/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 20 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:50] <copper> Hi
  16. # [00:50] <copper> "Please leave your sense of logic at the door"?
  17. # [00:51] <Hixie> hi copper
  18. # [00:51] <Hixie> Philip`: so my original idea was to have bla{input::attr(value)}bla sort of stuff
  19. # [00:51] <Hixie> Philip`: but i'm not a big fan of that either
  20. # [00:55] <Hixie> i do kind of like the JS idea
  21. # [00:55] <Hixie> maybe we can say that any mutations of the DOM during expansion will cause the entire thing to abort
  22. # [00:58] <Hixie> Philip`: your 002 has an error -- your onchange should not be in &{}
  23. # [00:58] <Hixie> interesting error though. might well be common.
  24. # [00:58] <Philip`> Would implementors find it easier to detect and abort from DOM mutations than to make the algorithm interruptible on a timeout?
  25. # [00:59] <copper> People can't really serve their documents as XHTML because of MSIE... Since Microsoft doesn't support the development of (X)HTML5, does it mean that XHTML is definitely out of the window?
  26. # [00:59] <Hixie> Philip`: implementors have to detect DOM mutations anyway for other parts of the algorithm
  27. # [00:59] <Hixie> also, your data tree is non-compliant -- <div>s can't contain <shop>s
  28. # [00:59] <Hixie> copper: not definitely, but for now, certainly, i wouldn't recommend using XHTML
  29. # [00:59] <Philip`> (They'd have to support &{while(1);} too, so it doesn't seem obvious that they couldn't recover from infinite loops elsewhere)
  30. # [01:00] <copper> Hixie: on practical ground, not technical grounds, right?
  31. # [01:00] <Philip`> (or at least it doesn't seem obvious to me, but then I've never written a web browser and don't intend to :-) )
  32. # [01:00] <Hixie> copper: on practical technical grounds, right, as opposed to theoretical ones
  33. # [01:00] <copper> :(
  34. # [01:01] <Hixie> copper: but don't worry, we're working on html5, so html won't be left behind
  35. # [01:01] <Hixie> Philip`: catching an infinite loop in your own code is a lot harder than catching it in code you are running in a sandbox
  36. # [01:01] <copper> Good for you, but I was hoping XHTML would win eventually
  37. # [01:01] <Hixie> copper: well, it might eventually, if IE loses more market share or implements XHTML
  38. # [01:02] <Hixie> copper: HTML5 and XHTML5 are being developed in lockstep
  39. # [01:02] <Philip`> Hixie: I assume I'd have to use X(HT)ML to make it not non-conformant HTML, so I'm happy to neglect conformance for convenience as long as it works :-)
  40. # [01:02] <Hixie> copper: so we're agnostic as to which one succeeds
  41. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: well, you'll probably have to use XML for the datatemplate anyway
  42. # [01:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.200) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  43. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: e.g. your <rule condition="category"><option ...></rule> rule will probably not parse as you'd expect
  44. # [01:03] <Hixie> same as your <select> <nest/> </select>
  45. # [01:03] <copper> That's good, but it doesn't give people the choice to serve XHTML, because we are still dependent on browser vendors...
  46. # [01:03] <Philip`> Hmm, I guess that means I'll have to give up the convenience :-(
  47. # [01:03] <Hixie> copper: yup, not much we can do about that from the specs side of things :-)
  48. # [01:04] <copper> *sigh*
  49. # [01:04] <Philip`> except this is a non-working demonstration, so I can keep the convenience even though it wouldn't actually work in reality :-)
  50. # [01:04] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i don't expect to have <datatemplate> ever work in HTML5 without external files for the template at least (and the data, if the data isn't in HTML)
  51. # [01:04] <Hixie> (though the data could easily be in HTML, e.g. using <ol>, maybe marked up as a microformat)
  52. # [01:04] <Philip`> (Fixed the onchange)
  53. # [01:05] <copper> Hixie: do you know from experience if an X(HT)ML-only browser would be faster than an HTML/XHTML one?
  54. # [01:05] <Hixie> copper: wouldn't make any difference in speed
  55. # [01:06] <copper> just code complexity?
  56. # [01:06] <copper> or not even that?
  57. # [01:06] <copper> (on the browser's side I mean)
  58. # [01:06] <Hixie> copper: it's almost entirely the same code, except for the parser, which is just different, not especially more or less complex or slower or faster, and not even that different really
  59. # [01:06] <copper> I would have thought a tag-soup parser would be much more complex?
  60. # [01:07] <Hixie> not really
  61. # [01:07] <Hixie> and xml is pretty complex to parse itself anyway
  62. # [01:08] <copper> I'm a little concerned that if browsers continue to be conservative in error handling people will keep generating terrible code
  63. # [01:09] <Hixie> copper: html5 defines exactly what the error handling should be
  64. # [01:09] <Hixie> copper: and people will keep generating terrible code regardless of what browsers do
  65. # [01:09] <Hixie> copper: even if the code is forced to be syntactically correct, that doesn't guarentee it'll be semantically correct
  66. # [01:09] <copper> Even more so: people will be able to count on browsers handling their errors silently
  67. # [01:10] <Hixie> they already can
  68. # [01:10] <Hixie> Philip`: one advantage of having them be external files is that it makes it easier to build shims for IE, btw
  69. # [01:10] <copper> differences between browsers arise, which if I understand correctly, won't be the case with HTML5
  70. # [01:11] <Hixie> copper: there'll still be bugs
  71. # [01:13] <copper> hehe, I guess one can always count on software being buggy :)
  72. # [01:13] <copper> I don't have to worry about HTML5 before firefox 3.0 / opera 10 though, right?
  73. # [01:13] <Hixie> you don't ever have to _worry_ about html5, hopefully :-)
  74. # [01:13] <copper> lol
  75. # [01:13] <Hixie> parts of html5 are already implemented in browsers
  76. # [01:13] <Hixie> other parts won't be implemented for a decade or more
  77. # [01:13] <Hixie> if ever
  78. # [01:13] <copper> yeah I remember reading something about it
  79. # [01:15] <copper> hmmm... "XHTML content can be parsed with a simpler parser than tag soup can, and a _much_ simpler parser than SGML can."
  80. # [01:15] <copper> changed your mind, or did I misunderstand you?
  81. # [01:16] <copper> http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
  82. # [01:17] <Hixie> changed my mind :-)
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  84. # [01:17] <Hixie> that was written before we had a spec for html5
  85. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Makes me wonder... is xml+namespaces+allthatstuff still less than a html5 parser?
  86. # [01:19] <Philip`> jgraham: Your recent html5lib commit had "- return result" "+ return resutl" which looks like an odd change
  87. # [01:20] <Hixie> copper: (fixed)
  88. # [01:20] <copper> oh ok
  89. # [01:21] <copper> I've been out of touch with the web development word - has XHTML become a nasty word in a resume?
  90. # [01:21] <copper> s/word/world/
  91. # [01:21] <copper> s/nasty/dirty/
  92. # [01:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Which file?
  93. # [01:22] <copper> (I need to replace that brain -> fingers uplink)
  94. # [01:22] <jgraham> Oh, I see
  95. # [01:23] <Philip`> inputstream.py
  96. # [01:25] <jgraham> Philip`: Fixed. Thanks :)
  97. # [01:25] * jgraham -> bed
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  100. # [01:31] <copper> Alright, I'm off. Thanks for your insight Hixie.
  101. # [01:31] <copper> Good night!
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  103. # [01:36] * Philip` wonders which versions of Netscape Navigator supported the &{script}; syntax
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  113. # [02:19] <Philip`> http://www.allwords.com/word-comma.html - what are all those &wbox; and &cir; from?
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  115. # [02:21] <Hixie> good question
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  121. # [02:43] <Hixie> right, updated the spec to fix some dangling ends
  122. # [02:43] <Hixie> only things that need resolving now are the intro (examples), and how to handle selectors and how to handle text expansion
  123. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie - this is the first change since Aug 24, right?
  124. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> hmm, commit message for rev 1019 didn't get mailed out on commit-watchers
  125. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> I think because it was too big
  126. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> As far as I can see, the largest commit message that's gone out on commit-watchers was 43KB
  127. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> for r1000
  128. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> some that kind of makes me think the list config must be set up with some limit on the size of messages
  129. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> 40 or 45KB or something like that
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  131. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember that 40KB size limit being the default in GNU Mailman
  132. # [02:52] <Hixie> oh yeah
  133. # [02:52] <Hixie> i'm sure i have a limit
  134. # [02:52] <Hixie> let me fix that
  135. # [02:55] <Hixie> increased it to 1mb
  136. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie - cool, thanks. Pretty sure that must be what's been responsible for certain commit messages not showing up on commit-watchers
  137. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> btw, are you planning to be at the November tech plenary in Boston?
  138. # [03:04] <Hixie> oh yeah could be
  139. # [03:04] <Hixie> yes, i will be attending the htmlwg f2f in boston
  140. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> good to hear
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  146. # [03:57] <om_sleep> hsivonen: I like Joel's old "chicken and egg" strategy letter much more than the new one
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  148. # [03:57] <othermaciej> or at least, I find it much more relevant to the web
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  178. # [05:25] <Lachy> Hixie, in 3.19.6.3. The ref attribute, the paragraph beginning "If the resource has failed to parse,..."
  179. # [05:26] <Lachy> "failed to parse" should has title="datatemplate-template-failed" instead of title="datatemplate-ref-failed"
  180. # [05:26] <Lachy> s/should//
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  189. # [06:06] <Lachy> Hixie, Philip`, that &{...} macro syntax looks similar to JSP Expression Language, which uses ${...}
  190. # [06:06] <Lachy> http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/syntax/2.0/syntaxref207.html
  191. # [06:07] * othermaciej is wary of macro language microsyntaxes
  192. # [06:09] <Lachy> othermaciej, made any progress on the design princples?
  193. # [06:12] <othermaciej> Lachy: nope, but I'm about to do some editing now
  194. # [06:12] <Lachy> ok
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  204. # [07:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: have you sent all the offline feedback you intend to send or is there more?
  205. # [07:51] * Hixie 's next task is the offline storage stuff
  206. # [07:51] <Hixie> since i've done the template stuff first draft now
  207. # [07:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's on the todo list for tonight
  208. # [07:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: after I finish rewriting the next two design principles
  209. # [07:51] <othermaciej> I gotta tell you, I enjoy writing prose a lot less than I enjoy writing code
  210. # [07:52] <maikmerten> hsivonen: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/advocacy/2007-September/001441.html
  211. # [07:52] <maikmerten> (hi!)
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  213. # [07:53] <maikmerten> (ewww... why don't I see typos/grammar mistakes *before* sending mail?)
  214. # [07:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm reading the last few emails now
  215. # [08:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: I have something to say about the query string idea, but I want to make sure the follow-up emails haven't obsoleted it
  216. # [08:07] <maikmerten> hsivonen: http://www.annodex.net/TR/draft-pfeiffer-cmml-03.html <-- the CMML spec
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  219. # [08:11] <maikmerten> hsivonen: and the good news is that Firefox with Chris Double's video patch is actually well-prepared for annodex/cmml as liboggplay apparently has support for it
  220. # [08:11] <Lachy> maikmerten, that seems complicated. It's annoying having so many different formats that do the same thing (i.e. Ogg Writ, ASS, CMML - and theyr'e just the ones I saw mentioned in those emails)
  221. # [08:12] <maikmerten> well, Ogg Writ is actually buried
  222. # [08:12] <maikmerten> so one can take that off the list
  223. # [08:12] <maikmerten> ASS seems to be proprietary, so similar rules apply
  224. # [08:12] <Hixie> othermaciej: k
  225. # [08:12] <Lachy> CMML seems to do more than just captioning/subtitles
  226. # [08:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: writing the email now about the query thing, and I'll have more to come
  227. # [08:13] <Hixie> k
  228. # [08:13] <maikmerten> Lachy: yeah, which makes it so cool
  229. # [08:13] <Lachy> also complicated
  230. # [08:13] <maikmerten> you don't have to implement all of that
  231. # [08:14] <maikmerten> if you want just captioning I assume you can ignore e.g. the links to other annotated media
  232. # [08:15] <Lachy> maikmerten, what's the Skeleton thing that was mentioned? How does it relate to CMML?
  233. # [08:16] <Lachy> ah http://wiki.xiph.org/OggSkeleton
  234. # [08:16] <maikmerten> Lachy: Skeleton is a "codec" to embed meta information about streams into Ogg
  235. # [08:17] <maikmerten> Ogg will carry anything and for some applications it's useful to have information in place what *exactly* is in some multiplexed Ogg thingie
  236. # [08:17] <maikmerten> one nice property of CMML is that it's not just Ogg only
  237. # [08:17] <Lachy> is there a simple diagram or flowchart that shows how the Ogg Container format, Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Theora, Ogg Skeleton, CMML and whatever else fit together?
  238. # [08:17] <maikmerten> (I love Ogg, but one cannot expect it to be the only game around)
  239. # [08:18] <maikmerten> not that I'm aware of, but here it is in a nutshell:
  240. # [08:18] <maikmerten> - Ogg: simply a container, lightweight, low overhead
  241. # [08:19] <maikmerten> - Ogg Skeleton: a "codec" delivered by Ogg carrying information about other encapsulated streams (MIME-type etc. and whatnot)
  242. # [08:19] <maikmerten> - Ogg Vorbis and Ogg Theora are the most common codecs for audio (Vorbis) and video (Theora)
  243. # [08:20] <maikmerten> - CMML in Ogg is "serialized" CMML embedded as multiplexed stream in Ogg
  244. # [08:23] <maikmerten> actually the most common video files around are plain Ogg with just Theora and Vorbis multiplexed. One does neither need Skeleton nor CMML for basic video + audio
  245. # [08:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: "query string" email sent
  246. # [08:23] <Hixie> k
  247. # [08:23] <Hixie> you sending the others tonight?
  248. # [08:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: the short version is that I find it in bad taste to special-case the query part of the URI
  249. # [08:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: but I think it's probably useful to have some sort of fallback mechanism for resources not in the offline cache, and you need either that or the ability to exlpicity insert data into the cache to have offline apps support editing not just viewing
  250. # [08:25] <maikmerten> Lachy: basically Ogg Skeleton is additional semantics for streams (low level), CMML is additional semantics on content (high level)
  251. # [08:25] <othermaciej> I proposed something that I think is better than special-casing the query
  252. # [08:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'll be sending more, yeah
  253. # [08:29] <Lachy> maikmerten, ok, so for example. If I wanted a video with 2 main audio tracks and a director commentary track and a captions for each, I would use Vorbis for the main audio, probably Speex for the commentary, CMML for each of the caption/subtitle tracks...
  254. # [08:29] <maikmerten> Lachy: yes
  255. # [08:29] <Lachy> and then use Skeleton to describe each of those (i.e. language, etc.)
  256. # [08:30] <Lachy> then pack it all up in an ogg container
  257. # [08:30] <maikmerten> well, Skeleton is auto-generated
  258. # [08:30] <Hixie> othermaciej: k then i'll go to bed now and start writing tomorrow
  259. # [08:30] <Hixie> nn
  260. # [08:30] <maikmerten> but right, that's the general setup
  261. # [08:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: all righty
  262. # [08:30] <maikmerten> and if annodex.net wouldn't be down I'd now point you to the user tools existing to actually do just that ;)
  263. # [08:31] <Lachy> are the tools easy to use?
  264. # [08:32] <Lachy> one of the big problems with ogg at the moment is that mainstream authoring tools don't support it.
  265. # [08:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm still having a bit of trouble following the use of the 'new cache' flag in your second proposal
  266. # [08:33] <Lachy> I've made Ogg videos in the past by outputting MPEG4 from Adobe Premiere and then using ffmpeg2theora to convert it, which is annoying
  267. # [08:34] <maikmerten> well, ffmpeg2theora is the best known way, but there are actually GUI driven convertes by now
  268. # [08:34] <maikmerten> plus if you have e.g. the QuickTime components installed your iMovie-Apple thingie e.g. can suddenly export Ogg
  269. # [08:34] <Lachy> any available for Windows?
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  271. # [08:35] <maikmerten> Lachy: several. http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/TheoraSoftwareEncoders
  272. # [08:35] <Lachy> my Mac isn't powerful enough to do much video encoding and I don't particularly like iMovie
  273. # [08:36] <maikmerten> :)
  274. # [08:37] <maikmerten> many frontends to Theora don't expose all interesting tuning parameters, though - which is why I usually still use ffmpeg2theora
  275. # [08:37] <maikmerten> and in worst case there's always http://mux.am/ ;)
  276. # [08:40] <Lachy> hmm. having lots of parameters can be useful, but it's a pain for anyone that just wants to say convert myvideo.mov to Ogg. It took me a little while to figure out which settings worked best.
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  278. # [08:42] <Lachy> I tried using VLC to do it once, but it just crashed
  279. # [08:44] <maikmerten> well, VLC apparently also doesn't get the Ogg muxing right
  280. # [08:44] <maikmerten> I added a warning to the wiki
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  284. # [09:03] <maikmerten> hi doublec
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  286. # [09:04] <hsivonen> maikmerten: thank you
  287. # [09:05] <maikmerten> you're welcome :)
  288. # [09:05] <hsivonen> I get the impression that this area is being worked on but not quite there yet, as the people on the advocate list didn't have a single canned solution
  289. # [09:12] <maikmerten> well, CMML is ready and in use, it's just that it isn't a "caption-only" thing
  290. # [09:12] <hsivonen> it seems to me that one foreseeable issue with closed captioning and closed audio description is that for content provider buy-in, content providers need to be reasonably confident that the "closed" tracks don't play with browser defaults
  291. # [09:13] <maikmerten> aye
  292. # [09:14] <hsivonen> maikmerten: the CmmlSubtitles wiki page gives the impression that CMML captioning/subtitles aren't done yet
  293. # [09:14] <maikmerten> this is sorta confusing, yes
  294. # [09:15] <maikmerten> I'll better request if there e.g. are demo files
  295. # [09:15] <maikmerten> read: a real-life working solution
  296. # [09:16] <hsivonen> since this is confusing, I think it would be good for the spec to have a note pointing to the Right Way once the stakeholders agree what the right way is
  297. # [09:16] <hsivonen> the HTML 5 spec, that is
  298. # [09:17] <maikmerten> yeah
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  300. # [09:19] <maikmerten> if HTML 5 raises special needs for captioning it may make sense to e.g. have a list of requirements to be met somewhere
  301. # [09:19] <maikmerten> if captioning in CMML isn't set in stone yet it should be possible to make sure the spec turns out well-shaped for those needs
  302. # [09:20] <Lachy> maikmerten, does VLC support captions made with CMML?
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  305. # [09:23] <maikmerten> Lachy: well, VLC supports CMML since 2004, but I don't know to what extend
  306. # [09:24] <maikmerten> the cmml code hooks e.g. into the OSD code - which may be used for captions
  307. # [09:24] <maikmerten> http://www.videolan.org/developers/vlc/doc/doxygen/html/cmml_8c.html
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  315. # [09:36] <hsivonen> does the cmml code do its own cross-platform text layout or is text layout and compositing the responsibility of the player application?
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  317. # [09:56] <kfish> hi
  318. # [09:56] <kfish> hsivonen, it's the responsibility of the player
  319. # [09:57] <kfish> http://trac.annodex.net/wiki/CmmlStyleSheets
  320. # [09:58] <hsivonen> kfish: ok.
  321. # [09:59] <kfish> it would probably be good to spec that up together with html5
  322. # [10:00] <kfish> we designed cmml to use existing xhtml4(?) modules where possible
  323. # [10:00] <hsivonen> CMML looks rather complex. there have already been question of reinventing SMIL
  324. # [10:00] <kfish> hmm, cmml is pretty simple, and the goals are different to those of smil
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  326. # [10:02] <hsivonen> it looks like supporting captioning will involve more in a browser than just flipping a switch in an off-the-shelf library :-/
  327. # [10:02] <hsivonen> whereas one might hope that implementing audio descriptions would be a matter of conditionally playing an audio track based on prefs and metadata
  328. # [10:03] <kfish> ok, so for just getting caption text without styling it, using plain cmml is fine
  329. # [10:03] <hsivonen> good
  330. # [10:04] <kfish> so eg. xine will just display the contents of the <desc> tag as a caption, without styling
  331. # [10:06] <kfish> an earlier annodex firefox extension displayed a line of plain text under the video
  332. # [10:06] <kfish> a symbian browser we did just displayed on-screen as a caption
  333. # [10:14] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_accessibility
  334. # [10:14] <hsivonen> I wrote up the issues without solutions as a wiki page
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  342. # [11:03] <hsivonen> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000349.html
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  344. # [11:09] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's an existing practice of shoehorning URLs into the GNU error format that expects filenames that cannot contain the colon
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  346. # [11:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: re the link above; that's exactly what i've noted as well, and i think we would be better off if browsers treated all positive values as 0 and only 0 and -1 were conforming
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  348. # [11:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is email about that already logged in the whatwg archives?
  349. # [11:16] <zcorpan> i think so, or something along those lines anyway
  350. # [11:16] <hsivonen> ok
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  352. # [11:17] <othermaciej> it seems like tabindex can be useful in theory if the visual order of things is different than the source order
  353. # [11:17] <othermaciej> but the visual order is controlled by CSS, not markup
  354. # [11:18] <othermaciej> so it would be wrong to have tab indices tied to the presumed visual order in the markup
  355. # [11:18] <othermaciej> but it might be useful to say you want tabbing to prefer the onscreen visual order of controls
  356. # [11:18] <zcorpan> othermaciej: even if you want to change the order, tabindex as implemented doesn't work the way authors think it works
  357. # [11:19] <othermaciej> zcorpan: what is the point of author confusion (besides just not realizing that it's usually not necessary)?
  358. # [11:20] <zcorpan> don't ask me, i didn't spec it in html4 :)
  359. # [11:20] <othermaciej> zcorpan: the feature I would propose would be to express a preference for visual or source order for the next control, but still let the UA build the tab loop
  360. # [11:20] <hsivonen> othermaciej: wouldn't it be better to leave the visual tab order to the UAs spatial navigation algorithm?
  361. # [11:20] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I'm not sure what you mean by "tabindex as implemented doesn't work the way authors think it works"
  362. # [11:21] <zcorpan> othermaciej: elements with tabindex come first in the taborder, before any elements that are before them in the source
  363. # [11:21] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I guess the only problem with source order that is actually at all likely to come up is when you use layout tables
  364. # [11:22] <othermaciej> zcorpan: ah yes, that seems bad, since it makes tabindex viral
  365. # [11:22] <hsivonen> othermaciej: or, in theory, wild CSS positioning
  366. # [11:22] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yeah, but wild CSS positioning seems less likely to put individual controls out of order
  367. # [11:22] <othermaciej> as opposed to, say, a two-column layout table with two forms to fill out, each made of multiple rows
  368. # [11:23] <othermaciej> the CSS ways to lay that out would leave the controls of each individual form in order
  369. # [11:24] <othermaciej> I'm trying to think about non-obvious tab orders that may be desirable
  370. # [11:24] <othermaciej> you might want a sidebar on the left to be in the tab cycle after some form content in the main area
  371. # [11:25] <othermaciej> but that only requires the ability to say where to start
  372. # [11:25] <othermaciej> maybe the ability to give the start position and to possibly give the tab index of the next control would do for such cases
  373. # [11:25] <othermaciej> tabnext="ID"
  374. # [11:26] <hsivonen> here's an example of a page that micromanages tab order and often manages to annoy me for it: http://aikataulut.ytv.fi/reittiopas/en/
  375. # [11:26] <hsivonen> if I want to tab around, I want to enter a target time
  376. # [11:27] <hsivonen> if I just want to submit after entering the start and end addresses, I just press enter
  377. # [11:27] <othermaciej> ah
  378. # [11:27] <othermaciej> it didn't annoy me in Safari since buttons are not keyboard focusable by default
  379. # [11:28] <othermaciej> that is indeed an annoying tab order
  380. # [11:34] <hsivonen> btw, the result pages for that service could benefit from an attribute that vehemently asserts that a table is not a layout table and shouldn't be linearized
  381. # [11:40] <othermaciej> do they otherwise look like layout tables?
  382. # [11:41] <othermaciej> it seems to use TD elements for headers, I guess that's bad
  383. # [11:51] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it is good to linearize all other tables except the table that shows the suggested routes
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  385. # [11:56] <othermaciej> I wonder if the html4all list is the reason for reduced public-html email traffic
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  398. # [12:50] <hendry> oversimplying greatly: there is to types of writing standards. writing standards when none exists
  399. # [12:50] <hendry> what is that called?
  400. # [12:51] <hendry> then there is whatwg style, studying existing implementations.
  401. # [12:51] <hendry> just wondering what the catch line is for these approaches
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  414. # [13:16] * zcorpan likes othermaciej's shortcutkey proposal
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  417. # [13:18] <othermaciej> zcorpan: pleased to hear it
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  419. # [13:22] <hsivonen> btw, I've seen 0-9 access keys presented visually on sites that "helpfully" sniff that I'm using a phone to browse. I haven't yet even learned how to use numeric access keys in S60 Browser or Opera for Mobile...
  420. # [13:23] <hsivonen> just scrolling around as usual seems to be a more effective cross-site strategy than learning what the shortcuts are on a particular site--especially if they are documented at the bottom of the page as on CNN, so once you get to the access keys, you've already scrolled through the whole page the usual way
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  425. # [13:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but if you visit cnn often then you might remember the shortcuts and use them
  426. # [13:36] <hsivonen> othermaciej: your shortcut key proposal looks good to me, except it lacks graceful degradation to 0-9 accesskeys
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  429. # [13:37] <othermaciej> hsivonen: you mean literally using the accesskey attribute?
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  431. # [13:37] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it doesn't conflict with also using accesskey="1", although it doesn't help you there either
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  433. # [13:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I didn't have any particular solution in mind
  434. # [13:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: but yeah, using also the accesskey attribute would work for legacy UA support
  435. # [13:40] <othermaciej> also using accesskey works for legacy UAs
  436. # [13:40] <othermaciej> if you mean just working on HTML5 UAs on devices that only offer 0-9, I think that is adequately covered
  437. # [13:40] <zcorpan> i wonder if it would work to hijack the accesskey attribute
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  439. # [13:41] <othermaciej> I suspect including multiple space-separated items would make accesskey ineffective in current UAs
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  441. # [13:42] <othermaciej> and you need either that or no value provided to make nice shortcuts on both desktop and mobile
  442. # [13:42] <zcorpan> true, but that would be an extension to accesskey
  443. # [13:42] <zcorpan> that it breaks in legacy uas doesn't seem like a showstopper to me
  444. # [13:43] <Lachy> it's a reasonable proposal, it certainly fixes many of the problems with accesskey
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  446. # [13:43] <zcorpan> since the current best practice is to not use accesskey at all, aiui
  447. # [13:43] <hsivonen> interestingly, 0-9 accesskey map to bare keys in Opera for Mobile, which more often gets sniffed as a full content browser, but they don't in S60 browser which more often gets sniffed as a mobile browser eligible for "mobile content"
  448. # [13:43] <othermaciej> if you're going to break in legacy UAs anyway, you may as well use a different name
  449. # [13:43] <zcorpan> othermaciej: but some sites already use accesskey
  450. # [13:44] <zcorpan> othermaciej: it would be nice to just make them DTRT
  451. # [13:44] <Lachy> I really like the idea of using a different name too, accesskey should be forbidden and UAs should start to turn off support for it (at least by default)
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  453. # [13:45] <othermaciej> zcorpan: true, but there's no way to solve the "lack of a good label" problem, and that actually makes it harder to use both shortcutkey for new UAs and accesskey for downlevel support
  454. # [13:45] <zcorpan> othermaciej: right, indeed
  455. # [13:46] <othermaciej> also taking access out of the name will stop people from thinking it is just for accessibility and therefore make them more likely to use it effectively
  456. # [13:46] <othermaciej> which will in the end likely aid accessibility
  457. # [13:46] <othermaciej> despite advertising it less
  458. # [13:47] <hsivonen> comparing S60 browser and Opera for Mobile, I'm inclined to think that for the accesskeyless real Web out there, taking the bare keys to the UA is the better way
  459. # [13:47] <Lachy> would shortcutkey="" only be allowed on <command> elements?
  460. # [13:47] <zcorpan> btw, doesn't DOMFocusIn bubble?
  461. # [13:48] <othermaciej> it could be only on <command>, or on any command elements
  462. # [13:48] <othermaciej> also it would be defined to activate, unlike accesskey which in theory per spec is supposed to focus (I guess I forgot to mention that because I forgot accesskey does that)
  463. # [13:49] <zcorpan> "Pressing an access key assigned to an element gives focus to the element. The action that occurs when an element receives focus depends on the element. For example, when a user activates a link defined by the A element, the user agent generally follows the link."
  464. # [13:49] <zcorpan> hmm
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  466. # [13:50] <othermaciej> yeah, it seems confused about the distinction between focus and activation
  467. # [13:50] <Lachy> maybe the attribute could just be called shortcut="" or key="", since shortcutkey="" seems a little long
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  469. # [13:51] <othermaciej> I thought of both of those, and they seemed to me like they could be confused with other things, but I don't feel strongly either way
  470. # [13:51] <Lachy> XHTML2 uses <access key="">
  471. # [13:52] <othermaciej> great, we could align with XHTML2 then :-)
  472. # [13:52] <othermaciej> except with <command> instead of access
  473. # [13:52] <othermaciej> I suppose this might arguably make it useful to make a focus command type, so you can declare a shortcut key to focus a control in a way that works with script disabled or unavailable
  474. # [13:53] <Lachy> I think, if I understand it correctly, XHTML2 could provide multiple access keys using multiple <access> element with the targetid="" pointing to the same target. Using a space separated attr is so much easier
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  477. # [13:56] <Lachy> another way to improve shortcut keys (although this is really an implementation detail) is for browsers to provide a special Web App mode where the web application is treated more like a native app and the browser's own keyboard shortcuts don't apply for that window
  478. # [13:57] <Lachy> ... so Ctrl+N on Gmail could, for example, mean compose new message, rather than open new window
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  483. # [14:02] <Lachy> should we allow authors to recommend modifier keys? e.g. <command shortcutkey="Control+N" (where Control, Alt, Shift, etc. are the names of the modifier keys defined in DOM3 Events)
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  485. # [14:03] <Lachy> it would make sense if web apps or even widgets (like Dashboard) can be treated more like native apps
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  488. # [14:11] <othermaciej> Lachy: recommending modifiers would probably only be useful in contexts where there aren't already keyboard shortcuts to conflict with (like a hypothetical app mode)
  489. # [14:11] <othermaciej> Lachy: also preferred shortcut modifiers vary with platform
  490. # [14:12] <othermaciej> Control is the normal shortcut modifier on Windows and Linux but is almost never used for keyboard shortcuts on the Mac (Command is the most common modifier)
  491. # [14:12] <othermaciej> Command usually maps to "Meta" in the DOM3 Events sense
  492. # [14:13] <Lachy> I thought Command would map to Control
  493. # [14:13] <othermaciej> no, Control maps to Control
  494. # [14:13] <othermaciej> Option maps to Alt
  495. # [14:13] <Lachy> oh right.
  496. # [14:13] <othermaciej> Shift maps to Shift
  497. # [14:13] <othermaciej> that only leaves one modifier :-)
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  500. # [14:14] <othermaciej> anyway, ability to request specific modifiers could be compatibly added to the basic version
  501. # [14:15] <othermaciej> you could have <command shortcutkey="Control+N n 1"> for control-N, anything with N, anything with 1 or anything whatsoever in that preference order
  502. # [14:15] <Lachy> yeah, that's what I was thinking
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  504. # [14:16] <othermaciej> but I'm not sure you could get into modifiers without encouraging sites to be overly device- and platform-specific
  505. # [14:16] <othermaciej> bedtime for me
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  507. # [14:17] <Lachy> bye
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  546. # [15:52] <zcorpan> funny that apache doesn't have a proper html parser for extracting <title>s: http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/fragment/content-model-flag/
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  559. # [16:16] <Lachy> zcorpan, that's because HTML4 didn't define <title> as a CDATA or RCDATA element
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  563. # [16:25] <zcorpan> Lachy: could be
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  599. # [17:40] <zcorpan> wrt shortcut keys, it might be good to have a way to express the semantics of some more common commands, such as undo, copy, etc, instead of specific keys
  600. # [17:40] <zcorpan> so the ua can provide the platform neutral shortcuts to those commands
  601. # [17:41] <zcorpan> s/neutral/specific/
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  603. # [17:52] <zcorpan> ooh, firefox supports contenteditable now
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  605. # [18:03] <aaronlev> hi Lachy
  606. # [18:03] <aaronlev> Lachy: checkboxtristate was killed a while ago in ARIA, but the publicly available specs haven't been updated
  607. # [18:03] <Lachy> hi
  608. # [18:05] <zcorpan> ...or at least the content attribute, .contentEditable seems to be unsupported
  609. # [18:06] <aaronlev> Lachy: also i sent an email to public-html with a FAQ on ARIA in HTML, to address some concerns i often see raised
  610. # [18:06] <Lachy> ok
  611. # [18:12] <Lachy> I like this "If and when HTML 5+ is ubiquitous and JavaScript websites and toolkits move to that, then eventually ARIA can be deprecated."
  612. # [18:12] <Lachy> at least it seems I was right about ARIA being a short term band-aid solution
  613. # [18:14] <aaronlev> well, i should modify that statement
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  615. # [18:14] <aaronlev> we still need a solution for accessible custom widgets
  616. # [18:15] <aaronlev> like XBL, and it needs to be ubiquitous
  617. # [18:15] <aaronlev> developers always want to make their own widgets
  618. # [18:15] <aaronlev> even when there are perfectly good ones available
  619. # [18:15] <aaronlev> it's just the reality about developers
  620. # [18:15] <aaronlev> buti can see that a better soluition than ARIA would be XBL
  621. # [18:15] <aaronlev> for custom widgets
  622. # [18:17] <aaronlev> having HTML 5 everywhere drastically removes the most common use cases for ARIA
  623. # [18:17] <aaronlev> but not all of the use cases
  624. # [18:17] <aaronlev> and we don't know when HTML 5 will be so ubiquitious that developers mosty move to that for advanced widgets
  625. # [18:17] <aaronlev> could be 5-7 years, if you look at CSS 2
  626. # [18:17] <aaronlev> short term" is not what i would call that exactly
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  628. # [18:21] <zcorpan> what is the status of the DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut events?
  629. # [18:22] <aaronlev> dead afaict
  630. # [18:22] <zcorpan> pity; bubbling focus/blur events would have been useful
  631. # [18:23] <zcorpan> e.g. for having a js implementation of placeholder=""
  632. # [18:23] <aaronlev> zcorpan: it might be impl'd by some browsers, but do you care about anything that doesn't work in IE?
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  634. # [18:26] <aaronlev> Lachy: actually i see that i did say that in the next paragraph
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  637. # [18:40] <zcorpan> aaronlev: yes, e.g. i care about canvas, svg, wf2
  638. # [18:41] <zcorpan> the events seem to be implemented in safari and opera, at least
  639. # [18:42] <aaronlev> i see code for it in firefox, but it looks only impl'd fo xforms
  640. # [18:46] <aaronlev> and i don't see a bug filed for domfocusin
  641. # [18:46] <aaronlev> you could file a bug and see what happens
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  643. # [18:46] <zcorpan> ok
  644. # [18:47] <aaronlev> mentioing briefly that it works in opera and safari, and why it's useful would be alright
  645. # [18:47] <zcorpan> yeah
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  650. # [19:13] <zcorpan> filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=396927
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  653. # [19:21] <zcorpan> hmm, safari doesn't support the .placeholder dom attribute
  654. # [19:22] <zcorpan> makes it hard to check for native support with script
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  658. # [19:36] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i sent that faq in
  659. # [19:37] <aaronlev> w/ proposal
  660. # [19:37] <aaronlev> no responses yet
  661. # [19:38] <hsivonen> aaronlev: looks good
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  668. # [20:01] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I think Safari fires both onfocus/onblur and DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut for all focus changes (could be wrong though)
  669. # [20:01] <othermaciej> zcorpan: placeholder DOM attribute on what?
  670. # [20:02] <othermaciej> zcorpan: oh, reflecting the content attribute
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  673. # [20:05] <zcorpan> othermaciej: ok. i think per the spec, focus and blur should only be fired for html form controls (but firing for any focussable element seems more useful)
  674. # [20:06] <zcorpan> worked around that the placeholder was masked for password fields: http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/js/placeholder-demo.htm
  675. # [20:07] <zcorpan> now there's no difference from webkit's native impl, afaict
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  681. # [20:37] <aaronlev> zcorpan: yeah these days it should be fired for anything focusable, especially with the html5 changes to tabindex
  682. # [20:38] <zcorpan> aaronlev: ok, good :)
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The end :)