/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-215eb659117afb50) ("The computer fell asleep")
  4. # [00:06] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.195)
  5. # [00:06] <Lachy> good morning
  6. # [00:07] <Hixie> hey Lachy
  7. # [00:08] <gsnedders> hi Lachy
  8. # [00:09] <Lachy> Hixie, that's a nice way to deal with trolling on the whatwg list :-)
  9. # [00:10] <Hixie> he ignored my request
  10. # [00:10] <Lachy> yeah, I noticed
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> so yeah
  12. # [00:10] * Hixie gets good advice on how to handle trolls from his teammates at work
  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> (i work in the open source group, so they're all experts at handling communites)
  14. # [00:11] <Hixie> communities, even
  15. # [00:11] <Hixie> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 being a good example
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> come to think of it i think i was in that room when that video was taped
  17. # [00:12] <Lachy> I'm wondering if I should respond to Joe's off list email to us re our IRC commetns, and suggest that if he has any alternative solutions (instead of just complaints), that he should send them.
  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> did i get that e-mail? i forget
  19. # [00:13] <Lachy> hmm. is hixie @ google.com a valid email address for you? I wasn't aware of it, but that's where joe sent it
  20. # [00:14] <Hixie> no, that won't work
  21. # [00:14] <Hixie> so i guess i didn't
  22. # [00:14] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch is my address
  23. # [00:14] <Lachy> I just saw hixie in the CC list and assumed it got to you. I'll forward it
  24. # [00:15] <Hixie> no thanks!
  25. # [00:15] <Lachy> oh, too late
  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> oh well :-)
  27. # [00:15] <Hixie> and there i was with an excuse
  28. # [00:16] * Quits: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  29. # [00:17] <Hixie> i see he didn't mail mike
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> which would have made him realise that what he was calling the whatwg actually was the w3c in that case :-)
  31. # [00:28] <Hixie> ok. since clearly the offline web apps stuff is still being discussed, let's do the datatemplate stuff hyatt and i came up with
  32. # [00:30] <Lachy> what's datatemplate?
  33. # [00:31] <Hixie> the replacement for repetition blocks
  34. # [00:32] <othermaciej> replacement for WF2 repetition model but based on XUL templates so it provides much more of the general capabilities that XForms repetition does
  35. # [00:32] <Hixie> yeah
  36. # [00:32] <othermaciej> inspired by comment from John Boyer
  37. # [00:32] <Hixie> (though it requires external xml files sadly, unless you use xhtml, or unless you are very careful with html)
  38. # [00:33] <othermaciej> I am shocked to see this sort of paying attention to feedback
  39. # [00:33] <Lachy> wow
  40. # [00:33] <othermaciej> we'll have to discuss this at the next cabal meeting
  41. # [00:33] <Hixie> dude i have to pay attention to _hyatt_
  42. # [00:33] <Hixie> he's one of the _editors_
  43. # [00:33] <Hixie> he's got a jet pack and everything!
  44. # [00:34] <Lachy> why haven't you dismissed that feedback like we do with everything else? ;-)
  45. # [00:34] <takkaria> othermaciej: oh, didn't you hear? #whatwg is always a cabal meeting
  46. # [00:34] <othermaciej> takkaria: yes, that's what we want you to... oops, I've said to much
  47. # [00:35] <Hixie> ( http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5#comment-249313 )
  48. # [00:35] <takkaria> othermaciej: oh, so there's another backroom irc channel around? :P
  49. # [00:35] <Hixie> amusingly ajaxian using <dt> and <dd> backwards
  50. # [00:35] <Hixie> i wish
  51. # [00:35] <Hixie> if there was we wouldn't fear people quoting us all the time :-P
  52. # [00:44] <Lachy> I like how we get accused of having a secret cabal (in a publicly logged IRC channel), yet it's ok for there to be a clear conspiracy among some others to file provocative bug reports and complain
  53. # [00:45] <jgraham> Lachy: I think there's not really a conspiracy to complain but a set of individuals who are motivated to do negative things for whatever reason
  54. # [00:46] <takkaria> I think they just haven't seen the light yet...
  55. # [00:46] <Lachy> yeah, well, they appear to be working well together to achieve their common goals
  56. # [00:48] <Hixie> i very highly doubt there's a conspiracy there
  57. # [00:48] <jgraham> If their common goal is "disrupt the WG" then yeah. But I don't think there's a real agenda, except perhaps a common feeling that they want to exert more influence
  58. # [00:48] <jgraham> (that is not supposed to imply that they do not exert influence, only that they feel they do not)
  59. # [00:49] <Hixie> they clearly exert a lot of influence, they've been the topic of this channel for days :-)
  60. # [00:49] <Hixie> much more so than any technical issue has
  61. # [00:49] <Philip`> Lachy: Why is that a clear conspiracy? I assume they just read the IRC logs and find links to the existing bug reports and then maybe add their own comments
  62. # [00:51] <Lachy> I was just basing my conspiracy theory on othermaciej's email, I wasn't entirely serious.
  63. # [00:51] <Lachy> this one http://www.w3.org/mid/DA234C3B-59E7-4E9E-A779-00181EDF06BE@apple.com
  64. # [00:52] <Hixie> i think he was applying reducto ad absurdum
  65. # [00:52] <Hixie> not suggesting there actually was a conspiracy :-)
  66. # [00:52] <othermaciej> I was trying to
  67. # [00:52] <othermaciej> but apparently I was more right than I thought :-)
  68. # [00:53] <Hixie> oh?
  69. # [00:53] <Hixie> why?
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  71. # [00:53] <othermaciej> well I don't think the whole thing was staged
  72. # [00:54] <othermaciej> but Rob did privately complain about my remark to John and the chairs, without even Cc'ing me
  73. # [00:54] <Hixie> aah
  74. # [00:54] <Hixie> so many private complaints
  75. # [00:54] <Hixie> how are we supposed to follow the gossip if they don't cc www-archive
  76. # [00:54] <Dashiva> They should take a hint from us and do their secret scheming in public logs
  77. # [00:55] * jgraham waves at all the log readers
  78. # [00:55] <takkaria> I don't see how people can complain about transparency and make private complaints at the same time
  79. # [00:55] <Lachy> it was suggested to me once by someone a few days ago that we set up a special IRC channel for such people :-)
  80. # [00:56] <Dashiva> I recall one such channel
  81. # [00:57] <Dashiva> #whatwg-secret-tree-house-no-patents-allowed
  82. # [00:57] <othermaciej> if the private complaints at least were used instead of private complaints, that might be a net benefit
  83. # [00:57] <othermaciej> *instead of public complaints
  84. # [00:57] <Hixie> hah
  85. # [00:57] * takkaria grins
  86. # [00:57] <othermaciej> having both is the worst of both worlds
  87. # [00:59] <Dashiva> It's too bad this is actually serious business. Could have a lot of fun setting up a fake-logged cabal channel
  88. # [01:01] * Hixie updates himself with the controversy on www-archive
  89. # [01:01] <Hixie> you know what bugs me more than whiners?
  90. # [01:02] <Hixie> whiners who complain about things that are actually non-issues (e.g. nobody has actually complained that they are forced to use an AT tool that doesn't work with the issues page)
  91. # [01:02] <Hixie> and even more than that
  92. # [01:02] <Hixie> whiners who complain about things yet are not willing to step up to the plate and actually address them
  93. # [01:03] * takkaria avoids commenting at all for that last reason. :)
  94. # [01:03] <Hixie> heh
  95. # [01:03] <Hixie> i don't mind people making suggestions
  96. # [01:03] <Hixie> "it would be better if it could support IE"
  97. # [01:03] <Hixie> it's people who whine that i find annoying
  98. # [01:03] <takkaria> yeah
  99. # [01:03] <Hixie> "it sucks because it doesn't support IE"
  100. # [01:04] <takkaria> I have nothing to add that other people don't mention at some point, anyway. I don't even do much web-based stuff anymore
  101. # [01:04] <Hixie> heh
  102. # [01:04] <takkaria> though I quite enjoyed looking through longdesc stuff the other day
  103. # [01:04] <takkaria> I signed up to look at spec development, not politics. it's sad that things are this bad, really
  104. # [01:05] <Hixie> yeah
  105. # [01:05] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-908b3c7b727aadfd) ("The computer fell asleep")
  106. # [01:06] <Philip`> Steve Faulkner indicated in one email that he would like to help fix the tool (though he couldn't do it easily since he didn't know how), which sounds positive
  107. # [01:06] <Hixie> yeah, that went nowhere quickly
  108. # [01:10] * zcorpan wonders if the tool would work better in ie if some script from dean edwards was applied
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  111. # [01:11] <zcorpan> like "ie7" or base2 or something -- i haven't looked closely at either script nor the tool
  112. # [01:12] <Hixie> given that as far as i can tell it's not inconveniencing any actual users, i don't see much point in making the page less standards compliant
  113. # [01:14] * Hixie gens a version of the spec with three extra elements (without defining them yet)
  114. # [01:15] * takkaria sighs at twitter for being crap
  115. # [01:15] <Hixie> twitter's so unreliable
  116. # [01:15] <Hixie> is there another system that also supports IM, sms, and rest api interaction?
  117. # [01:15] <Hixie> meeting. bbl.
  118. # [01:16] <takkaria> for free? I doubt it
  119. # [01:17] <Philip`> From a position of knowing exactly nothing about it, <nest> sounds like a fairly ambiguous name
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  121. # [01:32] <Dashiva> So is it only IEx that doesn't support the issues page, or are other browsers (possibly older versions) also unable to use it?
  122. # [01:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: nice with the table inspector. i might look into writing test pages with tables that we like the algorithm to work with -- based on ben's research -- so we can do rapid prototyping of alternative algorithms
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  125. # [01:41] <Philip`> Dashiva: The voting doesn't really work in Konqueror
  126. # [01:41] <Philip`> (It does count the vote, but doesn't update the screen after voting)
  127. # [01:46] <Philip`> (So, uh, I suppose that means the voting does really work, but it just has cosmetic issues)
  128. # [01:56] <Dashiva> Gonna have to set up a local server proxy for the listen and whatnot, I suppose... where are those cross-domain auth specs when you need them
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  147. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> wondering if anybody may have looked at the OpenAjax "Hub" spec and have any thoughts on it
  148. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> http://www.openajax.org/OpenAjax%20Hub.html
  149. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> in particular:
  150. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> http://www.openajax.org/OpenAjax%20Hub.html#Example
  151. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> [[
  152. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> To make the application work, the developer registers a callback function that is invoked whenever the user selects a new date in the calendar widget. This callback function then broadcasts the new date event using the OpenAjax Hub's publish() function:
  153. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> ]]
  154. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> [[
  155. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> Then the developer includes code such that each chart widget and data grid widget subscribes to the new date event and provides a callback function. The various callback functions then update the given visualization widget appropriately:
  156. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> ]]
  157. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> [[
  158. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> The Hub's key feature is its publish/subscribe manager (the "pub/sub manager"). The pub/sub manager allows one part of a mashup to broadcast an event to which other application components subscribe.
  159. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> ]]
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  234. # [20:43] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-0460268c6ca455f8)
  235. # [20:44] * Dashiva ponders the "structured options" email.
  236. # [20:52] * Philip` wonders why white-space:pre doesn't work in <select>s in any browser
  237. # [20:52] <Philip`> (Is that a bug?)
  238. # [20:55] <zcorpan> a lot of stuff don't work with <select>s or form controls in general
  239. # [20:55] <Philip`> (Thinking of http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cselect%20style%3D%22font-family%3A%20monospace%3B%20white-space%3A%20pre%22%3E%0A%3Coption%20value%3D%221%22%3E4302WW%20%7C%20Red%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%7C%20%A310.99%0A%3Coption%20value%3D%222%22%3E2915II%20%7C%20Turquoise%20%7C%20%A310.99%0A%3C/select%3E in particular)
  240. # [20:56] <Philip`> Um, if anyone knows why that causes "Service Temporarily Unavailable", I'd be happy to find out
  241. # [20:58] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  242. # [20:59] <Philip`> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%7C%20%20%7C says "Service Temporarily Unavailable" which is peculiar
  243. # [20:59] <Philip`> Anyway, I was thinking of http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cselect%20style%3D%22font-family%3A%20monospace%3B%20white-space%3A%20pre%22%3E%0D%0A%3Coption%20value%3D%221%22%3E4302WW%20%7C%20Red%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%7C%20%A310.99%0D%0A%3Coption%20value%3D%222%22%3E2915II%20%7C%20Turquoise%20%7C%20%A310.99%0D%0A%3C/select%3E
  244. # [21:00] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
  245. # [21:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: encoding problem with the dead viewer?
  246. # [21:02] <zcorpan> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/reflect.cgi?%u263A for ☺
  247. # [21:03] <Philip`> Yes, but I don't know where since I tried to make everything just use UTF-8
  248. # [21:03] <Philip`> Oh, that won't work because the CGI program only understands %xx values
  249. # [21:03] <zcorpan> indeed, but that's what the js sends
  250. # [21:04] <zcorpan> it should send %E2%98%BA instead
  251. # [21:04] <Philip`> In FF3 it sends %A3
  252. # [21:04] <Philip`> (as far as I can see)
  253. # [21:04] <Philip`> (Uh, for £ symbols at least)
  254. # [21:05] <zcorpan> yeah, opera too
  255. # [21:06] <zcorpan> it's escape()
  256. # [21:07] <zcorpan> use encodeURIComponent() instead
  257. # [21:08] <Philip`> Oh, never heard of that before
  258. # [21:08] <zcorpan> and decodeURIComponent() instead of unescape()
  259. # [21:11] * dev0_ is now known as dev0
  260. # [21:11] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/?%C3%A6%E2%80%9D%C2%A2%C3%B0e%C4%91%C5%8B%C4%A7%E2%86%92j%C4%B8%C5%82%C2%B5n%C3%B8%C3%BE%40%C2%B6%C3%9F%C5%A7%E2%86%93%E2%80%9C%C5%82%C2%BB%E2%86%90%C2%AB
  261. # [21:11] <Philip`> Seems to work - thanks :-)
  262. # [21:12] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/x.html?%3Chtml%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml%22%3E%C3%A6%E2%80%9D%C2%A2%C3%B0e%C4%91%C5%8B%C4%A7%E2%86%92j%C4%B8%C5%82%C2%B5n%C3%B8%C3%BE%40%C2%B6%C3%9F%C5%A7%E2%86%93%E2%80%9C%C5%82%C2%BB%E2%86%90%C2%AB%3C%2Fhtml%3E - seems to work too
  263. # [21:17] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  264. # [21:24] <gsnedders> so the majority of HTML WG email was technical email (7/9ths of it was), so I stay
  265. # [21:32] * Joins: dolphinling (n=chatzill@132.198.252.57)
  266. # [21:39] * Retrieving #whatwg modes...
  267. # [21:42] <Philip`> Do any browsers sniff text/plain content differently to unlabelled content? (I'm wondering how many web sites would break when upgrading to an Apache that doesn't send Content-Type: text/plain by default)
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  272. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Philip`: I wouldn't expect any intentional differences, but perhaps that some forget to do parts of the sniffing because there hasn't been a need yet
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  276. # [22:26] * gsnedders_ wonders how risky it'd be to ship the HTML 5 type sniffing
  277. # [22:26] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-26.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  278. # [22:26] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
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  293. # Session Close: Sun Aug 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)