/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 04 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-253-126.dsl.pipex.com) ("Dear #python: lolololololololololol")
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  7. # [00:11] * Parts: anne (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  8. # [00:12] <jgraham_> annevk: I think the heading information for your table is almost right now
  9. # [00:13] <jgraham_> The finalk thing is that the <th>Day 2</th> has "Day 1" as one of its headings (and so on down the page)
  10. # [00:13] <jgraham_> This is because these headers aren't assigned any heading information from the scope algorithm
  11. # [00:14] <jgraham_> and HTML 4 says "In the absence of header information from either the scope or headers attribute, user agents may construct header information according to the following algorithm"
  12. # [00:14] <annevk> how would Day 2 get Day 1? Day 1 has an explicit scope...
  13. # [00:15] <jgraham_> From the implicit algorithm.
  14. # [00:15] <annevk> I do get how Day x gets Location, estimated time, etc. although that's not desired
  15. # [00:15] <jgraham_> I think it's an incorrect reading of the HTML 4 spec, but I don't know what the right reading is.
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  17. # [00:16] <annevk> I'm not sure why you think there's absense of scope or headers attribute
  18. # [00:17] <annevk> I suppose I need something like <th scope=rowgroup colspan=4 headers>Day x</th> to override the Location, Height, ... headings
  19. # [00:17] <jgraham_> Because, at the moment, my implementation assumes that ""In the absence of header information from either the scope or headers attribute" applies to the cell we are trying to assign a heading to
  20. # [00:17] <annevk> assuming <th headers> works like that
  21. # [00:18] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  22. # [00:18] <annevk> jgraham_, yeah, so you look up and find a <th>, but that <th> can't be the header of the header because it has a different scope...
  23. # [00:18] <jgraham_> in the case of the <th> cell containing "Day 2" there is no information from any scope or headers attribute that assigns heading information to that cell
  24. # [00:18] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@121-72-130-6.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  25. # [00:19] <jgraham_> annevk: But does HTML 4 actually say that?
  26. # [00:19] <annevk> not sure
  27. # [00:19] <annevk> it also seems that the headers given in <thead> are not applied to the four columns...
  28. # [00:20] <jgraham_> My reading is that if a cell has no heading information supplied from headers or scope you then do the row/column search ignoring scope or headers attributes
  29. # [00:20] <annevk> this is the case in the HTML5 algorithm though
  30. # [00:20] <jgraham_> annevk: agreed
  31. # [00:20] <annevk> HTML5 actually has exactly how I want it
  32. # [00:20] <jgraham_> My imp. of the HTML 5 algorithm seems to get that right
  33. # [00:20] <annevk> including the scope=rowgroup headers not getting the <thead> headers
  34. # [00:21] * annevk wonders if that always makes sense
  35. # [00:21] <webben> Probably not.
  36. # [00:21] <jgraham_> My conclusion from playing with a few tables on the net is that nothing always makes sense
  37. # [00:22] <webben> You could have a header cell for a rowgroup in a row that contained summary information/totals for the rowgroup
  38. # [00:22] <webben> I think I've seen tables like that in print.
  39. # [00:22] <annevk> I'm not sure if that's correct usage though
  40. # [00:23] <webben> correct usage of what?
  41. # [00:23] <annevk> of HTML tables
  42. # [00:23] * Quits: Ducki (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d9.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  43. # [00:23] <webben> Why aren't you?
  44. # [00:24] <annevk> because it doesn't make much sense to me to put summaries in headers
  45. # [00:24] <webben> annevk: I don't see why not. A good example would be demographics.
  46. # [00:24] <webben> say you have area then pop in the thead
  47. # [00:25] <webben> then you have each rowgroup as a continent with total pop
  48. # [00:25] <webben> then you have countries in each rowgroup row
  49. # [00:25] <webben> with their respective pop
  50. # [00:26] <webben> Don't forget that a td can be a header simultaneously with being a data cell.
  51. # [00:28] <annevk> that's not actually clear from HTML4
  52. # [00:28] <webben> annevk: yes it is. it's stated in the DTD
  53. # [00:28] <webben> is there anything that contradicts that?
  54. # [00:29] <annevk> the prose doesn't really support that comment
  55. # [00:30] <webben> annevk: I think trying to read the comments against the prose doesn't make much sense. Specifications aren't meant to be read to be self-contradicting. :) (They might be self-contradicting by accident, but you don't seem to be arguing that's the case here.)
  56. # [00:32] <annevk> I'm not sure why it doesn't make sense. Comments, notes, examples, etc. are all non-normative. (Although in this specific case nothing much is normative and the whole thing is rather vague.)
  57. # [00:34] <webben> annevk: Actually the prose does say: "Note that it's not always possible to make a clean division of cells into headers or data. You should use the TD element for such cells together with the id or scope attributes as appropriate." Which seems a relatively clear restatement of the principle.
  58. # [00:34] <webben> annevk: Yes. But they are all intended to help explain the spec, not contradict it.
  59. # [00:35] <webben> therefore trying to read them as a source of contradictions, like two alternative sources for the same thing, is strange
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  61. # [00:35] <webben> (that quote is from 11.4.1)
  62. # [00:36] * moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
  63. # [00:36] <webben> annevk: also note the example intended to illustrate the scope attribute which features td with the scope="row"
  64. # [00:36] <webben> followed by the text in the prose: "Although the first cell in each row contains data, not header information, the scope attribute makes the data cell behave like a row header cell."
  65. # [00:37] * zcorpan is unsure what the benefit is of trying to figure out what the intent of html4 is
  66. # [00:37] <zcorpan> isn't it better to focus on figuring out an algorithm for html5 that works with existing tables on the web?
  67. # [00:37] * annevk is not going to add scope="row" to all his <tr>s
  68. # [00:37] <annevk> euh, <td>s
  69. # [00:37] <jgraham_> zcorpan: I'm interested insofar as it it necessary to show people that vauge = bad + probably illogical
  70. # [00:38] * Parts: moeffju[ZzZz] (i=moeffju@ubermutant.net)
  71. # [00:38] <jgraham_> (illogical in non-trivial cases, that is)
  72. # [00:38] <zcorpan> jgraham_: ok
  73. # [00:39] <annevk> it's also good to know what use cases HTML4 catered for
  74. # [00:39] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
  75. # [00:39] <webben> annevk: Actually looking through the prose throughout supports that comment.
  76. # [00:39] <webben> I hadn't realised just how supported it was.
  77. # [00:40] <annevk> ?
  78. # [00:41] <webben> I can't see how one could construct anything contradicting the comment.
  79. # [00:41] <annevk> oh
  80. # [00:42] <webben> zcorpan: Depends on whether "figuring out an algorithm ... that works with existing tables" without consulting the spec that data table creators used is a realistic task. I suspect it isn't.
  81. # [00:44] <webben> (Although I'd certainly say it would be also worth looking at representations of the spec in major unlearning resources like w3schools.)
  82. # [00:45] <annevk> I'm not sure why it's unrealistic to study actual tables out there
  83. # [00:47] <webben> annevk: I didn't say it was. I think that's a very important part of the process too.
  84. # [00:48] <webben> annevk: What I am saying is it's unrealistic to /only/ do that.
  85. # [00:50] <webben> (because the spec is a guide to well-authored tables that aren't sampled and unlearning resources are a guide to badly authored ones)
  86. # [00:51] * annevk shrugs and goes to bed
  87. # [00:51] <tndH> speaking of w3schools... http://w3schools.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=15018 *grin*
  88. # [00:58] <Philip`> I'm hoping that doesn't count as a legitimate use case for <input usemap>
  89. # [00:58] <Philip`> (It's good to see the author has stopped using <font> - now they just need to go a little further and stop using </font> too...)
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  91. # [01:05] <annevk> Given the way how HTML5 defines that browsers should present an image (inside an HTML document) you can theoretically style that page using the Link: HTTP header...
  92. # [01:05] * annevk adds it to a list of silly things to test
  93. # [01:09] <annevk> ", and to the #mrt crew, the #mrt.no crew, and the cabal for their ideas and support."
  94. # [01:09] <annevk> lol, I'm pretty sure that read #whatwg before...
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  111. # [04:43] <Lachy> jgraham, is the source code for your table inspector available yet, or are you planning to release it soon?
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  133. # [09:20] <hsivonen> wow. while I was away public-html complaints have broadened to cover b.m.o and bugzilla.webkit.org bug content.
  134. # [09:20] <hsivonen> I wonder if Opera's bugs would merit complaints, too, if they were world-readable. :-)
  135. # [09:21] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I found those particular complaints to be mind-boggling
  136. # [09:21] <othermaciej> especially the complaint about a comment by me on a bugs.webkit.org bug
  137. # [09:28] <virtuelv> hsivonen: huh? URL?
  138. # [09:31] <hsivonen> virtuelv: http://www.w3.org/mid/00bf01c7e5b9$ccf642f0$582b42ab@Piglet
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  141. # [09:33] <annevk> the comments in those bug reports are even more fun, claiming that IE and Safari support <input usemap>
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  147. # [10:09] <jgraham> Lachy: I'm planning to release it Any Minute Now.
  148. # [10:10] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-d391e355.022-154-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  149. # [10:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: which apps convert real (non-entity) no-break spaces to regular spaces on copy/paste?
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  151. # [10:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: just tested copying from firefox into notepad on windows, and it became a regular space
  152. # [10:16] <annevk> well, it seems like we released an experimental build with improved support for <canvas>, Selectors and the like: http://www.opera.com/products/desktop/next/ (plug)
  153. # [10:16] <zcorpan> ah, it's tuesday already
  154. # [10:16] <annevk> morning zcorpan :p
  155. # [10:16] <zcorpan> morning :)
  156. # [10:20] * marcosc installs Opera 9.5....
  157. # [10:25] * marcosc likes the smooth scroll :D
  158. # [10:28] <marcosc> hmmm... still leaves rendering artifacts in gmail....
  159. # [10:32] <hendry> annevk: hi, i am studing your access control TR. Have you seen http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/i-dont-think-that-you-understand-firefox3-vulnerable-by-design ? is that stuff serious?
  160. # [10:32] <Lachy> hendry, most of it is bogus
  161. # [10:33] <hendry> annevk: ah, I've seen you responded. no worries
  162. # [10:33] <hendry> Lachy: looked a bit OTT ;)
  163. # [10:33] <Lachy> what's OTT?
  164. # [10:34] <hendry> OTT = over the top
  165. # [10:37] <annevk> changelog: http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/w950a1.html
  166. # [10:38] <Dashiva> It doesn't look like he even thought his ideas through...
  167. # [10:38] <Lachy> hmm. why does the URI to the blog entry call it "...opera-9-5-alpha-3", but the it's only alpha 1? http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2007/09/04/go-and-get-opera-9-5-alpha-3
  168. # [10:39] <annevk> he should read the spec, there are method restrictions, there are restrictions on availability of readyState, etc.
  169. # [10:40] <Dashiva> Lachy: Maybe they messed up the post two times before getting it right :D
  170. # [10:44] <Lachy> oh nice, they finally fixed this bug "No longer use font-variant: small-caps for acronym elements". I wondered how long they would remain inconsistent with other browsers on that
  171. # [10:46] <othermaciej> cool, text-shadow support
  172. # [10:47] <virtuelv> othermaciej: something not immediatly evident: We support multiple text shadows, comma-separated
  173. # [10:47] <virtuelv> I think the limit is at something like 12 shadows
  174. # [10:47] <othermaciej> our limit is one shadow
  175. # [10:47] <jgraham> Lachy: http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/tables/
  176. # [10:47] <Lachy> jgraham, thanks
  177. # [10:48] <othermaciej> cause that was easier to implement with high performance, and more than one shadow seemed useless
  178. # [10:48] <Dashiva> virtuelv had some crazy use case for 8, I think :)
  179. # [10:48] <virtuelv> Dashiva: 9 in fact
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  181. # [10:49] <virtuelv> I used Opera as a rendering engine for some PNG
  182. # [10:49] <virtuelv> instead of torturing myself with GIMP
  183. # [10:49] <annevk> I wonder when we'll be flamed at for implementing some bits of HTML5
  184. # [10:49] <Dashiva> I heard we already implemented <p>
  185. # [10:51] <othermaciej> how dare you speak for the HTML working group!
  186. # [10:51] <othermaciej> no final decision has been made on <p>
  187. # [10:51] * hsivonen is mildly surprised about Opera putting resources into text-shadow implementation considering that howcome categorized text-shadow as "excessive" in his thesis
  188. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Dashiva: do you work for Opera?
  189. # [10:52] <Dashiva> Only in the summer
  190. # [10:52] <othermaciej> snapshot.opera.com is responding really slowly for me
  191. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Dashiva: ok. I hadn't realized.
  192. # [10:53] <Dashiva> I'm just a lowly webapps slave
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  194. # [10:53] <annevk> othermaciej, confirmed :)
  195. # [10:53] <othermaciej> I have to benchmark the new beta against Safari 3
  196. # [10:53] <othermaciej> er, new alpha
  197. # [10:57] <othermaciej> hmm, does window.resizeTo not work?
  198. # [10:59] <annevk> I'd guess that's disabled by default, but dunno really
  199. # [10:59] <othermaciej> I was trying to type javascript:resizeTo(800,600) to have a consistent testing environment
  200. # [10:59] <othermaciej> but I just resized by hand instead
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  202. # [11:03] <othermaciej> well, the JS is faster than Opera 9.2
  203. # [11:03] <othermaciej> at least on Mac
  204. # [11:04] <Lachy> hmm. there still doesn't appear to be a way to make Find-as-you-type work properly in Opera :-(
  205. # [11:07] <Dashiva> How does it not work properly at the moment?
  206. # [11:08] <Lachy> I have to press '/' to activate it. I want it to start finding as soon as I start typing, like I have it configured in FF
  207. # [11:11] <Dashiva> How does that interact with one-key shortcuts, though?
  208. # [11:12] <Lachy> I don't care. I don't want one-key shortcuts
  209. # [11:20] <othermaciej> wow, I can't imagine having find configured that way
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  237. # [15:04] <Philip`> "Fixed canvas locking in the 2dgame context to allow updating when the canvas is locked and fixed the update function to actually work" - aha, sounds like it's no longer utterly useless
  238. # [15:05] <Philip`> http://snapshot.opera.com/unix/u950a1.html has encoding errors in [micro]Torrent's name near the bottom :-(
  239. # [15:14] * Joins: Ducki (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d2.pool.mediaWays.net)
  240. # [15:18] <Philip`> Hmm, Canvex is broken in O9.5 - if I select "large" then it only draws the top-left quarter of the canvas
  241. # [15:22] <annevk> encoding error is being fixed
  242. # [15:23] <hsivonen> hmm. validator.nu sucks in Opera Mini 4 beta
  243. # [15:24] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should make a handheld style sheet
  244. # [15:25] <annevk> It seems that teaching the world that "Selectors" is not "CSS3 Selectors" is near impossible
  245. # [15:25] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html
  246. # [15:27] <annevk> Cool, looks like quite a lot of bugfixes and a few regressions
  247. # [15:27] <hsivonen> will Opera Mini take the handheld CSS if I bother making a separate style sheet?
  248. # [15:28] <Dashiva> Hmm... canvex seems to mess up info panel too
  249. # [15:28] <annevk> I think it will, though given that pages abuse handheld CSS as well it might not...
  250. # [15:29] <Dashiva> nm, I missed the commenting out of all those scripts
  251. # [15:29] <Philip`> Dashiva: ?
  252. # [15:30] <hsivonen> annevk: is there a media value that says: "I have Opera for Mobile, Opera Mini and S60 Browser for testing, I know what I'm doing."
  253. # [15:30] <hsivonen> ?
  254. # [15:31] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/physics.html still seems peculiarly slow in Opera :-(
  255. # [15:32] <annevk> hsivonen, I'd use a media query
  256. # [15:32] <annevk> hsivonen, see also http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/evolving-the-internet-on-your-phone-des-1/ which does say you can use "handheld" but media queries probably work better with other mobile devices such as the iPhone etc.
  257. # [15:32] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  258. # [15:33] <hsivonen> annevk: testing validator.nu with iPhone probably ain't gonna happen (by me) as long as it isn't available in Europe
  259. # [15:35] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  260. # [15:35] * hsivonen now has a mobile arsenal of 5 browsers
  261. # [15:36] <othermaciej_> hsivonen: which ones?
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  263. # [15:36] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  264. # [15:37] <hsivonen> S60 browser, Opera for Mobile, Opera Mini 4 beta, Maemo Browser with Gecko and Maemo Browser with Opera
  265. # [15:42] * Joins: gavins (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  266. # [15:50] <othermaciej> Nokia is so open-minded in their choice of browser engines
  267. # [15:53] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I'd stay away from handheld, and just use media queries too
  268. # [15:54] <hsivonen> virtuelv: ok. thanks
  269. # [15:55] <virtuelv> othermaciej: resizeTo() has, afair, to be turned on here: opera:config#UserPrefs|Allowscripttoresizewindow
  270. # [15:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think you could make it work ok in opera mini 4 without media queries
  271. # [15:57] <zcorpan> i.e. media="all"
  272. # [15:57] <virtuelv> othermaciej: with the added snag that maximized windows are unresizable
  273. # [15:58] <othermaciej> virtuelv: in the end it was easier to just resize manually
  274. # [15:59] <othermaciej> (wanted to see how Opera 9.5 did on page load speed benchmarks, which requires a consistent sized content area to be meaningful)
  275. # [15:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: use % for left and right padding on body and fieldset
  276. # [15:59] <zcorpan> e.g. 3%
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  278. # [16:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. I made it suck less
  279. # [16:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think I'm still going to read about media queries one day and move the labels above the fields on narrow displays
  280. # [16:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok. that should be doable (again without mq ;) ) with float and min-width
  281. # [16:16] <zcorpan> but perhaps simpler with mq
  282. # [16:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: at least if I use mq I don't need to change markup or retest in IE :-)
  283. # [16:18] <zcorpan> @media all and (max-width:15em) { ... }
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  285. # [16:20] <zcorpan> table, tbody, tr, th, td { display:block; }
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  288. # [16:30] <hsivonen> hmm. why does the Opera Mini doc talk about device widths instead of the rendering surface width?
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  291. # [16:31] <zcorpan> pointer?
  292. # [16:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/evolving-the-internet-on-your-phone-des-1/
  293. # [16:32] <hsivonen> should I expect queries relative to the rendering surface to be supported?
  294. # [16:33] <virtuelv> hsivonen: such as?
  295. # [16:33] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  296. # [16:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: by opera, yes
  297. # [16:34] <zcorpan> dunno why one would want to use max-device-width at all
  298. # [16:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  299. # [16:35] <hsivonen> virtuelv: max-width (as opposed to max-device-width)
  300. # [16:35] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I think so, but I'm not entirely sure
  301. # [16:35] <Lachy> I'm trying out Opera's IRC client. Does anyone know if there's a way to make it automatically connect as soon as I launch Opera?
  302. # [16:36] <virtuelv> Lachy: save the windows in a session and restore that session on startup
  303. # [16:36] <zcorpan> or just let opera remember which tabs were open last time, wfm
  304. # [16:36] <virtuelv> zcorpan: that too
  305. # [16:37] <Lachy> virtuelv, how do I do that?
  306. # [16:37] <virtuelv> and remember to lock your IRC tabs if you want to prevent yourself from accidentally leaving a channel
  307. # [16:37] <virtuelv> Lachy: File->Sessions->Save session
  308. # [16:38] <virtuelv> Lachy: and close all other windows before saving the session
  309. # [16:39] <Lachy> ok, I'll see if that worked
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  312. # [16:40] <zcorpan> wb
  313. # [16:41] <Lachy> ok, that worked. now I need find out how to make it send my freenode password whenever I log into #whatwg
  314. # [16:41] <zcorpan> tools, mail and chat accounts
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  317. # [16:43] <Lachy> cool, it all works :-)
  318. # [16:43] <zcorpan> :)
  319. # [16:43] <hsivonen> hmm. Opera on desktop does weird things with max-width media queries :-(
  320. # [16:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: such as?
  321. # [16:44] <Lachy> hmm. I wonder why Opera had the default encoding set to ISO-8859-15?
  322. # [16:45] <zcorpan> Lachy: as opposed to utf-8 or iso-8859-1?
  323. # [16:45] <Lachy> yes, in the IRC acct settings
  324. # [16:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it seems to set the max-width property of body or html. dunno which :-(
  325. # [16:45] <hsivonen> in 9.20
  326. # [16:46] <Lachy> just checking it's using UTF-8 now, this should be a smily face: ☺
  327. # [16:47] <Lachy> cool, that showed in the logs correctly :-)
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  329. # [16:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: do you have a test case?
  330. # [16:50] <zcorpan> i don't see it with 9.23
  331. # [16:50] <zcorpan> Lachy: which do you think should be default: utf-8 or iso-8859-1?
  332. # [16:51] <Lachy> for IRC, it should be UTF-8
  333. # [16:51] <Lachy> that's what chatzilla and xchat use, I believe
  334. # [16:52] <zcorpan> Lachy: file a bug? :)
  335. # [16:53] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-228.range217-42.btcentralplus.com)
  336. # [16:54] <virtuelv> hsivonen: tried in 9.5?
  337. # [16:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. when I try to minimize the test case, I see neither the problem nor correct behavior...
  338. # [16:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: interesting
  339. # [16:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: test case http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/max-width-mq.html
  340. # [16:58] <hsivonen> hmm. might have been a mistake in my testing or I don't grok the SSR mode in the desktop build
  341. # [16:58] <hsivonen> anyway, it turns out that max-width works
  342. # [16:58] <hsivonen> but not after window resize without reload
  343. # [16:58] <hsivonen> so the query applies at initial load time only
  344. # [16:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you will need to make the window narrower for the mq to apply, not just enable ssr
  345. # [16:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in 9.5 it gets applied as you change the window size
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  347. # [17:03] <Lachy> zcorpan, bugs.opera.com really needs to have a link to bugs.opera.com/wizard/ - I had to go the long way around to find it through opera.com -> support -> ...
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  350. # [17:05] <Lachy> zcorpan, bug-281826 is filed
  351. # [17:06] <hsivonen> yay. made validator.nu no longer suck in Opera Mini
  352. # [17:06] <zcorpan> Lachy: thanks
  353. # [17:06] <hsivonen> still sucks in S60 browser, though
  354. # [17:06] <hsivonen> I guess they don't support media queries :-(
  355. # [17:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice
  356. # [17:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: they might support "handheld"
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  358. # [17:16] <othermaciej> if they ever update to a newer WebKit they will
  359. # [17:16] <othermaciej> in fact the WebKit media query support was originally written by someone from Nokia
  360. # [17:23] <hasather> Lachy: it does have a link to te wizard
  361. # [17:24] * zcorpan just forwarded the request... :)
  362. # [17:25] <Lachy> hasather, where?
  363. # [17:26] <hasather> Lachy: bugs.opera.com says "If you are not an Opera employee or partner, but wish to report a bug, please visit the bug report wizard after reading the guidelines." with a link to the wizard
  364. # [17:27] <Lachy> oh, that's not at all obvious. It should be in the toolbar
  365. # [17:28] <Lachy> I tried "Enter new bug" in the toolbar, and that didn't work, so I figured there wasn't another link
  366. # [17:32] <Lachy> hmm. smileys aren't showing as graphics for me, as they're supposed to http://help.opera.com/Windows/9.20/en/chat.html#smileys
  367. # [17:33] <virtuelv> Lachy: known, I believe
  368. # [17:33] <Lachy> ok, is it just a bug in the 9.5 alpha?
  369. # [17:33] <hasather> Lachy: yes
  370. # [17:34] <Lachy> ok
  371. # [17:34] <Lachy> is it possible to fix the nickname completion to use a comma instead of a colon after the name?
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  373. # [17:34] <Lachy> I couldn't find any pref for it
  374. # [17:35] <hasather> Lachy: not that I know of, but I've never looked into it
  375. # [17:39] <zcorpan> Lachy: file another bug? :)
  376. # [17:43] <Lachy> zcorpan: I will later. I'm currently trying to work out how to manage my user profile in opera, like I can with Firefox.
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  382. # [17:58] <gsnedders> hmmm… which is the lesser evil: XHTML, or HTML 3.2?
  383. # [17:58] <hsivonen> I wonder if anything can be done to the Apache policy of not putting x- types in mime.types...
  384. # [17:58] <hsivonen> seems like a *very* counter-productive policy to me
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  387. # [18:08] <Lachy_> hmm. I can't figure out how Opera's profile managment works. I want to store the whole profile on my data disk (D:) instead of my system disk (C:). I give up for tonight
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  389. # [18:11] <hasather> Lachy_: this might help http://operawiki.info/OperaProfiles
  390. # [18:13] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.195)
  391. # [18:15] <Lachy_> hasather, thanks.
  392. # [18:16] <Lachy_> Opera definitely needs a profile manager like Firefox's though
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  409. # [19:09] <aaronlev_> hsivonen: yt?
  410. # [19:09] * Joins: Lachy (n=lachlan_@124-170-105-252.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  411. # [19:14] <hsivonen> aaronlev_: yes. (still catching up on email. sorry.)
  412. # [19:14] <aaronlev_> hsivonen: np
  413. # [19:14] <aaronlev_> i probably wrote a similar email twice, sorry about that
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  420. # [19:23] <Philip`> Opera 9.5 says: "Insert em tag instead of i tag when using italic execCommand parameter" - that sounds semantically unsound :-(
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  428. # [19:29] <hsivonen> aaronlev_: I'm reading your mail now, but it will take me a while to think enough before I reply
  429. # [19:30] <aaronlev_> cool
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  434. # [19:52] <hasather> Philip`: thought so too. Is it for compatibility?
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  436. # [19:53] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-cad1ecf16bb470bd) ("Fades out again…")
  437. # [19:53] <jbarnett__> iirc, that's what IE does. Firefox uses <b> and <i> (again, iirc)
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  447. # [20:15] * gsnedders adds a list of contributors to his draft of tolerant HTTP parsing: Philip`
  448. # [20:16] * Philip` wonders why
  449. # [20:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: "why" is answered somewhere on your web space. Don't have the URI off hand. You did it before I was intending to actually formally write the behaviour down.
  450. # [20:19] <Philip`> Hmm, I sort of vaguely remember doing something to test different combinations of \r and \n in headers
  451. # [20:20] <gsnedders> Yeah. That.
  452. # [20:22] * Philip` probably ought to sort out a better method of remembering what he's done in the past, since his brain is too leaky to store non-backed-up data in
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  454. # [20:22] <gsnedders> ergh. apparently RAID HD has failed. yuk.
  455. # [20:23] <Hixie> Philip`: you could do less work... that's the only way i've found
  456. # [20:23] <Hixie> not a particularly fun way of solving the problem though
  457. # [20:23] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  458. # [20:26] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-227-221-48-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  459. # [20:27] <Philip`> I was thinking more along the lines of writing stuff down, and not putting everything in "misc" folders :-)
  460. # [20:27] * Quits: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980d3.pool.mediaWays.net) (Connection timed out)
  461. # [20:27] <Hixie> Philip`: pah, google is your friend :-P
  462. # [20:33] <gsnedders> but yeah Philip`, you are the list :)
  463. # [20:35] <Philip`> Do I win a T-shirt or badge or something, or is it just fame and glory?
  464. # [20:36] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.144)
  465. # [20:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: just fame and glory for draft -00
  466. # [20:45] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose that'll be good enough for now, given that I can barely remember what contribution I made :-p
  467. # [20:47] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-246-129.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  468. # [20:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: If you care, further testing made it rather clear that how you treat CR is rather irrelevant, as every browser treats it differently
  469. # [20:57] <Philip`> Is any of them sensible enough to use its behaviour in a specification, or is it saner to make up another different behaviour?
  470. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Well, I've yet to find anything reliant on any particular behaviour, so I am (for now) treating it as a valid header name/value character
  471. # [20:58] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@ashy.demon.co.uk)
  472. # [20:59] <gsnedders> which as the algorithm will be written, is the simplist
  473. # [20:59] <gsnedders> but it's also different to everything I've tested
  474. # [20:59] <gsnedders> actually, Safari is somewhat like it
  475. # [20:59] <gsnedders> Safari's behaviour is more complex when it is surrounded by whitespace in the value, though
  476. # [20:59] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk)
  477. # [21:03] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@84.13.125.171)
  478. # [21:04] <gsnedders> http://geoffers.uni.cc/draft-sneddon-http-parsing-00.html is current draft
  479. # [21:04] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-9ad1961f7c6e8370) ("The computer fell asleep")
  480. # [21:05] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) (heinlein.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  482. # [21:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: one thing for the security section of that draft is the need for implementations to follow the spec exactly lest they be vulnerable to content stuffing that abuses differences in parsing algorithms
  483. # [21:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: yeah, that was one section I needed to solicit comments on about what to write there :)
  484. # [21:16] <Hixie> looks good so far though
  485. # [21:17] <gsnedders> some of the algorithmic text is based off HTML 5 text, so it's not overly amazing that you're saying that
  486. # [21:17] <Hixie> :-)
  487. # [21:17] <gsnedders> there was in very early drafts a reference to that, but all the algorithms have been totally rewritten since
  488. # [21:17] <gsnedders> (i.e., at least one algorithm was a verbatim copy)
  489. # [21:17] <Hixie> heh
  490. # [21:17] <Lachy> hey Hixie
  491. # [21:18] <Hixie> hey!
  492. # [21:18] <Hixie> wassup?
  493. # [21:18] <Hixie> anything fun while i was in the desert?
  494. # [21:18] <gsnedders> the first step ("input"/"position" inheritance) is still verbatim. the rest is totally my own writing, as far as I can see
  495. # [21:18] <Lachy> what were you in the desert for?
  496. # [21:18] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah i noticed that, i'm all in favour :-D
  497. # [21:18] <Hixie> Lachy: burning man
  498. # [21:19] <Lachy> I implemented the text/html feed sniffing algorithm a few days ago
  499. # [21:19] <Hixie> cool
  500. # [21:19] <Hixie> does it work?
  501. # [21:19] <Lachy> http://html5.lachy.id.au/content-sniffing/
  502. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: WP:NPOV!11!!11!
  503. # [21:19] <Lachy> I found one problem with the prose, which I should send mail about but havent yet.
  504. # [21:20] <gsnedders> Lachy: several have already been sent by both me and kingryan
  505. # [21:20] <Hixie> gsnedders: :-D
  506. # [21:20] <Hixie> Lachy: k
  507. # [21:20] <gsnedders> Lachy: was it fairly obvious?
  508. # [21:20] * Lachy is looking for it now...
  509. # [21:21] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
  510. # [21:21] <Lachy> step 6 says:
  511. # [21:21] <Lachy> 3. Otherwise, increase pos by 1.
  512. # [21:21] <Lachy> 4. Otherwise, return to step 2 in these substeps.
  513. # [21:21] <gsnedders> yeah, that's already been sent
  514. # [21:21] <kingryan> Lachy: what's that content-sniffing written in?
  515. # [21:22] <Lachy> gsnedders: ok
  516. # [21:22] <Lachy> kingryan: javascript
  517. # [21:22] <Hixie> Lachy: just an extra "Otherwise", right?
  518. # [21:22] <gsnedders> I sent an email about rdf:RDF as well
  519. # [21:22] <Lachy> yes
  520. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: yeah
  521. # [21:22] <Hixie> Lachy: also, did you implement step 10?
  522. # [21:22] <Lachy> no, not yet
  523. # [21:23] <Hixie> k
  524. # [21:23] <kingryan> Hixie: fwiw, I implemented step 10 in a naive way and it seems to work
  525. # [21:23] <Hixie> i'm not sure how to spec it exactly
  526. # [21:23] <Hixie> kingryan: yeah?
  527. # [21:23] <gsnedders> regarding step 10: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0671.html>
  528. # [21:25] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.196.77)
  529. # [21:25] <Hixie> i think that's in the issues list
  530. # [21:25] <gsnedders> yeah, it is
  531. # [21:25] <kingryan> Hixie: yeah, I did what gsnedders' email suggests
  532. # [21:25] <gsnedders> just for anyone here not aware of it while discussing it
  533. # [21:25] <kingryan> I don't look for the namespaces
  534. # [21:26] <gsnedders> as I said, I've yet to see anything break
  535. # [21:27] <Hixie> well, i'm sure i'll look at this again when i edit that part of the spec :-D
  536. # [21:28] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) ("Lost terminal")
  537. # [21:28] <kingryan> when that time comes, let me know and I can run some stats from our spider to see how well the simple version of step 10 works
  538. # [21:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm going to be writing test cases (far more comprehensive than yours) for all sorts of sniffing behaviour. I'll test what I have time to myself, but help is always welcome ;)
  539. # [21:28] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  540. # [21:28] <Hixie> gsnedders: cool
  541. # [21:29] <gsnedders> I conned anne out of gsnedders.html5.org, which is where they'll be
  542. # [21:29] <Hixie> hah
  543. # [21:29] <gsnedders> first person to not have firstname.html5.org :P
  544. # [21:29] <kingryan> gsnedders: we can put the tests in html5lib, too, if you wish
  545. # [21:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: Not the first - there's www.html5.org, and I doubt there's anyone here named www :-)
  546. # [21:30] <Lachy> oh wow! IE doesn't need to see the namespaces put on the start tag for it to sniff as a feed
  547. # [21:30] <gsnedders> kingryan: they'll all be MIT licensed, but arguably having tests over hundreds of files isn't that nice for test suites
  548. # [21:31] <Lachy> http://html5.lachy.id.au/content-sniffing/?%3Crdf%3ARDF%3Etest%3C%2Frdf%3ARDF%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Frss%2F1.0%2F%22%20xmlns%3Ardf%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2F02%2F22-rdf-syntax-ns%23%22%3E
  549. # [21:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, do you have data about how many feeds are "text/html;..." but not "text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" or "text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"? i was wondering if it would be possible to limit the sniffing similarly to text/plain
  550. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: meh. www is the same as without :P
  551. # [21:31] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@T7c6f.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  552. # [21:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.144) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  553. # [21:31] <Hixie> zcorpan: no data at the moment
  554. # [21:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
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  556. # [21:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: oh, and regarding the informative reference to HTML 5 in W3C repo, that's mainly down to needed a stable URI. I'm planning on changing it to the FPWD when that comes (whenever that is, or whether the heart stops beating)
  557. # [21:34] <gsnedders> terrible pun, I know.
  558. # [21:35] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@84.13.125.171)
  559. # [21:35] <Hixie> stable how?
  560. # [21:36] <gsnedders> a non-changing URI pointing to the same document. my understanding of the I-D/RFC requirements is for that to be a specific version of the document.
  561. # [21:37] <Hixie> ah
  562. # [21:37] <Hixie> makes sense
  563. # [21:38] <gsnedders> and the W3C CVS URIs are the only ones to my knowledge that currently meet that requirement
  564. # [21:38] <Hixie> i'm very interested to see what reaction your draft gets when you submit it
  565. # [21:39] <gsnedders> theoretically I don't need that much done to be allowed to submit it, but it'd probably be better to have more done
  566. # [21:39] <Lachy> gsnedders: how much of RFC 2616 are you intending to rewrite?
  567. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Lachy: just define the parsing. nothing more.
  568. # [21:40] <Lachy> ok
  569. # [21:41] <Lachy> so you're not redefining what is and is not conforming syntax?
  570. # [21:41] * gsnedders wonders where he could get it published if the reaction when submitted is less than ideal
  571. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Lachy: conformance requirements for syntax are unchanged. conformance requirements for parsing are.
  572. # [21:42] <Lachy> ok.
  573. # [21:43] <gsnedders> I should do my homework that's due for tomorrow…
  574. # [21:43] <Hixie> gsnedders: we can definitely set up an http.whatwg.org thing if the ietf doesn't react favourably
  575. # [21:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: you think it was coincidence I mentioned that with you around, and hosting with anne around? :D
  576. # [21:45] <Lachy> hey, gsnedders, in a MIME type for the Content-Type header, is there technically allowed to be whitespace between the semi-colon and paramters? like: text/html;<space>charset=UTF-8?
  577. # [21:45] <Hixie> gsnedders: :-)
  578. # [21:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: yes
  579. # [21:45] <Lachy> when I read it yesterday, cause I had to write a regex to validate it, the BNF in the RFC seemed to indicate that it can't
  580. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: the MIME spec allows one spec, IIRC, and any LWS in HTTP is reduced to a single space
  581. # [21:47] <Lachy> really? RFC 2616 says this:
  582. # [21:47] <Lachy> media-type = type "/" subtype *( ";" parameter )
  583. # [21:47] <Lachy> type = token
  584. # [21:47] <Lachy> subtype = token
  585. # [21:47] <Lachy> parameter = attribute "=" value
  586. # [21:47] <Lachy> attribute = token
  587. # [21:47] <Lachy> value = token | quoted-string
  588. # [21:47] <Lachy> quoted-string = ( '"' *(qdtext | quoted-pair ) '"' )
  589. # [21:47] <Lachy> qdtext = any TEXT except '"'
  590. # [21:47] <Lachy> quoted-pair = "\" CHAR
  591. # [21:48] <gsnedders> yeah, RFC 2045 agrees with no space being allowed
  592. # [21:48] <Hixie> what's a "token"?
  593. # [21:48] <gsnedders> my memory is wrong
  594. # [21:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: a horribly wrong number of characters
  595. # [21:48] <gsnedders> s/wrong/long/
  596. # [21:48] <Lachy> and token is defined to exclude control chars, spaces and a few other special things
  597. # [21:48] <Hixie> can it start with LWS?
  598. # [21:48] <gsnedders> no
  599. # [21:48] <Hixie> k
  600. # [21:48] <Hixie> odd
  601. # [21:48] <gsnedders> it's what a header name can be
  602. # [21:49] <Hixie> does *( ... ) imply LWS?
  603. # [21:49] <Lachy> token = 1*<any CHAR except CTLs or separators>
  604. # [21:49] <Lachy> separators = "(" | ")" | "<" | ">" | "@"
  605. # [21:49] <Lachy> | "," | ";" | ":" | "\" | <">
  606. # [21:49] <Lachy> | "/" | "[" | "]" | "?" | "="
  607. # [21:49] <Lachy> | "{" | "}" | SP | HT
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  609. # [21:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: my memory is wrong because it's impossible to implement that as specified :P
  610. # [21:50] <Lachy> yeah, I noticed. I decided to explicitly allow spaces to occur there in my regex
  611. # [21:50] <gsnedders> here we go
  612. # [21:50] <gsnedders> actually
  613. # [21:50] <gsnedders> it is allowed
  614. # [21:50] <gsnedders> page 15
  615. # [21:50] <gsnedders> see implied *LWS
  616. # [21:51] <gsnedders> it disallows it between the type and subtype, and attribute and vale, but not before the semi-colon
  617. # [21:51] <Lachy> what about between attr=value?
  618. # [21:52] <gsnedders> yeah, it's disallowed between attr and value
  619. # [21:52] <Lachy> where does it say that?
  620. # [21:52] <gsnedders> page 26
  621. # [21:52] <gsnedders> bottom paragraph
  622. # [21:53] <gsnedders> when fetching a HTTP header through JS, is its name case-sensitive?
  623. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: I was sure it was allowed, just couldn't see where straight away. RFC 2616 is like that :)
  624. # [21:54] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.144)
  625. # [21:55] <Lachy> but it says "linear white space (LWS) can be included ... between adjacent words and separators", so therefore space between attribute and "=" would be allowed
  626. # [21:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think i'm convinced by your idea of application="manifest" with the manifest being the identifier for the cache
  627. # [21:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: especially because for single-page apps, it still works to have application="" since we can just say it's a relative URL to the same page
  628. # [21:56] <Hixie> thus making the manifest optional, effectively
  629. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: it also says except where explicitly it is not allowed. page 26 explicitly says between attributes and their values it is not allowed.
  630. # [21:56] <Hixie> hmm, the manifest could also point to the "top" page, so the manifest could be HTML...
  631. # [21:56] <Hixie> hm
  632. # [21:56] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'd say the manifest should either be implicit or some format other than HTML
  633. # [21:57] <Lachy> gsnedders: ok
  634. # [21:57] <othermaciej> Hixie: in other words, make application="" a special case
  635. # [21:57] <Hixie> oh?
  636. # [21:57] <Hixie> even with the feedback we got from the gears guys that people don't like manifests?
  637. # [21:58] <Lachy> gsnedders: so spaces could occur here: type/subtype LWS ; LWS attribute=value
  638. # [21:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: sorry, I might not be expressing myself clearly
  639. # [21:58] <Hixie> i kinda like the idea of making the manifest executable, the way the top page is in the proposal i mentioned, because it allows for the page to talk from its new version to its old version and negotiate things between multiple open pages, etc
  640. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: correct
  641. # [21:58] <Hixie> i have to get lunch, i'll be back shortly
  642. # [21:58] <Lachy> ok, I'll update my regex
  643. # [21:58] <othermaciej> I think application with no value or an empty value should be a special case where you get the "implicit manifest" behavior
  644. # [21:59] <othermaciej> but in other cases the manifest should be some specific non-executable format
  645. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Lachy: or in ABNF, more exactly: type "/" subtype *(LWS ";" LWS parameter)
  646. # [21:59] <othermaciej> one of the benefits of a manifest is being able to very quickly check for updates
  647. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Lachy: as there can be multiple parameters
  648. # [21:59] <othermaciej> you can just do a conditional GET of the manifest
  649. # [22:00] <othermaciej> and then further do conditional GETs of the resources listed, possibly only if the manifest indicates their version changed, depending on the format
  650. # [22:00] <othermaciej> I don't think that works where your external manifest is an HTML file that executes script
  651. # [22:00] <othermaciej> I also think some of the reasons stated for not liking manifests are equally bad problems for an implicit offline cache scheme
  652. # [22:01] <othermaciej> if all loads go in the offline cache, then to do valid offline testing you have to blow away your browser cache *and* your offline cache
  653. # [22:01] * Joins: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b98052.pool.mediaWays.net)
  654. # [22:01] <othermaciej> otherwise you might miss hard dependencies on resources that are not loaded every single time
  655. # [22:01] <othermaciej> (that load late on demand, say)
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  668. # [23:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: true
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  676. # [23:33] * Hixie finally gets to the public-html mail
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  684. # [23:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://tdspodcast.com/archive/2007/09/04/constructive-feedback-lacking-in-opinion-of-at-product.aspx
  685. # Session Close: Wed Sep 05 00:00:00 2007

The end :)