/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 08 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [02:05] <Philip`> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000232.html - "How on earth can Wikis work if all and sundry can change what the previous author has written ?!"
  23. # [02:05] <Philip`> I'd have to agree that, in theory, wikis simply cannot work - the fact that they do work is almost enough to restore one's faith in humanity
  24. # [02:06] <Philip`> (Well, at least until they get flooded with wikispam, and then you return to a more realistic view of the world)
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  54. # [09:28] <Foone2> hello. I found this in the wikipedia entry on future firefox versions: "More API's implemented from WHATWG specs, such as the ability to read files from file selection fields without the need to upload"
  55. # [09:28] <Foone2> looking at the WHATWG specs I can't find anything related to that though. could someone point me in the right direction?
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  81. # [11:06] <annevk> Foone2, not yet specified
  82. # [11:06] <Foone2> oh. So what's firefox implementing from?
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  84. # [11:11] <annevk> an idea
  85. # [11:12] <Foone2> well, has anyone written anything down about this idea then?
  86. # [11:13] <annevk> yeah, there's a bug report with them
  87. # [11:14] <annevk> it's mostly sketched
  88. # [11:15] <annevk> basically, you get an "input" / "change" event and then a new member becomes non-null if the user has selected any files
  89. # [11:15] <annevk> which exposes a list of selected files
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  91. # [11:38] * gsnedders sighs
  92. # [11:39] * gsnedders can't ship the HTML 5 content type sniffing, as so many feeds are served as text/plain
  93. # [11:41] <zcorpan> gsnedders: are (m)any of those "text/plain; charset=X" where X is something other than "iso-8859-1" or "ISO-8859-1"?
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  95. # [11:41] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I haven't yet looked at the specifics
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  97. # [11:42] * zcorpan is hoping that it will be possible to limit the sniffing so that "text/html; charset=utf-8" and "text/plain; charset=utf-8" are never sniffed
  98. # [11:42] <gsnedders> even those are only sniffed to see if they are text/plain or binary data
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  100. # [11:43] <zcorpan> gsnedders: yeah, i know
  101. # [11:43] <zcorpan> but all text/html are sniffed for feeds
  102. # [11:48] * gsnedders wonders whether to just ship it, and possibly pull it at a later date if we get too many bug reports
  103. # [11:49] <annevk> how many of these feeds are discovered using autodiscovery?
  104. # [11:50] <gsnedders> annevk: I don't have that many stats readily available
  105. # [11:50] <gsnedders> http://macnn.com/podcasts/macnn.rss — there's the first failure I've found just going through the demo feeds
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  107. # [11:51] <gsnedders> served as "text/plain"
  108. # [11:52] <gsnedders> http://web.mac.com/turboderek/iPhoto/top-rides/index.rss — "application/octect-stream" (yuk)
  109. # [11:53] * gsnedders wonders how to sniff application/octect-stream
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  111. # [11:54] <gsnedders> http://youtube.com/rss/global/top_favorites.rss — text/plain
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  115. # [12:12] <annevk> http://www.html5.jp/trans/whatwg_html5faq.html (translation in JP)
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  118. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> annevk - can you please check and see if you can get to http://sideshowbarker.net ?
  119. # [12:20] * MikeSmith is at the Kuala Lumpur airport and having some problems with DNS on the wireless LAN here
  120. # [12:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: doesn't seem to load for me
  121. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - OK, that's what I was afraid of
  122. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> thanks for checking
  123. # [12:24] <annevk> nope :(
  124. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> annevk - k
  125. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> unfortunately that host also runs my mail server too, and because of DNS problems here, I can't even get to the admin shell to restart it
  126. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, very little I can do about it now, and have to catch a plane in 20 minutes
  127. # [12:32] <annevk> you're complaining about not getting to your e-mail? that's weird, seems like a luxury to me :)
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  131. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, guess I should appreciate the break
  132. # [12:38] <zcorpan> don't miss the plane :)
  133. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> hey, I've been wondering if anybody is aware of support for the inputmode attribute in any browsers (mobile or desktop or otherwise)
  134. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> I know Opera Mobile doesn't yet support it
  135. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> neither do the released versions of Openwave V6 or V7
  136. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> though I'm told Openwave v7.2 does
  137. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> I'm thinking it is probably supported in Access NetFront but have not been able to try it yet
  138. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> there's a test case here:
  139. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> http://testfest.openmobilealliance.org/xHTML_3c/Input_Modes/TextInputModeDigits.xhtml
  140. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> but, um, though it's being server up with an XML/XHTML MIME type, it has the wrong doctype and is also missing the XHTML namespace
  141. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> so sort of makes it problematic to test with
  142. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> I do notice though that the Openwave browser displays it in spite of it brokenness
  143. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> which would seem to confirm that it's just using its HTML parser and ignoring the mime type
  144. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> anyway, gotta go
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  158. # [14:12] <annevk> Firefox support for getElementsByClassName() seems also quite buggy: http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/getElementsByClassName/
  159. # [14:12] <annevk> Although I think most problems are related to the fact that they don't look for classes on the HTMLHtmlElement
  160. # [14:13] <annevk> (and for some reason <g:x> (with g bound to the SVG namespace) doesn't seem to implement SVGElement and therefore class="" doesn't seem to be supported there either)
  161. # [14:18] <Dashiva> We're still failing badly too, I see
  162. # [14:19] <annevk> oh, yes
  163. # [14:19] <annevk> alpha alpha alpha :p
  164. # [14:21] <annevk> Oh, another problem is that \f is not seen as whitespace in Firefox iirc
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  166. # [14:25] <om_sleep> we have a getElementsByClassName patch for WebKit as well
  167. # [14:26] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  168. # [14:26] <othermaciej> not yet landed
  169. # [14:26] <othermaciej> I added a link to the test cases
  170. # [14:26] <othermaciej> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14955
  171. # [14:27] <annevk> cool
  172. # [14:32] <annevk> seems your impl doesn't consider \f either
  173. # [14:33] * annevk wonders why HTML5 has \f as whitespace char
  174. # [14:34] <othermaciej> well, it's not even code reviewed yet. I'm not sure why \f needs to be treated as whitespace in the string parameter though
  175. # [14:34] <othermaciej> I'm not sure why it's necessary to consider anything but space, really
  176. # [14:34] <othermaciej> it's not like people randomly put form feeds in their scripts
  177. # [14:36] <annevk> i guess it's for consistency
  178. # [14:36] <annevk> and it probably works better if you do ele.getElementsByClassName(ele.className)
  179. # [14:37] <othermaciej> fair enough
  180. # [14:43] <hsivonen> http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Fthesis%2Fhtml5-conformance-checker.html&algorithm=html5
  181. # [14:43] <hsivonen> the abstract cell is associated with the author label
  182. # [14:43] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's a way to implicitly disassociate
  183. # [14:44] * hsivonen tries other modes
  184. # [14:44] <hsivonen> Smart Colspan is worse
  185. # [14:45] * annevk wonders if <table> is appropriate for that data
  186. # [14:46] <hsivonen> annevk: clearly, it is at least appropriate for everything but the abstract
  187. # [14:46] <annevk> the HTML4 algorithm is a lot worse btw
  188. # [14:47] <hsivonen> annevk: and since there's a row below the abstract, it needs to be one table for the columns to be held together
  189. # [14:47] <hsivonen> annevk: besides, the LaTeX and Word templates use tables, so it would be silly to have to do something more complex in HTML
  190. # [14:48] <hsivonen> however, one could argue that I should have headers='' on the abstract cell
  191. # [14:49] <annevk> it's not clear whether headers= is authorative or augmentative
  192. # [14:49] <hsivonen> also, one might argue that for this case, the HTML5 algorithm is Good Enough and it is obvious to anyone that Author is not the right header for the abstract if you start listening the abstract
  193. # [14:50] <annevk> Why doesn't the abstract simply have a <th> as well? (this is the wrong question to ask, but I'm curious)
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  195. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: because it wouldn't produce the exact layout required
  196. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: most of the layout carefully emulates a known-good traditional LaTeX template
  197. # [14:52] <hsivonen> (see comments in the CSS file)
  198. # [14:56] <annevk> maybe smart colspan should only look at headers which span as much or more headers than the cell they might apply to
  199. # [14:56] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@121-72-133-223.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  200. # [14:56] <annevk> s/headers than the cell/cells than the data cell/
  201. # [14:59] <annevk> smartcolspan doesn't look to the left otherwise it seems the same as HTML4
  202. # [14:59] <annevk> there also seems to be a problem with the second table
  203. # [14:59] <annevk> but maybe the tool only handles one table correctly
  204. # [15:03] <hsivonen> annevk: the second table has the exact sama structure
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  207. # [15:03] <hsivonen> if a cell spans a column that doesn't have a header cell above the current cell, then the current cell has no column header at all
  208. # [15:04] <hsivonen> analogously for rows
  209. # [15:04] <hsivonen> I wonder if applying that rule would break anything
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  211. # [15:08] <annevk> shouldn't you look further up as well?
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  214. # [15:34] <hsivonen> annevk: above as in anywhere above
  215. # [15:34] <hsivonen> annevk: I didn't mean only immediately above
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  220. # [15:52] <hsivonen> "currently I am writing from a mobile phone and for mobile devices the alt-attribute is more than essential." Huh?
  221. # [15:53] <Ducki> OK!
  222. # [15:53] <takkaria> if you want to save being charged ridiculous money, then I guess it is
  223. # [15:53] <webben> hsivonen: I imagine to speed up web access people will often disable images.
  224. # [15:54] <webben> takkaria: It's not just money, it's also speed. Mobile access is kinda slow.
  225. # [15:54] <takkaria> true enough
  226. # [15:54] * hsivonen has a flatrate data plan
  227. # [15:54] <doublec> i disable images usually when browsing from a phone
  228. # [15:55] <doublec> no flatrate data plans in nz :(
  229. # [15:55] <hsivonen> today, I could get a mobile 1M downlink for less money than I pay for an ADLS 1M downlink
  230. # [15:56] <doublec> nice
  231. # [15:56] <hsivonen> I used to disable images occasionally, though, back when I had a traffic quota for GPRS
  232. # [15:56] <hsivonen> but back then I wouldn't have described alt as more than essential
  233. # [15:58] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
  234. # [15:59] <hsivonen> competition and laws that guarantee unlocked carrier-neutral phones are good
  235. # [16:00] <webben> hsivonen: Maybe that simply reflects different browsing patterns between you and the author of the quote. (i.e. maybe the sites you were browsing didn't use images for anything important, or maybe they use alt so that you wouldn't necessarily notice)
  236. # [16:01] <takkaria> hsivonen: wish UK had those :(
  237. # [16:02] <hsivonen> webben: for me, when browsing using a mobile, the most essential image use case is maps (which don't have reasonable alts)
  238. # [16:02] <hsivonen> webben: textual directions are typically provided in page content
  239. # [16:03] * Joins: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b980ca.pool.mediaWays.net)
  240. # [16:07] * Philip` wonders if Hixie has any data about <script language> values
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  260. # [18:20] <webben> OT: does anyone know if there's a (unofficial or whatever) index to CSS3 properties in the current CSS3 drafts comparable to http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/propidx.html ?
  261. # [18:20] <annevk> for all CSS3 properties?
  262. # [18:20] <webben> yeah
  263. # [18:20] <annevk> I don't think so
  264. # [18:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: why did html5 change the tokenization rules for "<p<p>" before?
  265. # [18:21] <webben> ah well, thanks :)
  266. # [18:21] <annevk> should be pretty trivial to write a script that goes through a hardcoded list of drafts and then extracts them though
  267. # [18:21] <annevk> zcorpan, it was based on Firefox
  268. # [18:21] <webben> I guess.
  269. # [18:22] <zcorpan> annevk: that wasn't my question :)
  270. # [18:23] <annevk> hmm, change from what to what exactly?
  271. # [18:24] <zcorpan> from firefox rules to ie rules
  272. # [18:24] <zcorpan> two elements "p", "p" to one element "p<p"
  273. # [18:25] <zcorpan> (or well, start tag tokens)
  274. # [18:30] <annevk> more compat with IE
  275. # [18:30] <annevk> (and Opera)
  276. # [18:31] <zcorpan> but which approach is more compatible with existing web pages?
  277. # [18:34] <annevk> i think it doesn't matter
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  289. # [20:08] <zcorpan> try this. check the "XHTML" button in http://www.google.com/preferences
  290. # [20:08] <zcorpan> then load the front page
  291. # [20:10] <zcorpan> hmm, that option is only available if you use opera it seems
  292. # [20:10] <Philip`> Is it fair to call them bozos if they're not actually generating XML incorrectly, but are just transmitting HTML incorrectly?
  293. # [20:12] <Philip`> The "PDA" option just sends the normal page too
  294. # [20:13] <Philip`> so it looks like they've forgotten to do the bit where it actually sends different content depending on your choice
  295. # [20:13] <zcorpan> yeah
  296. # [20:14] <Philip`> I vaguely remember trying the XHTML option before and getting some odd minimalist version of the page, like it was designed for mobile devices
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  321. # [21:48] * Philip` wonders if it's best to just clamp shadowBlur when someone sets it really high
  322. # [21:52] * gsnedders wonders whether he should be coding, and watching TV, with laptop on lap :P
  323. # [21:55] <Philip`> Firefox 3 doesn't sniff http://youtube.com/rss/global/top_favorites.rss
  324. # [21:57] <gsnedders> Fx2, Saf3 do
  325. # [21:58] <Philip`> IE7 does
  326. # [22:06] <gsnedders> YouTube is the largest site I could find that did it
  327. # [22:07] * gsnedders sighs
  328. # [22:08] <Philip`> You could email them and ask them to fix it, since the next largest site with that problem is probably much smaller than YouTube and could be more easily ignored :-)
  329. # [22:09] * Philip` can't actually work out how to reach YouTube's RSS feed page, without reading the source code and following the <link rel=alternate>
  330. # [22:09] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
  331. # [22:09] <annevk> the idea is that the browser has feed autodiscovery implemented and offers the user a download link of some sorts
  332. # [22:12] <Philip`> That idea doesn't appear to work so well in practice
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  334. # [22:13] <annevk> dunno, it has worked for a number of people (enough even for HTML5 to include rel=feed
  335. # [22:13] <annevk> started here: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2002/05/30/rss_autodiscovery
  336. # [22:14] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  337. # [22:15] <Philip`> The link is just <link rel="alternate" title="YouTube - [RSS]" href="/rssls"> and points at an HTML page which has un-marked-up <a> links to the feeds (and also a <link rel="alternate" title="YouTube - [RSS]" href="/rssls"> pointing at itself)
  338. # [22:16] <annevk> oh
  339. # [22:17] <annevk> and then some people think the bigger sites are more likely to get it right
  340. # [22:18] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
  341. # [22:18] <Philip`> I guess the type="application/atom+xml" is necessary for autodiscovery in browsers?
  342. # [22:18] <zcorpan> yes
  343. # [22:19] <annevk> or rel=feed
  344. # [22:19] <zcorpan> is that implemented?
  345. # [22:19] <annevk> not in Opera
  346. # [22:20] <annevk> it's implemented in Firefox iirc
  347. # [22:24] <gavin> Philip`: I asked one of our RSS gurus about that feed, he didn't know why the behavior changed between Firefox 2 and current trunk builds
  348. # [22:24] <gavin> I filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=395533
  349. # [22:29] <Philip`> gavin: Okay - thanks!
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  352. # [22:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: I've already emailed YouTube
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  355. # [23:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: when serializing xml with innerHTML, may CDATASection nodes be output as data instead of cdata sections?
  356. # [23:19] <zcorpan> i.e., "ismorphic" in the canonical xml sense or in the dom sense?
  357. # [23:21] <Hixie> the text/plain sniffing behaviour presumably changed for security reasons
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  359. # [23:22] <Hixie> zcorpan: good question
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  361. # [23:25] <zcorpan> it would be nice if it were allowed because you can use c14n for test cases and you wouldn't have to worry about ]]> in implementations
  362. # [23:26] <zcorpan> though then ]]> in a cdata section would have to not raise an exception
  363. # [23:27] <zcorpan> hmm, perhaps you can't really use c14n for test cases anyway...
  364. # [23:27] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  365. # [23:28] <zcorpan> no, should be possible :)
  366. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: get my PM?
  367. # [23:31] <gavin> the text/plain sniffing issue that Philip` wasn't changed for security reasons, it's a regression from an unrelated change made to better support plugin content sent as text/plain
  368. # [23:31] <gavin> (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=395533#c1)
  369. # [23:34] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah
  370. # [23:34] <Hixie> gavin: :-(
  371. # [23:34] <zcorpan> except perhaps for one thing. c14n removes uncessessary namespace declarations. it's unclear to me if they may be omitted when using innerHTML
  372. # [23:35] <gsnedders> http://php5.simplepie.org/trunk/demo/?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fyoutube.com%2Frss%2Fglobal%2Ftop_favorites.rss now fails
  373. # [23:35] * gsnedders waits for a bug report
  374. # [23:43] * zcorpan files a bug report for gsnedders
  375. # [23:43] <zcorpan> ;)
  376. # [23:43] <gsnedders> :)
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  378. # [23:50] <annevk> Hixie, zcorpan had the idea of maybe whitelisting text/{html|plain};charset=utf-8 from sniffing
  379. # [23:50] <annevk> (if not much content is labeled as such)
  380. # [23:50] <gsnedders> annevk: it currently isn't sniffed, though
  381. # [23:51] <gsnedders> annevk: his point was more to avoid sniffing too much
  382. # [23:52] * annevk thought all text/html was sniffed
  383. # [23:53] <zcorpan> "Let official type be the type given by the Content-Type metadata for the resource (in lowercase, ignoring any parameters)."
  384. # [23:53] <gsnedders> oh, all text/html is. I didn't hear zcorpan say anything about that, I don't think
  385. # [23:54] <Hixie> i'm all for restricting the sniffing, but you'll have to convince the UAs first
  386. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: SimplePie 1.1 will ship with the HTML 5 content-type sniffing
  387. # [23:54] <zcorpan> i need data about how much it would break before trying to convince UAs :)
  388. # [23:55] <gsnedders> (but there again, we currently totally ignore content-type, so anything is an improvement)
  389. # [23:57] <Hixie> zcorpan: remind me next week and i'll look into it
  390. # [23:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
  391. # Session Close: Sun Sep 09 00:00:00 2007

The end :)