/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 14 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:21] <aa> othermaciej: Did you decide on a time to come visit?
  9. # [00:22] <aa> michael would like to join, but he is out wed-fri next week, so he would prefer the monday after, or else monday or tuesday next week.
  10. # [00:22] <Hixie> monday is no good for me next week
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  14. # [00:26] <aa> tuesday?
  15. # [00:26] <Hixie> wfm
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  22. # [01:00] <othermaciej> aa: I might be able to do Tuesday
  23. # [01:00] <othermaciej> (meeting right now though)
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  31. # [01:23] <Hixie> othermaciej_: renaming them to "studying existing practices" and "studying existing implementations" is nice, gives it good symmetry and sidesteps the whole kneejerk reaction, i like it.
  32. # [01:23] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  33. # [01:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, that's sort of the idea
  34. # [01:24] <othermaciej> idiomatic, punchy names are fun to say, but they seem to promote controversy
  35. # [01:24] <Hixie> yeah
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  43. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> I think the idiomatic names are more than just fun to say; they have the advantage of already being familiar to people and capture the ideas more succinctly, though with the downside of being less precise
  44. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> the alternative of being more precise risks watering down some ideas to the point where they have a lot less value in quickly and clearly making the high-level design goals more clear to outside parties who have not been involved in the discussions
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  46. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> the general slide toward meaninglessness that trying to get general consensus over language issues always brings
  47. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> "The faultfinder will find fault even in paradise.", to quote a little Thoreau
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  49. # [01:56] <othermaciej_> idiomatic names are great when there is a consistent shared understanding of them
  50. # [01:56] <othermaciej_> but some of the current ones (the Wheel and Cowpaths ones in particular) are widely misunderstood, to the point of seriously damaging their helpfulness
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  53. # [01:59] <Lachy> I don't want cowpaths renamed, but if it must, then we need to pick something good
  54. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - OK, then I can see it making sense to changing them
  55. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> Though I guess I would wonder just how widely they are misunderstood relative to any other such idioms
  56. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> all idioms risk being misunderstood
  57. # [02:02] <MikeSmith> I guess we need to consider if we are more interested in making the document easily and quickly understand to clueful people than we are to trying to prevent it from being misunderstood by less clueful people
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  60. # [02:13] <jacobolus> Hixie: line 24774 of html5 spec, has a <?p> instead of </p>
  61. # [02:13] <Hixie> thanks
  62. # [02:13] <Hixie> it'll get fixed in due course hopefully
  63. # [02:14] <jacobolus> :)
  64. # [02:14] <Hixie> right now i'm in the middle of a complicated edit
  65. # [02:14] <jacobolus> pretty minor detail
  66. # [02:14] <jacobolus> so no worries
  67. # [02:14] <jacobolus> thought you'd like to know though :)
  68. # [02:14] <Hixie> yup, thanks :-)
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  102. # [06:02] <Hixie> so what makes one an accessibility expert anyway
  103. # [06:03] <Hixie> since there seems to be at least as little agreement between the self-styled accessibility experts as there is between members of any other self-styled community
  104. # [06:03] <Hixie> e.g. software engineers
  105. # [06:05] <othermaciej> one may as well ask what makes one an expert on any topic
  106. # [06:05] <Hixie> well in some cases, a degree
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  109. # [06:10] <othermaciej> that doesn't seem applicable to anything software-related however
  110. # [06:11] <Hixie> yeah
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  122. # [07:09] <jacobolus> Hixie: are there some examples of accessibility experts whose resumes can be examined?
  123. # [07:09] <jacobolus> Hixie: maybe there's a pattern
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  127. # [07:14] <Hixie> jacobolus: not that i know of
  128. # [07:14] <jacobolus> you don't know of accessibility experts? or patterns?
  129. # [07:16] <jacobolus> Hixie: I see a link in a google search for a pdf: “Become an Accessibility Expert in 50 min”
  130. # [07:16] <jacobolus> so maybe you too can be one
  131. # [07:17] <jacobolus> whoa: " * Stuff to impress your Client & Boss with. * Surprise, it might be you! Who are covered in accessibility issues. * Wow, That’s allot of work."
  132. # [07:23] <Hixie> uri?
  133. # [07:23] <jacobolus> second link: http://www.google.com/search?client=camino&hl=en&q=accessibility%20expert
  134. # [07:23] <jacobolus> http://www.cfconf.org/cfun-04/talks/HAMMAN_BecomeanAccessibilityExpertin50min.ppt
  135. # [07:24] <jacobolus> that's not going to be much practical use, I'm afraid
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  137. # [07:27] <jacobolus> it has some good clipart in the corner though
  138. # [07:29] <Lachy> it's difficult to judge who is an expert. I'm sure there are a lot of people who either claim to be, or have been called by others, an accessibility expert, but whom are merely advocates
  139. # [07:30] <Lachy> but those search results include include people like Joe Clark and Gez Lemon, which could be considered a fair assessment of them.
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  142. # [07:51] <Lachy> I see Joshue accepted Hixie's invitation to the F2F http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000294.html
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  151. # [08:53] <Hixie> heh, someone proposed a way to change http to allow for the content-sniffing behaviour in html5
  152. # [08:54] <Hixie> but unintentionally they actually proposed making it far wider-reaching than the html5 spec allows
  153. # [08:55] <othermaciej> oh?
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  157. # [09:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: on www-tag
  158. # [09:12] <othermaciej> I'm glad the Transatmospheric Architecture Group is on the job
  159. # [09:14] <marcosc> ehehe
  160. # [09:14] <hsivonen> I think asking servers to return 406 more often is not going to help not to Break The Web
  161. # [09:16] <hsivonen> in retrospect, Content-Type seems like a mistake compared to making sure all Web formats had a magic number
  162. # [09:18] <hsivonen> fwiw, implementing the suggestion would wreak havoc with all the PHP scripts out there that serve images from a database and are hosted on Apache 1.3
  163. # [09:20] <othermaciej> magic numbers don't work well for text formats
  164. # [09:21] <hsivonen> #! works pretty well
  165. # [09:22] <hsivonen> a mandatory <?xml could work, too
  166. # [09:22] <hsivonen> and the UTF-8 BOM is pretty cool
  167. # [09:25] <othermaciej> I guess it depends on whether sending otherwise functional markup to be processed as plain text is considered useful
  168. # [09:27] <othermaciej> these TAG minutes have many interesting moments
  169. # [09:27] <othermaciej> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0071.html
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  171. # [09:33] <Hixie> magic numbers for text formats work fine
  172. # [09:33] <Hixie> but anyway, bed time
  173. # [09:33] <Hixie> (i agree that magic numbers would have been the better way forward, in retrospect)
  174. # [09:34] <othermaciej> metadata works better when it's directly attached
  175. # [09:37] <othermaciej> so is it at all common for GIFs to be sent with an image/jpeg content type or the like?
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  179. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: btw, regarding <m> and offset in the Web service formats: I think I could improve the usability of Validator.nu if I highlighted ranges of the source instead of individual points
  180. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: in which case I'd use heuristics for guessing the start of the range
  181. # [10:26] <hsivonen> (basically, the previous errorless SAX event location would set the start point of the range)
  182. # [10:28] <hsivonen> one problem is that in practice, there are two layers of errors: 1) exact errors from the tokenizer and below and 2) inexact errors locations from above the tokenizer
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  184. # [10:30] <Lachy> hsivonen, ok
  185. # [10:31] <Lachy> hsivonen, did you see the comment you got on the blog?
  186. # [10:31] <hsivonen> not yet
  187. # [10:31] * hsivonen looks
  188. # [10:31] <Lachy> (it's from me, nothing too exciting)
  189. # [10:35] <hsivonen> replied
  190. # [10:36] * hsivonen notes that markp has posted
  191. # [10:37] <Lachy> yeah, mark's post explains the longdesc issue really well
  192. # [10:39] <Lachy> I think I have another idea for how to represent the parse tree in XML, without simply dumping the whole document with a modified namespace
  193. # [10:40] <Lachy> and also an alternative format for JSON
  194. # [10:40] <Lachy> I'll make up a few examples
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  197. # [11:00] <Lachy> hsivonen, this is the parse tree in JSON. It gives a simple DOM like interface for authors to traverse. http://tinyurl.com/yowlqm
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  201. # [11:07] <othermaciej> hello Lachy
  202. # [11:07] <Lachy> hello othermaciej
  203. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: a very interesting idea!
  204. # [11:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what's your take on Lachy's format vs. SDF?
  205. # [11:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: Thank you!
  206. # [11:10] <Lachy> hsivonen, a slight variation to that idea would be to give it a SAX like interface
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  208. # [11:10] * Lachy is wondering why othermaciej pinged him
  209. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm most likely going to use SAX Tree as the internal parse tree representation
  210. # [11:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: lachy's format seems easier to parse but harder to read/write for humans
  211. # [11:12] <othermaciej> Lachy: I was just saying hi to be friendly
  212. # [11:12] <Lachy> oh, ok.
  213. # [11:14] <Lachy> hsivonen, s/SAX/XOM/ in my last message
  214. # [11:15] * zcorpan finds http://jsonml.org/
  215. # [11:16] <zcorpan> that seems to be designed to be able to express legal trees only
  216. # [11:16] <Lachy> zcorpan, where can I find a simple example to see how it works?
  217. # [11:17] <zcorpan> Lachy: on that page, "Colorful Table Example"
  218. # [11:17] <Lachy> ok, found it
  219. # [11:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does it do namespaces?
  220. # [11:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: doesn't seem like it
  221. # [11:20] <Lachy> oh I see, it represents each element as an array: ["nodeName", { ... attributes ...}, childNode, childNode, ...]
  222. # [11:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, it would probably do namespaces by serialising the xmlns and xmlns:foo attributes into the attributes object
  223. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah. eww.
  224. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Lachy: though the nature of namespaces is that they are incredibly wasteful to serialize without a compression mechanism like prior declarations
  225. # [11:23] <Lachy> it doesn't seem to handle comment nodes well either and has no support for PIs
  226. # [11:25] <Lachy> zcorpan, does SDF have to serialise the namespace for every non-XHTML element, or does it do inheritance?
  227. # [11:25] <zcorpan> Lachy: the former
  228. # [11:26] <zcorpan> it also doesn't know about the "xml" prefix, e.g.
  229. # [11:26] <Lachy> hsivonen, it really depends what the pupose of a parse tree is, does it really need to have all the namespace info for every node?
  230. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: somehow, I was assuming that it had to encode everything
  231. # [11:29] <Lachy> I wish the w3 validator didn't remove its parse tree option
  232. # [11:30] <zcorpan> Lachy: indeed, it was one of the actual useful features
  233. # [11:31] <Lachy> the parse tree should, IMHO, just represent how the markup was parsed, not a complete representation of the tree built by the tree builder.
  234. # [11:31] <hsivonen> Unicode normalization is an interesting issue for tools like Validator.nu
  235. # [11:31] <hsivonen> Validator.nu whines if the input isn't in NFC
  236. # [11:31] <hsivonen> so to keep it self-validating, I cannot show the original code points for non-NFC source
  237. # [11:32] <hsivonen> but then, non-b0rked Unicode renderers shouldn't suffer if I normalize
  238. # [11:33] <Lachy> I don't really understand normalisation
  239. # [11:33] <hsivonen> philosophical questions about what the "source" is in the context of a NFC character presentation when the source really consists of bytes
  240. # [11:35] <hsivonen> implementing showing source pedantically correctly in an interesting demo on how non-simple "just normalize to NFC" is
  241. # [11:35] <hsivonen> as the source positions need to stay anchored before and after normalization
  242. # [11:38] <hsivonen> I think that eventually I'm going to sacrifice some perf in order to get some sane separation of concern in the validator.nu internals
  243. # [11:43] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@124-170-114-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  244. # [11:45] <Lachy_> hsivonen, this was my idea for representing the parse tree in XML http://tinyurl.com/24nanw
  245. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Lachy_: thanks. It is verbose, but probably better than my namespace salting idea
  246. # [11:46] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@77-99-141-250.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk)
  247. # [11:47] <Lachy_> yeah, and it should be able to represent any document at all, whether or not the source was well formed.
  248. # [11:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <form name="foo"> is flagged as invalid for html4 documents in validator.nu
  249. # [11:48] <Lachy_> name isn't allowed on <form>, IIRC
  250. # [11:48] <zcorpan> Lachy_: it is in html4
  251. # [11:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you have a test case with a URI?
  252. # [11:49] <zcorpan> xhtml 1.0 prose says that it is deprecated but it's not present in the xhtml 1.0 dtd
  253. # [11:49] <zcorpan> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanhomeinspectordirectory.com%2Findextest.php
  254. # [11:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: well, that explains it
  255. # [11:50] <zcorpan> yeah. seems to be a mistake in the xhtml 1.0 spec
  256. # [11:50] <Lachy_> it's just one of those many undocumented changes between XHTML1 and HTML4
  257. # [11:51] <Lachy_> hmm. I wonder why so many comments are being flagged for moderation in the blog.
  258. # [11:52] <hsivonen> at least Relaxed has the same bug
  259. # [11:52] <zcorpan> "HTML 4 defined the name attribute for the elements a, applet, form, frame, iframe, img, and map." ... "Note that in XHTML 1.0, the name attribute of these elements is formally deprecated, and will be removed in a subsequent version of XHTML."
  260. # [11:52] <zcorpan> -- http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.10
  261. # [11:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. for now, I think I'm going to note this in documentation instead of forking the XHTML 1.0 / HTML 4.01 schema
  262. # [11:54] <zcorpan> and the dtd: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#dtdentry_xhtml1-strict.dtd_form
  263. # [11:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  264. # [11:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed in documentation
  265. # [11:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. (at least I now have a note about the bug in case I overhaul HTML 4.01 support some day)
  266. # [11:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: np
  267. # [12:00] <hsivonen> I want a streaming Unicode normalizer...
  268. # [12:02] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@124-170-114-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  269. # [12:02] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  270. # [12:03] <Lachy> it looks like Rob misunderstands when the spec says alt can be omitted. http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery#comment-8929
  271. # [12:04] <Lachy> his example is when the image is illustrative of the surrounding text, but the spec is clear that alt="" should be used
  272. # [12:05] * hsivonen wonders how many times in his life he will end up writing new line normalization
  273. # [12:05] <hsivonen> ooh. all the wasted productivity on CRLF
  274. # [12:06] <Lachy> indeed. That's got to be one of the stupidest things that various protocol designers (FTP, HTTP, etc.) have ever made
  275. # [12:06] <Lachy> s/things/mistakes/
  276. # [12:09] <othermaciej> you mean a requirement to handle all the various line ending permutations?
  277. # [12:11] <Lachy> not that they had to handle it, but that they handled it using CRLF instead of just LF. We can blame the system engineers before them that implemented CRLF and CR for line endings.
  278. # [12:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I mean having to write code to handle CRLF, LF and CR for the nth time
  279. # [12:12] <othermaciej> it's annoying but given the state of the world requiring exactly one of those options would probably lead to non-conformance and lack of interoperability
  280. # [12:13] <othermaciej> I blame the implementors of DOS and the original Macintosh System for not seeing that LF is the one true path
  281. # [12:13] <Lachy> othermaciej, yeah, we can't change it now, but CR should never have existed
  282. # [12:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yeah
  283. # [12:22] <Lachy> othermaciej, did you update Degrade Gracefully, but forget to check in the changes?
  284. # [12:26] <othermaciej> Lachy: I thought I verified that the new version was on the web site, but let me double check
  285. # [12:26] <Lachy> oh, never mind, it was cached
  286. # [12:26] <othermaciej> I like the way the rewritten versions of the principles are coming out but it's a lot of work
  287. # [12:26] <Lachy> the original design principles were intended to be short, clear and concise statements. The rewrites are becoming significantly more verbose.
  288. # [12:29] <othermaciej> yes
  289. # [12:29] <othermaciej> but I think they will also be more enlightening to people who didn't already have them as implicit assumptions
  290. # [12:30] <Lachy> given the parsing behaviour of existing browsers, using section { display: block } is really only effective in XHTML5
  291. # [12:31] <Lachy> sadly, graceful fallback for new block elements in HTML5 isn't all that great, but there's little that can be done about it
  292. # [12:31] <othermaciej> I guess I should remove that example then
  293. # [12:32] <othermaciej> I guess if you nest blocks inside it gets split by residual style handling?
  294. # [12:32] <hober> with <section><div>...</div></section> they end up as sibling elements, IIRC
  295. # [12:33] <othermaciej> hmm
  296. # [12:33] <Lachy> yes, though, that's not really a problem unless you also try to do: section { background: green; }
  297. # [12:33] <Lachy> or similar
  298. # [12:33] <othermaciej> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Csection%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3ETest.%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cp%3EThis%20is%20also%20a%20test.%3C%2Fp%3E%0A%3C%2Fsection%3E%0A%0A
  299. # [12:33] <Lachy> it is a problem if you want to use selectors like: section section h1 { ... }
  300. # [12:34] <othermaciej> seems to work as I expect in Safari
  301. # [12:34] <othermaciej> (in my current trunk build, anyway)
  302. # [12:34] <Lachy> that's because Safari is too good. Check FF and IE
  303. # [12:34] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  304. # [12:34] <Lachy> current release versions
  305. # [12:34] <othermaciej> I get siblings in Firefox though
  306. # [12:34] <Lachy> works for Safari 3 beta (Win)
  307. # [12:35] <hsivonen> hmm. the Feed Validator doesn't even try do source highlighting with finer than line granularity...
  308. # [12:35] <othermaciej> Firefox helpfully adds a _moz-userdefined="" attribute too
  309. # [12:35] <hsivonen> a highlight can span a line break in my design (since a tag can)
  310. # [12:35] <othermaciej> Opera also nests as I expected
  311. # [12:36] <hsivonen> which means I want pre handling for line breaks instead of one <li> per line
  312. # [12:36] <Lachy> hsivonen, is your validator's show source feature going to have a pretty print feature?
  313. # [12:36] <othermaciej> I guess I need to take that example out though
  314. # [12:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: I wasn't planning to pretty print
  315. # [12:36] <othermaciej> but not right now, 'tis sleepytime
  316. # [12:36] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  317. # [12:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: I was planning on dumping the source and the parse tree
  318. # [12:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: but not pretty-printed source
  319. # [12:37] <Lachy> ok
  320. # [12:37] <hsivonen> (preserving error positions before and after pretty printing is a problem I'd rather avoid solving
  321. # [12:37] <Lachy> so if you were to highlight entire lines, it wouldn't be particularly useful for input that uses long lines
  322. # [12:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: right
  323. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: which is why I want more granularity
  324. # [12:38] <hsivonen> but HTML doesn't do overlapping ranges (except in IE :-)
  325. # [12:38] <hsivonen> so I don't know how I could mark a range that spans a line break *and* have one <li> per line for line numbering
  326. # [12:39] <Lachy> <li>aaa<m>bbb</m></li><li><m>ccc</m>ddd</li>
  327. # [12:40] <Lachy> that'll work well enough
  328. # [12:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: not with the :target selector :-(
  329. # [12:41] <hsivonen> what's the CSS situation with making white space significant (including breaks) but allowing line wrapping?
  330. # [12:42] <Lachy> I assume both lines would be highlighted, but the :targeted line would be in a diff colour?
  331. # [12:42] <Lachy> like the IRC logs?
  332. # [12:42] <Lachy> white-space: pre-wrap; works in some browsers
  333. # [12:43] <hsivonen> does "some" include IE? what about WebKit/Gecko/Opera?
  334. # [12:43] <krijnh> Whuh, whah?
  335. # [12:43] <krijnh> IRC logs?
  336. # [12:43] <Lachy> see the styles used in the W3C list archive. e.g. this random post http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/0082.html - they use various proprietary alterntives
  337. # [12:43] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-107-149.ue.woosh.co.nz)
  338. # [12:43] <hsivonen> simple problems are surprisingly complicated when you start implementing
  339. # [12:44] <Lachy> krijnh, I was referring to the yellow highligting for important lines and orange for :target
  340. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: that one has -moz-pre-wrap
  341. # [12:45] <hsivonen> pre {
  342. # [12:45] <hsivonen> white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-3 */
  343. # [12:45] <hsivonen> white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; /* Mozilla, since 1999 */
  344. # [12:45] <hsivonen> white-space: -pre-wrap; /* Opera 4-6 */
  345. # [12:45] <hsivonen> white-space: -o-pre-wrap; /* Opera 7 */
  346. # [12:45] <hsivonen> word-wrap: break-word; /* Internet Explorer 5.5+; makes the CSS invalid :( */
  347. # [12:45] <hsivonen> }
  348. # [12:45] <hsivonen> cute
  349. # [12:46] <krijnh> white-space: -hp-pre-wrap; /* HP printers */
  350. # [12:47] <Lachy> krijnh, does that really work?
  351. # [12:47] <krijnh> (from http://ln.hixie.ch/resources/style/spaced.css )
  352. # [12:47] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-107-149.ue.woosh.co.nz) (Client Quit)
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  354. # [12:48] <krijnh> Sorry, I'm just dropping in the discussion, I'll leave again now :)
  355. # [12:48] <hsivonen> do people care about visible line numbers if you can address an error position by fragment id?
  356. # [12:48] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes
  357. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: :-(
  358. # [12:49] <Lachy> line numbers make it possible to then look up that line in their editor
  359. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: oh, the error messages would have numbers
  360. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: I mean does the source dump need to show them?
  361. # [12:50] <Lachy> it is convenient. That's what we need a ::line pseudo-element for to add line numbers without explicit markup
  362. # [12:52] <annevk> XBL
  363. # [12:52] * annevk is for less pseudo-elements and more generic solutions
  364. # [12:52] <Lachy> ooh, that would be a good example to do in the primer!
  365. # [12:53] <Lachy> but I'm not sure how it could work
  366. # [12:54] <annevk> a simple script
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  369. # [12:54] <annevk> split on \n and put it in <li> or something
  370. # [12:54] <annevk> although you still need some API to change selection behavior and such
  371. # [12:54] <annevk> well, a simpler one
  372. # [12:55] <Lachy> that would also split the <m> elements
  373. # [12:56] <annevk> hmm, if trey're used multiline I suppose you have to make it slightly more advanced
  374. # [12:56] <annevk> (that's a good reason not to add ::line fwiw)
  375. # [12:57] <hsivonen> annevk: there's already first-line that does styling in a way that doesn't match the underlying tree
  376. # [12:57] <Lachy> only if you care about implementation complexity for browsers :-)
  377. # [12:58] * Lachy doesn't have to care about that stuff for at least another 2 weeks
  378. # [12:59] <Lachy> (till I start at Opera, then such things will matter for me)
  379. # [12:59] <annevk> hsivonen, yes, and ::first-letter, they're annoying
  380. # [12:59] <annevk> (and underdefined for those specific cases of course)
  381. # [13:00] * Lachy --> dinner, bbl
  382. # [13:01] * annevk reads a funny discussion on the longdesc= debate
  383. # [13:02] <hsivonen> is there a nice way to capture fragment id changes in JS?
  384. # [13:02] <hsivonen> I guess I could use few lines of JS instead of :target
  385. # [13:03] <annevk> setTimeout()
  386. # [13:03] <annevk> HTML5 introduces hashchanged
  387. # [13:03] <Lachy> capture the click event for links and update
  388. # [13:07] <hsivonen> eww. setTimeout() can't be right
  389. # [13:07] <Lachy> hmm. window.watch('location', myHandler); won't work now :-( http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Global_Objects:Object:watch
  390. # [13:08] <annevk> hsivonen, just add an onclick= to all the links for which you want the effect
  391. # [13:10] <virtuelv_> hsivonen: while not right, it 'works'
  392. # [13:11] <Lachy> virtuelv_, it may work, but extremely inefficient
  393. # [13:11] <zcorpan> document.onclick = ...
  394. # [13:12] <virtuelv_> Lachy: sort of right
  395. # [13:12] <virtuelv_> what hsivonen wants is not an expensive operation
  396. # [13:12] <annevk> you need setTimeout() for real btw
  397. # [13:12] <annevk> otherwise you're not handling history traversel, bookmarks to the link, etc.
  398. # [13:14] <Lachy> maybe, but you'd still be polling the value every X milliseconds, where X is short enough to not provide a significant delay when the value really changes
  399. # [13:16] <annevk> 200 worked for me
  400. # [13:16] * annevk uses it in http://anne.is.weggeweest.nl/image-viewer
  401. # [13:18] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  402. # [13:19] <Lachy> annevk, looks like it uses 2000
  403. # [13:19] <zcorpan> ooh, <area alt> sort of works in O9.5a
  404. # [13:19] <annevk> oops, you want setInterval
  405. # [13:20] <Lachy> oh, I see
  406. # [13:20] <hsivonen> virtuelv_: ok
  407. # [13:21] <Lachy> ah, \setTimeout is used for the automatic slide show
  408. # [13:23] <virtuelv_> I remember, back in the bad old days when one had to use setTimeout to emulate onresize
  409. # [13:25] <virtuelv_> (Can't remember if it was for Opera or Netscape, though)
  410. # [13:31] <annevk> (I stole my technique from http://w3future.com/weblog/stories/2002/05/04/urisForDynamicPages.xml by the way. It's surprisingly simple.)
  411. # [13:51] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-107-149.ue.woosh.co.nz)
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  417. # [14:35] <annevk> interesting data from the German guy
  418. # [14:37] <annevk> anyway, time to go for the rest of the weekend
  419. # [14:44] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  420. # [14:49] <Lachy> that is indeed a very interesting conclusion. It'll be interesting to see the responses from those in favour of keeping longdesc
  421. # [14:55] * Joins: stelt (n=chatzill@82-170-139-154.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl)
  422. # [14:57] <Lachy> I wonder if the the cite attribute for blockquote should be given the same treatment as longdesc. i.e. drop it because a) it's not usefully implemented and b) <cite><a href=""> is more effective.
  423. # [15:00] <zcorpan> Philip`, Hixie: we need a survey about whether <img usemap> have useful alt text (on the image itself) often enough to make it useful to show to the user... (though i don't know how to perform such a survey, perhaps manual checking of some random pages that have image maps with non-empty alt is required)
  424. # [15:00] <zcorpan> s/need/want/ :)
  425. # [15:01] <stelt> Services working on files usually have both a file upload and a text field for URL. As web and local are mixing, what about combining these 2 form fields into one as well ? (i did a bit of javascript coding to simulate it)
  426. # [15:02] <Lachy> stelt, please explain what you mean?
  427. # [15:02] * zcorpan looks at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tagattr/img/usemap
  428. # [15:05] <Philip`> "useful alt text" is unfortunately hard to determine automatedly :-(
  429. # [15:06] <Lachy> Philip`, you just need to write some better artificial intelligence!
  430. # [15:06] <Philip`> Is it worth looking for a list of <img alt usemap>, or is it fine to just manually check all the <img usemap> uses for ones with alt?
  431. # [15:07] <zcorpan> i've looked at the first 4 in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/img/usemap although they all had no alt at all
  432. # [15:08] <zcorpan> so it would be useful to have a list of pages that have <img usemap> with a non-empty alt attribute
  433. # [15:08] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@128.31.35.222)
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  435. # [15:09] <zcorpan> or at least have an alt attribute
  436. # [15:09] <Lachy> Philip`, on the results page, could you show the images and alt text besides each other to make it easier to examine them
  437. # [15:10] <Lachy> it might be worth looking at the <area alt=""> of the associated image map too, if possible.
  438. # [15:11] <stelt> Lachy, instead of <input type="text" name="url"> and <input type="file"> (for either local or remote file) i'd sometimes just like something like <input type="local_or_remote">
  439. # [15:11] <stelt> i sort of simulated this with 1 <input type="text"> and
  440. # [15:11] <stelt> <div id="data" style="z-index:2;visibility:hidden;">
  441. # [15:11] <stelt> file
  442. # [15:11] <stelt> <input name="data_file" id="datadata_file" type="file" onchange="return divInputChange('data','file',this.value);">
  443. # [15:11] <stelt> <br><br>or URL
  444. # [15:11] <stelt> <input name="data_url" id="data_url" type="text" onchange="return divInputChange('data','url',this.value);">
  445. # [15:11] <stelt> </div>
  446. # [15:11] <zcorpan> first page with an alt attribute: http://www.harrahs.com/casinos/harrahs-atlantic-city/hotel-casino/property-home.shtml -- alt="brand_bar"
  447. # [15:11] <zcorpan> not useful
  448. # [15:14] * Philip` tries implementing the rules for parsing a hashed ID reference
  449. # [15:14] <Lachy> stelt, could you link to a useful example that demonstrates what you're trying to achieve?
  450. # [15:15] <Lachy> stelt, or fix the example you gave earlier.
  451. # [15:15] <Lachy> stelt, http://html5.lachy.id.au/?type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8&data=%3Cdiv+id%3D%22data%22+style%3D%22z-index%3A2%22%3E%0D%0Afile+%3Cinput+name%3D%22data_file%22+id%3D%22datadata_file%22+type%3D%22file%22+onchange%3D%22return+divInputChange%28%27data%27%2C%27file%27%2Cthis.value%29%3B%22%3E%0D%0A%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3Eor+URL%0D%0A%3Cinput+name%3D%22data_url%22+id%3D%22data_url%22+type%3D%22text%22+
  452. # [15:15] <Lachy> onchange%3D%22return+divInputChange%28%27data%27%2C%27url%27%2Cthis.value%29%3B%22%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
  453. # [15:15] <zcorpan> http://www.sil.org/computing/comp-morph-phon.html -- ALT="See Text Menu" ... hmm, denotes that it is a menu
  454. # [15:16] <zcorpan> although most client side image maps seem to be menus
  455. # [15:16] <stelt> Lachy, for example the W3C validator has separate forms for file upload and on-line files, if there was 1 input flavour that combines both into 1 it would make it a lot easier for both coder and user
  456. # [15:18] <Lachy> stelt, I don't see how a combined control would make that easier for developers. I'd like to see a functioning example of the JS solution you mentioned
  457. # [15:19] <Lachy> stelt, use that page I linked to before, write the markup and script, click "upload" to upload it to the clipboard when you're done and let me know
  458. # [15:19] <zcorpan> the w3c validator interface wouldn't really need separate forms, it could have one form with multiple fields for the input document
  459. # [15:19] <zcorpan> like e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/data/data
  460. # [15:20] <stelt> zcorpan, when you have a service that has a file for many parameters it will get you an ugly UI ...
  461. # [15:20] <Lachy> stelt, do you have a site somewhere that needs this feature?
  462. # [15:20] <Lachy> if so, provide a link
  463. # [15:21] <zcorpan> stelt: you could spice up the ui to be just like the w3c validator while still having one form
  464. # [15:22] <stelt> Lachy, i'm working on such a site
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  471. # [15:56] <Philip`> zcorpan, Lachy: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/imgmaps.xhtml shows images which have usemap and alt attributes, where the usemap points to an existent map
  472. # [15:58] <Philip`> (I only found one usemap syntax error (usemap="0") and two where I couldn't find the matching <map>)
  473. # [15:59] <Philip`> (...and 140 correct ones, from 1024 pages)
  474. # [15:59] <Philip`> ((I can look at more pages trivially - it only took a minute to run))
  475. # [16:00] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks!
  476. # [16:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: wow, that's really useful
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  478. # [16:03] <Lachy> Philip`, that's awesome!
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  480. # [16:03] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  481. # [16:04] <Lachy> #map21 is a nice one :-)
  482. # [16:04] <Lachy> Philip`, can you add numbers to the table to help identify them?
  483. # [16:08] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/usemap-alt.txt
  484. # [16:08] <virtuelv_> 1024 pages is a small sample, though
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  486. # [16:10] <zcorpan> virtuelv: yeah, but they need manual investigation anyway
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  488. # [16:11] <zcorpan> seems like supressing alt would be a good thing in some cases and a bad thing in others
  489. # [16:11] <Philip`> Lachy: Updated so it's numbered
  490. # [16:12] <Philip`> See e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/imgmaps.xhtml#10
  491. # [16:12] <zcorpan> it would be possible to catch some of the first by checking if there's exactly one area and it has same alt as the image
  492. # [16:13] <Philip`> If anybody wants more stuff to read through manually, I'm happy to do a larger sample since it doesn't require any effort :-)
  493. # [16:14] * zcorpan is happy with the current sample :)
  494. # [16:16] <zcorpan> e.g. #4, #29, #110
  495. # [16:16] <zcorpan> though that case is not very common and it wouldn't be very annoying to use both
  496. # [16:17] <zcorpan> overall it seems useful to never supress the image's alt
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  501. # [16:44] <Lachy> #10 interesting "[English Flag - click here for English version]" with a picture of the US flag
  502. # [16:45] <Lachy> it has effectively the same meaning, though still innaccurate
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  510. # [17:36] <Lachy> I wrote some instructions for posting to the blog http://blog.whatwg.org/submit-article
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  519. # [18:19] <Philip`> Ooh, APNG in Opera
  520. # [18:19] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-120-102.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  521. # [18:20] <Philip`> (That makes it more useful to draw auto-animated images in <canvas> than when you could only do animated GIFs)
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  523. # [18:23] <virtuelv_> Philip`: I'm not convinced canvii should accept animated images
  524. # [18:24] <Philip`> It'd make the sprites on http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml easier to implement
  525. # [18:25] <Philip`> (and save bandwidth, since most of the frames are the same)
  526. # [18:25] <virtuelv_> yeah, but what should happen with the different composite modes?
  527. # [18:26] <Philip`> Why would it be any different to drawing a static image, except that it uses the current frame at the time when you call drawImage?
  528. # [18:27] <virtuelv_> would require browsers to store the rectangle covered by the canvas
  529. # [18:28] <virtuelv_> s/canvas/image/
  530. # [18:28] <virtuelv_> not saying it can't be done, but it puts a toll on implementations
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  532. # [18:29] <Philip`> I don't want the canvas output to ever change automatically, since that sounds probably crazy and complicated - I'm imagining that you'd still have to manually redraw the screen for every frame, but drawImage would automatically pick the current animation frame each time you call it
  533. # [18:30] <Philip`> (which is what Firefox does, if I remember correctly)
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  536. # [18:44] <virtuelv_> anyway, how animated images behave should go into the spec
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  538. # [18:47] <Philip`> (Drawing animated SVG into a canvas is a more fun problem :-) )
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  541. # [18:52] <virtuelv_> drawing SVG into a canvas is a useful means to get canvas text
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  549. # [19:37] <gsnedders> how is application/octect-stream sniffed?
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  551. # [19:39] <chrismurf> what's the correct way to do dotted / dashed / etc. lines with canvas strokes? I expected strokeStyle, but that seems to be just color. Should I just draw/move/draw/move/draw/move (yuck) ?
  552. # [19:40] * Joins: weinig (i=weinig@nat/apple/x-8a2541317ad7691c)
  553. # [19:43] <Philip`> chrismurf: Currently the only way is to manually draw lots of short lines
  554. # [19:43] <chrismurf> Philip`, thank you. If you're Philip Taylor, I was just stumbling on your notes on html5.org on this topic
  555. # [19:44] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dash.html implements it in a slightly generic and not entirely bug-free way
  556. # [19:44] <chrismurf> sorry for not finding it sooner
  557. # [19:44] <chrismurf> oh - that's perfect
  558. # [19:44] <Philip`> That is me :-)
  559. # [19:44] <chrismurf> generic and not entirely bug-free is better than non-existent and buggy, which is what I would have ;-)
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The end :)