/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 03 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  29. # [06:41] <Lachy_> I added some more features to the content sniffing page. It will now load data from the query string (like the live dom viewer) and shows the browser output in an iframe
  30. # [06:42] <Lachy_> http://html5.lachy.id.au/content-sniffing/?%3Cfeed%3Etest2%3C/feed%3E
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  44. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: running a copy of the validator.nu software is not hard if your host allows permanantly memory-resident processess and has mod_jk
  45. # [10:27] <hsivonen> what happened with the validator.nu outage was that the shared host was taken down for scheduled maintenance one day
  46. # [10:27] <hsivonen> then something went wrong and the outage took 2 days instead of planned 5 hours
  47. # [10:28] <hsivonen> since the maintenance went long, I couldn't make sure validator.nu was back up before I flew out to Budapest
  48. # [10:29] <hsivonen> and then mod_jk was missing
  49. # [10:30] <hsivonen> and then giving my password to a random internet cafe computer was unacceptable security-wise and GPRS roaming didn't work in Romania, so it took a while to find working wifi connectivity to get everything back up
  50. # [10:30] <hsivonen> I'm going to investigate moving away from the shared host to avoid maintenance breaks when I happen to be traveling
  51. # [10:31] <hsivonen> my apoligies to everyone who tried to use the service during the outage
  52. # [10:31] <hsivonen> apologies even
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  59. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Re: accesskey UI: BBEdit/TextWrangler show shortcut keys on dialog buttons when the command key is held down.
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  63. # [11:46] <hsivonen> I'm going to implement POSTing documents to validator.nu. Is Content-Location on POST a good way to indicate the base URI of the POSTed document? (the RFC leaves Content-Location on POST undefined)
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  68. # [12:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: are there any alternatives? :)
  69. # [12:52] <zcorpan> why do you need the base uri?
  70. # [12:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the alternative would be along the lines of X-Content-Location
  71. # [12:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the base URI is needed for the DTD-loading mode
  72. # [13:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also, if Hixie really goes down the road of requiring conformance checkers to load images, then the base URI will be needed for HTML5 as well
  73. # [13:00] <hsivonen> (although I'm kinda hoping Hixie won't go there :-)
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  80. # [13:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could opt to not support loading DTDs in such cases
  81. # [13:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I could. but picking a HTTP header name and sticking its value in a SAX InputSource is so embarrassingly easy that I feel I should do it for completeness
  82. # [13:19] <hsivonen> the harder part is checking that the pre-existing code that expects to see sane URIs doesn't break too much when a URI is missing
  83. # [13:40] <Lachy> hi hsivonen, how was your holiday?
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  85. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: the holiday was fine
  86. # [13:53] <Lachy> cool :-)
  87. # [13:55] <Lachy> re POST and Content-Location header, I don't understand how you intend it to be used. Are you expecting clients to send the Content-Location header with their POST request?
  88. # [13:57] <Lachy> and is the HTML file supposed to be posted in the body of the request?
  89. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes and yes
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  91. # [13:58] <Lachy> ok, but regular web browsers wouldn't send that header. Which clients would you expect to do so?
  92. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: blogging systems, command line tools and such non-browser Web service clients
  93. # [13:59] <Lachy> ok
  94. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: I intend to implement back end support for form POST, too
  95. # [14:00] <hsivonen> (but I don't have a satisfactory design for form POST front end UI yet)
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  99. # [14:33] <annevk_zeist> the omit-alt comments are fun
  100. # [14:33] <zcorpan> hey annevk_zeist
  101. # [14:34] <zcorpan> alles goed?
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  103. # [14:36] <annevk_zeist> ja, op zich wel
  104. # [14:36] <annevk_zeist> beetje dingen opruimen van vakantie enzo
  105. # [14:36] <zcorpan> oke
  106. # [14:37] <annevk_zeist> en nog steeds geen baggage uit Madrid...
  107. # [14:37] <gsnedders> still? (or have I misunderstood)
  108. # [14:37] <annevk_zeist> yeah, still no luggage
  109. # [14:38] <gsnedders> just not been there to get it, or…?
  110. # [14:38] <annevk_zeist> neh, they're messing it up
  111. # [14:38] * gsnedders sighs
  112. # [14:38] <gsnedders> it's been too long since I've read such languages
  113. # [14:38] <annevk_zeist> supposedly it would go to my parents, but they haven't received anything yet and trying to reach KLM luggage service on the phone is not really possible
  114. # [14:39] <gsnedders> ergh.
  115. # [14:44] <annevk_zeist> anything interesting happened?
  116. # [14:45] <gsnedders> annevk_zeist: oh, just one or two flamewars on public-html. not really interesting by WG standards, though
  117. # [14:46] <annevk_zeist> Lachy, yt?
  118. # [14:46] <annevk_zeist> gsnedders, heh
  119. # [14:46] <Lachy> yo
  120. # [14:46] <gsnedders> annevk_zeist: mainly on the subject of making @alt optional
  121. # [14:46] <annevk_zeist> Lachy, I think it would be nice if the FAQ became a wiki page
  122. # [14:47] <Lachy> ok. If you make the page, I can set up redirection
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  124. # [14:48] <annevk_zeist> k, I'll look into it when I have my laptop again
  125. # [14:48] <annevk_zeist> (it's in Utrecht, not lost with the luggage)
  126. # [14:53] * gsnedders really needs some sort of hosting on a stable domain for all the browser tests I'm going to write
  127. # [14:55] <annevk_zeist> you can get firstname.html5.org
  128. # [14:55] <gsnedders> meh. geoffrey is a horrible name :)
  129. # [14:56] <gsnedders> annevk_zeist: gsnedders would be preferable, but I wouldn't complain with geoffrey
  130. # [14:56] <annevk_zeist> I suppose I could break the convention...
  131. # [14:56] * annevk_zeist ponders
  132. # [14:59] * gsnedders has got annevk_zeist pondering. is that safe? :P
  133. # [15:01] <annevk_zeist> as long as you're not here :p
  134. # [15:06] <annevk_zeist> I'll get you gsnedders.html5.org later; need my laptop first
  135. # [15:06] <gsnedders> annevk_zeist: yeah, having your own computer would be useful; thanks, though :)
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  137. # [15:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: Re: offline: Isn't if more Web-like for each app view to have its own URI instead of having one top-level URI and a lot of Ajaxy dynamism on the one "page"?
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  139. # [15:57] <annevk> ah, 2033 new e-mails
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  150. # [16:39] <brianherman> hello
  151. # [16:39] <brianherman> everyone having a good labor day?
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  160. # [18:30] <gsnedders> labour day>
  161. # [18:31] <gsnedders> s/>/?/
  162. # [18:32] <Lachy> gsnedders, apparently it's labor day in the US. I think it's a public holiday
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  178. # [20:38] <annevk> hmm, one angry e-mail to KLM and I suddenly get a call from Spain
  179. # [20:38] * annevk wonders if they're connected
  180. # [20:51] <Lachy> annevk, what's KLM?
  181. # [20:51] <Lachy> btw, this article seems to be nothing more than FUD http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/i-dont-think-that-you-understand-firefox3-vulnerable-by-design
  182. # [20:54] <Lachy> the port scanning script is the only one that seems reasonable, but it depends on whether or not readystate ever fires for 3 LOADING when the request hasn't been allowed
  183. # [20:54] <annevk> airline company
  184. # [20:55] <annevk> it doesn't go to readyState 3 obviously (that would also allow more than just port scanning)
  185. # [20:55] <Lachy> yeah, I didn't think it would
  186. # [20:56] <virtuelv_> but restricting browsers from setting the Content-Access-Control header in the request seems reasonable, if over the top
  187. # [20:57] <Lachy> virtuelv_, why would it matter if it was sent as a request header?
  188. # [21:00] <virtuelv_> Lachy: You're right. It shouldn't
  189. # [21:00] <virtuelv_> The TRACE method is used to invoke a remote, application-layer loop-
  190. # [21:00] <virtuelv_> back of the request message. The final recipient of the request
  191. # [21:00] <virtuelv_> SHOULD reflect the message received back to the client as the
  192. # [21:00] <virtuelv_> entity-body of a 200 (OK) response.
  193. # [21:01] <virtuelv_> but, understanding that correctly, offsite TRACE would mostly be impossible anyway
  194. # [21:01] <virtuelv_> or rather, not
  195. # [21:01] <virtuelv_> the point being:
  196. # [21:01] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-6-210-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  197. # [21:02] <virtuelv_> (You can theoretically get content back, but the only thing you could possibly steal were the cookies sent to the server in the first place)
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  199. # [21:03] <Lachy> IIRC, cookies aren't sent with XHR requests to other domains, are they?
  200. # [21:06] <virtuelv_> There is exactly one mention: "User agents which implement this specification should take care not to expose other trusted data (cookies, HTTP header data) inappropriately."
  201. # [21:06] <virtuelv_> whatever that means
  202. # [21:07] <virtuelv_> if the meaning is that cookies are not to be sent, then I'd say the spec ought to state this explicitly
  203. # [21:07] <Lachy> hmm. I'm not sure, but it would seem crazy if browsers did, since it would open up a huge security risk
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  205. # [21:07] <annevk> headers and content body and such is still a big vague atm I'm afraid
  206. # [21:13] <annevk> now everyone can fix bugs: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ
  207. # [21:14] <annevk> Lachy, you were ok with this, right?
  208. # [21:15] <Lachy> yeah
  209. # [21:17] <Lachy> I'll set up redirection from /faq/ on the blog later
  210. # [21:18] <annevk> k
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  216. # [21:49] <annevk> jgraham_, found a bug in your tool: http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2F2007%2F09%2Ftmb-overview&algorithm=html4&scope=1&headers=1
  217. # [21:49] <annevk> jgraham_, it doesn't respect <tbody>
  218. # [21:49] <annevk> jgraham_, or maybe a bug in scope="rowgroup", dunno
  219. # [21:50] <annevk> jgraham_, it also has encoding issues
  220. # [21:58] <annevk> It's fascinating how RB claims <input usemap> to be implemented in WebKit and Trident
  221. # [21:58] <annevk> to see*
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  224. # [22:17] <annevk> I think the <img> section should give some advice on smileys
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  227. # [22:20] <zcorpan> <img alt=:-) title=Smile src=smile.gif> ?
  228. # [22:20] <annevk> for instance
  229. # [22:20] * annevk always wonders whether ASCII art is appropriate there
  230. # [22:21] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-228.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  231. # [22:21] <jgraham_> annevk: What do you expect the behaviour to be?
  232. # [22:21] * jgraham_ doesn't want to fix the "wrong" problem
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  234. # [22:22] <annevk> jgraham_, I expect stuff like "Day 1" not be repeated until the end of the table, it solely applies to the <tbody> it's in
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  236. # [22:22] <zcorpan> annevk: i think it's appropriate. it's what you would use if you didn't use an image, and it's quite common in "plain text"
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  239. # [22:25] <jgraham_> Oh, I see what you mean
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  242. # [22:33] <annevk> good :)
  243. # [22:33] <annevk> I was actually wondering if the algorithm could be made even more nice for the lazy author so I could omit scope= there too
  244. # [22:34] <annevk> scope=rowgroup is implicit if the first row of a rowgroup contains a single header cell
  245. # [22:36] <annevk> zcorpan, well, there are Unicode smileys...
  246. # [22:37] <gsnedders> do homework, or write test cases? hmmm…
  247. # [22:37] <annevk> ☹☺☻
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  250. # [22:44] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, but they aren't very common in "plain text", probably wasn't what the author typed in, and there are only 3 of them
  251. # [22:45] <zcorpan> forums often have dozens of smileys
  252. # [22:46] <zcorpan> using exactly what was typed in as alt has the advantage that it round trips copy-and-paste
  253. # [22:56] <annevk> hmm, specialcasing <input type=hidden> is ugly
  254. # [22:56] <annevk> doable, but ugly
  255. # [22:56] <zcorpan> indeed
  256. # [22:56] <zcorpan> ie already specialcases it, it allows hidden inputs in head
  257. # [22:56] <annevk> oh
  258. # [22:57] <zcorpan> doesn't make it less ugly but proves that it is doable :)
  259. # [22:57] <annevk> I was thinking that maybe form.elements could be filled up during parsing
  260. # [22:57] <zcorpan> yeah, i was pondering about alternative approaches too
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  268. # Session Close: Tue Sep 04 00:00:00 2007

The end :)