/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 07 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:08] * Philip` needs to get back to implementing canvas shadows in Mozilla, so he can be more justified in complaining that Opera doesn't support them when every other browser does
  6. # [00:10] <zcorpan> :)
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  13. # [00:26] <zcorpan> smart colspan seems to work pretty well
  14. # [00:26] <zcorpan> jgraham: you think it would be possible to implement the same algorithm for both directions?
  15. # [00:28] <zcorpan> i think we had another idea also... that headers in <thead> imply scope="col" so that they apply to the entire table regardless of other cells
  16. # [00:28] <zcorpan> because you can have scrollable tbody or repeat the thead on each page when printed, it only makes sense that they should apply to the whole table
  17. # [00:43] <webben> IIRC you can have more than one thead per table.
  18. # [00:44] <webben> zcorpan: e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.3: "When present, each THEAD, TFOOT, and TBODY contains a row group."
  19. # [00:45] <webben> hmm, actually maybe that's not what that means
  20. # [00:45] <webben> no looking at the DTD it can't mean that, nm :)
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  22. # [00:50] <zcorpan> webben: only one thead is allowed :)
  23. # [00:50] <webben> yep
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  25. # [00:51] <webben> zcorpan: how would one undo scope-="col" in that situation?
  26. # [00:51] <webben> zcorpan: for example if you had a column th of Country ... but then grouped countries in continental rowgroups
  27. # [00:52] <webben> Country wouldn't be the header for "Europe"
  28. # [00:53] <webben> but you'd still want the header at the top of each page
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  30. # [00:58] <zcorpan> webben: i don't quite follow
  31. # [00:58] <zcorpan> why would you place headers in <thead> if you don't want them to apply to the whole table?
  32. # [00:59] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-227-221-48-no62.tbcn.telia.com) ("Thanks Dan")
  33. # [01:00] <webben> zcorpan: Because they apply to the whole table does not mean they apply to every cell.
  34. # [01:01] <zcorpan> webben: could you create such a sample table, please?
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  37. # [01:15] <webben> zcorpan: something like http://pastebin.com/mc5b47f9 only longer
  38. # [01:21] <Hixie> kingryan: pure code
  39. # [01:22] <Hixie> kingryan: e.g. you have one class per element type, and you create a DOM tree using those classes, then you just interogate the root "are you valid", and the root asks its kids the same question, after having checked them for validity according to the rules for that type of node, etc
  40. # [01:22] <kingryan> so, instead of having a table that says "for element a, forbid these attributes", you'd have code that gets run when encountering element a that checks for the attribute?
  41. # [01:22] <kingryan> ah, ok
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  91. # [02:06] <Hixie> gah, i replied again
  92. # [02:13] <kingryan> anything but a reply!
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  128. # [04:38] <Hixie> hm, john boyer left the htmlwg
  129. # [04:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: your new proposal is sounding better
  130. # [04:40] <Hixie> great!
  131. # [04:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: but it's hard to think through all of the implications
  132. # [04:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: will have to read it and send comments
  133. # [04:41] <Hixie> k
  134. # [04:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: Gears does handle a few details that aren't in this, like handling <input type="file"> when offline
  135. # [04:42] <Hixie> yeah the plan is to do that by just providing an API on HTMLInputFile that exposes the file data
  136. # [04:43] <othermaciej> that's definitely good for relatively small files
  137. # [04:43] <othermaciej> probably not as good for large uploads
  138. # [04:43] <othermaciej> in Safari at least, we stream the file straight from disk in the middle of the form data when uploading, which is pretty much necessary to handle large files sanely
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  140. # [04:44] <Hixie> true
  141. # [04:44] <othermaciej> you'd also need some control to dump the data back into (maybe the file input API can also offer API to set data in the same format that it allows get)
  142. # [04:44] <Hixie> but the gears API isn't much better than HTMLInputElement being done, as far as i can tell
  143. # [04:45] <othermaciej> I don't remember how it works
  144. # [04:45] <annevk> othermaciej, you can just post using XHR
  145. # [04:45] <othermaciej> it might not be any better
  146. # [04:45] <Hixie> well you can send your data using any backend sync system you do
  147. # [04:45] <Hixie> doesn't have to be a real form
  148. # [04:45] <othermaciej> that's true
  149. # [04:47] <othermaciej> I guess this doesn't need to tie all that closely into the offline cache
  150. # [04:48] <Hixie> yeah, i feel better about keeping them orthogonal
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  152. # [04:50] <annevk> Hixie, should template= and ref be "super" global?
  153. # [04:51] <Hixie> yeah they probably will be
  154. # [04:51] <Hixie> bbl afk
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  159. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie - do you of any existing browser support for inputmode?
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  191. # [09:49] <zcorpan> webben: that's an interesting table. so you want Country to apply to all cells in the column but EUROPE and ASIA?
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  207. # [11:39] <hsivonen> if Opera has supported media queries since version 7, why isn't the query in validator.nu's style sheet applying in Opera 8.5 (S60r3.1)? (it is in 9.2 on desktop and in Mini 4 beta)
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  210. # [11:51] <peepo> oops
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  232. # [13:10] <annevk> zcorpan, isn't scope=col already implied?
  233. # [13:11] <annevk> it already works for my tables for instance... (which don't have scope=col)
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  235. # [13:28] <zcorpan> annevk: not with the smart colspan algorithm if you have headers lower down with the same colspan as the one in thead
  236. # [13:31] <annevk> hmm, I thought leading spaces were not allowed currently for integer values (such as tabindex=)?
  237. # [13:32] * annevk looks through the validator tests
  238. # [13:32] <annevk> is looking through*, even
  239. # [13:33] <zcorpan> "A string is a valid integer if it consists of one of more characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9), optionally prefixed with a U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS ("-") character."
  240. # [13:33] <annevk> indeed
  241. # [13:38] <hsivonen> can anyone suggest a collective term for errors that caused validation to end up in an indeterminate state due to problems outside the checked document (validator bugs, IO failures, unusable schemas)?
  242. # [13:39] <zcorpan> "internal error"?
  243. # [13:39] <zcorpan> or well, doesn't have to be internal
  244. # [13:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I considered that, but a bogus outside schema isn't exactly internal
  245. # [13:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: neither is outside server failure
  246. # [13:40] <zcorpan> indeed
  247. # [13:40] <annevk> can't you distinguish between them?
  248. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm tring to come up with a forward-compatible format that has a two-level taxonomy of messages
  249. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: with the assumption that the higher level doesn't need to change but the detailed level can change without breaking clients
  250. # [13:42] <hsivonen> so that I'd have "informative", "document error" and "not-document error" as the frozen high level
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  252. # [13:43] <hsivonen> and I could introduce a new error type as a subtype with legacy clients still able to figure out the rough category of the new error
  253. # [13:44] <hsivonen> the semantics being: no document nor non-document errors: valid
  254. # [13:44] <hsivonen> no non-document errors but one or more document errors: invalid
  255. # [13:45] <hsivonen> one or more non-document errors: indeterminate
  256. # [13:46] <hsivonen> does that make sense or am on the side of astronautics?
  257. # [13:46] <zcorpan> makes sense
  258. # [13:47] <zcorpan> "non-document" seems like a good term also
  259. # [13:47] <annevk> it would be useful to know though if my schema is bogus for instance
  260. # [13:56] <annevk> is the person who did <event-source> for WebKit around?
  261. # [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: that would be <non-document type='schema'>
  262. # [13:57] <annevk> there's http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/event-source/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/parsing/event-source/
  263. # [13:59] <hsivonen> basically, I want to do a native XML format and a native JSON format in a forward-compatible way and say that I reserve the right to break HTML/XHTML/text scraping at whim without notice
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  266. # [14:27] <Philip`> annevk: That was G0k, I think
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  268. # [14:29] <annevk> ah ok, I'll guess I'll ping him when he's around
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  277. # [16:17] <hsivonen> in the XML output format, a message may have these optional subitems: short message (may contain XHTML <code> and <a>), long advice (may contain rich XHTML narrative) and extract from the source
  278. # [16:17] <hsivonen> what kind of markup would people on this channel prefer?
  279. # [16:19] <hsivonen> explicit: <error><message>Blah <h:code>div</h:code></message><elaboration><h:p>BlahBlah</h:p><h:p>BlahBlah</h:p></elaboration><source>&lt;div&gt;</source></error>
  280. # [16:19] <hsivonen> or something less verbose with implied relationships?
  281. # [16:20] <hsivonen> e.g. merging message and elaboration and stating that the first para is the main message
  282. # [16:20] <zcorpan> using a heading for the message, perhaps?
  283. # [16:20] <hsivonen> interesting
  284. # [16:21] <zcorpan> <error><h:h1>Blah <h:code>div</h:code></h:h1><h:p>Blah...
  285. # [16:21] <hsivonen> my initial though is that they'd be non-heading-like in content
  286. # [16:21] <hsivonen> basically, the message part is what you see now
  287. # [16:21] <hsivonen> and elaboration is going to be a new feature
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  289. # [16:22] <hsivonen> I'm thinking of leveraging the liberal WHATWG copyright license and dumping extracts from the spec
  290. # [16:23] <zcorpan> <details>? :)
  291. # [16:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that could be a good idea for the (X)HTML output
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  293. # [16:25] <zcorpan> having <message><elaboration><source> in the xml format seems good for me, i'm just brainstorming :)
  294. # [16:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. :-)
  295. # [16:27] <hsivonen> speaking of <details>
  296. # [16:27] <hsivonen> has safe is it in current browsers and are there forward-compatible open-source canned scripted emulation packages?
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  298. # [16:27] <hsivonen> s/has/how/
  299. # [16:34] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should add redundant data as a precomputed success/failure/indeterminate verdict even though the client could compute the verdict from the messages
  300. # [16:37] * Parts: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-98-130.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  301. # [16:40] <zcorpan> iirc <legend> is dropped in some browsers
  302. # [16:41] <zcorpan> haven't seen any scripts to emulate <details> that uses <details>
  303. # [16:42] <zcorpan> thinking about it, reusing <fieldset> might have a better compat story
  304. # [16:42] <zcorpan> but might confuse some ATs
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  308. # [18:01] <annevk> Lachy, you would set up a redirect for http://blog.whatwg.org/faq (try it again here as there's less traffic)
  309. # [18:02] <Lachy> annevk, remind me on Sunday
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  326. # [20:07] <kingryan> has anyone seen markp around?
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  329. # [20:24] <gsnedders> kingryan: you ever have any issues with standalone in the XML declaration with feeds?
  330. # [20:25] <kingryan> hi gsnedders
  331. # [20:25] <kingryan> I'm not sure what you're asking
  332. # [20:25] <gsnedders> like <?xml version="1.0" standalone='yes'?>
  333. # [20:25] <gsnedders> and the fact that standalone=yes
  334. # [20:25] <kingryan> no, not really
  335. # [20:25] <kingryan> not sure I've ever seen that in a feed
  336. # [20:26] * gsnedders looks up the bug report he got
  337. # [20:26] * gsnedders shrugs
  338. # [20:26] <gsnedders> seems to be fixed in the feed
  339. # [20:27] <gsnedders> probably no need to set standalone=no in everything
  340. # [20:27] <gsnedders> (I await for XMLists to go mad at me for even suggesting that)
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  343. # [20:38] * kingryan doesn't even know what standalone is for
  344. # [20:40] <gsnedders> kingryan: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#sec-rmd
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  347. # [20:49] <kingryan> thanks gsnedders. I'm still not sure I understand it, but I think that might be ok
  348. # [20:50] <gsnedders> kingryan: read the validity constraint, that basically summarises it
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  366. # [22:31] <Hixie> don't forget to fill out http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html if you're going to the f2f btw
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  371. # [23:10] <a-ja> anyone familiar with current state of browser support for figure element?
  372. # [23:11] <zcorpan> no support anywhere yet afaik (although it degrades pretty well)
  373. # [23:12] <a-ja> fairly...with a bit of css lovin
  374. # [23:12] <a-ja> actually, looks like opera kestral gets it right,,,,,or mostly
  375. # [23:14] <annevk> the draconian answer is that if you use XHTML5 it will work quite good (given that you add stuff like display:block)
  376. # [23:15] <a-ja> isntf figure supposed to be block (like a <p>) ? and a legend within a figure should be inline?
  377. # [23:16] <annevk> yeah, but it's not natively supported yet and the initial value of the display property is inline
  378. # [23:17] <annevk> not sure about <legend> in <img>, I would expect the typical presentation to be block level I think, so that it appears under the image
  379. # [23:17] <zcorpan> seems <legend> creates an empty element in kestrel that is display:block... pretty much like <br>
  380. # [23:17] <zcorpan> (unless it's in a <fieldset> that is)
  381. # [23:18] <annevk> <legend> parsing is kind of buggy everywhere...
  382. # [23:18] <zcorpan> indeed
  383. # [23:19] <a-ja> certainly is in ff....legend content ends up as figure's content in dom (and no legend in dom)
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  386. # [23:22] <a-ja> from you're comment re: <img>.....are you implying that <img></img> allowing fallback is in html5, rather than <img/> 's alt ?
  387. # [23:25] <a-ja> this is what i've been looking at, fwiw: <figure><img alt="fallback text"/><legend>caption text</legend></figure>
  388. # [23:26] <annevk> what comment regarding <img> are you referring to?
  389. # [23:27] <a-ja> <annevk> not sure about <legend> in <img> .....
  390. # [23:27] <annevk> oh, meant <legend> in <figure>
  391. # [23:27] <a-ja> ah
  392. # [23:27] <annevk> my bad
  393. # [23:28] <a-ja> np...you just saved me some re-reading :)
  394. # [23:30] <zcorpan> hmm. opera doesn't support display:table-caption on <legend>s
  395. # [23:33] <a-ja> seeing some text-shadow and box-shadow oddities in kestrel, too, btw.
  396. # [23:34] <a-ja> haven't come up with a simplified test case yet though
  397. # [23:35] * a-ja will when he gets some more free time
  398. # [23:35] <annevk> box-shadow?
  399. # [23:35] <a-ja> um....just text-shadow, actually
  400. # [23:35] <annevk> too bad :)
  401. # [23:36] <zcorpan> box-shadow would be nice :)
  402. # [23:37] <a-ja> kinda mostly works on safari beta (win).....a little shaky with border-radius
  403. # [23:42] <zcorpan> yeah, the new border stuff creates a lot of edge cases
  404. # [23:43] <Philip`> Was that meant to be a pun? :-p
  405. # [23:43] <a-ja> w/ border bg images, too, still? <haven't tried lately)
  406. # [23:43] <a-ja> heh
  407. # [23:44] * a-ja groans
  408. # [23:46] <a-ja> well....tks for the info, folks.....later
  409. # [23:46] <a-ja> keep up the good work!
  410. # [23:46] * Parts: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-209-111.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  411. # [23:47] <zcorpan> Philip`: it wasn't :)
  412. # Session Close: Sat Sep 08 00:00:00 2007

The end :)