/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 01 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:19] * Lachy wonders what Rob's criteria is for a page to be considered XHTML content?!
  9. # [00:20] <Lachy> he seems to think that anything that isn't well formed isn't XHTML, and so can be ignored in any study. So effectively, 100% of pages that he would classify as XHTML would be well formed
  10. # [00:27] <jgraham> Indeed. I don't think that's a sensible point of view but I'm not sure it's worth discussing
  11. # [00:28] <Lachy> of course it's not worth discussing, it's worth ignoring
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  14. # [00:30] <webben> How broken can XHTML be and still actually be XHTML?
  15. # [00:31] <jgraham> webben: In the context of the discussion, it's about authorial intent.
  16. # [00:32] <jgraham> authors who use XHTML doctypes presumably think they are authoring XHTML
  17. # [00:32] <webben> jgraham: I doubt that's true of the majority of documents actually.
  18. # [00:33] <jgraham> Why are they labelling their documents as XHTML then?
  19. # [00:33] <othermaciej> it's hard to tell how to detect XHTML intent
  20. # [00:33] <othermaciej> but if it has an XHTML doctype, an XHTML namespace declaration and some elements with minimized syntax, odds are good there was some intent
  21. # [00:33] <othermaciej> or if it has a "valid xhtml!" button
  22. # [00:34] <webben> jgraham: you're assuming it's a deliberate decision rather than a) what their authoring tool does automatically or b) copy and paste or c) they have no idea that there's a difference between XHTML and HTML
  23. # [00:34] <webben> given the adoption of faux-XHTML by common tools like WordPress, I suspect case a) is probably the most widespread
  24. # [00:34] <jgraham> c is more-or-less a superset of a and b
  25. # [00:35] <jgraham> actually I guess not
  26. # [00:35] <webben> they may or may not go together.
  27. # [00:36] <jgraham> Even if the author has delegated responsibility to their tool author you have to wonder why tools would label documents as XHTML if they did not intend them to conform to XHTML
  28. # [00:37] <webben> jgraham: Sure. But that's a rather different thing to /authorial/ intent.
  29. # [00:39] <jgraham> OK, but the essential point is that at some stage people have made a choice to label the documents as XHTML even though they probably do not conform to the XHTML spec and cannot be processed by XML tools
  30. # [00:39] <webben> (And I think the answer boils down to a sort of marketing gimmick.)
  31. # [00:39] <webben> WordPress devs don't seem to spend a lot of effort on XHTML conformance.
  32. # [00:40] <webben> jgraham: Sure. But those people often aren't the authors of the documents.
  33. # [00:43] <jgraham> webben: Let me restate my position because I don't think I have made it clear. As far as I am concerned documents that are delivered in such a way that they are processed by the XML pipeline in browsers are XHTML.
  34. # [00:43] <jgraham> Other documents are pseudo-XHTML
  35. # [00:44] <jgraham> However these are usually the interesting documents to find out what people who think they are producing XHTML do -
  36. # [00:44] <jgraham> unlike Rob, I think Philip`looked at exactly the right thing
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  39. # [00:46] <webben> jgraham: But do WordPress devs really think they are producing XHTML? And are the resultant documents, typically highly corrupted by plugins and commenters etc, really representative of what WordPress devs are aiming to do?
  40. # [00:47] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Connection timed out)
  41. # [00:47] <webben> And, perhaps more importantly, how much difference would it really have made if they'd chosen an HTML doctype?
  42. # [00:47] <jgraham> I don't know what the wordpress devs think they are doing. I do seem to remember that #some people tried to convince them to relabel their documents as HTML and they refused
  43. # [00:48] <webben> (yeah, I was one of them ;) ... one of the key defences is that their showcase blogs only failed to be XHTML because of their plugins ... but there aren't that many WP blogs without plugins)
  44. # [00:48] <webben> I think the conclusion is that WordPress uses the XHTML doctype as a fashion statement.
  45. # [00:49] <jgraham> to me? It makes no difference either way as long as they understand that for every difference that exists between XHTML-as-XML and HTML their "XHTML" will behave like HTML
  46. # [00:49] <jgraham> I think saying "XHTML can be served in such a way that it is processed as HTML" is harmful because it forces everyone to know that
  47. # [00:50] <jgraham> list of differences
  48. # [00:50] <webben> yep, it's highly problematic.
  49. # [00:55] <webben> But if pseudo-XHTML is largely adopted as a fashion statement by tool devs, then if you want to know what problems people are trying to solve with XHTML, XML-served XHTML is likely to be a more interesting sample.
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  51. # [00:56] <webben> The one caveat there being that many of the languages one's supposed to only be able to use with XHTML can actually be served with text/html content (e.g. MathML, Ruby).
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  54. # [00:59] <jgraham> The thread wasn't about the problems that XML can solve though, it was about whether to endorse XHTML as text/html
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  56. # [01:00] <othermaciej> I think the spec should just say you MUST NOT send content that isn't conforming HTML5 (classic serialization), even if it is conforming XHTML5
  57. # [01:01] <othermaciej> as text/html that is
  58. # [01:01] <webben> Sorry, I haven't actually read the thread. I was just reacting to what was being said on here.
  59. # [01:01] <webben> What would "endorse" mean in this context.
  60. # [01:01] <jgraham> webben: I have great sympathy for not reading the thread :)
  61. # [01:02] <jgraham> "XHTML documents served as text/html result in interoperable behavior
  62. # [01:02] <jgraham> in typical cases, so that constraint [XHTML must be sent using an XML MIME type] is too strong. Please change
  63. # [01:02] <jgraham> it to "SHOULD be sent..." "
  64. # [01:02] <jgraham> is roughly what DanC said
  65. # [01:03] <webben> othermaciej: What would that actually mean, as a conformance criterion though? That tools (e.g. Apache? WordPress) cannot serve HTML 4.01 /or/ HTML5 and be conforming?
  66. # [01:04] <webben> Or is it purely tautologous? That when serving HTML5 as text/html, tools must serve the text/html serialisation of HTML5?
  67. # [01:05] <othermaciej> webben: it would mean that a document is not conforming to the HTML5 specification if it is sent as text/html and is not conforming to the HTML serlialization of HTML5, even if it happens to be conforming to the XML serialization
  68. # [01:05] <othermaciej> webben: this would be a change from the previous registration of the text/html MIME type
  69. # [01:06] <webben> How? The existing registration doesn't mention HTML5 presumably?
  70. # [01:06] <webben> (The actual conformance criterion sounds okay, I just don't see how it's a change rather than an addition.)
  71. # [01:07] <othermaciej> the existing registration says that you may send HTML of any version up to 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 as text/html
  72. # [01:07] <webben> but that's consistent, since HTML5 is later than either.
  73. # [01:09] <othermaciej> it's actually kind of vague
  74. # [01:09] <othermaciej> see the RFC
  75. # [01:09] <othermaciej> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2854.txt
  76. # [01:09] <othermaciej> "The text/html media type is now defined by W3C Recommendations;
  77. # [01:09] <othermaciej> the latest published version is [HTML401]. In addition, [XHTML1]
  78. # [01:09] <othermaciej> defines a profile of use of XHTML which is compatible with HTML
  79. # [01:09] <othermaciej> 4.01 and which may also be labeled as text/html."
  80. # [01:10] <othermaciej> HTML5 would update the definition of the text/html media type to include the HTML serialization of HTML5, but not the XML serialization
  81. # [01:10] <othermaciej> I'm not sure whether it could meaningfully remove old allowed serializations from what is legal for the media type
  82. # [01:10] <othermaciej> because I don't know how media type registration rules work
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  84. # [01:11] <webben> othermaciej: I guess that's my point. It sounds like that would be a bureaucratic hassle with no real-world advantages.
  85. # [01:11] <othermaciej> it does look like the existing RFC does not allow HTML 3.2 or HTML 2
  86. # [01:12] <webben> othermaciej: ? which bit to you gather that from?
  87. # [01:12] <webben> *do you
  88. # [01:12] <othermaciej> there's not a whole lot of MUST there
  89. # [01:13] <webben> indeed
  90. # [01:13] <othermaciej> webben: the "Published specification:" section
  91. # [01:13] <othermaciej> it's written sloppily
  92. # [01:13] <othermaciej> it's unclear what other specifications, if any, alsocover the media type
  93. # [01:13] <webben> I'd have though if they meant to exclude 3.2 they would have said "The text/html media type is now defined by the latest version of the W3C Recommendation for HTML" (or something)
  94. # [01:14] <webben> rather than talking about "Recommendations" (plural)
  95. # [01:14] <webben> or actually said: "You should not serve 3.2 ..."
  96. # [01:14] <othermaciej> in any case it's standard practice for W3C specifications to define their associated MIME type
  97. # [01:14] <othermaciej> well, it does mention two recommendations, HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0
  98. # [01:15] * webben resists the urge to comment that it's a bad habit of W3C specs to allude to MIME types that they might register someday...
  99. # [01:15] <webben> othermaciej: ah, I see how your reading works.
  100. # [01:16] <webben> othermaciej: i think it's a bit of a stretch on such vague text though
  101. # [01:16] <othermaciej> webben: well, it's pretty clear what this registration allows, but it's totally unclear what, if anything, it disallows
  102. # [01:17] <othermaciej> the only actual MUST is related to line breaks
  103. # [01:17] <othermaciej> and here's the worst abuse of must in a spec ever:
  104. # [01:17] <othermaciej> "User agents executing such
  105. # [01:17] <othermaciej> scripts or programs must be extremely careful to insure that
  106. # [01:17] <othermaciej> untrusted software is executed in a protected environment."
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  115. # [01:53] <Philip`> Hmm, I never knew Thunderbird automatically strips out " (was: ...)" from subjects when replying
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  124. # [02:49] <Lachy> hmm. I wonder why people are wasting their time discussing "HTML 4.02" and widely unsupported SGML features.
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  126. # [03:06] <othermaciej> how many NETs can dance on the head of a pin?
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  160. # [09:53] <zcorpan> hmm, wonder if we can limit text/html sniffing to "text/html", "text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" and "text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" so that when you declare utf-8 it's not sniffed
  161. # [09:54] <zcorpan> or are there feeds in the wild that are declared as "text/html; charset=utf-8"?
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  188. # [14:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Error loading the folder list: Internal Server Error. Let Hixie know."
  189. # [14:54] <zcorpan> oh, now it worked (3rd time)
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  200. # [17:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: i fail to parse this sentence (in a note in #writing): "It is suggested that newlines be inserted after the DOCTYPE and any comments that aren't in the root element."
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  203. # [18:06] <deltab> zcorpan: "We suggest that you insert newlines after the DOCTYPE and after each comment that isn't in the root element."
  204. # [18:09] <zcorpan> aha
  205. # [18:10] <zcorpan> i read "it is suggested" as in "we have heard"
  206. # [18:11] <zcorpan> but doing so for comments after the root will append LF characters to the html element each time it is parsed and serialized
  207. # [18:13] <zcorpan> not a biggie but the rest of the section goes to great lengths to ensure that things round-trip
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  209. # [18:23] <zcorpan> hmm, they are appended to the body -- not html
  210. # [18:44] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@58.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  211. # [18:45] <zcorpan> hmm, i should remember to take out my own address from the To field when replying to myself :|
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  215. # [19:00] <zcorpan> not sure i'm fond of the ambigous ampersand thing
  216. # [19:00] <zcorpan> it's more straightforward to require it to be escaped
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  243. # Session Close: Sun Sep 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)