/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:06] <Philip`> Can an HTML5 document ever have more than one head element?
  5. # [00:07] <zcorpan> not by just parsing (otherwise there's a bug in the spec)
  6. # [00:11] <zcorpan> hmm. using c14n might be problematic anyway for HTMLDocument.innerHTML, since c14n requires a validating xml processor
  7. # [00:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: Okay, thanks
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  10. # [00:45] <Hixie> Philip`: it can via DOM and via XML, but then it can have almost anything that way
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  37. # [04:26] <Hixie> hm, rfc4329 doesn't actually define text/javascript1.2, it just says people use it
  38. # [04:26] <Hixie> guess i'll have to add rfc4329's list to html5
  39. # [04:29] <Philip`> I only saw it on 7 out of 16K pages, and at least the first 2 of those are the same user-tracking code
  40. # [04:29] <Philip`> At least the first 3
  41. # [04:30] <Philip`> At least the first 4
  42. # [04:30] <Philip`> I guess they're probably all exactly the same code
  43. # [04:30] <Philip`> (See http://www.allesjagd.com/start/index.php etc)
  44. # [04:36] <Philip`> Why does rfc4329 mention text/javascript1.(4|5)? I can't find any browser that supports them
  45. # [04:40] <Philip`> Oh, Konqueror supports them
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  48. # [04:51] <Hixie> supporting them the way the spec says to seems cheap and harmless
  49. # [04:51] <Hixie> (since it makes the language="" attribute a non-issue basically, a couple of lines of code)
  50. # [04:53] <Hixie> so in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0019.html john asked that i reply to that e-mail i said i wouldn't reply to
  51. # [04:54] <Hixie> i sent a reply shortly after http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0020.html
  52. # [04:54] <Hixie> i haven't heard from them since
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  54. # [04:57] <Hixie> so one thing that's weird about the argument that we should require alt text because that will force authors of sites like flickr to get the users to include alt text is that it's so obviously false... since html4 already requires alt="", and has for a decade
  55. # [04:57] <Hixie> yet flickr doesn't ask the user for alt=""
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  60. # [05:07] <Hixie> incidentally, http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Mission_Statement is quite a good statement, except for the last paragraph
  61. # [05:10] <Hixie> (the last paragraph makes a somewhat unjustified leap from their problem statement to a solution that is more extreme than required to solve the problem they put forward)
  62. # [05:10] <Hixie> but it might be a good start for text for the design principles
  63. # [05:24] <Lachy> Hixie, the problem I have with the alt="" debate is that I'm yet to get a clear answer to the question that: if omitting alt isn't the answer to the problem of what to do when the user doesn't provide alt text, then what is? alt="" or alt="some placeholder text"?
  64. # [05:25] <Lachy> And, if the latter, then what placeholder text?
  65. # [05:25] <Hixie> yeah
  66. # [05:26] <Hixie> the spec uses an example from flickr... i spoke to the person who put up that image, telling them that all these accessibility people were saying she should have included alt text (not that flickr lets her)
  67. # [05:26] <Lachy> although, as Steve Faulkner pointed out, omitting alt and letting the screen reader read out the file name isn't the best user experience
  68. # [05:26] <Hixie> she was like "uh, i don't care, i don't know any blind people, this photo isn't going to be looked at by any blind people"
  69. # [05:26] <Philip`> alt="the best metadata that the application can provide"?
  70. # [05:26] <Hixie> and i think a lot of people agree with that
  71. # [05:26] <Hixie> (though not accessibility experts, typically)
  72. # [05:27] <Hixie> well if the alt is omitted, the AT should do something better. we're at the early stages of image analysis, but things are getting better.
  73. # [05:28] <Lachy> indeed, like in cases like this: <figure><img src=...> <legend>Caption</legned></figure>, the UA should probably not read the file name by default and just use the caption (if no alt or title attrs have been given)
  74. # [05:28] <Philip`> Web browsers don't seem like the place to put technology that is an active research topic and still in its early stages
  75. # [05:29] <Lachy> that would fix the reading out long meaningless numeric filename problem
  76. # [05:29] <Hixie> yeah
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  78. # [05:30] <Philip`> (I can't actually think of anything even vaguely like modern research areas that web browsers are doing...)
  79. # [05:32] <Lachy> http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg30517.html
  80. # [05:33] <Lachy> that points to http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-AUTOOLS/#check-no-default-alt
  81. # [05:33] <Hixie> Philip`: sure, today, but by the time html5 is finished...
  82. # [05:33] <Lachy> .. which says what not to do, without saying what should be done
  83. # [05:33] <Hixie> and before html6...
  84. # [05:36] <Hixie> (the other funny thing is that actually, lack or inclusion of alt text is the least of flickr's accessibility problems)
  85. # [05:37] <Lachy> this response seem to be the bury-your-head-in-the-sand-and-hope-the-problem-goes-away approach http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg30511.html
  86. # [05:38] <Philip`> Around ten years from now? If useful image analysis libraries begin to become practical then, it's still ten years of people writing content based on the HTML5 draft/CR which will work badly in UAs during that time
  87. # [05:41] <othermaciej> flickr uses layout tables!
  88. # [05:42] <othermaciej> in a way that splits related content in different table cells!
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  91. # [05:55] <Hixie> more examples of poor alt text: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/TP-minutes.html
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  110. # [12:17] <zcorpan> btw, i've seen "download this video" links alongside the video on several sites
  111. # [12:20] <zcorpan> e.g. http://catpages.nwmissouri.edu/m/lgmf/video-clips/slide1.html
  112. # [12:21] <zcorpan> (that page could make use of <video><source>)
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  116. # [12:28] <jgraham> Alt text from an email I got recently: Oxford Playhouse Logo
  117. # [12:28] <jgraham> Floating Kate Rusby Jeremy Hardy Floating Kate Rusby Jeremy Hardy Floating Kate Rusby Jeremy Hardy
  118. # [12:28] <jgraham> Floating
  119. # [12:37] <zcorpan> jgraham: Brillant!!
  120. # [12:41] <annevk> For some reason I always get two commit e-mails
  121. # [12:44] <annevk> (from the html5 project)
  122. # [12:45] <annevk> jgraham, you should probably also update the comment that says that only "axis" makes it a heading
  123. # [12:47] <jgraham> Done
  124. # [12:50] <annevk> I think I might be on the commit list twice or something
  125. # [12:51] <annevk> jgraham, how about ensuring that a given header cell spans the same or more columns than the data cell?
  126. # [12:52] <annevk> this would help with Henri's thesis and my tmb table
  127. # [12:52] <annevk> and I can't directly think of any data cell that would have two headings and not be empty
  128. # [12:55] <jgraham> annevk: I'll try that
  129. # [12:55] * jgraham is going out now
  130. # [12:56] <jgraham> I also really need to write some proper tests but #algorithms * #options =a large number
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  133. # [13:00] <annevk> HTML5 also doesn't really take rowgroup into account
  134. # [13:00] <annevk> HTML5 algorithm seems a bit simplistic although at least it seems accurate
  135. # [13:06] <zcorpan> as far as associating header cells with header cells goes, it would make sense to associate a cell that spans fewer columns but not more columns, with a header cell higher up in the table
  136. # [13:07] <annevk> I think that's my suggestion, although I'd say fewer or equal amount of columns
  137. # [13:08] <zcorpan> yeah
  138. # [13:08] <annevk> probably analogously for rows
  139. # [13:08] <zcorpan> yes
  140. # [13:09] <zcorpan> ignoring <thead>, it should be possible to flip or rotate a table and still have the same associations
  141. # [13:10] <annevk> well, cells can span columns, but can't span rowgroups
  142. # [13:10] <annevk> iirc
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  144. # [13:12] <zcorpan> right
  145. # [13:13] <zcorpan> ok, ignoring <thead>, multiple <tbody> and <tfoot>
  146. # [13:14] <webben> zcorpan: Why would it make sense to associate...?
  147. # [13:14] <webben> aren't related header cells likely to span the same number of columns?
  148. # [13:15] <zcorpan> webben: yes (what anne said)
  149. # [13:15] <zcorpan> though only if they are adjacent
  150. # [13:16] <zcorpan> http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3Ctable+border%3E%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Cth%3Efoo%3Cth%3Ebar%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E1%3Ctd%3E2%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Cth%3Ebaz%3Cth%3Equux%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E3%3Ctd%3E4%0D%0A%3C%2Ftable%3E&type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8
  151. # [13:16] <zcorpan> there, foo and baz probably shouldn't be associated together
  152. # [13:17] <zcorpan> but should be with http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3Ctable+border%3E%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Cth%3Efoo%3Cth%3Ebar%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Cth%3Ebaz%3Cth%3Equux%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E1%3Ctd%3E2%0D%0A%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E3%3Ctd%3E4%0D%0A%3C%2Ftable%3E&type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8
  153. # [13:17] <Lachy> zcorpan, note the new tinyURL button http://html5.lachy.id.au/
  154. # [13:18] <peepo> ~:" just about to send something similar....
  155. # [13:18] <webben> zcorpan: When you say associated, what do you mean in this case?
  156. # [13:18] <Lachy> it generates that link and then gets a tinyurl.com/ address for it
  157. # [13:18] <webben> zcorpan: If you mean foo should be a header for baz, I'm not sure.
  158. # [13:18] * Parts: toolskyn (i=toolskyn@amy.bdick.de)
  159. # [13:19] <zcorpan> webben: yes
  160. # [13:19] <webben> zcorpan: If foo had two or more sub-th's that would certainly make sense.
  161. # [13:19] <zcorpan> why not?
  162. # [13:19] <zcorpan> yeah
  163. # [13:19] <webben> zcorpan: Or at least if at least one other th at the same level as foo had two or more sub-th's
  164. # [13:20] <webben> zcorpan: Because then it's likely that the first row of th's is being used to carve up the second row.
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  166. # [13:21] <zcorpan> hmm
  167. # [13:21] <webben> if each top th has only one "child" th, I'd have thought something else is going on
  168. # [13:21] * annevk wonders what http://html5.lachy.id.au/ does
  169. # [13:21] <annevk> Lachy, was today the day you were going to put that redirect in place?
  170. # [13:22] <webben> (I'm sure there could be instances where the same thing is going on; perhaps the subheadings are time related or something, and the table is automatically generated and there will be more subheadings as time progresses.)
  171. # [13:22] <Lachy> annevk, yes, I'm working on that. I just need to port the /faq/pl/ page across to the wiki
  172. # [13:22] <annevk> oh, missed that
  173. # [13:22] <webben> But it would be nice to see some live examples of th pairs to see if they do often differ.
  174. # [13:22] <Lachy> annevk, http://html5.lachy.id.au/ is what http://html5.lachy.id.au/output
  175. # [13:22] <Lachy> ... used to be
  176. # [13:22] <annevk> but the purpose is?
  177. # [13:22] <webben> Do we have any?
  178. # [13:23] <annevk> well, my table would benefit from that additional rule
  179. # [13:23] <Lachy> for generating simple test pages, without having to create and upload a file
  180. # [13:23] <annevk> Henri's thesis would
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  182. # [13:23] <Lachy> annevk, just like zcorpan did above
  183. # [13:24] <webben> annevk: Your table?
  184. # [13:24] <zcorpan> annevk: we're discussing what should be done in this case specifically http://tinyurl.com/2gtf6a
  185. # [13:24] <annevk> webben, http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/tmb-overview
  186. # [13:24] <zcorpan> if foo a heading for baz or not?
  187. # [13:25] <annevk> it is
  188. # [13:25] <zcorpan> why?
  189. # [13:25] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm
  190. # [13:26] <zcorpan> that's not the same case (they don't span the same number of columns)
  191. # [13:26] <annevk> oh, hmm
  192. # [13:27] <annevk> i guess it doesn't really matter
  193. # [13:27] <webben> it might be equally reasonable (for example) to assume the th pairs are equivalents.
  194. # [13:27] <webben> I don't think we can make any conclusions about whether it matters without finding some examples that are actually like that.
  195. # [13:28] <webben> I wonder if Philip could find us some tables with those specific characteristics.
  196. # [13:31] <webben> Alternatively one could just follow the html4 algorithm and assume people have assumed that.
  197. # [13:31] <webben> (I /guess/ that would make foo a heading for baz.)
  198. # [13:32] <annevk> yeah, I believe HTML4 does that
  199. # [13:32] <annevk> I don't think many people have read HTML4 table association though
  200. # [13:33] <zcorpan> since <th> is used in layout tables... :)
  201. # [13:33] <webben> zcorpan: How often is that?
  202. # [13:34] <webben> (used in layout tables, I mean)
  203. # [13:34] <zcorpan> not very common but i've seen it
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  205. # [13:40] <Philip`> I can parse lots of pages now (whereas before I was just tokenising), so I should be able to find things with certain characteristics (assuming those characteristics aren't too hard to determine) if it'd be helpful
  206. # [13:40] <webben> zcorpan: When you have seen it, was th still being used for headers?
  207. # [13:42] <webben> Philip`: would looking for <tr><th>+</tr> followed immediately by another <tr> with an equal number of <th> be easy?
  208. # [13:42] <annevk> Philip`, you finished your tree builder?
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  210. # [13:43] <Philip`> annevk: No, I used hsivonen's one since that's much easier and probably better :-)
  211. # [13:44] <zcorpan> webben: just recently when debugging a parsing problem in opera... can't find the bug again though
  212. # [13:44] <zcorpan> webben: the page didn't have data tables
  213. # [13:45] <webben> zcorpan: No I meant structural headers (where say <hX> or <dt> or something might have been vaguely appropriate), rather than for data headers.
  214. # [13:45] <webben> Or whether people just get th and td confused.
  215. # [13:45] <webben> (they're not the most intuitive of names!)
  216. # [13:46] <zcorpan> it was for the page logo at least
  217. # [13:46] <zcorpan> but that table didn't cover the whole page, just the top part
  218. # [13:47] <Philip`> webben: That sounds feasible, though I'm not sure exactly how to write the code to detect it (or whether it'd be easier with the DOM parser rather than the SAX one)
  219. # [13:47] <annevk> Philip`, HTML5 has an algorithm on how to construct a table
  220. # [13:48] <annevk> although maybe implementing that is overkill, dunno
  221. # [13:50] <Philip`> annevk: That sounds like it might be hard work, particularly since writing Java is no fun
  222. # [13:50] <zcorpan> webben: found it, it only had one <th> for the page logo http://www.itquestionbank.com/
  223. # [13:51] <webben> Well at least it makes a certain amount of logical sense.
  224. # [13:52] <zcorpan> yeah, but it's still a layout table... :)
  225. # [13:52] <webben> okay, so twisted logic ;)
  226. # [13:53] * Joins: grimboy_uk (n=grimboy@85.211.237.72)
  227. # [13:53] <Philip`> I saw some pages a while ago that had only <th> and no <td>s
  228. # [13:54] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070717#l-11
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  233. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://www.gbk-unternehmensberatung.de/ | 8
  234. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://www.new-video.de/film-lolita/ | 173
  235. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://www.chalupa24.cz/ | 2
  236. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://ccel.org/cceh/ | 1
  237. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://www.akatalent.com | 1
  238. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://www.spiderrobinson.com/ | 1
  239. # [14:02] <Philip`> http://www.soundmedical.com/home.html | 8
  240. # [14:02] <Philip`> are pages with the given number of <th>s, and no <td>s
  241. # [14:03] <Philip`> (Fun game: guess how many are layout tables!)
  242. # [14:03] <zcorpan> 7? :)
  243. # [14:06] <annevk> you're in on the next round in Markup Stats!
  244. # [14:06] * Philip` guesses that those people are just pressing the wrong button in their WYSIWYG editors
  245. # [14:08] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
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  247. # [14:14] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-153-137-94.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  248. # [14:18] <Philip`> krijnh: I think you might need something like white-space:pre in the IRC logs else it messes up my aligned columns :-)
  249. # [14:29] <zcorpan> pre-wrap ?
  250. # [14:39] <Lachy> is there a function in python that reads a file and outputs it, sort of like the include() function in PHP?
  251. # [14:40] <Philip`> print(open("filename").read()) ?
  252. # [14:41] <Lachy> yeah, something like that, but won't I need to close the file afterwards? Or does it do that automatically?
  253. # [14:42] <Philip`> I think it closes when the file object gets garbage-collected, which is at some unknown point in the future but before the program terminates
  254. # [14:42] <Philip`> so it only matters if you've got a long-running process and don't want to run out of file handles
  255. # [14:43] <annevk> there's .close() iirc
  256. # [14:43] <annevk> but i never needed it so far
  257. # [14:45] <Philip`> You can also do
  258. # [14:46] <Philip`> from __future__ import with_statement;
  259. # [14:46] <Philip`> with open("filename") as f: print(f.read())
  260. # [14:46] <Philip`> Uh, without the semicolon
  261. # [14:46] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  262. # [14:46] <Philip`> (but only in Python 2.5)
  263. # [14:47] <Philip`> which will close it immediately
  264. # [14:48] <Philip`> (The explicit close seems quite inelegant compared to Perl)
  265. # [15:02] <webben> Hixie: Ignoring the Hofstader-Clark antagonism, you may find the recent posts at http://blindconfidential.blogspot.com/ (about your blogpost re Jaws and Isolani's response) interesting. Chris Hofstader used to run the JAWS development team.
  266. # [15:03] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  267. # [15:18] <Philip`> '"For the best results using a screen reader we suggest you read this site with <some screen reader or another>."' - hmm, that sounds familiar, and I thought most people now agreed it's a bad idea (hence http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ )
  268. # [15:18] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
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  272. # [15:38] <webben> Philip`: I don't think most people agree with the Any Browser principle. Most people paid to do webdev work (from what I've seen) seem to care only about IE + Firefox + maybe Safari.
  273. # [15:38] <webben> Philip`: It's quite hard to persuade people they need to worry about ELinks or Konqueror.
  274. # [15:40] <Philip`> webben: At least that's somewhat better than "Best viewed in Netscape 4, 800x600 resolution, 16-bit color"
  275. # [15:42] <webben> Philip`: Hmm. I dunno. I see a lot of notices saying things only work in Firefox.
  276. # [15:42] <webben> Once Netscape 4 was the biggest and best.
  277. # [15:42] <webben> what really dooms such notices is the inexorable march of time.
  278. # [15:49] <webben> Philip`: See also things like: http://minghong.f2g.net/products/infobar/
  279. # [15:54] <hsivonen> hmm. contrary to what anne assumed, the cabal acknowledgment has been in the spec since at least May 24 2006 (likely longer, but I have a snapshot from May 24 2006).
  280. # [15:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
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  283. # [16:05] <Philip`> Hmm, looking at my old sites, the only browser suggestion is that users should use one with Java such as Netscape Navigator
  284. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: what did you use applets for?
  285. # [16:07] <Philip`> Wobbly text and marquee-like scrolling banners
  286. # [16:07] <Philip`> It was great!
  287. # [16:08] <hsivonen> ok. my previous statements about applet use cases hold, then :-)
  288. # [16:11] <Lachy> I just migrated this from the blog http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ/pl
  289. # [16:11] <Lachy> now I will set up the redirects
  290. # [16:11] * Philip` finds his ancient Theme Hospital site, and uses it to solve a mystery on a Wikipedia talk page about who first patched the "pregnancy" disease into the game
  291. # [16:12] <Lachy> Theme Hospital was an awesome game! :-)
  292. # [16:13] <annevk> indeed
  293. # [16:14] * hsivonen has no idea what Theme Hospital is
  294. # [16:15] <Philip`> http://web.archive.org/web/19991008150009/http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/7676/pregnant.html - hooray, layout tables
  295. # [16:16] <annevk> so much for cool URIs don't change
  296. # [16:18] <Lachy> annevk, http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/ and http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/pl/ now redirect to the wiki
  297. # [16:19] <annevk> cool, now hopefully people will update :)
  298. # [16:20] <Lachy> I wish I knew of an HTML to wiki markup script. I had to write a simple one myself, but didn't cover everything
  299. # [16:21] <Lachy> would have made migrating the pl version easier
  300. # [16:21] <Philip`> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~manfear/html2wiki-tables.php ?
  301. # [16:22] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  302. # [16:22] <Lachy> that looks like it only handles tables, not headings, links, etc.
  303. # [16:22] * annevk wonders why people don't ask the question: "why would it be non-conforming to include those characters"
  304. # [16:22] <Philip`> http://diberri.dyndns.org/wikipedia/html2wiki/ ?
  305. # [16:23] * Lachy should have googled for one!
  306. # [16:24] <Philip`> Do we have use cases for making the character "q" conforming? Could they be satisfied by only making "q" conforming if it is followed by a "u"?
  307. # [16:24] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
  308. # [16:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: there are some exceptions to that
  309. # [16:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Sure, but there's exceptions to everything, and we only need to handle 80% of cases
  310. # [16:25] <annevk> :)
  311. # [16:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: that's true.
  312. # [16:27] <annevk> however, apart from how to construct a DOM with them characters are more or less out of scope
  313. # [16:28] <Lachy> Philip`, there are plenty of cases for a Q not followed by a u. e.g. QANTAS, FAQ. Q&A, etc.
  314. # [16:29] <Philip`> Lachy: Those are all "Q", not "q"
  315. # [16:29] <Lachy> :-)
  316. # [16:30] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_containing_Q_not_followed_by_U
  317. # [16:33] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1255.html
  318. # [16:33] <hsivonen> hmm. I understood T.V. Raman's point as an indictment of designing specs for current JAWS.
  319. # [16:34] <hsivonen> I wonder if I understood his points right.
  320. # [16:35] <Philip`> Lachy: A few dozen examples, out of half a million words in the English language? The statistics aren't very convincing
  321. # [16:37] <Lachy> Philip`, sure, but qwerty is a very common word these days, and so it makes it into the 80% mark
  322. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: you look very qwerty today
  323. # [16:46] <Lachy> are you saying I look like a keyboard?
  324. # [16:46] <Lachy> :-)
  325. # [16:46] <gsnedders> I dunno. I'm just wondering what the usage is :)
  326. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: why don't we only handle 0.0014% of web content (i.e., XML)
  327. # [16:48] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk)
  328. # [16:54] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=qwerty suggests that "QWERTY" and "Qwerty" are much more common than "qwerty"
  329. # [16:55] <Philip`> so I've still not seen any great arguments for why characters should be conforming :-)
  330. # [16:56] <Philip`> (Switching the question from "why should it be conforming?" to "why should it be non-conforming?" isn't very helpful since it's not giving answers to either question)
  331. # [16:57] <annevk> there's a good reason for some characters, such as NULL, to be non-conforming, there's not really a good reason for the other characters to be non-conforming afaict; they're not causing interoperability concerns and it's out of scope of HTML to say what a conforming string of text is
  332. # [16:58] <Philip`> It would be easy if there was a design principle that said "things that don't cause interoperability problems should be conforming"
  333. # [17:01] <Philip`> The null character seems special since it's always(?) converted into U+FFFD, which is not what you'd ever want to happen, so it indicates an authoring error and conformance checkers should complain about it
  334. # [17:02] <Philip`> whereas any(?) other character is passed straight through, regardless of whether it's conforming, unless people want to convert control characters into spaces or something
  335. # [17:02] * Philip` isn't sure what happens in HTML5 if you try adding U+0000 through the DOM
  336. # [17:03] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
  337. # [17:04] <annevk> I think U+0000 doesn't reach the DOM APIs in some browsers and others remove it...
  338. # [17:04] <annevk> I mentioned U+0000 because it's special
  339. # [17:08] <Philip`> It seems IE7/Opera9.5 cut off the string after the \0, Safari3/Firefox3 keep the \0 (and Safari doesn't render it, while FF renders a little [00/00] box)
  340. # [17:29] <annevk> what is the Unicode character that lowercases to "i" again?
  341. # [17:29] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@c-180-171-10.l.dial.de.ignite.net)
  342. # [17:30] * annevk needs it to make sure comparisons are done based on ASCII
  343. # [17:33] <zcorpan> İ
  344. # [17:36] <zcorpan> ı might be uppercased to I
  345. # [17:38] <annevk> seems that IE7 does ASCII case-insensitive here: http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/global-attributes/contenteditable/014.htm
  346. # [17:40] * annevk adds a test for ı
  347. # [17:40] <zcorpan> annevk: ie also says PASS if you change the value to "blurb"
  348. # [17:41] <annevk> correct
  349. # [17:41] <annevk> which is why it's a good test :)
  350. # [17:41] <zcorpan> aha
  351. # [17:42] * zcorpan didn't read carefully
  352. # [17:42] <annevk> although they would fail again if I'm going to test for the specific error...
  353. # [17:43] <annevk> guess I'll do that in another test for now
  354. # [17:43] <annevk> tests are cheap
  355. # [17:43] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@212.42.170.220)
  356. # [17:46] <zcorpan> <!html html>? :)
  357. # [17:51] <annevk> way ahead of you
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  362. # [18:10] <annevk> btw, I wonder if the RFC for script types needs to be updated, after all, server MIME types are ignored and we could just say that the type= attribute takes certain magical values
  363. # [18:10] <annevk> such as text/javascript1.1, etc.
  364. # [18:19] <Philip`> Is the server type ignored if you send text/javascript vs text/vbscript to IE?
  365. # [18:19] * Quits: Ducki (n=Ducki@c-180-171-10.l.dial.de.ignite.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  366. # [18:22] <annevk> dunno
  367. # [18:22] <annevk> (read as: please tell me if you find out :) )
  368. # [18:24] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%20src%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhtml5.lachy.id.au%2Foutput%3Fdata%3D%2527%2B%2527%253B%2Balert%2528%2522JavaScript%2522%2529%253B%2Bif%2B%25280%2529%250D%250Aalert%2528%2522VBScript%2522%2529%26type%3Dtext%252Fvbscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%20
  369. # [18:24] <Philip`> It is ignored
  370. # [18:25] <Philip`> (IE assumes JavaScript regardless of the Content-Type)
  371. # [18:25] <Philip`> (unless you do <script type=text/vbscript> etc)
  372. # [18:25] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  373. # [18:25] <Philip`> (IE7, at least)
  374. # [18:26] <Philip`> It's odd how few people use VBScript
  375. # [18:31] <annevk> the spec doesn't seem to consider script elements without either type or language attributes...
  376. # [18:33] * Joins: Ducki (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b98073.pool.mediaWays.net)
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  378. # [18:52] <annevk> made some script tests: http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/script/
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  380. # [19:09] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T61b0.t.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  381. # [19:09] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/scripttypes.html
  382. # [19:09] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7879.t.pppool.de)
  383. # [19:10] <Philip`> More text/html than text/javascript? That's quite odd
  384. # [19:10] * Joins: PHPechowiec (n=Adrian@aaot24.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  385. # [19:12] <Philip`> http://www.artesea.co.uk/cnps/blogs/artesea.js - I wish there was a programming language where you could put images in the source code like that
  386. # [19:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-170-134-71.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  387. # [19:16] <PHPechowiec> Is there someone from poland?
  388. # [19:20] <annevk> Philip`, not really, application/x-javascript is the default
  389. # [19:21] <annevk> although I suppose it's weird :)
  390. # [19:21] <annevk> I updated my two tests btw to make them slightly more useful
  391. # [19:23] <annevk> seems that IE also executes: "javascript 1.3" and "text/javascript " etc.
  392. # [19:23] <Philip`> http://www.assoc-amazon.co.uk/s/ads.js - that's odd - it sends a 404 with Content-Type: image/gif if you do a HEAD request, but a 200 text/javascript if you do GET
  393. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: oh, that's nothing that odd
  394. # [19:26] * Philip` wonders if he should just do GET and try to abort the connection before it's downloaded the body
  395. # [19:27] <annevk> that's prolly better if you want accurate results
  396. # [19:28] <annevk> btw, it seems for type= and language= parsing some browsers simply use startswith("text/javascript") ...
  397. # [19:28] <PHPechowiec> where I can find about HTML5 inpolish
  398. # [19:28] <PHPechowiec> **in polish
  399. # [19:29] <Philip`> annevk: I didn't see that behaviour for type= in any browser
  400. # [19:30] <annevk> I only see it when I construct my tests wrong
  401. # [19:30] <annevk> I made a small python script to generate the tests and then I managed to turn some stuff around
  402. # [19:30] <annevk> so, oops
  403. # [19:32] * Quits: PHPechowiec (n=Adrian@aaot24.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Lost terminal")
  404. # [19:32] * gsnedders is going to fail Computing having missed the last two lessons — not knowing what the (wrong) answers are sucks :P
  405. # [19:34] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/scripttypes2.html - hmm, it's a bit better when I use GET and when I correctly stop processing 404s
  406. # [19:35] <Philip`> http://ads49.bpath.com/gif.cfm?ID=266432&Page=0&Ver=40 - that one really is an image
  407. # [19:36] <Philip`> but http://alissathechihuahua.freeservers.com/index.html includes it via <script src>
  408. # [19:36] <Philip`> Hmm, Alissa looks rather ugly
  409. # [19:38] <Philip`> http://environmentalchemistry.com/JavaScripts/Primary.js - how does that end up as text/css?
  410. # [19:42] <annevk> seems that there are almost no parameters around looking at your stats for <script type> and <script language>
  411. # [19:44] <Philip`> The few users of language=javascript1.5 that I looked at were browser-JS-version-detection user-stats-tracking scripts, so it seems those aren't used for anything important either
  412. # [19:47] <annevk> it's quite a big mess
  413. # [19:47] <annevk> and such a tiny feature... :(
  414. # [19:49] <Philip`> Can we just say that <script> means JavaScript and UAs can ignore everything else? :-)
  415. # [19:50] <Philip`> It's not like anybody really uses any other language
  416. # [19:51] <annevk> some people use <script type=text/xml> or something
  417. # [19:53] <Philip`> That wouldn't work too terribly if you parsed it as JS into an E4X object and then, er, hacked in a compatible API somewhere
  418. # [19:55] <Philip`> http://www.americasalfalfa.com/ - I can't quite tell what they're using text/xml for
  419. # [19:55] <Philip`> http://www.kinderklinik-buch.de/Neonatologie/Richtlinien.html - they're using it for exactly the same
  420. # [19:56] <Philip`> (Those are the only two sites I saw)
  421. # [19:57] <Philip`> (Still, it'd be nasty to prevent other languages or language versions, even if they're not used very commonly)
  422. # [19:58] <zcorpan> how do you allow other langauges for onclick=""? do we need to?
  423. # [19:59] <zcorpan> html4 says content-script-type, but i think browsers ignore it
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  430. # [21:48] <Hixie> anything interesting happening in the world?
  431. # [21:49] <annevk> http://news.google.com/ ?
  432. # [22:02] <Hixie> i meant in our screwed up corner of it :-)
  433. # [22:03] <annevk> oh, people played with tables and <script type language>
  434. # [22:04] <annevk> i pinged the guy on the forms TF who hasn't introduced himself yet as you suggested
  435. # [22:14] <Hixie> i guess i better do some work on datatemplates tonight
  436. # [22:14] <Hixie> bbiab
  437. # [22:22] * Quits: Ducki_ (n=Ducki@nrdh-d9b9805e.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  442. # [23:11] * hsivonen wonders how to force apache to respond with 503 with apache config only without having to resort to scripting
  443. # [23:18] <Dashiva> On what condition?
  444. # [23:20] <Dashiva> I know you can use mod_rewrite, but it's kinda hacky
  445. # [23:20] <hsivonen> hmm. RedirectMatch 503 ^/ might do the trick
  446. # [23:20] <hsivonen> Dashiva: on the condition that required modules did not load
  447. # [23:21] <hsivonen> e.g. mod_jk did not load
  448. # [23:21] <hsivonen> use case: admin updates Apache, forgets to reinstall mod_jk
  449. # [23:22] <Dashiva> Redirect 503 / should work too
  450. # [23:35] * Joins: weinig|zZz (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-a81ae52b31b50c5e)
  451. # [23:45] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137)
  452. # [23:50] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@77-99-141-250.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk)
  453. # Session Close: Mon Sep 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)