may also help
  326. # [10:44] <othermaciej> there's lots of organizational and informational things that could be done, but ideally by someone other than Hixie since his plate is pretty full
  327. # [10:44] <othermaciej> I feel like the sense that reported issues are tracked is not solid enough yet, which may make people feel ignored
  328. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: last time when Hixie had an open-secret schedule, it didn't hold. I think the best we could get is a topic list without calendar time
  329. # [10:44] <Lachy> yeah, I'm sure others will volunteer to find all that info. We just need to know what the upcoming topics are
  330. # [10:44] <othermaciej> a short list of the next few topics would be helpful
  331. # [10:45] <othermaciej> and could guide review as well
  332. # [10:45] <othermaciej> (more useful to review soon-to-be-revisited areas)
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  336. # [11:18] <virtuelv> I'd like to have something like trac for open issues
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  339. # [11:28] <hsivonen> hrm. looks like the Dreamhost DNS is down
  340. # [11:29] <virtuelv> hsivonen: appears that way, all my sites are down as well
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  349. # [11:54] <Lachy> is the only purpose behind the suggested noalt="" attribute (or equivlent) just a hack to work around the validation issue?
  350. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Lachy: the purpose is to make hand coders perform an affirmative act of typing instead of just leaving something out
  351. # [11:57] <hsivonen> (fwiw, I don't like the noalt idea. It won't help with non-hand-coded source and it will majorly annoy hand coders)
  352. # [11:57] <Lachy> hmm. Ok. But I think it's perfectly fine for authoring tools and conformance checkers to provide warnings when an alt attribute has been omitted, if the author wants such information
  353. # [11:58] <Lachy> indeed, and it doesn't acctually address the issue of getting people to provide it, or just abusing it to pass validation
  354. # [11:58] <hsivonen> yeah, warnings requested by the author are very different from baking something into the conformance definition
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  356. # [12:01] <Lachy> you summed it up nicely here http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg06146.html
  357. # [12:02] <hsivonen> btw, if you feel there are particular issues that I should develop optional warnings for, please start a page on the WHATWG wiki
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  359. # [12:10] <Lachy> I think there is a page on the wiki for that stuff somewhere, isn't there?
  360. # [12:10] <Lachy> I'll have to check when the server is back up
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  365. # [13:03] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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  372. # [14:00] <gsnedders> is it just me or is whatwg.org down?
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  375. # [14:22] <mgdm> gsnedders: I can't resolve it
  376. # [14:22] <mgdm> in DNS, I mean
  377. # [14:22] <Lachy> all of Hixie's sites are down. I think it's a problem with dreamhost
  378. # [14:22] <mgdm> Ah, I tried to get to simplebits.com earlier and it was broken too
  379. # [14:28] <Philip`> dreamhoststatus.com appears to be broken too, which doesn't help immensely
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  386. # [15:36] <gsnedders> what's the point of the mask in "Content-Type sniffing: unknown type"?
  387. # [15:37] <gsnedders> ah. to make them case insensitive, or not.
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  404. # [17:36] <Lachy> would anyone like to review this blog post for the whatwg blog (which I'll publish when the site is back up) http://lachy.id.au/temp/alt
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  409. # [17:48] <zcorpan_> Lachy: looks good to me... though you may want to include more examples of where it is ok to omit alt
  410. # [17:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'd do s/the reality of the situation/the situation/ to avoid the impression that others are missing the reality
  411. # [17:49] <Lachy> I'm going to be linking to the spec, should I just borrow some of those?
  412. # [17:49] <Lachy> I like talking about reality, but ok
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  414. # [17:50] <Lachy> I suppose it hasn't gone down well with some people
  415. # [17:51] <jonbarnett> my lynx doesn't behave as described here
  416. # [17:52] <Lachy> it doesn't? There's emails in the whatwg archive that say it does
  417. # [17:53] <zcorpan_> jonbarnett: you have a test url?
  418. # [17:53] <jonbarnett> for me, lynx has options to ignore images, treat images as labels, or treat them as links. When treated as labels, the filename is used when alt is omitted, and nothing is used when alt is blank. When treated as links, the filename is used both when alt is omitted and when alt is blank. It's not that big of a difference: lynx is still making a distinction, and your version may vary
  419. # [17:55] <Lachy> I'm not sure what version was tested, it wasn't mentioned
  420. # [17:55] <jonbarnett> (I may have been the one mentioning it and not having tested thoroughly *blush*)
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  422. # [18:09] * Philip` wonders if it could be required for conformant <table>s to contain at least one <th>
  423. # [18:10] <Philip`> since I can't think of any obvious cases where you'd have a table with no headings, unless it's a layout table
  424. # [18:10] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i've used tables without headers that aren't layout tables
  425. # [18:11] <zcorpan_> genealogical table
  426. # [18:16] <Lachy> Philip`, the question you need to ask is, in the event that there are use cases for tables without headers, what harm is caused by the lack of th?
  427. # [18:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: four-cell tables in MBA material
  428. # [18:17] * Joins: polin8 (n=brian@dsl081-134-176.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  429. # [18:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: unless you consider all four to me <th>s
  430. # [18:17] <hsivonen> s/to me/to be/
  431. # [18:26] <Philip`> Lachy: If there are uses cases for headerless data tables, then we can't require headers; but if there aren't, then conformance checkers could know that any headerless table is a non-data table and is therefore non-conforming
  432. # [18:26] <Philip`> (e.g. http://www.noraradcliffe.co.uk/ is (very nearly) conforming XHTML1, designed by people who "exceed accessibility requirements", but uses tables for layout)
  433. # [18:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: which would only lead to people including bogus or barely-semantic <th>s in their tables
  434. # [18:26] <Lachy> maybe, but it's very difficult to prove that there aren't any
  435. # [18:27] <Philip`> (Er, I mean it's (very nearly) valid XHTML1)
  436. # [18:31] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/ - "A conforming user agent MUST support all of the features required in this specification." - hmm, I can't actually find any required UA features in the specification
  437. # [18:32] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  438. # [18:34] <zcorpan_> Philip`: indeed
  439. # [18:36] <zcorpan_> e.g. http://www.pointerklubben.se/stamtavla.asp?Id=S27834/2001 is a table with no headers
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  443. # [18:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: interesting dog names
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  448. # [19:06] <doublec> is www.whatwg.org down?
  449. # [19:07] <Philip`> Yes
  450. # [19:08] <Philip`> (Dreamhost's problem, I think)
  451. # [19:10] <doublec> thanks
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  455. # [19:31] <h3h> hooray Dreamhost!
  456. # [19:31] * h3h rolls eyes
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  462. # [19:40] <jonbarnett> ... and hixie's site is down, too?
  463. # [19:42] <Philip`> Yes, for the same reason
  464. # [19:44] <Hixie> this is the worst dreamhost outage yet
  465. # [19:44] <Hixie> if it wasn't for the fact that i pay $0, i'd be outraged
  466. # [19:44] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) (Remote closed the connection)
  467. # [19:44] <Hixie> yesterday i was worried that i was losing whatwg e-mail
  468. # [19:45] <Hixie> but now that whatwg isn't resolving either, i'm less concerned :-P
  469. # [19:45] <Philip`> At least http://www.dreamhost.com/ is up and says "Unfortunately we are experiencing a return of similar network problems that we experienced yesterday. Please keep your eye on this post as we will update it as soon as we have mor..." then links to the dead dreamhoststatus.com
  470. # [19:45] <Philip`> so presumably they have actually noticed there's a problem
  471. # [19:45] <jonbarnett> my personal space is on DH, and it's up (I guess I'm just tauting)
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  473. # [19:46] <met_> http://ajaxian.com/archives/web-forms-20-cross-browser-implementation
  474. # [19:49] <zcorpan_> hmm, some of the tests don't have any pass condition
  475. # [19:50] <zcorpan_> and all have too much junk around the actual test... :)
  476. # [19:55] <Hixie> they do know there's a problem
  477. # [19:55] <Hixie> they've been working overnight trying to fix it
  478. # [19:55] <Hixie> they update their internal status message ever few minutes
  479. # [19:56] <Hixie> something to do with lost dns records, they're rebuilding their dns config from scratch using a slow-working script
  480. # [19:56] <Hixie> the discussion in #html-wg was interesting
  481. # [19:57] <Hixie> can someone summarise in an unbiased way what robburns' concerns were?
  482. # [19:59] * Joins: om_sleep (n=othermac@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  483. # [19:59] <Hixie> Lachy: btw i apparently have ~3800 or so (+/- 200, i'm going from memory) e-mails in my queue right now
  484. # [20:00] <Lachy> oh, nice! It's reduced :-)
  485. # [20:00] <zcorpan_> aiui, he wanted the html wg to discuss issues raised outside the group before the spec is edited, instead of the editors editing based on external feedback and then letting the wg discuss further... but i might have missed something
  486. # [20:00] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  487. # [20:00] <jonbarnett> Hixie: i haven't been on #html-wg. is it about <img> or your editing process?
  488. # [20:01] <jonbarnett> nm
  489. # [20:01] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  490. # [20:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: my understanding was that Rob was unhappy that 1) you are focusing on stuff other than the discussions of public-html and 2) that your recent edits (in his opinion) run counter the thrust of discussions on public-html. (this may well be a biasod account)
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  492. # [20:04] <Hixie> ok
  493. # [20:05] <Hixie> 2) may well be true, i've seen no real consensus on public-html so it's hard to know what the thrust of discussion is
  494. # [20:05] <Hixie> i guess i could start picking htmlwg issues to deal with if it makes them happier
  495. # [20:05] <Lachy> Hixie, I believe Rob would agree with these suggestions http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070817#l-320aren't
  496. # [20:05] <Hixie> doesn't really make much difference what order i deal with issues in
  497. # [20:05] <hsivonen> I've been concerned about the formation of a false consensus on public-html
  498. # [20:05] <Lachy> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070817#l-320
  499. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Rob's view suggests that my concern is valid
  500. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, it does make a PR difference
  501. # [20:06] <Hixie> i can certainly bcc public-html on any mail to whatwg
  502. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: that would probably help
  503. # [20:07] <Hixie> the reason i haven't is that it would cause a flood of e-mail to whatwg
  504. # [20:07] <Hixie> since every e-mail i send to whatwg is just replied by people with actual experience, but e-mail sent to public-html immediately devolves into a flamewar
  505. # [20:08] <hsivonen> but it's really tiresome to avoid the formation of false consensus by keeping parroting old points
  506. # [20:08] <Hixie> don't worry about stopping false consensus
  507. # [20:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: true
  508. # [20:08] <Lachy> I think the alt attribute thread has actually become somewhat productive now
  509. # [20:09] <Hixie> just make sure that the wiki page for the issue clearly states all points
  510. # [20:09] <Lachy> although, started out as another near-flameware
  511. # [20:09] <Hixie> Lachy: really? you mean i should make more changes beyond what the spec says?
  512. # [20:09] <Lachy> Steven Faulkner wrote a constructive suggestion. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it was mostly well written
  513. # [20:11] <Hixie> you mean http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0660.html ?
  514. # [20:11] <Hixie> i don't see how that could work
  515. # [20:11] <Lachy> nor do I. I was just pointing out that it was well intended, not a flame
  516. # [20:12] <Hixie> (btw, re your idea, <h1></h1> isn't non-conforming -- in fact we're dropping the concept of significant inline content)
  517. # [20:12] <Hixie> sure
  518. # [20:12] <Lachy> hmm. that's what I thought you'd say
  519. # [20:13] <Hixie> it's a good idea, though, i'd do it if we weren't doing the other thing
  520. # [20:13] <Hixie> is there a wiki page with a list of problems that have been fully described and are stable?
  521. # [20:14] <Lachy> I suppose if conformance checkers implement a feature like that, you could spec it.
  522. # [20:15] <Lachy> in the HTMLWG wiki? I don't think anything is particularly stable there
  523. # [20:16] <Hixie> maybe i should send mail saying that i'm still lwaiting for a stable wiki page
  524. # [20:17] <Lachy> the table headers issues is probably the most stable, and addressing that sooner rather than later would probably really help calm people down
  525. # [20:19] <Lachy> good night everyone.
  526. # [20:20] <Hixie> nn
  527. # [20:21] <Hixie> hmm
  528. # [20:22] <Hixie> i'm gonna go to work and consider how else to help keep public-html in the loop
  529. # [20:23] <Hixie> i don't think forwarding all whatwg mail to public-html (or even my own e-mails to public-html) would be productive
  530. # [20:23] <Hixie> but maybe we should try that anyway
  531. # [20:24] <Hixie> hmm
  532. # [20:24] <Hixie> afk
  533. # [20:25] <takkaria> I think that just having a public list with the next few things you're thinking of working on, with some semi-accurate dates, would go a long way
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  540. # [21:16] <Hixie> takkaria: yeah... the problem is right now what i'm working on is "pick random piece of feedback, reply to it"
  541. # [21:17] <takkaria> may I suggest such a list might also be useful to you, then? :)
  542. # [21:17] <Hixie> woot, my site is back up :-D
  543. # [21:17] <Philip`> That sounds like it could be extended to "pick several random pieces of feedback, put them in a list, and reply to them in that order"
  544. # [21:17] <Hixie> takkaria: i dunno, i find i work most productively on the opposite of what i'm supposed to work on :-)
  545. # [21:18] <takkaria> ah, so you're not superhuman either? shame
  546. # [21:18] <Hixie> takkaria: literally, to the point where i've sometimes made lists of what i Must Do Now that are actually the opposite of what i really have to do to trick myself into doing it :-P
  547. # [21:18] <takkaria> heh
  548. # [21:19] <takkaria> I can't imagine a list of things you're not going to work on being very useful to the WG, since that'd be quite a long list
  549. # [21:19] * gsnedders can think of one think to do:
  550. # [21:19] * gsnedders faceplams
  551. # [21:19] <gsnedders> *facepalms
  552. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: the worst part is I'm not actually that surprised at you doing that.
  553. # [21:20] <Hixie> heh
  554. # [21:20] <Hixie> so, anyone want to take bets on what lists i got unsubscribed from due to my mail bouncing?
  555. # [21:21] <gsnedders> I'm tempted to guess public-xhtml
  556. # [21:22] <Philip`> Mailman seems to default to needing several weeks of bouncing before unsubscribing someone
  557. # [21:22] <Hixie> cool
  558. # [21:23] <Philip`> (but I could be wrong, or people could have non-default settings)
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  572. # [22:27] <kingryan> does anyone know if anyone has implemented "4.7.4. Content-Type sniffing: feed or HTML"
  573. # [22:27] <kingryan> ?
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  576. # [22:28] <kingryan> sorry, my client is acting up
  577. # [22:28] <gsnedders> kingryan: yes. me.
  578. # [22:28] <kingryan> gsnedders: do you have a test suite? ;)
  579. # [22:28] <gsnedders> kingryan: no
  580. # [22:28] <gsnedders> kingryan: the implementation is literally just finished :)
  581. # [22:28] <kingryan> btw, url: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#content-type3
  582. # [22:29] <kingryan> gsnedders: is your code available?
  583. # [22:29] <kingryan> open source?
  584. # [22:29] * zcorpan_ could perhaps write some tests on content sniffing
  585. # [22:29] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I'll write some tonight
  586. # [22:29] <kingryan> I'll contribute some tests too
  587. # [22:29] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: ok, great :)
  588. # [22:30] <gsnedders> kingryan: it will be, soon
  589. # [22:30] <kingryan> I have an interpretation question though
  590. # [22:30] <gsnedders> BTW, for step 10: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0671.html
  591. # [22:30] <kingryan> in step 6 of that algorithm
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  593. # [22:30] <gsnedders> the double otherwise?
  594. # [22:30] <kingryan> both substeps 3 and 4 start with "otherwise"
  595. # [22:30] <kingryan> :) yes
  596. # [22:30] <gsnedders> a mistake, without question
  597. # [22:30] <gsnedders> for the algorithm to make sense they need to be a single "otherwise"
  598. # [22:30] <kingryan> did you get a clarification from Hixie or whoever else contributed that?
  599. # [22:31] <zcorpan_> how did you implement it? if ... else ... else ? :)
  600. # [22:31] <gsnedders> not yet, but there's no other way the algorithm would even work
  601. # [22:31] <gsnedders> (<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0672.html>)
  602. # [22:31] <kingryan> ok, I'll try that approach
  603. # [22:32] <gsnedders> how should test cases be done?
  604. # [22:32] <gsnedders> as the HTTP headers are relevant…
  605. # [22:32] <gsnedders> just entire HTTP responses? JSON objects of header name => value?
  606. # [22:33] <zcorpan_> hmm
  607. # [22:33] <kingryan> I know 4.7.4 isn't self contained, but I don't see any references in that sectoin to http
  608. # [22:33] <gsnedders> kingryan: but section 4.7 as a whole
  609. # [22:33] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: just using .htaccess should work, no?
  610. # [22:33] <kingryan> right. I'm only focused on 4.7.4 right now
  611. # [22:34] <kingryan> but for testing the section as a whole...
  612. # [22:34] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I currently have all my tests in SVN though, and not served through Apache
  613. # [22:34] <kingryan> what I usually do is have pairs of files "foo.html" and "foo.json"
  614. # [22:35] <kingryan> s/html/http/
  615. # [22:35] <kingryan> where "foo.http" is a full http response (headers and all)
  616. # [22:35] <kingryan> and "foo.json" includes whatever data we hope to extract
  617. # [22:35] * Philip` wonders if that content-type sniffing algorithm can be correctly implemented as a regular expression
  618. # [22:35] <kingryan> Philip`: I think most state machines can be mapped to regexen
  619. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: depends on the regular expression engine :P
  620. # [22:37] <Philip`> I guess it'd be somewhat like ...
  621. # [22:37] <Philip`> my $ct = 'text/html'; $ct = { rss => 'application/rss+xml', feed => 'application/atom+xml' }->{$1} if substr($data, 0, 512) =~ /^(?:\s+(?:<!--.*?-->|!.*?>|\?.*?\?>))+?(rss|feed)/;
  622. # [22:37] <gsnedders> kingryan: so .json would just have the MIME type, in this case?
  623. # [22:37] <Philip`> at least if you ignore the rdf:RDF bit
  624. # [22:37] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-affe934cde82e1ce)
  625. # [22:37] <kingryan> gsnedders: yes
  626. # [22:37] <Philip`> but that's quite utterly untested
  627. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: see the former of the two emails I linked to about rdf:RDF
  628. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Saf just treats <rdf:RDF as application/rss+xml, and I'm unaware of anything that breaks due to it
  629. # [22:39] <Philip`> I guess /^(?:\s+(?:<!--.*?-->|!.*?>|\?.*?\?>))+?<(rss|feed|rdf:RDF)/ might do that, then
  630. # [22:40] <Philip`> Urgh, but I'm still missing some <s
  631. # [22:40] <Philip`> /^(?:\s+(?:<!--.*?-->|<!.*?>|<\?.*?\?>))+?<(rss|feed|rdf:RDF)/
  632. # [22:40] <Philip`> /^(?:\s+(?:<!--.*?-->|<!.*?>|<\?.*?\?>))+?<(rss|feed|rdf:RDF)/
  633. # [22:41] * Philip` finds that much easier to read than what's in the spec
  634. # [22:41] <Philip`> though it's still wrong
  635. # [22:41] <Philip`> /^(?:\s*(?:<!--.*?-->|<!.*?>|<\?.*?\?>))*?<(rss|feed|rdf:RDF)/
  636. # [22:42] <Philip`> /^(?:\s*(?:<!--.*?-->|<!.*?>|<\?.*?\?>))*?<(rss|feed|rdf:RDF|)/
  637. # [22:42] * Philip` will get there eventually
  638. # [22:44] <Philip`> Hmm, still wrong
  639. # [22:44] <Philip`> /^(?:\s*(?:<!--.*?-->|<!.*?>|<\?.*?\?>))*?<(rss|feed|rdf:RDF|(?!!--|!|?))/
  640. # [22:45] <Philip`> Okay, maybe it's getting less easy to read
  641. # [22:48] <gsnedders> how about /^<\?xml[\x20\x9\xD\xA]+version([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?=([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?(\"1.0\"|'1.0'|\"1.1\"|'1.1')[\x20\x9\xD\xA]+encoding([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?=([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?(\"[A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9._\-]*\"|'[A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9._\-]*')([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+standalone([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?=([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?(\"(yes|no)\"|'(yes|no)'))?([\x20\x9\xD\xA]+)?\?>/
  642. # [22:48] <gsnedders> :P
  643. # [22:49] <gsnedders> if that's easy to read…
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  645. # [22:51] <Philip`> It'd be a bit nicer if you split the common whitespace bits into a variable and did /^<\?xml $ws+ version $ws* = .../x or something :-)
  646. # [22:52] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@17.255.104.143)
  647. # [22:52] <gsnedders> it's a good question why I put it all together before saving it. I wrote it with variables like that.
  648. # [22:52] <Philip`> I wonder if I can compile the tokeniser algorithm into a Perl regexp...
  649. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: try! I doubt it, but I want to see the result if you can
  650. # [22:52] <gsnedders> kingryan: actually, just storing whole HTTP responses gets annoying when you have binary responses
  651. # [22:54] <Philip`> I don't remember seeing any bits of the algorithm that would cause annoying pumping lemma problems when trying to make a (theoretical) regular expression of it, and in any case nobody cares about that since real regexps are not regular...
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  655. # [22:55] <kingryan> gsnedders: why is that annoying?
  656. # [22:55] <takkaria> being able to define your own character classes could increase readability a lot
  657. # [22:55] <Philip`> (I don't think a great number of theoretical models of regular expressions even attempt to cope with the ability to include arbitrary Perl code in the middle of one)
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  660. # [22:56] <gsnedders> kingryan: text editors tend to not like arbitrary binary data
  661. # [22:56] <kingryan> right
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  663. # [22:57] <gsnedders> kingryan: you want to do all of feed/html?
  664. # [22:58] <kingryan> gsnedders: not sure what you're asking
  665. # [22:58] <gsnedders> kingryan: of the test cases
  666. # [22:58] <gsnedders> kingryan: if you do the feed/html ones, I'll just do the rest
  667. # [22:58] <kingryan> cool
  668. # [22:59] <kingryan> yeah, I'll do as many as it takes for my software to work right :)
  669. # [22:59] <gsnedders> the feed/html ones are actually the ones I need, too :P
  670. # [23:00] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  671. # [23:00] <kingryan> so, how do we want to organize these?
  672. # [23:00] <gsnedders> that's what I'm wondering.
  673. # [23:00] <kingryan> the feed/html ones aren't dependent on HTTP
  674. # [23:00] <kingryan> is "content-type" the only HTTP header we need?
  675. # [23:01] <gsnedders> there's one check that content-encoding isn't set
  676. # [23:01] <gsnedders> but that only applies for certain content-type headers anyway
  677. # [23:01] <gsnedders> (step 1, 4.7)
  678. # [23:02] <kingryan> in other words, do we need arbitrary http headers?
  679. # [23:02] <kingryan> if not, we can just use JSON
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  681. # [23:03] <takkaria> surely you could use JSON anyway?
  682. # [23:03] <kingryan> takkaria: the question was whether we need full http headers
  683. # [23:03] <kingryan> which I doubt we do
  684. # [23:03] <gsnedders> kingryan: we could just have tests for sections 4.7.[1-4]
  685. # [23:03] * Parts: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  686. # [23:03] <kingryan> gsnedders: it'd be useful for me to have tests for the subsections, but we should probably also do overall tests
  687. # [23:03] <gsnedders> kingryan: actually no
  688. # [23:04] <kingryan> no what?
  689. # [23:04] <gsnedders> kingryan: the image section relies on the outer algorithm if it doesn't find anything
  690. # [23:04] <kingryan> ah, ok
  691. # [23:04] <kingryan> nevermind then
  692. # [23:04] <gsnedders> unknown jumps to text or binary
  693. # [23:05] <kingryan> we can still separate them logically so that if you have only implemented, for example "html vs. feed", you can get that section of tests to pass
  694. # [23:05] <gsnedders> yeah
  695. # [23:05] <kingryan> how about we structure the tests like so:
  696. # [23:05] <kingryan> [{"input": "512 byte string", "result": "mime type"},...]
  697. # [23:06] <gsnedders> always 512 bytes?
  698. # [23:06] <kingryan> isn't that the limit?
  699. # [23:06] <kingryan> unless I'm mistaken
  700. # [23:06] <gsnedders> "512 or more"
  701. # [23:06] <gsnedders> it's the min
  702. # [23:07] <kingryan> it seems to me like there non-determinism there
  703. # [23:07] <gsnedders> we better keep them to 512 bytes, so the most pessimistic implementations pass
  704. # [23:08] <kingryan> that seems reasonable to me
  705. # [23:08] <gsnedders> what do you want to do for the "Big Issue"?
  706. # [23:08] <kingryan> nothing for now?
  707. # [23:08] <kingryan> we have plenty of non-"big issue" things to implement
  708. # [23:09] <gsnedders> that's true.
  709. # [23:10] <gsnedders> kingryan: why did you use [{…}] though?
  710. # [23:10] <gsnedders> why the outer array?
  711. # [23:10] <gsnedders> you mean to have them all in one file?
  712. # [23:10] <kingryan> I was just saying that we'd have a list of them in json
  713. # [23:11] <kingryan> yes, I mean to have more than one per file
  714. # [23:11] <gsnedders> right.
  715. # [23:11] <kingryan> and we should do a file for each sub-section
  716. # [23:12] <kingryan> so binary.json, unknown.json, image.json, feed.json
  717. # [23:14] <gsnedders> JSON has no sort of hex encoding, only unicode, doesn't it?
  718. # [23:14] <kingryan> I think so
  719. # [23:14] <gsnedders> doesn't that make it impossible to represent some of the bytes we need?
  720. # [23:15] <kingryan> like what?
  721. # [23:16] * kingryan has only really looked at the feeds sectoin
  722. # [23:16] * gsnedders realises.
  723. # [23:16] <gsnedders> I can just do \u00FE\u00FF
  724. # [23:16] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  725. # [23:16] <gsnedders> allowing a UTF-16BE BOM without using the unicode code point for it.
  726. # [23:16] <kingryan> gsnedders: we could also do arrays of numbers
  727. # [23:16] <gsnedders> kingryan: no, strings are easier
  728. # [23:16] <kingryan> I agree
  729. # [23:17] <gsnedders> kingryan: do you have commit access to put them in html5lib?
  730. # [23:17] <kingryan> yes
  731. # [23:17] <gsnedders> ah. I don't.
  732. # [23:18] <kingryan> I can commit tests if you send them to me
  733. # [23:18] * gsnedders instinctively types \xFF and not \u00FF
  734. # [23:19] <gsnedders> kingryan: @technorati.com one?
  735. # [23:19] <kingryan> either that or @theryanking.com
  736. # [23:19] <kingryan> doesn't matter
  737. # [23:19] * Quits: jonbarnett (n=jbarnett@71.159.54.54) (Remote closed the connection)
  738. # [23:19] <gsnedders> I just looked at what I had on mailing lists from you :)
  739. # [23:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: around?
  740. # [23:20] <jgraham> Yep
  741. # [23:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: possible to add me to html5lib so I can add tests?
  742. # [23:22] <jgraham> Sure. foolistbar? or some other address?
  743. # [23:22] <gsnedders> geoffers
  744. # [23:22] * jgraham needs a better gmail address
  745. # [23:23] <gsnedders> foolistbar sometimes seems so appropriate
  746. # [23:23] <jgraham> OK it should be done
  747. # [23:23] * Philip` needs a better one too
  748. # [23:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: thanks
  749. # [23:24] <Philip`> If someone could kick off all the early users who got the good usernames, that'd be very helpful
  750. # [23:24] <gsnedders> like me?
  751. # [23:24] * gsnedders ducks
  752. # [23:24] <gsnedders> I got foolistbar quite late on, actually
  753. # [23:24] <gsnedders> they were already using googlemail.com by then
  754. # [23:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: You don't have anything like as common a name as Philip` or I though
  755. # [23:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: that's true
  756. # [23:26] * jgraham decides jgrham.html might be good for html related bits
  757. # [23:26] <jgraham> er jgraham that is
  758. # [23:27] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (Remote closed the connection)
  759. # [23:27] <jgraham> or if not good at least better
  760. # [23:28] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  761. # [23:31] <gsnedders> god do I hate typing JSON
  762. # [23:31] <gsnedders> practice makes perfect, though
  763. # [23:33] <gsnedders> (all of the tests I've so far written read "Hello, World!")
  764. # [23:33] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  765. # [23:33] <takkaria> I like using Jabberwocky when string data is required for tests
  766. # [23:34] <jgraham> Has anyone implemented the table model stuff
  767. # [23:34] <jgraham> ?
  768. # [23:35] * jgraham can't see where the algorithm is supposed to move on to the next row
  769. # [23:38] <gsnedders> http://geoffers.no-ip.com/svn/php-html-5-direct/tests/type-sniffing/textOrBinary — that's horrid to work on :\
  770. # [23:39] <kingryan> gsnedders: that does look horrid
  771. # [23:40] <kingryan> working with binary data in a text editor is never fun though
  772. # [23:40] <gsnedders> those aren't binary.
  773. # [23:40] <gsnedders> they're specific unicode encodings.
  774. # [23:40] <kingryan> ah, ok
  775. # [23:40] <gsnedders> BOM + "Hello, World!"
  776. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> don't \u... represent characters, not bytes?
  777. # [23:41] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: yes, but there's no other way to do it :(
  778. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> ok
  779. # [23:41] <kingryan> maybe JSON isn't the best approach then?
  780. # [23:41] <gsnedders> everything is going to be horrid
  781. # [23:42] <zcorpan_> [0xFE,0xFF,0x00, ...
  782. # [23:42] <gsnedders> that's the alternative in JSON
  783. # [23:42] <kingryan> gsnedders: we *could* do integer arrays
  784. # [23:42] <gsnedders> yeah
  785. # [23:42] <gsnedders> probably better, in actuality
  786. # [23:42] <kingryan> and that'd be closer to how the spec writes it
  787. # [23:43] <kingryan> how about we say the tests runners should be able to take either a string or an array of integers representing bytes?
  788. # [23:43] <gsnedders> actually, no hex forms in JSON.
  789. # [23:43] <gsnedders> ergh.
  790. # [23:43] <kingryan> ick
  791. # [23:44] <gsnedders> if we're doing JSON, the way it is is the only hex way.
  792. # [23:44] <gsnedders> yuk.
  793. # [23:45] <Philip`> Maybe you could have an array of string+ints, so you can write [0xFE,0xFF,"Hello",0x20,"world"]
  794. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: no. hex. numbers.
  795. # [23:45] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@89.242.72.221)
  796. # [23:45] <Philip`> Oops - [254,255,"Hello",32,"world"]
  797. # [23:46] <gsnedders> that means converting everything from the spec
  798. # [23:46] <gsnedders> and I can't convert hex to dec in my head
  799. # [23:46] <gsnedders> slowwww :(
  800. # [23:46] <Philip`> JSON5!
  801. # [23:46] <gsnedders> :)
  802. # [23:46] <Philip`> Or just say it's JS
  803. # [23:46] <gsnedders> yes, but half the point of JSON is it is supported in other languages
  804. # [23:47] <Philip`> Or use strings like "FE FF 00 48" and get people to translate it after the JSON parsing
  805. # [23:47] <gsnedders> XML + numeric entities suddenly looks tempting
  806. # [23:48] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  807. # [23:48] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  808. # [23:49] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  809. # [23:54] <kingryan> gsnedders: maybe a microformat? ;)
  810. # [23:54] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  811. # [23:54] <gsnedders> kingryan: what an out of the world suggestion from you :)
  812. # [23:55] <kingryan> :)
  813. # [23:55] <gsnedders> kingryan: <var> could be used for input and result… but their content?
  814. # [23:56] <gsnedders> <samp> for result?
  815. # [23:56] <kingryan> sure
  816. # [23:56] <gsnedders> and for the input?
  817. # [23:57] <kingryan> <code> ?
  818. # [23:58] <gsnedders> I'm slightly dubious about that, but I can't think of anything better
  819. # [23:58] <kingryan> <pre> ?
  820. # [23:58] <gsnedders> probably better we use XHTML, so there is no need for a full blown HTML parser
  821. # [23:59] <gsnedders> <pre> suits us insofar as that the entities (as they'll have to be) are the preformated input
  822. # Session Close: Sat Aug 18 00:00:01 2007

The end :)