/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 27 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <webben_> oh
  4. # [00:00] <webben_> Philip`: it would be interesting (well to me anyhow) to see a table with img in one column and a longdesc link in the next column
  5. # [00:01] <webben_> I've found plenty of vaguely appropriate longdesc's but it would be nice to try and see more examples.
  6. # [00:02] <Philip`> Out of 8192, I had 31 .gov and 175 .edu
  7. # [00:02] <Philip`> (*numbers of pages)
  8. # [00:02] <webben_> well that's some
  9. # [00:02] <Philip`> (This is a random sample from dmoz.org's list)
  10. # [00:03] <webben_> It might help at some point to do some sort of clumping differentiation based on what sort of site given markup is on.
  11. # [00:03] <Philip`> (It'd be easy to do a sample of e.g. all .gov sites extracted from dmoz.org's list)
  12. # [00:03] <webben_> cool
  13. # [00:03] <Philip`> Comparing the dmoz.org data vs the Alexa top 500 shows some very significant differences
  14. # [00:04] <webben_> I wonder how representative or not dmoz is generally.
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  16. # [00:04] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/analyse.cgi/index vs http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index)
  17. # [00:05] <mpt> When I spent some time reading through dmoz-related discussions a few years ago I got the impression that it was a pile of fiefdoms
  18. # [00:05] <Philip`> (<script> and <form> were the most obvious differences that I noticed)
  19. # [00:06] <webben_> Philip`: Have you considering pushing beyond home pages?
  20. # [00:08] <webben_> e.g. for stuff like longdesc, you wouldn't normally expect to find that on a homepage.
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  25. # [00:15] <Philip`> webben_: I've not really thought in any detail how to find a good set of pages to analyse
  26. # [00:16] <Philip`> Some kind of crawler would be good, but I don't know how to make it find interesting pages and to not get stuck in a few deep sites
  27. # [00:17] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  28. # [00:21] <webben_> I've often wondered whether it would be possible to use the Internet Archive's database. But I dunno how deep that really goes either.
  29. # [00:23] <Philip`> I think working out which set of pages to examine is a more difficult problem than actually downloading the pages, and I imagine the IA archive doesn't help with the first problem
  30. # [00:23] <webben_> I think these trawlings are more helpful for finding examples of markup in use, then for the statistics (because the sampling is inevitably going to be kinda skewey unless you take samples of very specific things, e.g. how is markup used on Wikipedia or Blogger or something).
  31. # [00:24] <webben_> I guess I was thinking the IA Archive is going to be a different set then DMOZ.org. But actually I have no real idea how IA is collected anyhow.
  32. # [00:24] <webben_> might be through dmoz ;)
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  34. # [00:26] <webben_> oh i see, it's like Alexa Top 200, but everything: http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php
  35. # [00:26] <webben_> I guess even then there might be issues like: have academic collections (which might feature longdesc more, or whatever) asked to be removed from WayBack.
  36. # [00:27] <Philip`> (I think the mean HTML page size is about 30KB (or was it 60KB?) so you can look at tens of thousands in a few hours on a relatively normal internet connection)
  37. # [00:27] <webben_> that's pretty good
  38. # [00:29] <Philip`> It'd be nice if Google web search had a regexp feature like Google code search :-)
  39. # [00:29] <webben_> It certainly would.
  40. # [00:29] <webben_> You could construct some very interesting web services around that.
  41. # [00:30] <webben_> e.g. find microformated content for X
  42. # [00:31] <webben_> or find images with alt="*kitten*" ;)
  43. # [00:39] <zcorpan> hmm, safari doesn't reflow on className change :(
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  69. # [04:46] <G0k> any good fights today?
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  71. # [05:08] <Lachy> G0k, there's a bit of fighting in the comments http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt :-)
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  73. # [05:09] <Lachy> hi MikeSmith
  74. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> Lachy - hei
  75. # [05:10] <Lachy> did you ever receive a response to this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/0046.html ?
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  83. # [06:25] <jwalden> Hixie: ping
  84. # [06:41] <Hixie> hey
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  86. # [06:47] <jwalden> Hixie: regarding postMessage, did you intend for the event to be dispatched at the target window's document? I'd thought, when I requested it be moved to Window, that the dispatch target would change too
  87. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> Lachy - sorry, was having some machine troubles, then just gave up and went to lunch
  88. # [06:47] <jwalden> Hixie: I can send an email about it if you think it's reasonable, just wanted to get an opinion first
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  90. # [06:49] <Hixie> jwalden: i didn't consider them related
  91. # [06:49] <Hixie> jwalden: in fact thinking about it maybe it should fire at the body element
  92. # [06:49] <Hixie> jwalden: feel free to send mail, not sure we'd want it to fire at Window though
  93. # [06:50] <jwalden> hrm
  94. # [06:51] <G0k> Hixie: hate to keep bugging about it but i was wonder if you wanted to post that last email i sent you about networking-event-source to http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
  95. # [06:53] <jwalden> I guess I'll change my implementation to fire at document; if you thought a change to window might happen, I'd propose it, but I don't really like firing at document.body ;-)
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  97. # [06:56] <Hixie> G0k: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ automatically updates from my imap folders around 5am every day
  98. # [06:56] <Hixie> jwalden: heh
  99. # [06:57] <G0k> Hixie: er...i sent that email from 2 weeks ago but it's not there
  100. # [06:57] <Hixie> G0k: uri?
  101. # [06:57] <G0k> i never posted it to the main list, i sent it straight to you
  102. # [07:00] <Hixie> hm
  103. # [07:00] <Hixie> subjet line?
  104. # [07:00] <G0k> Re: about event-source
  105. # [07:00] <G0k> talks about true/false and some other stuff
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  107. # [07:00] <Hixie> oh
  108. # [07:01] <Hixie> you sent it straight to me
  109. # [07:01] <Hixie> so it'll never appear on the list
  110. # [07:01] <Hixie> i hide e-mails that weren't cc'ed publically
  111. # [07:01] <Hixie> (i get a lot of confidential e-mail about the spec that ends up in my folders)
  112. # [07:02] <G0k> ah
  113. # [07:03] <G0k> so should i reformulate and echo it to the list?
  114. # [07:03] <Hixie> nah it's still on my list, it just doesn't show up on the site
  115. # [07:03] <G0k> ah
  116. # [07:04] <G0k> oh and uh anyone interested in my webkit implementation can play with it http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14997
  117. # [07:04] <G0k> so...so there
  118. # [07:05] <Hixie> :-)
  119. # [07:05] <G0k> what do we want next? video elements?
  120. # [07:06] <Hixie> in webkit?
  121. # [07:06] <G0k> well i dunno i guess i kinda feel like just trying to implement stuff is a good way to find which parts of the spec are confused
  122. # [07:08] <G0k> but hey, maybe the "finalize first, implement later" method is better. :)
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  127. # [07:19] <Hixie> G0k: no, implemention in tandem with spec development is definitely the way we want it :-)
  128. # [07:19] <G0k> yeah so. :)
  129. # [07:20] <G0k> actually i think it might be cool to make some kind of more general reference implementation just for this purpose
  130. # [07:20] <G0k> maybe built on html5lib?
  131. # [07:20] <Hixie> i wouldn't recommend building a reference implementation browser
  132. # [07:20] <Hixie> you'll be here for decades
  133. # [07:21] <G0k> it doesn't need to work for real pages though
  134. # [07:21] <G0k> i feel like my concern is that if you start implementing in an existing thing
  135. # [07:22] <G0k> then you might accidentally create an installed base for a feature which will have to change
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  138. # [07:40] <jwalden> work in a non-release branch :-)
  139. # [07:41] <Hixie> G0k: eh, it's part of hte game
  140. # [07:42] <G0k> yeah so....get these specs finalized faster people! :)
  141. # [07:42] <jwalden> better > faster
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  143. # [07:43] <G0k> has anyone tried implementing any of WF2?
  144. # [07:43] <G0k> or...3 i guess
  145. # [07:44] <Hixie> opera has most of wf2 done
  146. # [07:44] <Hixie> and shipped, even
  147. # [07:44] <G0k> k. sounds like a place to start/continue
  148. # [07:45] <Hixie> see also the whatwg blog about a week ago or so
  149. # [07:45] <Hixie> someone's done a js version
  150. # [07:49] <G0k> input type="search" never made it into a spec?
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  159. # [09:33] * gsnedders had a dream of Hixie's deayh :\
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  161. # [09:52] <Dashiva> deayh?
  162. # [10:13] <mpt> Don't ask :-)
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  166. # [10:54] <Lachy> gsnedders, did you mean s/deayh/death/?
  167. # [10:55] <zcorpan> gsnedders: you're still on the html wg?
  168. # [10:58] <Lachy> zcorpan, was he thinking about leaving?
  169. # [11:02] <zcorpan> Lachy: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070824#l-457
  170. # [11:03] <Lachy> wow, looks like I have a lot of logs to read to find out why
  171. # [11:05] * zcorpan unsubscribed from www-style...again
  172. # [11:06] <Lachy> I haven't been reading www-style lately. what's happening on it?
  173. # [11:07] <zcorpan> not much interesting (to me anyway)
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  177. # [11:45] <Lachy> hmm. those IRC logs are depressing to read
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  182. # [12:31] <zcorpan> indeed
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  193. # [13:59] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/annotate.html
  194. # [14:00] <zcorpan> demo for the status updater js
  195. # [14:07] <zcorpan> wonder if getting innerHTML in html should serialize U+00A0 characters as &nbsp;
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  197. # [14:11] <zcorpan> ie7 and firefox do, safari and opera don't
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  200. # [14:29] <Lachy> zcorpan, is it a working demo? can I submit the form?
  201. # [14:29] * Quits: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980cb.pool.mediaWays.net) (Connection timed out)
  202. # [14:31] <Lachy> it didn't work
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  209. # [14:55] <gsnedders> Lachy: yes
  210. # [14:55] <gsnedders> zcorpan: no
  211. # [14:56] <Lachy> gsnedders, I can't remember what my question was
  212. # [14:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: "gsnedders, did you mean s/deayh/death/?"
  213. # [14:56] <Lachy> oh right
  214. # [14:57] <gsnedders> _really_ odd dream.
  215. # [14:57] <Lachy> gsnedders, was the "no" to zcorpan in response to you being on the HTMLWG?
  216. # [14:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: not having left the WG
  217. # [14:58] <Lachy> right, so you're staying for now. cool
  218. # [14:58] <Lachy> so how did Hixie die?
  219. # [14:58] <gsnedders> I dunno. I spent the whole dream trying to find that out.
  220. # [14:58] <Lachy> that's weird
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  222. # [15:01] <gsnedders> tantek told me he had died in here.
  223. # [15:01] <gsnedders> :\
  224. # [15:01] <Lachy> what? do you mean he told you in your dream?
  225. # [15:02] <gsnedders> yeah
  226. # [15:02] <gsnedders> dreaming about IRC :\
  227. # [15:02] <Lachy> that's just sad
  228. # [15:02] <gsnedders> totally.
  229. # [15:02] <Lachy> ... the fact that you're dreaming about IRC
  230. # [15:02] <gsnedders> I've only once dreamed about _anything_ related to computers before
  231. # [15:04] <Lachy> Did I make an appearance in your IRC dream?
  232. # [15:05] <gsnedders> hmmm…
  233. # [15:05] <gsnedders> I think so
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  242. # [16:19] <Lachy> zcorpan, yt?
  243. # [16:30] <Lachy> zcorpan, I created a basic form handler for the script, though it doesn't yet handle DB updating http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/status/update-markers.php
  244. # [16:31] <zcorpan> Lachy: nice!
  245. # [16:31] <Lachy> test it here http://lachy.id.au/temp/html5/annotate.html
  246. # [16:31] <Lachy> if you forget to enter an email and/or rationale, it will prompt you for it
  247. # [16:32] <zcorpan> Lachy: i think the idea is for the script to send an email to Hixie or someone who can approve the change before it updates the database
  248. # [16:33] <Lachy> ok, so it would have to somehow preserve the data temporarily somewhere while it awaits approval
  249. # [16:33] <zcorpan> yeah
  250. # [16:33] <zcorpan> perhaps also in the database but another table
  251. # [16:33] <zcorpan> or in the email
  252. # [16:34] <Lachy> it could check which fields have changed, and then include those fields in the query string
  253. # [16:34] <zcorpan> yeah
  254. # [16:35] <zcorpan> wonder what would happen if you make another change before the first was approved
  255. # [16:36] <Lachy> that wouldn't matter, they wouldn't get committed until the approval. So it would depend on the order in which Hixie approved them
  256. # [16:36] <zcorpan> i guess
  257. # [16:37] <Lachy> maybe it should have some authentication system so Hixie doesn't have to approve all changes. Authorised users could just commit directly
  258. # [16:37] <Lachy> though we'd need that anyway, so it couldn't be hacked
  259. # [16:38] <zcorpan> perhaps the js could figure out what the changes were so that the whole shebang isn't sent back to the php script
  260. # [16:38] <zcorpan> whatever is simplest
  261. # [16:40] <Lachy> easy way would be to include an empty value for the intial value so it doesn't get submitted if selected: <label class=initial><input ... name=foo value="" checked> TBW</label>
  262. # [16:42] <zcorpan> aha
  263. # [16:42] <zcorpan> radio buttons with empty values aren't submitted?
  264. # [16:44] <zcorpan> hmm, seems they are, just with no value... :)
  265. # [16:45] <Lachy> no, I was wrong. They are submitted
  266. # [16:45] <zcorpan> but the php script doesn't need to figure out what the changes were
  267. # [16:45] <zcorpan> just ignore the ones with no value
  268. # [16:45] <Lachy> yeah, that makes it easy
  269. # [16:46] <zcorpan> ok, i'll implement that in the js
  270. # [16:46] <Lachy> I'll update the PHP to check for empty values
  271. # [16:47] <zcorpan> the value "none" means that the initial was something else and the marker is to be removed
  272. # [16:51] <Lachy> I've updated the PHP
  273. # [17:01] <zcorpan> js updated too
  274. # [17:01] <zcorpan> i have a send email script in php somewhere
  275. # [17:02] <zcorpan> that sends emails encoded as utf-8 and works correctly with funny characters in headers
  276. # [17:06] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/mail-utf8.txt
  277. # [17:07] <zcorpan> although i guess the email address itself might well contain non-ascii characters too nowadays
  278. # [17:07] <Lachy> I deployed the new script on my server, it seems to work
  279. # [17:08] <zcorpan> nice
  280. # [17:08] <Lachy> I'm not sure how non-ascii email addresses work or if PHP would support them
  281. # [17:08] <zcorpan> probably not worth worrying about :)
  282. # [17:09] <zcorpan> i guess very few systems allow non-ascii in email addresses
  283. # [17:14] <Lachy> should we have this email comit-watchers as well?
  284. # [17:14] <Lachy> after it's confirmed
  285. # [17:15] <zcorpan> yeah that would be good
  286. # [17:15] <zcorpan> twitter?
  287. # [17:15] <Lachy> yes, that too
  288. # [17:15] <Lachy> I'm just implementing the email script now and to have it email me for testing
  289. # [17:17] <zcorpan> ok
  290. # [17:18] <Lachy> your email script was missing the format=flowed parameter
  291. # [17:21] <zcorpan> hmm, do you do wrapping of the body?
  292. # [17:22] <zcorpan> or does php do that?
  293. # [17:23] <zcorpan> $message = wordwrap($message, 72); ?
  294. # [17:26] <zcorpan> linebreaks in headers should be \r\n also
  295. # [17:26] <zcorpan> between headers that is
  296. # [17:27] <zcorpan> not sure if php wordwrap() is RFC 2646 compliant though :)
  297. # [17:30] <zcorpan> it's not
  298. # [17:31] <zcorpan> words shorter than 998 shouldn't be wrapped
  299. # [17:33] <zcorpan> soft linebreaks should also be SP CRLF
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  301. # [17:38] * zcorpan finds http://drupal.org/node/154218 which might be interesting
  302. # [17:41] <Lachy> probably doesn't matter for this, since I can control the line lengths manually. does the php mail() funciton replace \n with \r\n properly?
  303. # [17:41] <zcorpan> dunno
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  305. # [17:46] <zcorpan> php should just do this boring processing by default :)
  306. # [17:47] <zcorpan> with options about encoding, format, and some others, and then Do The Right Thing
  307. # [17:48] <webben> PHP is not exactly the DTRTiest language ;)
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  309. # [17:48] <zcorpan> indeed
  310. # [17:53] <Lachy> I suppose we should add some check to make sure only the values TBW, WIP, SCS and none will be accepted. At the moment, it doesn't do much input validation, which could be a problem
  311. # [17:54] <zcorpan> yeah
  312. # [17:54] <Lachy> should we restrict the length of the rationale, especially if we're going to twitter it?
  313. # [17:54] <zcorpan> seems reasonable
  314. # [17:54] <zcorpan> what does twitter accept?
  315. # [17:54] <Lachy> 140 chars total
  316. # [17:55] <zcorpan> we might want some context text in the twitter messages
  317. # [17:55] <Lachy> so if we send the twitter message as: "Status Update: $rationale", that leaves 125 chars for the rationale
  318. # [17:55] <zcorpan> yeah
  319. # [17:56] <Lachy> I'll add a comment to the PHP, update the JS to make the rationale input maxlength=125
  320. # [17:56] <Dashiva> Is twitter 140 chars or 140 bytes, though?
  321. # [17:59] <gsnedders> chars
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  323. # [18:02] <zcorpan> Lachy: i already updated the js
  324. # [18:03] <zcorpan> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070524#l-461
  325. # [18:11] <Lachy> I've committed the current PHP versions, feel free to fix some of the bugs, it's getting a bit late for me
  326. # [18:11] <Lachy> there's a TODO list at the top of the file
  327. # [18:11] <zcorpan> ok
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  331. # [18:17] <Lachy> we'll need to wordwrap the rationale in the email. Just do wordwrap($rationale,72) and then fix then append a space before the new lines (if any)
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  333. # [18:23] <Lachy> use wordwrap("Rationale: $rationale", 72, '\n', false);
  334. # [18:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@63.164.47.227)
  335. # [18:25] <Lachy> then, if you want to be really cautious, do wordwrap($body, 998, '\n', true); to ensure no line is longer than that which could happen with a long URL
  336. # [18:25] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  337. # [18:25] <zcorpan> not wordwrap("Rationale: $rationale", 72, ' \r\n', false); ?
  338. # [18:26] <zcorpan> maxlength is 125 already :)
  339. # [18:26] <zcorpan> we could cut at 125 before wrapping if it's longer
  340. # [18:26] <Lachy> yeah, I know, I just left it there as a reminder for when we do the twitter messages, and we need to do input validation for it
  341. # [18:27] <Lachy> probably where I check for empty $email and $rationale, we should also check for strlen($rationale) < 125 and check for a valid email address
  342. # [18:28] <zcorpan> yeah
  343. # [18:28] <othermaciej> good morning everyone
  344. # [18:29] <zcorpan> morning othermaciej
  345. # [18:29] <Lachy> should probably use mb_strlen also
  346. # [18:29] <Lachy> hi othermaciej
  347. # [18:29] <othermaciej> I've been away all weekend - any exciting flamewars?
  348. # [18:29] <Lachy> no, not since your last one with ROb
  349. # [18:29] <Lachy> :-)
  350. # [18:31] <Lachy> oh, but there's nearly a flamewar in the whatwg blog comments
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  356. # [18:52] <Lachy> zcorpan, we should probably use this UTF-8 wordwrap function instead http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.wordwrap.php#57090
  357. # [18:53] <zcorpan> Lachy: aha, cheers
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  359. # [18:54] <Lachy> and it would probably be easier if all the word wrapping was handled in the sendMail function in mail-utf8.php
  360. # [18:54] <Lachy> that way, it doesn't need to be handled individually for each email we generate
  361. # [18:55] <zcorpan> ok
  362. # [19:02] <zcorpan> though utf8_wordwrap doesn't have a cut argument
  363. # [19:03] <Lachy> oh, well, it shouldn't be too hard to modify it
  364. # [19:03] <Lachy> I can probably do that tomorrow if you like
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  367. # [19:08] <zcorpan> i'll look into it for a bit later today
  368. # [19:11] <Lachy> hmm. This comment suggests that wordwrap() doesn't preserve existing line breaks, but I just tested it and it seems to preserve them http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.wordwrap.php#53403
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  399. # [21:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: you have escape() on 2 more places... :)
  400. # [21:07] <Hixie> but those are for data: URIs
  401. # [21:07] <Hixie> aren't they ok?
  402. # [21:07] <Hixie> btw i updated the API docs for /issues/ to include the lower-level protocol
  403. # [21:09] <markp> Hixie: are you actively involved in html5lib coding?
  404. # [21:09] <Hixie> no
  405. # [21:10] <markp> who is?
  406. # [21:10] <Hixie> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  407. # [21:10] <Hixie> see "project owners"
  408. # [21:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: no, they're not ok. e.g. ☺ becomes data:text/html,%u263A instead of data:text/html,%E2%98%BA (you might even want to do data:text/html;charset=utf-8,... )
  409. # [21:15] <Hixie> aah
  410. # [21:15] <Hixie> wtf is %u1234
  411. # [21:15] <zcorpan> it's what escape() does
  412. # [21:15] <zcorpan> it replaces \ with % i think
  413. # [21:15] <kingryan> markp: you have a question about html5lib?
  414. # [21:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: changed
  415. # [21:16] <Hixie> man we need to kill escape()/unescape() then
  416. # [21:16] * zcorpan is happy now :)
  417. # [21:16] <Hixie> or at least escape()
  418. # [21:16] <Hixie> i guess unescape() is fine
  419. # [21:16] <zcorpan> it's not
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  421. # [21:17] <Hixie> does it not do +s or something?
  422. # [21:17] <zcorpan> %E2%98%Ba becomes \E2\89\BA
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  424. # [21:17] <Hixie> oh it interprets as latin1?
  425. # [21:17] <Hixie> interesting
  426. # [21:17] <zcorpan> yeah, basically
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  428. # [21:24] <Hixie> afk
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  430. # [21:29] <markp> kingryan: yeah, i was talking with sam ruby about adding some test cases
  431. # [21:29] <markp> and enhancing its functionality as a validator
  432. # [21:29] <markp> for example, teaching it which attributes are allowed/required in which elements
  433. # [21:29] <kingryan> sounds good to me
  434. # [21:30] <kingryan> if you add test cases I'll update the ruby version :)
  435. # [21:30] <markp> and then later maybe some stuff around inline content vs. strictly inline content, etc.
  436. # [21:31] <markp> to start with, i'd like to refactor the parserError logging
  437. # [21:31] <markp> to use constants enumerated in constants.py
  438. # [21:31] <markp> we did that in feedvalidator and later used the constant names to link to documentation pages
  439. # [21:31] <markp> very useful
  440. # [21:32] <kingryan> nice
  441. # [21:32] <markp> any objection?
  442. # [21:32] <kingryan> not from me
  443. # [21:32] <kingryan> I work solely with the ruby port, though
  444. # [21:32] <markp> i see
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  470. # [22:56] <zcorpan> per rfc2646, what do you do with words that are longer than 998 characters? insert a soft linebreak?
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  484. # [23:46] <Esine> I read slashdot daily and I've seen AKAImBatman (Intelligent Blogger) post often. His sig says "Before you adopt Silverlight, read the WHATWG specs [whatwg.org]. Article coming soon...". Are you here AKAImBatman? :) What I came here to ask was about your thought about Silverlight.
  485. # [23:47] <Esine> I was on a computer event and there was a Microsoft stand where some microsoftie demoed Silverlight to me
  486. # [23:47] <Dashiva> I'd venture to guess the thoughts are related to avoiding single-vendor lockin :)
  487. # [23:48] <Esine> It really seemed quite nice and much better than Flash. I'm no lover (not hater) of Microsoft or proprietary technology, but still Silverlight seemed to be quite open. If the Mono guys can really make a good silverlight plugin for browsers and such I don't see much problem with it
  488. # [23:48] <zcorpan> how is it open?
  489. # [23:49] <Esine> I code websites a lot and I code to HTML 4.0 Strict (and some WHATWG extensions) and don't use Flash or anything, but.. really, Silverlight doesn't seem too bad if I can run it on every platform and I can develop software for it on every platform
  490. # [23:49] <Esine> well I *think* they have documented it all in Microsoft Developer Network (msdn.microsoft.com), but I'm not sure. I mean how else would the Mono guys do it?
  491. # [23:50] <Esine> So, I need you to tell me why is it bad, if it is open enough and most likely 90% people in 5 years will have it installed on their computers (because it will ship with a windows update most likely)
  492. # [23:50] <kingryan> Esine: can anyone else build silverlight implementations?
  493. # [23:50] <Esine> kingryan, yes.
  494. # [23:51] <Esine> See the moonlight website: http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight
  495. # [23:51] <Esine> it's Silverlight implementation on Mono (C# interpreter for UNIX)
  496. # [23:51] <kingryan> so anyone = anyone using .Net or a .Net clone
  497. # [23:51] <Esine> and a browser plugin for it. It's sort of unstable right now but they're improving at rapid rate. I tried it out a month ago and only half of the examples on microsoft's site worked but..
  498. # [23:51] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.196.77)
  499. # [23:52] <Esine> yes I understand that's not such a nice thing, but I understand you don't NEED to code in .Net to develop on it
  500. # [23:53] <Esine> You can call the functions in pure JavaScript if you wish, but .Net bytecode is for performance. I personally don't intend to code in .Net or any other managed toy language like that, but I can't see it as such a bad thing if it really and truly works under all platforms with no problems
  501. # [23:54] <kingryan> "working on all platoforms" is not the same as "being open"
  502. # [23:54] <Esine> very true indeed
  503. # [23:54] <Esine> but still it doesn't seem to matter in real life (see Flash for example)
  504. # [23:55] <Esine> I'm not sure how open really it is though
  505. # [23:55] <Esine> since they say everything is documented on MSDN
  506. # [23:55] <kingryan> flash has succeeded because it can do things that other technologies can't (right now)
  507. # [23:55] <Esine> what we're missing right now is a high performance technology we can use on Web
  508. # [23:55] <kingryan> flash is useful for online video because browsers don't have a compatible way to do it today, but they hopefully will in the future
  509. # [23:56] <Esine> you say SVG or Canvas, well guess what, they're slow as fsck (at least the current implementations on Konqueror, Opera and Mozilla)
  510. # [23:56] <Esine> and they can't do everything Flash (or Silverlight for that matter) can
  511. # [23:56] <kingryan> there's also http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video
  512. # [23:56] <kingryan> <video>
  513. # [23:56] <Esine> does WHATWG have a better solution than those?
  514. # [23:56] <Esine> I'll check that
  515. # [23:56] <kingryan> and <audio>
  516. # [23:56] <zcorpan> 3d canvas
  517. # [23:57] <kingryan> and sure, the implementations are currently slow, but that doesn't mean they can't be made to be fast
  518. # [23:57] <kingryan> at this point interoperability would be more important
  519. # [23:57] <Esine> I understand that but you can't get anyone to use them if they are slow
  520. # [23:57] <webben> kingryan: Flash popularity has more to do with an install base than theoretical interoperability.
  521. # [23:58] <Esine> since they offer nothing really exciting to the Web compared to other technologies, even though the other ones may not be as open
  522. # [23:58] <kingryan> webben: doesn't a large install base lead to interop?
  523. # [23:58] <webben> kingryan: Well no, not necessarily.
  524. # [23:59] <webben> kingryan: it just lowers the usability barrier on key platforms
  525. # [23:59] <kingryan> it seems to have helped flash, at least for online video
  526. # [23:59] <othermaciej> Silverlight is not an open standard
  527. # [23:59] <othermaciej> Microsoft controls it
  528. # [23:59] <othermaciej> maybe other people can build implementations today
  529. # [23:59] <othermaciej> but Microsoft is free to change it at any time
  530. # [23:59] <othermaciej> once it is no longer in their interests to allow clones
  531. # Session Close: Tue Aug 28 00:00:00 2007

The end :)