/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-08-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 28 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Esine> true..
  4. # [00:00] <webben> othermaciej: Hmm. But presumably that would only apply to subsequent versions? (I haven't looked at the licence at all. I just know the Mono project has been developing a Linux version.)
  5. # [00:00] <othermaciej> <canvas> is fast enough to code simple 3D games with
  6. # [00:01] <Esine> othermaciej, actually no. I can't even run 20 _wireframe_ polygons on screen at a good FPS rate
  7. # [00:01] <othermaciej> Esine: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/
  8. # [00:01] <Esine> yes I've seen that
  9. # [00:02] <Esine> but that isn't really complex, is it?
  10. # [00:02] <Esine> it doesn't render many polygons per frame
  11. # [00:02] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-0a5a5b14fa091754) ("The computer fell asleep")
  12. # [00:03] <Esine> you say it doesn't matter since no one is going to code a Quake 3 on <canvas>. That's true, but still there are a lot other things where you need to be able to draw graphics very fast
  13. # [00:03] <zcorpan> we will have 3d canvas in due course, based on open gl es
  14. # [00:03] <othermaciej> in some screens there's probably quite a few more polygons than that, and I'm getting 30-50 fps
  15. # [00:03] <kingryan> Esine: I don't think performance is a big deal at this point. canvas can be made fast later.
  16. # [00:04] <webben> I wonder hows fast 3D (http://www.web3d.org/ ) is.
  17. # [00:04] <webben> s/3D/X3D/
  18. # [00:04] <othermaciej> Safari's <canvas> impl is pretty fast, when doing 3D your bottleneck is more likely JS execution time doing the math
  19. # [00:04] <othermaciej> anyway
  20. # [00:04] <Esine> oh yes that too
  21. # [00:05] <Esine> JavaScript is very slow to parse and run at real time
  22. # [00:05] <othermaciej> open standards based web technology is indeed behind proprietary technologies in some areas
  23. # [00:05] <Esine> Flash and Silverlight run compiled bytecode which again is really fast
  24. # [00:05] <othermaciej> a big goal of HTML5 is to close the gap
  25. # [00:05] <Esine> so that's one problem too..
  26. # [00:05] <othermaciej> even if you might still need Flash or Silverlight for some things, more things will be doable in pure web tech
  27. # [00:05] <othermaciej> there's no fundamental reason precompiled bytecode needs to be faster than JS
  28. # [00:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: so i was looking at flickr, and it's not clear to me what it would mean to take it offline, as an app
  29. # [00:05] <othermaciej> and modern JS engines are pretty fast
  30. # [00:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: is there really a problem with requiring that an offline app be written to work with a single top-level URI?
  31. # [00:06] <Philip`> Esine: http://blog.vlad1.com/archives/2007/07/28/149/ is a SVG vs Silverlight demonstration, in case you haven't seen it before
  32. # [00:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'd like to be able to view my own flickr photos, add tags and captions, and "upload" new photos (scheduling for real upload next time I'm online) when I don't have a net connection
  33. # [00:06] <webben> Hixie: Wouldn't it be a sort of synced iPhoto?
  34. # [00:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: right now I use iPhoto for that a lot of the time, basically only because it works offline
  35. # [00:07] <Esine> Philip`, no I haven't thanks
  36. # [00:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: ok but why would you want multiple top-level URIs for that?
  37. # [00:07] <Philip`> (Canvex doesn't draw 3D polygons at all - it's basically 2D, but extended vertically a bit)
  38. # [00:07] <kingryan> Hixie: have you looked at the flickr organizr ?
  39. # [00:07] <Hixie> kingryan: uri?
  40. # [00:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, flickr's current UI uses lots of different URIs
  41. # [00:07] <kingryan> http://flickr.com/photos/organize/
  42. # [00:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: should we say they need to rearchitect their whole site to support offline mode?
  43. # [00:08] <Philip`> (I tried porting a JVM-based software 3D renderer to <canvas>, but JavaScript is just far too slow at doing all the matrix calculations to handle 3D polygons)
  44. # [00:08] <kingryan> it's all flash, but if you could take that offline it'd be really useful
  45. # [00:08] <othermaciej> anyway, I need to go get coffe
  46. # [00:08] <othermaciej> will be back
  47. # [00:08] <webben> Multiple URIs is good, since it allows bookmarking.
  48. # [00:08] <kingryan> Hixie: you might need a flickr account, though
  49. # [00:08] * othermaciej is now known as om_coffee
  50. # [00:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: they will have to rearchitect anyway, they'd have to have all kinds of offline-specific things like an offline database, coping with updates, synchronising with conflicts, etc
  51. # [00:08] * Quits: dev0_ (i=Tobias@unaffiliated/icefox0) ("dev0_ has no reason")
  52. # [00:09] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137)
  53. # [00:09] <Philip`> webben: I don't think the performance of X3D is something that really exists - it's just a way of describing scenes, and the performance depends entirely on the implementation
  54. # [00:09] <Hixie> kingryan: it won't let me see it (i haven't uploaded any photos)
  55. # [00:09] <Hixie> kingryan: was there anything specific about it you wanted me to look at?
  56. # [00:10] <webben> Philip`: I see what you mean.
  57. # [00:10] <kingryan> Hixie: nothing in specific, but it is like an "online iphoto"
  58. # [00:10] <Hixie> kingryan: ah ok
  59. # [00:10] <Esine> Philip`, I did a JavaScript and <canvas> 3D renderer/engine that does solid lightning and animation, but as I said before I could only get like 30fps with a _five_ polygon object on screen
  60. # [00:10] <Philip`> (i.e. it's like talking about the performance of RTF files, or something, so it's not relevant except to the extent that it dictates the architecture of the implementations)
  61. # [00:10] <kingryan> if they could take that offline, do the oranizing, then resync, it could be a useful use case
  62. # [00:10] <Hixie> webben: i'm not sure what it really means to talk about bookmarking the state of an offline app
  63. # [00:10] <Esine> that's why I was so interested in Silverlight.. because it seemed so fast
  64. # [00:11] <webben> Hixie: I guess it depends on how weblike the offline app is. Bookmarking makes perfect sense with offline web pages.
  65. # [00:11] <Philip`> OpenGL <canvas> would be much better - I had hundreds of texture-mapped polygons with specular lighting and reflective water underneath, going at 60fps with no problem :-)
  66. # [00:12] <Hixie> webben: i dont really see what it would mean to e.g. bookmark the state of gmail
  67. # [00:12] <Esine> Philip`, you mean you had that on the opengl <canvas> or normal 2d <canvas>?
  68. # [00:12] <webben> That's because Gmail isn't a remotely REST-like app.
  69. # [00:13] <webben> very little state is stored in simple URIs.
  70. # [00:13] <Philip`> Esine: The OpenGL one
  71. # [00:13] <Esine> is there any patch for adding opengl support for browsers?
  72. # [00:13] <Esine> Philip`, which browser?
  73. # [00:13] <webben> Flickr doesn't seem like that.
  74. # [00:13] <Hixie> webben: i don't see this as a problem...
  75. # [00:14] <Philip`> Esine: There's an experimental implementation in Mozilla, but I don't know if it still works, and you probably have to compile Firefox yourself to use it
  76. # [00:14] <webben> Hixie: I guess it's a problem if you're trying to maintain a consistent interface between offline and online.
  77. # [00:14] <Esine> Philip`, is it in the SVN trunk?
  78. # [00:14] <Hixie> webben: i would understand having the photo viewing side bookmarkable, since there you are viewing photos
  79. # [00:14] <Philip`> Esine: http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/extensions/canvas3d/
  80. # [00:14] <Hixie> webben: but that's usually someone else's photos
  81. # [00:14] <Esine> thanks
  82. # [00:15] <Hixie> webben: for the app part -- changing tags, etc -- i don't really see what you would bookmark
  83. # [00:16] <webben> Hixie: Well, I guess I'd assume you'd still be able to browse your collection offline.
  84. # [00:16] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@posom.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  85. # [00:16] <Hixie> webben: that would be a LOT of data to download
  86. # [00:16] * Philip` predicts that OpenGL <canvas> would be great fun for anyone who cares about security (either breaking it or fixing it) in browsers...
  87. # [00:17] <Hixie> webben: but hm
  88. # [00:17] <webben> Hixie: I was kind of envisaging permanent sync.
  89. # [00:17] <Philip`> (2D <canvas> is bad enough for security already)
  90. # [00:17] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@posom.com)
  91. # [00:17] <webben> If it's all about upload, I'm not sure how much value it would add to the existing tools.
  92. # [00:18] <Esine> Philip`, oh? mind telling me about that?
  93. # [00:18] <Esine> security implications of <canvas>
  94. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Intranet images mainly
  95. # [00:19] <Philip`> Esine: It's not really <canvas>'s fault, it's just the implementations - they tend to corrupt memory and crash, or expose random chunks of browser memory to scripts, because they have bugs (or use libraries with bugs) or forget to deal with certain cases
  96. # [00:19] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  97. # [00:20] <Hixie> webben: interesting
  98. # [00:20] <Esine> oh..
  99. # [00:21] <Philip`> Esine: They're also big DOS targets - you can try creating massive bitmaps, or painting hugely complex shapes, and browsers tend to just freeze or crash instead of handling it gracefully
  100. # [00:24] <webben> Hixie: OTOH, I guess it would be free whereas the iPhoto plugin for Flickr actually costs money.
  101. # [00:26] * om_coffee is now known as othermaciej
  102. # [00:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: assuming that flickr wanted back/forward to work, and wanted people to be able to send each other URLs to specific photos or photosets or profile pages etc, then the only way they could have a single top-level URI for offline mode is to use a single URI for the whole site
  103. # [00:27] <othermaciej> with fragment IDs
  104. # [00:27] <othermaciej> it seems very intrusive for offline support to require doing that to your site
  105. # [00:29] <Philip`> (Incidentally, I'd like to try implementing some subset of X3D if browsers provided a lower-level (OpenGL) rendering API - I don't really know anything about it, but it looks generally sensible and it'd be useful when you want convenience at the expense of flexibility)
  106. # [00:30] <othermaciej> so instead of http://flickr.com/photos/othermaciej/329780552/ you would have to have URLs like http://flickr.com/#photos/othermaciej/329780552
  107. # [00:30] <othermaciej> and the server would only ever serve one actual page per person
  108. # [00:30] <othermaciej> I can imagine all sorts of ways this could be bad for their caching strategies
  109. # [00:37] <Philip`> Esine: By the way, have you seen http://polyhedra.org/poly/ which does 3D polygons at a reasonable speed when it's not just showing PHP errors?
  110. # [00:37] <Esine> no I haven't..
  111. # [00:37] <Esine> I'll bookmark that page
  112. # [00:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
  113. # [00:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't see how to do the offline stuff in a simple yet workable fashion without having a single top-level URL
  114. # [00:39] <Hixie> but clearly we'll have to do so
  115. # [00:39] <Philip`> Esine: (Also there's http://matt.west.co.tt/files/canvastastic/canvastastic_beta_1/eg/robot.html which is a less reasonable speed but not too awful)
  116. # [00:40] <Esine> yeah well that's around the same speed I was getting
  117. # [00:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: I will think on it more and reply to other aspects of your email, I've been asked to look at offline support more at work
  118. # [00:40] <othermaciej> the dancing robot doesn't look half bad in my Safari 3 build
  119. # [00:41] <othermaciej> I don't know what the FPS is
  120. # [00:41] <kingryan> the robot looks good in safari 3.0.3
  121. # [00:42] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/3dmodel/example0.html pushes Canvastastic harder, but unfortunately it very much doesn't work in anything except Firefox
  122. # [00:43] <Philip`> (since it uses E4X to parse Collada models, and some JS1.7 bits just for fun)
  123. # [00:43] <Esine> yeah can't see anything in Opera
  124. # [00:45] <Philip`> I get 1.5fps
  125. # [00:54] <markp> wow, i so totally called this 3 months ago: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/05/02/silly-season#comment-9288
  126. # [00:56] <Dashiva> Oh it's a markp
  127. # [00:57] <Hixie> i love the comment a bit lower down on that page
  128. # [00:57] <Hixie> saying "Matt Cutts : Google :: Silverlight : The Future"
  129. # [00:57] <Hixie> i can't tell if they're saying that silverlight is the best thing ever or if they're saying that silverlight is merely one tiny part of the future
  130. # [00:58] <Dashiva> Maybe it's SAT form. "Silverlight is to the future The Future as..."
  131. # [00:58] <markp> that's not the worst of it
  132. # [00:58] <markp> it's stuff like http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/05/02/silly-season#comment-9310 that makes me realize how far away i am from most people
  133. # [00:59] <Dashiva> I recognize that comment, but I can't imagine how I managed to read through all the preceding ones without going mad
  134. # [01:01] <markp> it deteriorated rapidly after that
  135. # [01:02] <markp> as blogs are prone to do
  136. # [01:03] * moeffju[afk] is now known as moeffju
  137. # [01:04] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-248-164.dsl.pipex.com) (Connection timed out)
  138. # [01:06] <Dashiva> I think the comment that blog comments have too low barrier of entry had something going for it
  139. # [01:07] <Philip`> Maybe that's why people started using CAPTCHAs like "7 - 2 = ?", to weed out the kind of people who leave comments at certain less-cultured sites
  140. # [01:09] <markp> i once threatened to make captchas based on strunk and white
  141. # [01:09] <Philip`> You could extend it to something like "d^2x/dy^2 - 5 x = 0; y = ?" if you want to raise the barrier a little
  142. # [01:11] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-242-247.dsl.pipex.com)
  143. # [01:14] <Dashiva> Make them write alt text for the captcha
  144. # [01:16] <Philip`> Make them write alt text for one of the 3000 unlabelled holiday photos that the blog's owner uploaded to Flickr
  145. # [01:17] <Dashiva> I wonder if anyone has contacted Flickr for statistics :)
  146. # [01:17] <markp> actually i've thought about using mechanical turk for adding alt text
  147. # [01:18] <markp> it's a skill, it can be taught, individuals could get good at it and get paid for it
  148. # [01:18] <webben> One could certainly use something like Google Image Labeller as some sort of CAPTCHA. reCAPTCHA uses captcha responses to OCR books.
  149. # [01:18] <markp> recaptcha++
  150. # [01:19] <Dashiva> Any captcha can be broken by an ample supply of cheap human labor, after all
  151. # [01:19] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  152. # [01:19] <webben> throw Google Image Labeller together with something like http://research.microsoft.com/asirra/
  153. # [01:19] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  154. # [01:20] <markp> seriously though, imagine if flickr (yahoo) sponsored an ongoing project to add really good alt text to images as people uploaded them
  155. # [01:20] <markp> photo owners could be notified when their images got tagged and could accept/reject/edit them
  156. # [01:21] <webben> markp: Yep that's one (of many ways) Flickr could start producing alt text.
  157. # [01:21] <Hixie> do blind people care?
  158. # [01:22] <webben> Hixie: Some do. Some don't. Bit like other people really.
  159. # [01:22] <markp> there's more to flickr than images
  160. # [01:22] <Hixie> i don't understand why anyone would want photos described. they're boring enough when you can see them.
  161. # [01:22] <webben> flickr turns photos into social objects
  162. # [01:22] <markp> people add annotations, tags, comments
  163. # [01:23] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.105.75)
  164. # [01:23] <markp> all of which are text
  165. # [01:23] <Hixie> yeah i never understood the point of the tags and annotations either
  166. # [01:23] <Hixie> the captions and comments make sense
  167. # [01:23] <Hixie> if you're showing pictures to your friends
  168. # [01:23] * Hixie shrugs
  169. # [01:24] <markp> anything that increases the amount of accessible content in the world is a good thing
  170. # [01:24] <markp> the street will find its own uses for it
  171. # [01:24] <Hixie> i don't really see how alt text increases the accessibility of a photo
  172. # [01:24] <Hixie> it's like lyrics for a song
  173. # [01:25] <Hixie> ok, so you can see the lyrics
  174. # [01:25] <Hixie> still doesn't give you the song
  175. # [01:25] <webben> I think people get too hung up on the irreducibility of experiences.
  176. # [01:25] <kingryan> Hixie: but if you can't hear the song, but everyone's talking about it, wouldn't it be nice to have the context of the lyrics?
  177. # [01:25] <webben> Often the song, the image are less important (or only as important) as they social meaning and context anyhow
  178. # [01:25] * markp quietly hums "we didn't start the fire"
  179. # [01:26] <Hixie> kingryan: i have a "disability" in that i cannot recognise fashionable clothing from unfashionable clothing. My solution is not to have people describe to me what is fashionable and what isn't. My solution is to not care.
  180. # [01:26] * Hixie shrugs again
  181. # [01:27] <Philip`> I would guess the solution of having a female decide what you should wear is a more common one for that problem :-)
  182. # [01:28] <Hixie> my girlfriend actually has the same "disability" as i do. our solution is to get her gay boyfriend to help us pick clothes when necessary. :-)
  183. # [01:28] <othermaciej_> tags are pretty good for photos, though they don't seem as nice for most other things
  184. # [01:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: oh i use tags a ton on iPhoto. I just don't see the point in tags for other people's photos.
  185. # [01:29] <webben> othermaciej: Do you not find tags useful for bookmarking?
  186. # [01:30] <Hixie> othermaciej: but then, i don't really care about photos that aren't relevant to me, so...
  187. # [01:30] <mpt> Hixie, do you ever use Google Image Search?
  188. # [01:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.177) (Nick collision from services.)
  189. # [01:31] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  190. # [01:31] <Hixie> mpt: yeah, that's a great example of where tagging isn't necessary.
  191. # [01:32] <Hixie> even in iPhoto, image tagging is really just a workaround for the computer's inability to recognise content in the photo
  192. # [01:32] <Hixie> i don't enjoy manually tagging photos, i shouldn't have to
  193. # [01:32] <webben> Good example of the blind caring about the social context of photography was a recent blindtech question: a couple of blind parents looking for a photo sharing site that didn't require a visual CAPTCHA to register, so they could upload some photos of their newborn
  194. # [01:32] <Hixie> i should just be able to ask the computer for every photo in the collection with a cat in it
  195. # [01:32] <Hixie> or every photo that has an element in focus
  196. # [01:32] <Hixie> (or doesn't)
  197. # [01:32] <mpt> How would you know that it has a cat in it, if "cat" is in the tags but not in the title/description?
  198. # [01:32] <webben> Hixie: you want Riya and Polar Rose ;)
  199. # [01:33] <webben> http://www.riya.com/ and http://www.polarrose.com/
  200. # [01:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: they are interesting in flickr because (a) it makes searching work better than just captions and titles would, given that AI image anaysis does not exist yet;
  201. # [01:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: and (b) because they provide a categorization scheme, so I can easily see "all of my friends' pictures of dogs" or the like
  202. # [01:34] <Hixie> webben: again, those are their own photos, and the alt text wouldn't really help insofar as i can tell -- how could text possibly convey anything useful?
  203. # [01:34] <othermaciej> webben: I don't find boomkarking useful, so I'm not a good person to ask
  204. # [01:34] <Hixie> mpt: image analysis
  205. # [01:34] <webben> Hixie: which photo is which, primarily.
  206. # [01:34] <mpt> ha ha
  207. # [01:34] <Hixie> mpt: (same way a human can tell)
  208. # [01:34] <Hixie> webben: that's a title
  209. # [01:34] <webben> othermaciej: ah okay :)
  210. # [01:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: again i'm just talking about my personal preference, but personally, i have never found search on flickr to be useful
  211. # [01:35] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  212. # [01:35] <Hixie> the image on my blog being a great example of how it's not useful :-)
  213. # [01:36] <webben> Hixie: Titles don't necessarily identify what images actually are. (They might be a pun etc... )
  214. # [01:36] <webben> also, you can display images without titles
  215. # [01:36] <webben> in which case you'd need alt to tell them apart
  216. # [01:36] <Hixie> mpt: but, text that identifies the image is useful to everyone, not just if you don't have images.
  217. # [01:36] <Hixie> er
  218. # [01:36] <webben> (e.g. Flickr photostreams)
  219. # [01:36] <Hixie> s/mpt/webben/
  220. # [01:37] <Hixie> note that i'm not arguing against including alt text here
  221. # [01:37] <webben> Hixie: It's more useful to people who can't see the image, since to some degree you can tell images apart just by looking at them.
  222. # [01:37] <Hixie> i'm just saying i don't understand why anyone would care for pure alt text (as opposed to text that is shown near the picture even when you do have images)
  223. # [01:37] <Hixie> webben: *shrug*
  224. # [01:37] <mpt> I thought we were talking about tags
  225. # [01:37] <mpt> My apologies if we weren't
  226. # [01:38] <webben> Hixie: Yeah. I can't really see why you wouldn't want an image described.
  227. # [01:38] <mpt> tags would be lousy alt= text
  228. # [01:38] <Hixie> mpt: regarding tags, all i was saying was that they are an annoying and hopefully temporary workaround for searching photos.
  229. # [01:38] <webben> Then again, my best friend recently finished writing about a third of the catalogue for an eighteenth-century art exhibition. So I've got well-used to reading long descriptions ;)
  230. # [01:39] <othermaciej> Hixie: I find it useful for ego search :-)
  231. # [01:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Where "temporary" means "until we've solved AI"? :-)
  232. # [01:39] <Hixie> webben: that's another example of how the alt text for a photo should be visible (and isn't "alt text")
  233. # [01:39] <othermaciej> Hixie: or finding pictures of specific other people
  234. # [01:39] <webben> (It's one of the reasons I think that Lady of Shalott example isn't that good. In practice, images of the Lady are all interestingly different.)
  235. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: right
  236. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: a specific form of ai, image analysis, which is actually quite advanced
  237. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: i wouldn't call it AI really
  238. # [01:40] <webben> Hixie: Well, not really. It's just that analysis of an image mixes in description of it.
  239. # [01:40] <Hixie> webben: the example in the spec is purely decorative, imho
  240. # [01:40] <webben> Strictly, you'd need yet more description to understand the image.
  241. # [01:40] <webben> I suppose it's partly a matter of print vs online conventions. In print, decorative paintings tend to be credited.
  242. # [01:41] <Hixie> webben: i don't honestly see that any amount of description can explain a photo or painting.
  243. # [01:41] <Philip`> People seem to still have problems doing image analysis to detect a human face in an image, when it's not facing straight at the camera
  244. # [01:41] <webben> Hixie: I think that's like saying: I don't see how a photo can represent the Grand Canyon.
  245. # [01:41] <Hixie> webben: indeed
  246. # [01:41] <webben> experiences are not reducible in their entirety
  247. # [01:41] <Hixie> webben: i agree
  248. # [01:41] <webben> but they are reducible enough that the reduction may be useful
  249. # [01:42] <Hixie> webben: but that reduction need not be hidden from those who can see the unreduced form
  250. # [01:42] <Hixie> webben: (especially since if it's not hidden from them, they can improve it, wiki style)
  251. # [01:43] <webben> Hixie: Well that's true. (And a strong argument for allowing authors to label explicitly visible text as an alternative/complement.) But not all designers will want all that text.
  252. # [01:43] <Hixie> webben: not all designers of what?
  253. # [01:43] <webben> pages
  254. # [01:43] <Hixie> webben: i thought we were talking about photo gallery pages like flickr
  255. # [01:43] <webben> Also, there's no reason why sighted people shouldn't have access to long descriptions on another page
  256. # [01:44] <Hixie> (or at least, sites where the image is the point)
  257. # [01:44] <webben> Hixie: Oh. I thought we were talking about alt's for photos generally.
  258. # [01:44] <Hixie> webben: another page is equivalent to hiding the text in the alt attribute, which i content is bad.
  259. # [01:44] <Hixie> contend
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  261. # [01:45] <webben> Hixie: Well, not hiding the text can also be bad, because in practice when you write text alongside an image you risk assuming the image.
  262. # [01:45] <othermaciej> I think in the case of photo galleries, most text that would be useful to someone who can't consume the image would be useful to those who can as well
  263. # [01:45] <webben> (and hence failing to reduce the experience at all)
  264. # [01:45] <webben> othermaciej: probably. But not when e.g. in a slideshow.
  265. # [01:46] <othermaciej> and offering the ability to add visible text will probably in practice lead to better text than the ability to add normally hidden text
  266. # [01:46] <Hixie> webben: the rusk that the text will assume the image is far less imho than the risk that the text will be omitted altogether.
  267. # [01:46] <Hixie> risk
  268. # [01:46] <Hixie> in a slideshow you wouldn't show the text at all
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  270. # [01:46] <webben> Hixie: well exactly, but you would want the alternative text.
  271. # [01:46] <Hixie> you also wouldn't expect a blind person to use a slideshow
  272. # [01:46] <webben> i don't see why not
  273. # [01:47] <webben> it's just a sequential progress through images
  274. # [01:47] <Hixie> it's a specifically visual representation!
  275. # [01:47] <othermaciej> flickr's slideshow feature doesn't show any of the text
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  277. # [01:47] <webben> it's a sequence is all
  278. # [01:47] <othermaciej> the photostream is also a sequence
  279. # [01:47] <webben> yep
  280. # [01:47] <Hixie> the semantic might be a sequence, but the presentation is a visual one
  281. # [01:48] <webben> partly
  282. # [01:48] <Hixie> now another stylesheet might be aural, sure
  283. # [01:48] <Hixie> but then it's not a slideshow.
  284. # [01:48] <othermaciej> the reason for a slideshow to exist is that showing the images in large format on a single page is not convenient for visual consumption
  285. # [01:48] <webben> e.g. a lot of slideshows have an audio component
  286. # [01:48] * Hixie doesn't understand the point webben is trying to make
  287. # [01:48] <othermaciej> lots of text at once vs. one bit of text at a time does not have the same kind of difference in usability
  288. # [01:48] <webben> othermaciej: well it can also be about the order, depending on the sort of slideshow.
  289. # [01:49] <Hixie> anyway
  290. # [01:49] <Hixie> i'm surprised nobody has yet mailed public-html quoting this and telling DanC that i'm clearly showing lack of care for the disabled and should be banned from the group
  291. # [01:50] <Hixie> the complainers are clearly not running at their usual speed today
  292. # [01:52] <kingryan> where's andy mabbett when you need him?
  293. # [01:55] <kingryan> ok, maybe that's only funny in the microformats channel
  294. # [01:56] * hober laughed
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  297. # [02:12] <Philip`> Lachy: About "IE 5.x [is] so insignificant, [it's] not even worth looking at": http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2007/August/browser.php suggests it's about as (in)significant as all versions of Opera combined
  298. # [02:13] <webben> Philip`: One possible issue with that is that they may not be efficiently filtering out bots that claim to be IE 5.5.
  299. # [02:13] <webben> (never mind opera masquerading as other browsers)
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  315. # [03:50] <Lachy> Philip`, IE5.x is also obsolete, Opera isn't.
  316. # [03:52] <othermaciej> I like to look at this chart: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=6
  317. # [03:52] <othermaciej> but there are other considerations like upward vs. downward trend, and share in particular markets
  318. # [03:53] <othermaciej> note, it shows Opera 9.x as significantly higher than IE 5.5
  319. # [03:54] <othermaciej> I find the "thecounter" stats dubious
  320. # [03:54] <othermaciej> their 10% "Netscape comp." category seems too large even for an "other" total, let alone an actual different browser
  321. # [03:57] <othermaciej> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0 seems pretty in line with the general view of the top 4 browser engines
  322. # [04:01] <othermaciej> incidentally wikipedia seems to agree with me that this particular usage share survey is the most credible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_browsers
  323. # [04:05] <Lachy> zcorpan, see RFC 3676, which obsoletes 2646. I think the delsp parameter is what you need when splitting long words, though I particularly wouldn't worry about it for our needs
  324. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - interesting to see how high up the Nintendo Wii is in the "Operating System Market Share" chart there
  325. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2
  326. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> and how up up the browser charts Opera Mini is, as well as other mobile browsers
  327. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> especially that they now have more share than particular versions of desktop browsers
  328. # [04:19] <karlUshi> http://www.xitimonitor.com/en-us/browsers-barometer/ie7-and-firefox-2-july-2007/index-1-2-3-103.html
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  338. # [05:20] <Lachy> Hixie, do you have PHP4 or 5 running on status.whatwg.org?
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  340. # [05:33] <Hixie> Lachy: yes
  341. # [05:33] <Hixie> (dunno which one)
  342. # [05:34] <Lachy> hmm. the response header tells me: Server: Apache/2.0.54 (Unix) PHP/4.4.7 mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7e mod_fastcgi/2.4.2 DAV/2 SVN/1.4.2
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  384. # [10:17] <Lachy> zcorpan, yt?
  385. # [10:20] <Lachy> zcorpan, I completely rewrote the emailing code. made it object oriented, dealt with the word wrapping and fixed a bunch of other stuff
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  402. # [11:38] <jwalden> there's a lunar eclipse right now if you're in CA
  403. # [11:39] <Lachy> also if you're in eastern Aus
  404. # [11:43] <krijnh> Also if you're in NL
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  409. # [12:42] <zcorpan> Lachy: i did some changes to the php yesterday, but utf8_wordwrap() still needs a 4th argument
  410. # [12:42] <Lachy> utf8_wordwrap doesn't work well at all, I did some testing with it and it's not needed
  411. # [12:42] <zcorpan> aha
  412. # [12:42] <zcorpan> ok
  413. # [12:43] <zcorpan> wordwrap() is ok?
  414. # [12:43] <Lachy> the existing wordwrap function seems to work reasonably well
  415. # [12:43] <zcorpan> good then
  416. # [12:43] <Lachy> there's only one bug that I found, but it's never likely to occur
  417. # [12:43] <zcorpan> split inside a multibyte character?
  418. # [12:44] <Lachy> if you have a long line longer than 990 characters, without any white space, and the bytes 990-991 are part of a multibyte char
  419. # [12:44] <zcorpan> right
  420. # [12:44] <zcorpan> the url will be ascii only
  421. # [12:44] <Lachy> yeah
  422. # [12:44] <zcorpan> and the rest won't contain that long lines
  423. # [12:45] <Lachy> since it gets urlencoded
  424. # [12:45] <zcorpan> yeah even that
  425. # [12:45] <zcorpan> ok
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  427. # [13:01] * Lachy is going to write some twitter posting code
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  438. # [15:04] <Lachy> PHP is annoying, at least the way it's configured on my server. I need to use constructors and destructors in PHP5, but the curl functions only work when I use PHP4 :-(
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  500. # [23:01] <zcorpan> Lachy_: the DelSp parameter was not added to handle lines longer than 998 characters. i'm still not sure what generating agents are supposed to do with such lines
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  504. # [23:17] <markp> kingryan: i've checked in revision 962 of html5lib
  505. # [23:17] <kingryan> markp: I see that
  506. # [23:18] <kingryan> I'll updated the ruby version this evening
  507. # [23:18] <markp> ok
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  520. # Session Close: Wed Aug 29 00:00:00 2007

The end :)